It's posturing to send a signal to China, nobody expects an actual war to break out. It's the same reason nobody's going to do the same to Russia. A big reason for the US to get China to back down is to show it, and its allies, are more than able to make a war less palatable is by physically showing fucking around isn't worth it. Then this goes back to soft power bullshit, which everyone prefers.
Also, is an unfortunate but needed answer to China's ridiculous territorial claims.
Why do we need anti personel mines to stop the Chinese from claiming a bunch of unoccupied atolls and sand bars?
Why are we being super charitable with China's land grabs here?
It's posturing to send a signal to China, nobody expects an actual war to break out. It's the same reason nobody's going to do the same to Russia. A big reason for the US to get China to back down is to show it, and its allies, are more than able to make a war less palatable is by physically showing fucking around isn't worth it. Then this goes back to soft power bullshit, which everyone prefers.
Also, is an unfortunate but needed answer to China's ridiculous territorial claims.
Why do we need anti personel mines to stop the Chinese from claiming a bunch of unoccupied atolls and sand bars?
Why are we being super charitable with China's land grabs here?
Chinese expansion in the south china sea is predicated in claiming small uninhabuted and often artificial islands to extend their coastal territory.
Are you proposing we landmine the populated areas?
It's posturing to send a signal to China, nobody expects an actual war to break out. It's the same reason nobody's going to do the same to Russia. A big reason for the US to get China to back down is to show it, and its allies, are more than able to make a war less palatable is by physically showing fucking around isn't worth it. Then this goes back to soft power bullshit, which everyone prefers.
Its so US arms manufacturers can make money Harry
It is true that US arms manufacturers will make money but that does not mean that it is done for the sake of US arms manufacturers making money.
I mean they're internationally condemned weapons of marginal utility that maim and murder civilians for decades after deployment. Given how much of our arms production is driven by profit motives I think Im being as charitable as possible.
Landmines are dirt cheap and last forever. There's not much money to be made there.
On Sunday, the US released a photo that showed one of its guided-missile destroyers, the USS Mustin, shadowing the Liaoning group - a move that analysts said was designed to send a clear message to the Chinese.
The photo taken on Monday somewhere in the East China Sea showed the ship’s captain, Commander Robert J Briggs, and his deputy Commander Richard D Slye watching the Liaoning, which was just a few thousand metres away.
Wow that's uh... really close.
Very blatant message considering there is likely a submarine already shadowing the Liaoning.
Black lives matter.
Law and Order ≠ Justice
ACNH Island Isla Cero: DA-3082-2045-4142
Captain of the SES Comptroller of the State
@Styrofoam Sammich can you not do the passive aggressive Awesome thing? This isn't the first time you've done it to me and if you have something to say, I'd prefer you just say it.
"Styrofoam Sammich" can you not do the passive aggressive Awesome thing? This isn't the first time you've done it to me and if you have something to say, I'd prefer you just say it.
Fine. Its still an extremely silly bit to get upset over what I wrote. Anit personel mines are not relevant to South China Sea expansion. No one is downplaying anything.
Jumping into a converaation about landmines and then getting snippy when people respond to you about landmines is goosey.
Styrofoam Sammich on
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ButtersA glass of some milksRegistered Userregular
It's posturing to send a signal to China, nobody expects an actual war to break out. It's the same reason nobody's going to do the same to Russia. A big reason for the US to get China to back down is to show it, and its allies, are more than able to make a war less palatable is by physically showing fucking around isn't worth it. Then this goes back to soft power bullshit, which everyone prefers.
Also, is an unfortunate but needed answer to China's ridiculous territorial claims.
Why do we need anti personel mines to stop the Chinese from claiming a bunch of unoccupied atolls and sand bars?
Why are we being super charitable with China's land grabs here?
When the arms change hands, the arms makers still get paid. The biggest customer of the US military industrial complex is the US government.
It's posturing to send a signal to China, nobody expects an actual war to break out. It's the same reason nobody's going to do the same to Russia. A big reason for the US to get China to back down is to show it, and its allies, are more than able to make a war less palatable is by physically showing fucking around isn't worth it. Then this goes back to soft power bullshit, which everyone prefers.
Also, is an unfortunate but needed answer to China's ridiculous territorial claims.
Why do we need anti personel mines to stop the Chinese from claiming a bunch of unoccupied atolls and sand bars?
Why are we being super charitable with China's land grabs here?
When the arms change hands, the arms makers still get paid. The biggest customer of the US military industrial complex is the US government.
"The only way to get rid of a temptation is to give into it." - Oscar Wilde
"We believe in the people and their 'wisdom' as if there was some special secret entrance to knowledge that barred to anyone who had ever learned anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Only with countries who won't break the world in a conflict, that's what proxy wars with those countries are for when things get too hot. The US arms manufacturers would be ok with a war in Venezuela, not a land war in China or Russia for those reasons.
Edit: We know what the US would do against a country who is too strong on is own soil in wars, and its nukes. That's what the Cold War was about.
Did you skip the entirety of 1900's US history? Because uh, the US hasn't given a shit who it sells weapons to and the results of those organizations being armed and what they did with being armed.
Nukes changed the equation. How the US conduct wars wasn't the same after World War 2. Thats moving the goal posts, the original contension was that US arms manufacturers wanted a ground war in China. Today.
On Sunday, the US released a photo that showed one of its guided-missile destroyers, the USS Mustin, shadowing the Liaoning group - a move that analysts said was designed to send a clear message to the Chinese.
The photo taken on Monday somewhere in the East China Sea showed the ship’s captain, Commander Robert J Briggs, and his deputy Commander Richard D Slye watching the Liaoning, which was just a few thousand metres away.
Wow that's uh... really close.
Very blatant message considering there is likely a submarine already shadowing the Liaoning.
I wonder if we're pinging them like we were USSR ships in the 70's.
Only with countries who won't break the world in a conflict, that's what proxy wars with those countries are for when things get too hot. The US arms manufacturers would be ok with a war in Venezuela, not a land war in China or Russia for those reasons.
Edit: We know what the US would do against a country who is too strong on is own soil in wars, and its nukes. That's what the Cold War was about.
Did you skip the entirety of 1900's US history? Because uh, the US hasn't given a shit who it sells weapons to and the results of those organizations being armed and what they did with being armed.
I almost wish this were true. We seem to very much care what people do with what we sell them. Honestly, I think it would almost be better if we were just an amoral arms dealer nation. Instead we sell people arms, train their people, and then go back to blow them up if they suddenly stop agreeing with us. See fucking everything in the middle east we are involved in at this point.
Only with countries who won't break the world in a conflict, that's what proxy wars with those countries are for when things get too hot. The US arms manufacturers would be ok with a war in Venezuela, not a land war in China or Russia for those reasons.
Edit: We know what the US would do against a country who is too strong on is own soil in wars, and its nukes. That's what the Cold War was about.
Did you skip the entirety of 1900's US history? Because uh, the US hasn't given a shit who it sells weapons to and the results of those organizations being armed and what they did with being armed.
Nukes changed the equation. How the US conduct wars wasn't the same after World War 2. Thats moving the goal posts, the original contension was that US arms manufacturers wanted a ground war in China. Today.
The point is that landmines are bad weapons developed and use by countries which do bad things, and which maim and kill civilians (and lots of children) for decades after their original purpose has expired. If you would like to contest that the killing and maiming is a worthwhile or net positive endeavour go ahead.
We were talking about America going to war with China.
Harry the "original contention" as you put it was my post. I claimed that US arms manufacturers want the US to buy and allow them to sell landmines. This is not the same as wanting WW3.
Stop putting words in other people's mouths.
Styrofoam Sammich on
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No-QuarterNothing To FearBut Fear ItselfRegistered Userregular
It's posturing to send a signal to China, nobody expects an actual war to break out. It's the same reason nobody's going to do the same to Russia. A big reason for the US to get China to back down is to show it, and its allies, are more than able to make a war less palatable is by physically showing fucking around isn't worth it. Then this goes back to soft power bullshit, which everyone prefers.
Also, is an unfortunate but needed answer to China's ridiculous territorial claims.
Why do we need anti personel mines to stop the Chinese from claiming a bunch of unoccupied atolls and sand bars?
Why are we being super charitable with China's land grabs here?
Chinese expansion in the south china sea is predicated in claiming small uninhabuted and often artificial islands to extend their coastal territory.
Are you proposing we landmine the populated areas?
It's posturing to send a signal to China, nobody expects an actual war to break out. It's the same reason nobody's going to do the same to Russia. A big reason for the US to get China to back down is to show it, and its allies, are more than able to make a war less palatable is by physically showing fucking around isn't worth it. Then this goes back to soft power bullshit, which everyone prefers.
Also, is an unfortunate but needed answer to China's ridiculous territorial claims.
Why do we need anti personel mines to stop the Chinese from claiming a bunch of unoccupied atolls and sand bars?
Why are we being super charitable with China's land grabs here?
Chinese expansion in the south china sea is predicated in claiming small uninhabuted and often artificial islands to extend their coastal territory.
Are you proposing we landmine the populated areas?
What makes you think they'll stop there if allowed to do so with impunity?
And in the end I would say that the US will probably... lose? I feel like the Taliban (that is to say, local relatively hardline Pashtun militias under an umbrella) will go back to controlling their territories, as they already do in many places
I wonder what will happen post? Reprisals almost certainly, but then what? Will we see another Afghan Civil War? And then maybe a period of relative peace?
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No-QuarterNothing To FearBut Fear ItselfRegistered Userregular
It's going to be ugly, and the people that complained that we should have left will transition to complaining that we dishonored sacrifice or some shit.
Yeah, it feels like in some sense staying has just been delaying the inevitable negative consequences. We were just waiting around till a President got tired of the whole thing and felt like they had the political cover to pull out.
It's posturing to send a signal to China, nobody expects an actual war to break out. It's the same reason nobody's going to do the same to Russia. A big reason for the US to get China to back down is to show it, and its allies, are more than able to make a war less palatable is by physically showing fucking around isn't worth it. Then this goes back to soft power bullshit, which everyone prefers.
Also, is an unfortunate but needed answer to China's ridiculous territorial claims.
Why do we need anti personel mines to stop the Chinese from claiming a bunch of unoccupied atolls and sand bars?
Why are we being super charitable with China's land grabs here?
Chinese expansion in the south china sea is predicated in claiming small uninhabuted and often artificial islands to extend their coastal territory.
Are you proposing we landmine the populated areas?
It's posturing to send a signal to China, nobody expects an actual war to break out. It's the same reason nobody's going to do the same to Russia. A big reason for the US to get China to back down is to show it, and its allies, are more than able to make a war less palatable is by physically showing fucking around isn't worth it. Then this goes back to soft power bullshit, which everyone prefers.
Also, is an unfortunate but needed answer to China's ridiculous territorial claims.
Why do we need anti personel mines to stop the Chinese from claiming a bunch of unoccupied atolls and sand bars?
Why are we being super charitable with China's land grabs here?
Chinese expansion in the south china sea is predicated in claiming small uninhabuted and often artificial islands to extend their coastal territory.
Are you proposing we landmine the populated areas?
What makes you think they'll stop there if allowed to do so with impunity?
Well if they try to extend their claim to the South China Sea by invading New Zealand we can revisit.
It's posturing to send a signal to China, nobody expects an actual war to break out. It's the same reason nobody's going to do the same to Russia. A big reason for the US to get China to back down is to show it, and its allies, are more than able to make a war less palatable is by physically showing fucking around isn't worth it. Then this goes back to soft power bullshit, which everyone prefers.
Also, is an unfortunate but needed answer to China's ridiculous territorial claims.
Why do we need anti personel mines to stop the Chinese from claiming a bunch of unoccupied atolls and sand bars?
Why are we being super charitable with China's land grabs here?
Chinese expansion in the south china sea is predicated in claiming small uninhabuted and often artificial islands to extend their coastal territory.
Are you proposing we landmine the populated areas?
It's posturing to send a signal to China, nobody expects an actual war to break out. It's the same reason nobody's going to do the same to Russia. A big reason for the US to get China to back down is to show it, and its allies, are more than able to make a war less palatable is by physically showing fucking around isn't worth it. Then this goes back to soft power bullshit, which everyone prefers.
Also, is an unfortunate but needed answer to China's ridiculous territorial claims.
Why do we need anti personel mines to stop the Chinese from claiming a bunch of unoccupied atolls and sand bars?
Why are we being super charitable with China's land grabs here?
Chinese expansion in the south china sea is predicated in claiming small uninhabuted and often artificial islands to extend their coastal territory.
Are you proposing we landmine the populated areas?
What makes you think they'll stop there if allowed to do so with impunity?
Well if they try to extend their claim to the South China Sea by invading New Zealand we can revisit.
This seems like a very strange place to draw the line. Is Australia up for grabs in this scenario?
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No-QuarterNothing To FearBut Fear ItselfRegistered Userregular
It's posturing to send a signal to China, nobody expects an actual war to break out. It's the same reason nobody's going to do the same to Russia. A big reason for the US to get China to back down is to show it, and its allies, are more than able to make a war less palatable is by physically showing fucking around isn't worth it. Then this goes back to soft power bullshit, which everyone prefers.
Also, is an unfortunate but needed answer to China's ridiculous territorial claims.
Why do we need anti personel mines to stop the Chinese from claiming a bunch of unoccupied atolls and sand bars?
Why are we being super charitable with China's land grabs here?
Chinese expansion in the south china sea is predicated in claiming small uninhabuted and often artificial islands to extend their coastal territory.
Are you proposing we landmine the populated areas?
It's posturing to send a signal to China, nobody expects an actual war to break out. It's the same reason nobody's going to do the same to Russia. A big reason for the US to get China to back down is to show it, and its allies, are more than able to make a war less palatable is by physically showing fucking around isn't worth it. Then this goes back to soft power bullshit, which everyone prefers.
Also, is an unfortunate but needed answer to China's ridiculous territorial claims.
Why do we need anti personel mines to stop the Chinese from claiming a bunch of unoccupied atolls and sand bars?
Why are we being super charitable with China's land grabs here?
Chinese expansion in the south china sea is predicated in claiming small uninhabuted and often artificial islands to extend their coastal territory.
Are you proposing we landmine the populated areas?
What makes you think they'll stop there if allowed to do so with impunity?
Well if they try to extend their claim to the South China Sea by invading New Zealand we can revisit.
Yeah, it feels like in some sense staying has just been delaying the inevitable negative consequences. We were just waiting around till a President got tired of the whole thing and felt like they had the political cover to pull out.
What was always gonna be required was a republican president willing to commit to a withdrawal, which for all his many faults at least trump was
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Serious question, how reliable are the safety features on modern landmines? Because needing to mine the beaches of Taiwan and Japan, or getting into a land war with China may seem ludicrous, but even just the capability of doing those things may be necessary as part of the balance of power. And it's one of those things where being unable to contest a conventional war against China narrows the options to fire the nukes or do nothing, which is arguably more dangerous.
I would like to see actual expert opinions on whether this is a reasonable capability that we need or if this is just an excuse to prop up the military industrial complex.
While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
It's posturing to send a signal to China, nobody expects an actual war to break out. It's the same reason nobody's going to do the same to Russia. A big reason for the US to get China to back down is to show it, and its allies, are more than able to make a war less palatable is by physically showing fucking around isn't worth it. Then this goes back to soft power bullshit, which everyone prefers.
Also, is an unfortunate but needed answer to China's ridiculous territorial claims.
Why do we need anti personel mines to stop the Chinese from claiming a bunch of unoccupied atolls and sand bars?
Why are we being super charitable with China's land grabs here?
Chinese expansion in the south china sea is predicated in claiming small uninhabuted and often artificial islands to extend their coastal territory.
Are you proposing we landmine the populated areas?
It's posturing to send a signal to China, nobody expects an actual war to break out. It's the same reason nobody's going to do the same to Russia. A big reason for the US to get China to back down is to show it, and its allies, are more than able to make a war less palatable is by physically showing fucking around isn't worth it. Then this goes back to soft power bullshit, which everyone prefers.
Also, is an unfortunate but needed answer to China's ridiculous territorial claims.
Why do we need anti personel mines to stop the Chinese from claiming a bunch of unoccupied atolls and sand bars?
Why are we being super charitable with China's land grabs here?
Chinese expansion in the south china sea is predicated in claiming small uninhabuted and often artificial islands to extend their coastal territory.
Are you proposing we landmine the populated areas?
What makes you think they'll stop there if allowed to do so with impunity?
Well if they try to extend their claim to the South China Sea by invading New Zealand we can revisit.
So you're not anti-imperialist after all.
Good to know for the future.
Very weird accusation in a discussion about the US manfucatuering and theoretically deploying land mines my dude.
Serious question, how reliable are the safety features on modern landmines? Because needing to mine the beaches of Taiwan and Japan, or getting into a land war with China may seem ludicrous, but even just the capability of doing those things may be necessary as part of the balance of power. And it's one of those things where being unable to contest a conventional war against China narrows the options to fire the nukes or do nothing, which is arguably more dangerous.
I would like to see actual expert opinions on whether this is a reasonable capability that we need or if this is just an excuse to prop up the military industrial complex.
Of the 3,000,000 anti-personnel mines remaining in US inventory, all are reported to have self-destruct capability with a maximum of a 30 day lifespan once armed. Reported reliability of the self-destruct mechanisms are 99.999% according to one report, another report cites a failure rate of 6 per million.
Which...is doubtful and probably at least an order of magnitude lower (edit, lower as in less likely to self-destruct the way they should) than reported.
If Biden does follow through and rejoin the Ottawa Convention, the US stockpile will have expired (battery shelf life, no maintenance permitted) by about 2030.
It's posturing to send a signal to China, nobody expects an actual war to break out. It's the same reason nobody's going to do the same to Russia. A big reason for the US to get China to back down is to show it, and its allies, are more than able to make a war less palatable is by physically showing fucking around isn't worth it. Then this goes back to soft power bullshit, which everyone prefers.
Also, is an unfortunate but needed answer to China's ridiculous territorial claims.
Why do we need anti personel mines to stop the Chinese from claiming a bunch of unoccupied atolls and sand bars?
Why are we being super charitable with China's land grabs here?
Chinese expansion in the south china sea is predicated in claiming small uninhabuted and often artificial islands to extend their coastal territory.
Are you proposing we landmine the populated areas?
It's posturing to send a signal to China, nobody expects an actual war to break out. It's the same reason nobody's going to do the same to Russia. A big reason for the US to get China to back down is to show it, and its allies, are more than able to make a war less palatable is by physically showing fucking around isn't worth it. Then this goes back to soft power bullshit, which everyone prefers.
Also, is an unfortunate but needed answer to China's ridiculous territorial claims.
Why do we need anti personel mines to stop the Chinese from claiming a bunch of unoccupied atolls and sand bars?
Why are we being super charitable with China's land grabs here?
Chinese expansion in the south china sea is predicated in claiming small uninhabuted and often artificial islands to extend their coastal territory.
Are you proposing we landmine the populated areas?
What makes you think they'll stop there if allowed to do so with impunity?
Well if they try to extend their claim to the South China Sea by invading New Zealand we can revisit.
So you're not anti-imperialist after all.
Good to know for the future.
Very weird accusation in a discussion about the US manfucatuering and theoretically deploying land mines my dude.
It’s the foreign policy thread, not the landmine thread. Topics of discussion shift from time to time.
It's posturing to send a signal to China, nobody expects an actual war to break out. It's the same reason nobody's going to do the same to Russia. A big reason for the US to get China to back down is to show it, and its allies, are more than able to make a war less palatable is by physically showing fucking around isn't worth it. Then this goes back to soft power bullshit, which everyone prefers.
Also, is an unfortunate but needed answer to China's ridiculous territorial claims.
Why do we need anti personel mines to stop the Chinese from claiming a bunch of unoccupied atolls and sand bars?
Why are we being super charitable with China's land grabs here?
Chinese expansion in the south china sea is predicated in claiming small uninhabuted and often artificial islands to extend their coastal territory.
Are you proposing we landmine the populated areas?
It's posturing to send a signal to China, nobody expects an actual war to break out. It's the same reason nobody's going to do the same to Russia. A big reason for the US to get China to back down is to show it, and its allies, are more than able to make a war less palatable is by physically showing fucking around isn't worth it. Then this goes back to soft power bullshit, which everyone prefers.
Also, is an unfortunate but needed answer to China's ridiculous territorial claims.
Why do we need anti personel mines to stop the Chinese from claiming a bunch of unoccupied atolls and sand bars?
Why are we being super charitable with China's land grabs here?
Chinese expansion in the south china sea is predicated in claiming small uninhabuted and often artificial islands to extend their coastal territory.
Are you proposing we landmine the populated areas?
What makes you think they'll stop there if allowed to do so with impunity?
Well if they try to extend their claim to the South China Sea by invading New Zealand we can revisit.
So you're not anti-imperialist after all.
Good to know for the future.
Very weird accusation in a discussion about the US manfucatuering and theoretically deploying land mines my dude.
It’s the foreign policy thread, not the landmine thread. Topics of discussion shift from time to time.
Lol he's quoting me talking about land mines and china.
Chinese expansionism is a serious localized problem, as it is for every empire and would be empire. Using this expansionism as a defense of what is widely regarded as a crime against humanity, as has been done deveral times in this thread, is terrible and no one is obliged to take this new age domino theory stuff seriously.
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No-QuarterNothing To FearBut Fear ItselfRegistered Userregular
It's posturing to send a signal to China, nobody expects an actual war to break out. It's the same reason nobody's going to do the same to Russia. A big reason for the US to get China to back down is to show it, and its allies, are more than able to make a war less palatable is by physically showing fucking around isn't worth it. Then this goes back to soft power bullshit, which everyone prefers.
Also, is an unfortunate but needed answer to China's ridiculous territorial claims.
Why do we need anti personel mines to stop the Chinese from claiming a bunch of unoccupied atolls and sand bars?
Why are we being super charitable with China's land grabs here?
Chinese expansion in the south china sea is predicated in claiming small uninhabuted and often artificial islands to extend their coastal territory.
Are you proposing we landmine the populated areas?
It's posturing to send a signal to China, nobody expects an actual war to break out. It's the same reason nobody's going to do the same to Russia. A big reason for the US to get China to back down is to show it, and its allies, are more than able to make a war less palatable is by physically showing fucking around isn't worth it. Then this goes back to soft power bullshit, which everyone prefers.
Also, is an unfortunate but needed answer to China's ridiculous territorial claims.
Why do we need anti personel mines to stop the Chinese from claiming a bunch of unoccupied atolls and sand bars?
Why are we being super charitable with China's land grabs here?
Chinese expansion in the south china sea is predicated in claiming small uninhabuted and often artificial islands to extend their coastal territory.
Are you proposing we landmine the populated areas?
What makes you think they'll stop there if allowed to do so with impunity?
Well if they try to extend their claim to the South China Sea by invading New Zealand we can revisit.
So you're not anti-imperialist after all.
Good to know for the future.
Very weird accusation in a discussion about the US manfucatuering and theoretically deploying land mines my dude.
Do you think China's land grabs are acceptable or not, or is your anti-imperialism only relegated to American misadventures?
It's posturing to send a signal to China, nobody expects an actual war to break out. It's the same reason nobody's going to do the same to Russia. A big reason for the US to get China to back down is to show it, and its allies, are more than able to make a war less palatable is by physically showing fucking around isn't worth it. Then this goes back to soft power bullshit, which everyone prefers.
Also, is an unfortunate but needed answer to China's ridiculous territorial claims.
Why do we need anti personel mines to stop the Chinese from claiming a bunch of unoccupied atolls and sand bars?
Why are we being super charitable with China's land grabs here?
Chinese expansion in the south china sea is predicated in claiming small uninhabuted and often artificial islands to extend their coastal territory.
Are you proposing we landmine the populated areas?
It's posturing to send a signal to China, nobody expects an actual war to break out. It's the same reason nobody's going to do the same to Russia. A big reason for the US to get China to back down is to show it, and its allies, are more than able to make a war less palatable is by physically showing fucking around isn't worth it. Then this goes back to soft power bullshit, which everyone prefers.
Also, is an unfortunate but needed answer to China's ridiculous territorial claims.
Why do we need anti personel mines to stop the Chinese from claiming a bunch of unoccupied atolls and sand bars?
Why are we being super charitable with China's land grabs here?
Chinese expansion in the south china sea is predicated in claiming small uninhabuted and often artificial islands to extend their coastal territory.
Are you proposing we landmine the populated areas?
What makes you think they'll stop there if allowed to do so with impunity?
Well if they try to extend their claim to the South China Sea by invading New Zealand we can revisit.
So you're not anti-imperialist after all.
Good to know for the future.
Very weird accusation in a discussion about the US manfucatuering and theoretically deploying land mines my dude.
It’s the foreign policy thread, not the landmine thread. Topics of discussion shift from time to time.
Lol he's quoting me talking about land mines and china.
Chinese expansionism is a serious localized problem, as it is for every empire and would be empire. Using this expansionism as a defense of what is widely regarded as a crime against humanity, as has been done deveral times in this thread, is terrible and no one is obliged to take this new age domino theory stuff seriously.
Is it a serious problem? Because from all your responses so far it seems you aren’t all that bothered by it.
You seem more upset about the possibility that land mines might be used to push back against that expansion than the expansion itself.
Breaching enemy minefields is a giant pile of bullshit. All that old school stuff about dudes with metal detectors and headsets? Yeah, we don't do that anymore. We fire a rocket with a giant tube full of C4 behind it and detonate the whole shebang to clear a lane. It's called a MICLIC: mine clearing line charge. We also use mine/booby trap sniffing remote controlled robots. China uses them too. China also uses mine clearing robots as well. China ALSO uses robots with MICLICs, according to Pop Sci, so my point here is that any theoretical invasion of Taiwan is going to feature heavily mined beaches and Chinese combat engineers breaching them. It's part and parcel with warfare.
As far as "safety features", things may have changed since my time 20 years ago in Korea, but "friendly" mines are supposed to be known location, so theoretically you can recover them, but there are also anti-handling devices, so quite frankly "friendly" mines are usually just bipped: Blown In Place.
Also land mines are total bullshit.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
edited April 2021
You think China's threat to Taiwan is similar to the Domino theory?
Fencingsax on
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No-QuarterNothing To FearBut Fear ItselfRegistered Userregular
It's posturing to send a signal to China, nobody expects an actual war to break out. It's the same reason nobody's going to do the same to Russia. A big reason for the US to get China to back down is to show it, and its allies, are more than able to make a war less palatable is by physically showing fucking around isn't worth it. Then this goes back to soft power bullshit, which everyone prefers.
Also, is an unfortunate but needed answer to China's ridiculous territorial claims.
Why do we need anti personel mines to stop the Chinese from claiming a bunch of unoccupied atolls and sand bars?
Why are we being super charitable with China's land grabs here?
Chinese expansion in the south china sea is predicated in claiming small uninhabuted and often artificial islands to extend their coastal territory.
Are you proposing we landmine the populated areas?
It's posturing to send a signal to China, nobody expects an actual war to break out. It's the same reason nobody's going to do the same to Russia. A big reason for the US to get China to back down is to show it, and its allies, are more than able to make a war less palatable is by physically showing fucking around isn't worth it. Then this goes back to soft power bullshit, which everyone prefers.
Also, is an unfortunate but needed answer to China's ridiculous territorial claims.
Why do we need anti personel mines to stop the Chinese from claiming a bunch of unoccupied atolls and sand bars?
Why are we being super charitable with China's land grabs here?
Chinese expansion in the south china sea is predicated in claiming small uninhabuted and often artificial islands to extend their coastal territory.
Are you proposing we landmine the populated areas?
What makes you think they'll stop there if allowed to do so with impunity?
Well if they try to extend their claim to the South China Sea by invading New Zealand we can revisit.
So you're not anti-imperialist after all.
Good to know for the future.
Very weird accusation in a discussion about the US manfucatuering and theoretically deploying land mines my dude.
It’s the foreign policy thread, not the landmine thread. Topics of discussion shift from time to time.
Lol he's quoting me talking about land mines and china.
Chinese expansionism is a serious localized problem, as it is for every empire and would be empire. Using this expansionism as a defense of what is widely regarded as a crime against humanity, as has been done deveral times in this thread, is terrible and no one is obliged to take this new age domino theory stuff seriously.
Crimea and Ukraine would seem to disagree with you.
Whether landmines are the only response to Chinese territorial aggression seems to be a position that only you have taken.
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No so much arms deals as aid. I don't think anyone in Afghanistan could afford Stinger missles.
Why are we being super charitable with China's land grabs here?
Chinese expansion in the south china sea is predicated in claiming small uninhabuted and often artificial islands to extend their coastal territory.
Are you proposing we landmine the populated areas?
Landmines are dirt cheap and last forever. There's not much money to be made there.
I'm saying don't give China a free pass as they claim exclusive rights over what was once international territory.
You quoted a conversation about land mines
I'm taking issue with the part of the sentence where you downplayed China's behavior in the South China Sea.
Very blatant message considering there is likely a submarine already shadowing the Liaoning.
Law and Order ≠ Justice
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Fine. Its still an extremely silly bit to get upset over what I wrote. Anit personel mines are not relevant to South China Sea expansion. No one is downplaying anything.
Jumping into a converaation about landmines and then getting snippy when people respond to you about landmines is goosey.
When the arms change hands, the arms makers still get paid. The biggest customer of the US military industrial complex is the US government.
Fair enough, you are absolutely correct on this.
"We believe in the people and their 'wisdom' as if there was some special secret entrance to knowledge that barred to anyone who had ever learned anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Nukes changed the equation. How the US conduct wars wasn't the same after World War 2. Thats moving the goal posts, the original contension was that US arms manufacturers wanted a ground war in China. Today.
That was a proxy war between the US and Soviet Union during the Cold War. They weren't doing that on Russian soil.
I wonder if we're pinging them like we were USSR ships in the 70's.
I almost wish this were true. We seem to very much care what people do with what we sell them. Honestly, I think it would almost be better if we were just an amoral arms dealer nation. Instead we sell people arms, train their people, and then go back to blow them up if they suddenly stop agreeing with us. See fucking everything in the middle east we are involved in at this point.
This was not the claim
We were talking about America going to war with China.
Harry the "original contention" as you put it was my post. I claimed that US arms manufacturers want the US to buy and allow them to sell landmines. This is not the same as wanting WW3.
Stop putting words in other people's mouths.
What makes you think they'll stop there if allowed to do so with impunity?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/biden-us-troop-withdrawal-afghanistan/2021/04/13/918c3cae-9beb-11eb-8a83-3bc1fa69c2e8_story.html
20 years of war in Afghanistan
And in the end I would say that the US will probably... lose? I feel like the Taliban (that is to say, local relatively hardline Pashtun militias under an umbrella) will go back to controlling their territories, as they already do in many places
I wonder what will happen post? Reprisals almost certainly, but then what? Will we see another Afghan Civil War? And then maybe a period of relative peace?
In reality we are pulling off a bandaid.
Well if they try to extend their claim to the South China Sea by invading New Zealand we can revisit.
This seems like a very strange place to draw the line. Is Australia up for grabs in this scenario?
So you're not anti-imperialist after all.
Good to know for the future.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
What was always gonna be required was a republican president willing to commit to a withdrawal, which for all his many faults at least trump was
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
I would like to see actual expert opinions on whether this is a reasonable capability that we need or if this is just an excuse to prop up the military industrial complex.
Very weird accusation in a discussion about the US manfucatuering and theoretically deploying land mines my dude.
Of the 3,000,000 anti-personnel mines remaining in US inventory, all are reported to have self-destruct capability with a maximum of a 30 day lifespan once armed. Reported reliability of the self-destruct mechanisms are 99.999% according to one report, another report cites a failure rate of 6 per million.
Which...is doubtful and probably at least an order of magnitude lower (edit, lower as in less likely to self-destruct the way they should) than reported.
If Biden does follow through and rejoin the Ottawa Convention, the US stockpile will have expired (battery shelf life, no maintenance permitted) by about 2030.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/02/27/questions-and-answers-new-us-landmine-policy#
It’s the foreign policy thread, not the landmine thread. Topics of discussion shift from time to time.
Lol he's quoting me talking about land mines and china.
Chinese expansionism is a serious localized problem, as it is for every empire and would be empire. Using this expansionism as a defense of what is widely regarded as a crime against humanity, as has been done deveral times in this thread, is terrible and no one is obliged to take this new age domino theory stuff seriously.
Do you think China's land grabs are acceptable or not, or is your anti-imperialism only relegated to American misadventures?
Ed-snipped out part of a draft
Is it a serious problem? Because from all your responses so far it seems you aren’t all that bothered by it.
You seem more upset about the possibility that land mines might be used to push back against that expansion than the expansion itself.
Breaching enemy minefields is a giant pile of bullshit. All that old school stuff about dudes with metal detectors and headsets? Yeah, we don't do that anymore. We fire a rocket with a giant tube full of C4 behind it and detonate the whole shebang to clear a lane. It's called a MICLIC: mine clearing line charge. We also use mine/booby trap sniffing remote controlled robots. China uses them too. China also uses mine clearing robots as well. China ALSO uses robots with MICLICs, according to Pop Sci, so my point here is that any theoretical invasion of Taiwan is going to feature heavily mined beaches and Chinese combat engineers breaching them. It's part and parcel with warfare.
As far as "safety features", things may have changed since my time 20 years ago in Korea, but "friendly" mines are supposed to be known location, so theoretically you can recover them, but there are also anti-handling devices, so quite frankly "friendly" mines are usually just bipped: Blown In Place.
Also land mines are total bullshit.
Crimea and Ukraine would seem to disagree with you.
Whether landmines are the only response to Chinese territorial aggression seems to be a position that only you have taken.