I actually quite liked the first book once I'd gotten past the start. It does feel a bit odd that your introduction to the culture is from an outside perspective that views them as an antagonist. If that had come later in the series it would have made a bit more sense but if you're reading the books in order this is your intro to the universe and you're getting an incomplete and negatively biased view of the culture.
I actually quite liked the first book once I'd gotten past the start. It does feel a bit odd that your introduction to the culture is from an outside perspective that views them as an antagonist. If that had come later in the series it would have made a bit more sense but if you're reading the books in order this is your intro to the universe and you're getting an incomplete and negatively biased view of the culture.
yeah like I said, I liked it very much, but it's a fun way to start a series- by using the thing the series is basically about as antagonist and your protagonists as sympathetic.
I think my favorite part of this is the endless word vomit from people decrying Star Trek as having "fallen" to the Left.
How the fuck do you miss at any point that Star Trek is a massively anti-capitalist far-Left civilization? It's literally been that way from the start!
It's not any economic system that we can currently comprehend. It's post scarcity and our current attempt to engage a post scarcity economy is to make NFTs. It's completely evolved beyond a concept of left and right at least with regards to economis systems.
TOS waffles a little bit on whether money exists; they certainly mention pay a lot, whether that's supposed to be taken literally or not. They definitely don't seem to be totally post-scarcity; many of the episodes deal with complications surrounding the sourcing of various raw materials the Federation has growing needs for. By TNG, money is specifically right out and they're done with it. DS9 'reveals' that totally ditching money is more of an ideal than a reality in many parts of Federation space.
In a lot of ways TNG is more idealistic than TOS is.
Speaking of, I'm on like episode 5 of Season 3 of the Original Series, and while yeah, it's mostly kind of bad, I do feel like a lot of what disappoints me about season 3 started somewhere in season 2. The loss of joy, the missing camaraderie of the crew, Kirk just being a selfish prick all the time and only being right because the episode needs him to be by the end of the episode... I think a lot of what I like about this era of Star Trek is more in peoples' heads than it is on the screen. Except the color. The color is always there and always looks lovely.
Edit: Actually I didn't mind this Medusans episode, even if it's the one with that story about Roddenberry trying to shoehorn his own merchandising into the script. The one after it is a bit predictable but it at least has a lot of the main crew's personalities playing off each other... And it looks nice.
BloodySloth on
0
Options
Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
I think my favorite part of this is the endless word vomit from people decrying Star Trek as having "fallen" to the Left.
How the fuck do you miss at any point that Star Trek is a massively anti-capitalist far-Left civilization? It's literally been that way from the start!
It's not any economic system that we can currently comprehend. It's post scarcity and our current attempt to engage a post scarcity economy is to make NFTs. It's completely evolved beyond a concept of left and right at least with regards to economis systems.
I think it's far less a mystery of creating a new type of economy and far more a matter of educating people to the point that they universally accept money as unnecessary. To the best of my knowledge, there's nothing in Federation law that makes money illegal, there's just no point. Whether you choose to spend your life as a painter hermit or as an admiral saving planets, your needs will be met. It would undoubtedly have to be a far-left system, though, as a far-Right equivalent would just be outright fascism or something like Ferengi capitalism.
And there's certainly nothing forcing all humans to be in the Federation or without money. Cassidy runs a freighter despite being a Federation citizen, and she has to worry about things like profit and paying crew and whatnot.
The only specific instance of "money" I can think of for ToS is what's-his-name trying to sell wives to miners of some rare and remote resource.
I think my favorite part of this is the endless word vomit from people decrying Star Trek as having "fallen" to the Left.
How the fuck do you miss at any point that Star Trek is a massively anti-capitalist far-Left civilization? It's literally been that way from the start!
It's not any economic system that we can currently comprehend. It's post scarcity and our current attempt to engage a post scarcity economy is to make NFTs. It's completely evolved beyond a concept of left and right at least with regards to economis systems.
I think it's far less a mystery of creating a new type of economy and far more a matter of educating people to the point that they universally accept money as unnecessary. To the best of my knowledge, there's nothing in Federation law that makes money illegal, there's just no point. Whether you choose to spend your life as a painter hermit or as an admiral saving planets, your needs will be met. It would undoubtedly have to be a far-left system, though, as a far-Right equivalent would just be outright fascism or something like Ferengi capitalism.
And there's certainly nothing forcing all humans to be in the Federation or without money. Cassidy runs a freighter despite being a Federation citizen, and she has to worry about things like profit and paying crew and whatnot.
The only specific instance of "money" I can think of for ToS is what's-his-name trying to sell wives to miners of some rare and remote resource.
Harcourt Fenton Mudd, and dilithium. Which is essential for warp travel (and M/AM reactors in general) and seldom appears in abundance/minable form on pleasant habitable planets.
Commander Zoom on
0
Options
MonwynApathy's a tragedy, and boredom is a crime.A little bit of everything, all of the time.Registered Userregular
I started with it and liked it, but I already had 2 more books ready and just continued on after. Maybe I wouldn't have as much if I had stopped after it for a while, I don't know.
The books aren't really chronological, only "consider phlebas" should be read before "look to windward".
Use of Weapons should be read before Surface Detail, IMO.
I started with it and liked it, but I already had 2 more books ready and just continued on after. Maybe I wouldn't have as much if I had stopped after it for a while, I don't know.
The books aren't really chronological, only "consider phlebas" should be read before "look to windward".
Use of Weapons should be read before Surface Detail, IMO.
And even in these two instances the connections are extremely light, the importance of them following each other is more thematic really.
My recommendation to most people starting to read the Culture books is Player of Games -> Excession but that's almost exclusively because that's how I did it and it does the best job of introducing you to what the Culture is like internally from characters who actually live there, and gives you a better idea of what Minds are really like.
Anyway, every time you guys mention the Culture in the Star Trek thread I grow in power.
I started with it and liked it, but I already had 2 more books ready and just continued on after. Maybe I wouldn't have as much if I had stopped after it for a while, I don't know.
The books aren't really chronological, only "consider phlebas" should be read before "look to windward".
Use of Weapons should be read before Surface Detail, IMO.
And even in these two instances the connections are extremely light, the importance of them following each other is more thematic really.
My recommendation to most people starting to read the Culture books is Player of Games -> Excession but that's almost exclusively because that's how I did it and it does the best job of introducing you to what the Culture is like internally from characters who actually live there, and gives you a better idea of what Minds are really like.
Anyway, every time you guys mention the Culture in the Star Trek thread I grow in power.
soon, nothing will be able to escape your gravitas well
I think my favorite part of this is the endless word vomit from people decrying Star Trek as having "fallen" to the Left.
How the fuck do you miss at any point that Star Trek is a massively anti-capitalist far-Left civilization? It's literally been that way from the start!
It's not any economic system that we can currently comprehend. It's post scarcity and our current attempt to engage a post scarcity economy is to make NFTs. It's completely evolved beyond a concept of left and right at least with regards to economis systems.
I think it's far less a mystery of creating a new type of economy and far more a matter of educating people to the point that they universally accept money as unnecessary. To the best of my knowledge, there's nothing in Federation law that makes money illegal, there's just no point. Whether you choose to spend your life as a painter hermit or as an admiral saving planets, your needs will be met. It would undoubtedly have to be a far-left system, though, as a far-Right equivalent would just be outright fascism or something like Ferengi capitalism.
And there's certainly nothing forcing all humans to be in the Federation or without money. Cassidy runs a freighter despite being a Federation citizen, and she has to worry about things like profit and paying crew and whatnot.
The only specific instance of "money" I can think of for ToS is what's-his-name trying to sell wives to miners of some rare and remote resource.
I would imagine it's the same as the culture re: if you want something big that requires other people
Like if you want your own spaceship you just need to convince the federation to give you a spaceship, why do you need it, what benefit to the federation will there be, etc. It's less clear how recreation works out but I would imagine almost anything you could want would just be given to you and edge cases there are probably libertarians who are angry that they can't own 2 holodecks because the federation supply office just says "but you already own a holodeck..."
I think my favorite part of this is the endless word vomit from people decrying Star Trek as having "fallen" to the Left.
How the fuck do you miss at any point that Star Trek is a massively anti-capitalist far-Left civilization? It's literally been that way from the start!
It's not any economic system that we can currently comprehend. It's post scarcity and our current attempt to engage a post scarcity economy is to make NFTs. It's completely evolved beyond a concept of left and right at least with regards to economis systems.
I think it's far less a mystery of creating a new type of economy and far more a matter of educating people to the point that they universally accept money as unnecessary. To the best of my knowledge, there's nothing in Federation law that makes money illegal, there's just no point. Whether you choose to spend your life as a painter hermit or as an admiral saving planets, your needs will be met. It would undoubtedly have to be a far-left system, though, as a far-Right equivalent would just be outright fascism or something like Ferengi capitalism.
And there's certainly nothing forcing all humans to be in the Federation or without money. Cassidy runs a freighter despite being a Federation citizen, and she has to worry about things like profit and paying crew and whatnot.
The only specific instance of "money" I can think of for ToS is what's-his-name trying to sell wives to miners of some rare and remote resource.
I would imagine it's the same as the culture re: if you want something big that requires other people
Like if you want your own spaceship you just need to convince the federation to give you a spaceship, why do you need it, what benefit to the federation will there be, etc. It's less clear how recreation works out but I would imagine almost anything you could want would just be given to you and edge cases there are probably libertarians who are angry that they can't own 2 holodecks because the federation supply office just says "but you already own a holodeck..."
ah so you have to wait in line for five years to get a flying Lada just to be told "but Comrade, we have evolved beyond the need for private transportation"
I think my favorite part of this is the endless word vomit from people decrying Star Trek as having "fallen" to the Left.
How the fuck do you miss at any point that Star Trek is a massively anti-capitalist far-Left civilization? It's literally been that way from the start!
It's not any economic system that we can currently comprehend. It's post scarcity and our current attempt to engage a post scarcity economy is to make NFTs. It's completely evolved beyond a concept of left and right at least with regards to economis systems.
I think it's far less a mystery of creating a new type of economy and far more a matter of educating people to the point that they universally accept money as unnecessary. To the best of my knowledge, there's nothing in Federation law that makes money illegal, there's just no point. Whether you choose to spend your life as a painter hermit or as an admiral saving planets, your needs will be met. It would undoubtedly have to be a far-left system, though, as a far-Right equivalent would just be outright fascism or something like Ferengi capitalism.
And there's certainly nothing forcing all humans to be in the Federation or without money. Cassidy runs a freighter despite being a Federation citizen, and she has to worry about things like profit and paying crew and whatnot.
The only specific instance of "money" I can think of for ToS is what's-his-name trying to sell wives to miners of some rare and remote resource.
I would imagine it's the same as the culture re: if you want something big that requires other people
Like if you want your own spaceship you just need to convince the federation to give you a spaceship, why do you need it, what benefit to the federation will there be, etc. It's less clear how recreation works out but I would imagine almost anything you could want would just be given to you and edge cases there are probably libertarians who are angry that they can't own 2 holodecks because the federation supply office just says "but you already own a holodeck..."
ah so you have to wait in line for five years to get a flying Lada just to be told "but Comrade, we have evolved beyond the need for private transportation"
The difference between the culture and the federation here is that while the federation is a strict governmental body, the culture is just a loose association of sapient minds and people, so in the culture's version of this it's more like you ask some friends (or for grander projects you go on a big political campaign) and drum up support for this awesome idea you have until one day a Mind/Minds who have the resources/capabilities you need gets in contact with you and is like "I want to help you do this thing".
Though of course in the Culture you can't really have a ship or a house exactly because these things are generally either sentient themselves or a component of a larger sentient entity so it's more like you're friends with a ship or a house or what have you that doesn't mind you living in/using it.
For the federation's case, we're led to believe that they have solved many of the social and logistical issues of allocation of resources through a government body, which isn't completely unbelievable but not completely believable either. They do seem to do a good enough job of saying "the system the federation has created isn't perfect but is hell of a lot better than what modern humans have". Like maybe you have to go through some bureaucratic hell to get your pleasure ship but at least you're 100% guaranteed to be clothed and fed at the end of the day.
+4
Options
Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
I think my favorite part of this is the endless word vomit from people decrying Star Trek as having "fallen" to the Left.
How the fuck do you miss at any point that Star Trek is a massively anti-capitalist far-Left civilization? It's literally been that way from the start!
It's not any economic system that we can currently comprehend. It's post scarcity and our current attempt to engage a post scarcity economy is to make NFTs. It's completely evolved beyond a concept of left and right at least with regards to economis systems.
I think it's far less a mystery of creating a new type of economy and far more a matter of educating people to the point that they universally accept money as unnecessary. To the best of my knowledge, there's nothing in Federation law that makes money illegal, there's just no point. Whether you choose to spend your life as a painter hermit or as an admiral saving planets, your needs will be met. It would undoubtedly have to be a far-left system, though, as a far-Right equivalent would just be outright fascism or something like Ferengi capitalism.
And there's certainly nothing forcing all humans to be in the Federation or without money. Cassidy runs a freighter despite being a Federation citizen, and she has to worry about things like profit and paying crew and whatnot.
The only specific instance of "money" I can think of for ToS is what's-his-name trying to sell wives to miners of some rare and remote resource.
I would imagine it's the same as the culture re: if you want something big that requires other people
Like if you want your own spaceship you just need to convince the federation to give you a spaceship, why do you need it, what benefit to the federation will there be, etc. It's less clear how recreation works out but I would imagine almost anything you could want would just be given to you and edge cases there are probably libertarians who are angry that they can't own 2 holodecks because the federation supply office just says "but you already own a holodeck..."
ah so you have to wait in line for five years to get a flying Lada just to be told "but Comrade, we have evolved beyond the need for private transportation"
The only shortage of ships there ever seems to really be is actual Starfleet ships.Otherwise, the situation really is just request a ship that meets your needs and the Federation goes "okay". The Federation seems to make ships for whatever it needs anyway so it's like they expect to need 500 ships of type X, build them all, and then hand them out when people ask for them. If you're just taking a trip to a destination, you do the Culture thing and get a spot on a ship or series of ships headed in that direction, then do the same for the way back.
I mean, how many times do we see random scientists flying around alone or with a crew in a Federation ship? They aren't paying for the ship or the equipment, they're literally just out doing science stuff with what the Federation gives them.
I think my favorite part of this is the endless word vomit from people decrying Star Trek as having "fallen" to the Left.
How the fuck do you miss at any point that Star Trek is a massively anti-capitalist far-Left civilization? It's literally been that way from the start!
It's not any economic system that we can currently comprehend. It's post scarcity and our current attempt to engage a post scarcity economy is to make NFTs. It's completely evolved beyond a concept of left and right at least with regards to economis systems.
I think it's far less a mystery of creating a new type of economy and far more a matter of educating people to the point that they universally accept money as unnecessary. To the best of my knowledge, there's nothing in Federation law that makes money illegal, there's just no point. Whether you choose to spend your life as a painter hermit or as an admiral saving planets, your needs will be met. It would undoubtedly have to be a far-left system, though, as a far-Right equivalent would just be outright fascism or something like Ferengi capitalism.
And there's certainly nothing forcing all humans to be in the Federation or without money. Cassidy runs a freighter despite being a Federation citizen, and she has to worry about things like profit and paying crew and whatnot.
The only specific instance of "money" I can think of for ToS is what's-his-name trying to sell wives to miners of some rare and remote resource.
I would imagine it's the same as the culture re: if you want something big that requires other people
Like if you want your own spaceship you just need to convince the federation to give you a spaceship, why do you need it, what benefit to the federation will there be, etc. It's less clear how recreation works out but I would imagine almost anything you could want would just be given to you and edge cases there are probably libertarians who are angry that they can't own 2 holodecks because the federation supply office just says "but you already own a holodeck..."
ah so you have to wait in line for five years to get a flying Lada just to be told "but Comrade, we have evolved beyond the need for private transportation"
The difference between the culture and the federation here is that while the federation is a strict governmental body, the culture is just a loose association of sapient minds and people, so in the culture's version of this it's more like you ask some friends (or for grander projects you go on a big political campaign) and drum up support for this awesome idea you have until one day a Mind/Minds who have the resources/capabilities you need gets in contact with you and is like "I want to help you do this thing".
Though of course in the Culture you can't really have a ship or a house exactly because these things are generally either sentient themselves or a component of a larger sentient entity so it's more like you're friends with a ship or a house or what have you that doesn't mind you living in/using it.
For the federation's case, we're led to believe that they have solved many of the social and logistical issues of allocation of resources through a government body, which isn't completely unbelievable but not completely believable either. They do seem to do a good enough job of saying "the system the federation has created isn't perfect but is hell of a lot better than what modern humans have". Like maybe you have to go through some bureaucratic hell to get your pleasure ship but at least you're 100% guaranteed to be clothed and fed at the end of the day.
Yeah, people don't really "own" stuff in the culture because they don't need to. There's enough space and stuff for everyone to have like a continent to themselves, if they want to, everything you wish for either already exists or can be made almost instantly, and the stuff that is made is so durable it basically lasts forever or until it's reclaimed and used for something else. Everyone can live to their fullest potential, or not, it's their own life, but you'll find absolute support in all of culture society to do so, mentally, socially and materially.
And ships are people, but there's so many of them you can basically wish for anywhere to go and find one to take you there, and in style, too. And I mean you could probably get a capable ship to your own to do whatever, too. All you'd have to do is get the idea out and a ship-building capable person, and by that I mean a ship or "station" (if calling an orbital with more living space than a sizeable number of earths combined a station makes sense) will probably build you one for fun.
As for "space lada", the society is basically more paradise than the biblical imaginations of the place. Every imaginable luxury is basically available as a standard, your bodies don't age unless you want to, you can switch genders with a thought to your glands, or even turn into something else than a humanoid entirely if you want, you can't even die by accident because medicine is extremely advanced, teleportation exists, and even if a culture citizen gets hurt, they can survive stuff like decapitation through their altered physiology until a new body is grown - Or even use a backup of their brain if by some chance their mind gets destroyed.
Basically, you probably couldn't even imagine the outrageous kind of luxury that is already an old hat and yesterday's news in the culture.
A culture GSV is a society on the size of planet earth, contains all knowledge of all the culture, is able enough to care for and understand each of its billions of inhabitants like the closest personal friend and parent and nurture them to become so well rounded and complete the crew of Picard's USS enterprise would look closer to 2021 earth humans than culture citizens, can, and will, fulfill every reasonable and almost all unreasonable wishes in its power, and while doing all that, dreams of fully realized whole universes with, say, different natural constants and lives there, for fun.
Plus, the culture consists of hundreds of thousands of these GSVs, which are just the biggest "ships", with several tiers smaller craft in even bigger numbers, from half that size, down to basically big family sized ones.
And somehow, this all is also extremely interesting to read about in a book.
"fullest potential" doesn't mean everyone needs to be a scientist, either.
Maybe your fullest potential is living a 100 year long orgy, becoming a tree, live in and explore a non-culture society, surf on lava, play an instrument, become the best virtual gamer ever, or even all of those together.
I should reread the culture books, it's been a few years..
Just found out that production of the Consider Phelbas series was cancelled last summer, down to the Banks Estate feeling that 'it wasn't the right time'.
I can see it, must be hard to see the work of your late husband being adapted by someone else when that was the thing that brought you together.
Disappointed though, with the resurgence of Star wars setting out a baseline for "space adventures" I was definitely hoping for more high concept TV series like this to push the 'overton window of acceptable scifi' a little bit further towards the wilder, speculative fringes
I still have a desire to write a Player of Games spec script. Not because I think I'd make one that was any good, so much as just because I think the world deserves a Player of Games movie or mini-series dammit.
+3
Options
That_GuyI don't wanna be that guyRegistered Userregular
Just found out that production of the Consider Phelbas series was cancelled last summer, down to the Banks Estate feeling that 'it wasn't the right time'.
I can see it, must be hard to see the work of your late husband being adapted by someone else when that was the thing that brought you together.
Disappointed though, with the resurgence of Star wars setting out a baseline for "space adventures" I was definitely hoping for more high concept TV series like this to push the 'overton window of acceptable scifi' a little bit further towards the wilder, speculative fringes
That does not surprise me. Phlebas would have needed a MASSIVE budget to come anywhere close to the book. Not only do giant armored quadrupeds show up quote frequently, you have the entire action sequence where The Culture blows up an entire moon during a card game. The sequence on the cruise ship could end up eating up the entire budget alone.
Player of Games on the other hand has Aliens that could be played by skinny guys in makeup. Most of the book takes place in relatively small sets and with minimal effects needed. The big set piece is just a castle getting consumed in a firestorm. I think it could all be easily done on a budget.
That_GuyI don't wanna be that guyRegistered Userregular
edited April 2021
I want Jeffrey Wright (from Westworld) to play Jernau Morat Gurgeh. He was exactly who I was picturing in my head when I first started listening to Player of Games.
I'd love for one show set in the future to have someone obsessed with culture from between now and then. They're always either into modern stuff or, well, 'modern' stuff for the setting.
Why is there so much nerd book talk in the cool Star Trek thread?
Nerds!
What kind of fictional books are popular in the 24th century? What kind of sci-fi would Wesley Crusher read?
It's always possible to imagine new currently-impossible technologies. The Federation could have sci-fi stories set in a future where the entire galaxy is reachable with super-warp speed or a network of artificial stable wormholes. Or where other galaxies or alternate-universe Milky Ways are being contacted or colonized. They might also have "Atlantis" style stories discovering lost Preservers or Iconian cities, possibly with pockets of their civilization intact.
They probably have Zombies variants with bio-weapons or the Borg. And alternate-history stories where a small struggling Federation is trying to find its place in an Alpha Quadrant filled by the Klingons, Romulans, Tholians, etc.
I think my favorite part of this is the endless word vomit from people decrying Star Trek as having "fallen" to the Left.
How the fuck do you miss at any point that Star Trek is a massively anti-capitalist far-Left civilization? It's literally been that way from the start!
It's not any economic system that we can currently comprehend. It's post scarcity and our current attempt to engage a post scarcity economy is to make NFTs. It's completely evolved beyond a concept of left and right at least with regards to economis systems.
I think it's far less a mystery of creating a new type of economy and far more a matter of educating people to the point that they universally accept money as unnecessary. To the best of my knowledge, there's nothing in Federation law that makes money illegal, there's just no point. Whether you choose to spend your life as a painter hermit or as an admiral saving planets, your needs will be met. It would undoubtedly have to be a far-left system, though, as a far-Right equivalent would just be outright fascism or something like Ferengi capitalism.
And there's certainly nothing forcing all humans to be in the Federation or without money. Cassidy runs a freighter despite being a Federation citizen, and she has to worry about things like profit and paying crew and whatnot.
The only specific instance of "money" I can think of for ToS is what's-his-name trying to sell wives to miners of some rare and remote resource.
I would imagine it's the same as the culture re: if you want something big that requires other people
Like if you want your own spaceship you just need to convince the federation to give you a spaceship, why do you need it, what benefit to the federation will there be, etc. It's less clear how recreation works out but I would imagine almost anything you could want would just be given to you and edge cases there are probably libertarians who are angry that they can't own 2 holodecks because the federation supply office just says "but you already own a holodeck..."
ah so you have to wait in line for five years to get a flying Lada just to be told "but Comrade, we have evolved beyond the need for private transportation"
The difference between the culture and the federation here is that while the federation is a strict governmental body, the culture is just a loose association of sapient minds and people, so in the culture's version of this it's more like you ask some friends (or for grander projects you go on a big political campaign) and drum up support for this awesome idea you have until one day a Mind/Minds who have the resources/capabilities you need gets in contact with you and is like "I want to help you do this thing".
Though of course in the Culture you can't really have a ship or a house exactly because these things are generally either sentient themselves or a component of a larger sentient entity so it's more like you're friends with a ship or a house or what have you that doesn't mind you living in/using it.
For the federation's case, we're led to believe that they have solved many of the social and logistical issues of allocation of resources through a government body, which isn't completely unbelievable but not completely believable either. They do seem to do a good enough job of saying "the system the federation has created isn't perfect but is hell of a lot better than what modern humans have". Like maybe you have to go through some bureaucratic hell to get your pleasure ship but at least you're 100% guaranteed to be clothed and fed at the end of the day.
Yeah I'd imagine there's a wait list since they don't have a true lack of scarcity, beyond needs and basic recreation for the entire Federation. Obviously a colony on the edge of Federation space is going to have a hard time getting a pleasure dome installed, but they will probably eventually get it - they just have to file the paperwork
as to the culture, the way they do things is literally just convincing people or a mind like you say, but since minds actually get anxiety when the humans under their care are chronically unhappy, it's likely that if nothing else will make you happy, your orbital mind will probably build you your own continent to shut you up (like there's a single individual who the culture couldnt find a place for in Excession and it seems like multiple minds collaborated on a solution because this seemed like a failure state to them)
If I have an opportunity to quote a culture book I will so
Hamin obviously found it hard to believe the Culture really did do without money. 'But what if I do want something unreasonable?'
'What?'
'My own planet?' Hamin wheezed with laughter.
'How can you own a planet?' Gurgeh shook his head.
'But supposing I wanted one?'
'I suppose if you found an unoccupied one you could land without anybody becoming annoyed… perhaps that would work. But how would you stop other people landing there too?'
'Could I not buy a fleet of warships?'
'All our ships are sentient. You could certainly try telling a ship what to do… but I don't think you'd get very far.'
'Your ships think they're sentient!' Hamin chuckled.
Hamin found the Culture's sexual mores even more fascinating. He was at once delighted and outraged that the Culture regarded homosexuality, incest, sex-changing, hermaphrodicy and sexual characteristic alteration as just something else people did, like going on a cruise or changing their hair-style.
Hamin thought this must take all the fun out of things. Didn't the Culture forbid anything?
Gurgeh attempted to explain there were no written laws, but almost no crime anyway. There was the occasional crime of passion (as Hamin chose to call it), but little else. It was difficult to get away with anything anyway, when everybody had a terminal, but there were very few motives left, too.
'But if someone kills somebody else?'
Gurgeh shrugged. 'They're slap-droned.'
'Ah! This sounds more like it. What does this drone do?'
'Follows you around and makes sure you never do it again.'
'Is that all?'
'What more do you want? Social death, Hamin; you don't get invited to too many parties.'
if The Culture has a currency, it is entirely a social currency, and from what Nog showed us, the Federation is basically the same way (the only reason his barter chain worked is because he got the right people to sign the right forms for him - clearly people who are friends with those people can get things faster)
They probably have Zombies variants with bio-weapons or the Borg.
Snipped this bit out to say, I doubt it. Zombies have, IMO, always been a metaphor or way of processing fears and anxieties about social collapse, the end of empires and the resulting state of anarchy. The Federation, at least in the mid to late 24th, appears to be much too safe and secure for that sort of thing to get much traction in the zeitgeist. There might be stuff about the actual Borg, but I wonder if that wouldn't cross the "too real" line.
They probably have Zombies variants with bio-weapons or the Borg.
Snipped this bit out to say, I doubt it. Zombies have, IMO, always been a metaphor or way of processing fears and anxieties about social collapse, the end of empires and the resulting state of anarchy. The Federation, at least in the mid to late 24th, appears to be much too safe and secure for that sort of thing to get much traction in the zeitgeist. There might be stuff about the actual Borg, but I wonder if that wouldn't cross the "too real" line.
Maybe not zombies specifically as we think of zombies but as long as death is a thing people fear and are uncomfortable with society will probably still produce horror stories about dead things doing what dead things aren't meant to. Vulcan vampires. Romulan revenants. Starships floating, dead in the space between stars, open to vacuum, their crews only awaiting a fresh source of radiation to stir their frozen corpses into horrible motion.
Every culture in history has horror stories about un-death. It's just the 'self-replicating, unintelligent, animate dead hordes' type of zombie that's specific to the modern zeitgeist.
I do wonder, though, whether they'd have positive speculative fiction about, like, "What if the Borg...but good?" or similar.
They probably have Zombies variants with bio-weapons or the Borg.
Snipped this bit out to say, I doubt it. Zombies have, IMO, always been a metaphor or way of processing fears and anxieties about social collapse, the end of empires and the resulting state of anarchy. The Federation, at least in the mid to late 24th, appears to be much too safe and secure for that sort of thing to get much traction in the zeitgeist. There might be stuff about the actual Borg, but I wonder if that wouldn't cross the "too real" line.
I don't know, I think that any Federation person who has even a passing interest in history will see that culture collapse is endemic to cultures, and the fear of "What if that, but us (or me)?" could come up in the form of a zombie holonovel.
We know that, at least for the star fleet admiralty, fears about social collapse were strong enough during the Dominion war for them to try and implement martial law on Earth in response to the possibility of Founder infiltration. The Federation civilians saw their Star Fleet get it's teeth kicked in by the Borg at Wolf 359, then by the Dominion a few years later, then the Borg again when a Cube got close enough to launch a time sphere back into history.
Maybe pre-TNG the thought of collapse would be an alien one, rendering Zombies somewhat moot, but it's likely to be on people's minds post Borg/Dominion/Romulus/Synth assault. It's got to be abundantly clear how dangerous the galaxy is, and how wobbly the pillar that the Federation sits on actually is.
Also, "science experiment gets out of hand" and "colony in the middle of nowhere has bad thing happen" are kind of reoccurring themes in Star Trek. A zombie movie in the Federation probably starts with "so, this research output was studying this weird fungus...".
Also, "science experiment gets out of hand" and "colony in the middle of nowhere has bad thing happen" are kind of reoccurring themes in Star Trek. A zombie movie in the Federation probably starts with "so, this research output was studying this weird fungus...".
so it's not so much SCi-fi as "that thing that happened last week"
Posts
yeah like I said, I liked it very much, but it's a fun way to start a series- by using the thing the series is basically about as antagonist and your protagonists as sympathetic.
It's not any economic system that we can currently comprehend. It's post scarcity and our current attempt to engage a post scarcity economy is to make NFTs. It's completely evolved beyond a concept of left and right at least with regards to economis systems.
In a lot of ways TNG is more idealistic than TOS is.
Speaking of, I'm on like episode 5 of Season 3 of the Original Series, and while yeah, it's mostly kind of bad, I do feel like a lot of what disappoints me about season 3 started somewhere in season 2. The loss of joy, the missing camaraderie of the crew, Kirk just being a selfish prick all the time and only being right because the episode needs him to be by the end of the episode... I think a lot of what I like about this era of Star Trek is more in peoples' heads than it is on the screen. Except the color. The color is always there and always looks lovely.
Edit: Actually I didn't mind this Medusans episode, even if it's the one with that story about Roddenberry trying to shoehorn his own merchandising into the script. The one after it is a bit predictable but it at least has a lot of the main crew's personalities playing off each other... And it looks nice.
I think it's far less a mystery of creating a new type of economy and far more a matter of educating people to the point that they universally accept money as unnecessary. To the best of my knowledge, there's nothing in Federation law that makes money illegal, there's just no point. Whether you choose to spend your life as a painter hermit or as an admiral saving planets, your needs will be met. It would undoubtedly have to be a far-left system, though, as a far-Right equivalent would just be outright fascism or something like Ferengi capitalism.
And there's certainly nothing forcing all humans to be in the Federation or without money. Cassidy runs a freighter despite being a Federation citizen, and she has to worry about things like profit and paying crew and whatnot.
The only specific instance of "money" I can think of for ToS is what's-his-name trying to sell wives to miners of some rare and remote resource.
Harcourt Fenton Mudd, and dilithium. Which is essential for warp travel (and M/AM reactors in general) and seldom appears in abundance/minable form on pleasant habitable planets.
Use of Weapons should be read before Surface Detail, IMO.
And even in these two instances the connections are extremely light, the importance of them following each other is more thematic really.
My recommendation to most people starting to read the Culture books is Player of Games -> Excession but that's almost exclusively because that's how I did it and it does the best job of introducing you to what the Culture is like internally from characters who actually live there, and gives you a better idea of what Minds are really like.
Anyway, every time you guys mention the Culture in the Star Trek thread I grow in power.
soon, nothing will be able to escape your gravitas well
I would imagine it's the same as the culture re: if you want something big that requires other people
Like if you want your own spaceship you just need to convince the federation to give you a spaceship, why do you need it, what benefit to the federation will there be, etc. It's less clear how recreation works out but I would imagine almost anything you could want would just be given to you and edge cases there are probably libertarians who are angry that they can't own 2 holodecks because the federation supply office just says "but you already own a holodeck..."
ah so you have to wait in line for five years to get a flying Lada just to be told "but Comrade, we have evolved beyond the need for private transportation"
The difference between the culture and the federation here is that while the federation is a strict governmental body, the culture is just a loose association of sapient minds and people, so in the culture's version of this it's more like you ask some friends (or for grander projects you go on a big political campaign) and drum up support for this awesome idea you have until one day a Mind/Minds who have the resources/capabilities you need gets in contact with you and is like "I want to help you do this thing".
Though of course in the Culture you can't really have a ship or a house exactly because these things are generally either sentient themselves or a component of a larger sentient entity so it's more like you're friends with a ship or a house or what have you that doesn't mind you living in/using it.
For the federation's case, we're led to believe that they have solved many of the social and logistical issues of allocation of resources through a government body, which isn't completely unbelievable but not completely believable either. They do seem to do a good enough job of saying "the system the federation has created isn't perfect but is hell of a lot better than what modern humans have". Like maybe you have to go through some bureaucratic hell to get your pleasure ship but at least you're 100% guaranteed to be clothed and fed at the end of the day.
The only shortage of ships there ever seems to really be is actual Starfleet ships.Otherwise, the situation really is just request a ship that meets your needs and the Federation goes "okay". The Federation seems to make ships for whatever it needs anyway so it's like they expect to need 500 ships of type X, build them all, and then hand them out when people ask for them. If you're just taking a trip to a destination, you do the Culture thing and get a spot on a ship or series of ships headed in that direction, then do the same for the way back.
I mean, how many times do we see random scientists flying around alone or with a crew in a Federation ship? They aren't paying for the ship or the equipment, they're literally just out doing science stuff with what the Federation gives them.
Yeah, people don't really "own" stuff in the culture because they don't need to. There's enough space and stuff for everyone to have like a continent to themselves, if they want to, everything you wish for either already exists or can be made almost instantly, and the stuff that is made is so durable it basically lasts forever or until it's reclaimed and used for something else. Everyone can live to their fullest potential, or not, it's their own life, but you'll find absolute support in all of culture society to do so, mentally, socially and materially.
And ships are people, but there's so many of them you can basically wish for anywhere to go and find one to take you there, and in style, too. And I mean you could probably get a capable ship to your own to do whatever, too. All you'd have to do is get the idea out and a ship-building capable person, and by that I mean a ship or "station" (if calling an orbital with more living space than a sizeable number of earths combined a station makes sense) will probably build you one for fun.
As for "space lada", the society is basically more paradise than the biblical imaginations of the place. Every imaginable luxury is basically available as a standard, your bodies don't age unless you want to, you can switch genders with a thought to your glands, or even turn into something else than a humanoid entirely if you want, you can't even die by accident because medicine is extremely advanced, teleportation exists, and even if a culture citizen gets hurt, they can survive stuff like decapitation through their altered physiology until a new body is grown - Or even use a backup of their brain if by some chance their mind gets destroyed.
Basically, you probably couldn't even imagine the outrageous kind of luxury that is already an old hat and yesterday's news in the culture.
A culture GSV is a society on the size of planet earth, contains all knowledge of all the culture, is able enough to care for and understand each of its billions of inhabitants like the closest personal friend and parent and nurture them to become so well rounded and complete the crew of Picard's USS enterprise would look closer to 2021 earth humans than culture citizens, can, and will, fulfill every reasonable and almost all unreasonable wishes in its power, and while doing all that, dreams of fully realized whole universes with, say, different natural constants and lives there, for fun.
Plus, the culture consists of hundreds of thousands of these GSVs, which are just the biggest "ships", with several tiers smaller craft in even bigger numbers, from half that size, down to basically big family sized ones.
And somehow, this all is also extremely interesting to read about in a book.
Maybe your fullest potential is living a 100 year long orgy, becoming a tree, live in and explore a non-culture society, surf on lava, play an instrument, become the best virtual gamer ever, or even all of those together.
I should reread the culture books, it's been a few years..
I can see it, must be hard to see the work of your late husband being adapted by someone else when that was the thing that brought you together.
Disappointed though, with the resurgence of Star wars setting out a baseline for "space adventures" I was definitely hoping for more high concept TV series like this to push the 'overton window of acceptable scifi' a little bit further towards the wilder, speculative fringes
That does not surprise me. Phlebas would have needed a MASSIVE budget to come anywhere close to the book. Not only do giant armored quadrupeds show up quote frequently, you have the entire action sequence where The Culture blows up an entire moon during a card game. The sequence on the cruise ship could end up eating up the entire budget alone.
Player of Games on the other hand has Aliens that could be played by skinny guys in makeup. Most of the book takes place in relatively small sets and with minimal effects needed. The big set piece is just a castle getting consumed in a firestorm. I think it could all be easily done on a budget.
Nerds!
What kind of fictional books are popular in the 24th century? What kind of sci-fi would Wesley Crusher read?
well, he's a massive nerd and the future is full of future hipsters so probably H. G. Wells.
It's always possible to imagine new currently-impossible technologies. The Federation could have sci-fi stories set in a future where the entire galaxy is reachable with super-warp speed or a network of artificial stable wormholes. Or where other galaxies or alternate-universe Milky Ways are being contacted or colonized. They might also have "Atlantis" style stories discovering lost Preservers or Iconian cities, possibly with pockets of their civilization intact.
They probably have Zombies variants with bio-weapons or the Borg. And alternate-history stories where a small struggling Federation is trying to find its place in an Alpha Quadrant filled by the Klingons, Romulans, Tholians, etc.
it's also set in a post Star Trek/Foundation future
Yeah I'd imagine there's a wait list since they don't have a true lack of scarcity, beyond needs and basic recreation for the entire Federation. Obviously a colony on the edge of Federation space is going to have a hard time getting a pleasure dome installed, but they will probably eventually get it - they just have to file the paperwork
as to the culture, the way they do things is literally just convincing people or a mind like you say, but since minds actually get anxiety when the humans under their care are chronically unhappy, it's likely that if nothing else will make you happy, your orbital mind will probably build you your own continent to shut you up (like there's a single individual who the culture couldnt find a place for in Excession and it seems like multiple minds collaborated on a solution because this seemed like a failure state to them)
If I have an opportunity to quote a culture book I will so
if The Culture has a currency, it is entirely a social currency, and from what Nog showed us, the Federation is basically the same way (the only reason his barter chain worked is because he got the right people to sign the right forms for him - clearly people who are friends with those people can get things faster)
the federation definitely has popular holonovels about Khan ravishing the protagonist after proving his superiority in all manner of contests
To say nothing of the Vulcan fetishists.
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Vulcan_Love_Slave
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Vulcan_Love_Slave,_Part_II:_The_Revenge
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Vulcan_Love_Slave,_Volume_III
Snipped this bit out to say, I doubt it. Zombies have, IMO, always been a metaphor or way of processing fears and anxieties about social collapse, the end of empires and the resulting state of anarchy. The Federation, at least in the mid to late 24th, appears to be much too safe and secure for that sort of thing to get much traction in the zeitgeist. There might be stuff about the actual Borg, but I wonder if that wouldn't cross the "too real" line.
Maybe not zombies specifically as we think of zombies but as long as death is a thing people fear and are uncomfortable with society will probably still produce horror stories about dead things doing what dead things aren't meant to. Vulcan vampires. Romulan revenants. Starships floating, dead in the space between stars, open to vacuum, their crews only awaiting a fresh source of radiation to stir their frozen corpses into horrible motion.
Every culture in history has horror stories about un-death. It's just the 'self-replicating, unintelligent, animate dead hordes' type of zombie that's specific to the modern zeitgeist.
I do wonder, though, whether they'd have positive speculative fiction about, like, "What if the Borg...but good?" or similar.
sure, if you want to get your teeth knocked out by Sisco...
I don't know, I think that any Federation person who has even a passing interest in history will see that culture collapse is endemic to cultures, and the fear of "What if that, but us (or me)?" could come up in the form of a zombie holonovel.
We know that, at least for the star fleet admiralty, fears about social collapse were strong enough during the Dominion war for them to try and implement martial law on Earth in response to the possibility of Founder infiltration. The Federation civilians saw their Star Fleet get it's teeth kicked in by the Borg at Wolf 359, then by the Dominion a few years later, then the Borg again when a Cube got close enough to launch a time sphere back into history.
Maybe pre-TNG the thought of collapse would be an alien one, rendering Zombies somewhat moot, but it's likely to be on people's minds post Borg/Dominion/Romulus/Synth assault. It's got to be abundantly clear how dangerous the galaxy is, and how wobbly the pillar that the Federation sits on actually is.
so it's not so much SCi-fi as "that thing that happened last week"