Claims abiut Russian bounties on US troops are getting rolled back as the administration admits that the intel comunity only has low to moderate confidence it ever happened.
Zavianuniversal peace sounds better than forever warRegistered Userregular
The Taliban have responded to Biden's new September 11th withdrawal date, which is a direct breach of the May 1st deadline which the Taliban have been abiding to peacefully, by saying they will now make Afghanistan a 'nightmare' until all foreign forces leave. This is actually the same stance the US took back during the Soviet withdrawal, despite the Soviets pleading that such a bloody withdrawal would also leave behind many Afghan women who had newly won rights. Biden clearly does not give a shit about peace, September 11th being the withdrawal date has zero basis in his stated excuse of "we need more time logistically', it's a completely arbitrary political deadline meant to give him a PR win, at the cost of unleashing violence and death. The US withdrawal is going to be just as callous and bloody as the past 20 years of war, and any violence that occurs post May 1st is 100% on Joe Biden. Fuck Joe Biden
The Taliban have responded to Biden's new September 11th withdrawal date, which is a direct breach of the May 1st deadline which the Taliban have been abiding to peacefully, by saying they will now make Afghanistan a 'nightmare' until all foreign forces leave. This is actually the same stance the US took back during the Soviet withdrawal, despite the Soviets pleading that such a bloody withdrawal would also leave behind many Afghan women who had newly won rights. Biden clearly does not give a shit about peace, September 11th being the withdrawal date has zero basis in his stated excuse of "we need more time logistically', it's a completely arbitrary political deadline meant to give him a PR win, at the cost of unleashing violence and death. The US withdrawal is going to be just as callous and bloody as the past 20 years of war, and any violence that occurs post May 1st is 100% on Joe Biden. Fuck Joe Biden
The folks actually doing the violence still carry the lions share of the responsibility for doing the violence. They could just not bathe their country in blood cause we've said we can't meet the previous deadline.
The Taliban have responded to Biden's new September 11th withdrawal date, which is a direct breach of the May 1st deadline which the Taliban have been abiding to peacefully, by saying they will now make Afghanistan a 'nightmare' until all foreign forces leave. This is actually the same stance the US took back during the Soviet withdrawal, despite the Soviets pleading that such a bloody withdrawal would also leave behind many Afghan women who had newly won rights. Biden clearly does not give a shit about peace, September 11th being the withdrawal date has zero basis in his stated excuse of "we need more time logistically', it's a completely arbitrary political deadline meant to give him a PR win, at the cost of unleashing violence and death. The US withdrawal is going to be just as callous and bloody as the past 20 years of war, and any violence that occurs post May 1st is 100% on Joe Biden. Fuck Joe Biden
What information are you basing your conclusion that "we need more time logistically" is bullshit on? Why does this indicate "Biden clearly does not give a shit about peace" exactly?
And what does "This is actually the same stance the US took back during the Soviet withdrawal, despite the Soviets pleading that such a bloody withdrawal would also leave behind many Afghan women who had newly won rights" mean?
The Taliban have responded to Biden's new September 11th withdrawal date, which is a direct breach of the May 1st deadline which the Taliban have been abiding to peacefully, by saying they will now make Afghanistan a 'nightmare' until all foreign forces leave. This is actually the same stance the US took back during the Soviet withdrawal, despite the Soviets pleading that such a bloody withdrawal would also leave behind many Afghan women who had newly won rights. Biden clearly does not give a shit about peace, September 11th being the withdrawal date has zero basis in his stated excuse of "we need more time logistically', it's a completely arbitrary political deadline meant to give him a PR win, at the cost of unleashing violence and death. The US withdrawal is going to be just as callous and bloody as the past 20 years of war, and any violence that occurs post May 1st is 100% on Joe Biden. Fuck Joe Biden
The Taliban were not targeting Americans but they have not let up outside of the normal seasonal die down in the winter verse Afghani targets. And have constantly killed Afghan civilians and military personnel this entire time. The Trump treaty only focused on the US and NATO troops and did nothing to actually stop violence verse Afghans.
I think Biden is operating from a belief I developed from revisiting our time in Vietnam back around 2008: if you allow the military to set a timetable for withdrawal based on real-world conditions, you will never, ever withdraw your forces.
I’m not even saying that military leadership would be wrong about the consequences, but Zeno’s arrow just isn’t going to get there, especially when the terms of victory have never been clear.
That doesn’t preclude allowing other entities to offer their judgment, but the primary Democratic framework around leaving Afghanistan has been ‘when the military says it’s ok to leave’ for over a decade.
They got their best minds on it and crunched all the numbers and the earliest they could possibly get everyone out the door was Sep 11th, which is just a regular ol Saturday
They got their best minds on it and crunched all the numbers and the earliest they could possibly get everyone out the door was Sep 11th, which is just a regular ol Saturday
A cynic might suggest it was picked to deprive the Taliban of a date to celebrate the withdrawal independently from celebrating the attack on the Twin Towers.
The Taliban have responded to Biden's new September 11th withdrawal date, which is a direct breach of the May 1st deadline which the Taliban have been abiding to peacefully, by saying they will now make Afghanistan a 'nightmare' until all foreign forces leave. This is actually the same stance the US took back during the Soviet withdrawal, despite the Soviets pleading that such a bloody withdrawal would also leave behind many Afghan women who had newly won rights. Biden clearly does not give a shit about peace, September 11th being the withdrawal date has zero basis in his stated excuse of "we need more time logistically', it's a completely arbitrary political deadline meant to give him a PR win, at the cost of unleashing violence and death. The US withdrawal is going to be just as callous and bloody as the past 20 years of war, and any violence that occurs post May 1st is 100% on Joe Biden. Fuck Joe Biden
The Taliban were not targeting Americans but they have not let up outside of the normal seasonal die down in the winter verse Afghani targets. And have constantly killed Afghan civilians and military personnel this entire time. The Trump treaty only focused on the US and NATO troops and did nothing to actually stop violence verse Afghans.
Yes the Taliban have largely controlled most of the country for the last 20 years, the average people being terrorized from all sides but especially from the corrupt police and Afghan government, as well as US bombing runs
There is zero reason for US troops to be in Afghanistan and they need to leave ASAP. The 'we need more time logistically' is bullshit because it's the same line we've been hearing for over a decade. We have zero role in Afghanistan except for perhaps as part of a UN-led humanitarian peacekeeping mission. The US exceptionalism that justifies violence and war is disgusting, and bombing people in Afghanistan historically has proven that it doesn't really solve anything. Throwing away an withdrawal date, which was agreed to months ago and a peaceful withdrawal that could have begun on day one, is a slap in the face to the Taliban and the peace process. It shows Biden has no concern for a peaceful resolution in Afghanistan, I'm guessing through callous disregard and wanting to get a political 'win' with a nice Sept. 11th speech that will be all about the US and not about the civilians that have died for nothing
They got their best minds on it and crunched all the numbers and the earliest they could possibly get everyone out the door was Sep 11th, which is just a regular ol Saturday
From everything I’ve read about the withdrawal much of the troops will be gone well in advance of 9/11. That date was picked as the very last date forces would be there. They aren’t all planning to hop on a plane the morning of the 11th.
Or the people making the agreement months ago were fuckin idiots that never actually followed through and we've not actually been doing any of the shit necessary to leave and can't manage to complete such an endeavor in about 2 weeks.
If we were going to be out by May 1 the Trump Administration should have started pulling out troops, equipment, and breaking down forward bases probably in November or December.
They did none of that.
We are pulling out but also not leaving a bunch of equipment there for the Taliban either.
Or the people making the agreement months ago were fuckin idiots that never actually followed through and we've not actually been doing any of the shit necessary to leave and can't manage to complete such an endeavor in about 2 weeks.
Hey now, I'm sure this time Trump made sure work was actually done to back up his rhetoric.
Like September 11th is very clearly a symbolically chosen date, I won't even argue that. There's no way it couldn't be. Like there's no way that date is an accident. If you landed on that date just via estimates and weren't reaching for the symbolism you'd move the end of the pull out by a week. However I do highly doubt that it was arbitrarily decided to break the agreement and push the date out simply for that symbolism.
Like September 11th is very clearly a symbolically chosen date, I won't even argue that. There's no way it couldn't be. Like there's no way that date is an accident. If you landed on that date just via estimates and weren't reaching for the symbolism you'd move the end of the pull out by a week. However I do highly doubt that it was arbitrarily decided to break the agreement and push the date out simply for that symbolism.
I suspect the armed forces said something like "late august" or "mid-september" or whatever and then the White House picked Sep 11th.
It’s such a tone deaf thing, to me; like we’re not gonna be declaring any victories, we’re gonna get our people and materiel out and frankly hope everyone forgets the last fifteen years as soon as possible. So why make a fucking anniversary event out of it?
Also, it tells you a little bit about how unseriously people took trump that Biden’s five month delay in the withdrawal is reported breathlessly as confirmation it’ll actually happen
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
It’s such a tone deaf thing, to me; like we’re not gonna be declaring any victories, we’re gonna get our people and materiel out and frankly hope everyone forgets the last fifteen years as soon as possible. So why make a fucking anniversary event out of it?
Also, it tells you a little bit about how unseriously people took trump that Biden’s five month delay in the withdrawal is reported breathlessly as confirmation it’ll actually happen
To be fair, people breathessly repeated Obama's withdrawal annoucement in 2014 too. And yet.
Claims abiut Russian bounties on US troops are getting rolled back as the administration admits that the intel comunity only has low to moderate confidence it ever happened.
Trump could and should have got the US out of Afghanistan not in 2020, but in 2017. There would have been a lot of former generals crying on cable tv, and cynical leaks, but that’ll only stop you if you let it. But he was lazy, incompetent, and (like Obama) a pushover for the generals so he just didn’t do much for his entire term. Just a massive waste of 4 years.
Judged against the competition in Afghanistan, Biden is gonna come well ahead if he actually does what he says.
Bush: Starts war, loses interest in the war before the invasion is over, proceeded to forget about it for the rest of his term.
Obama: Waste of 8 years.
Trump: Trump
Biden: pulls out in year 1???
If Joe Biden wanted to he could get every US soldier out of Afghanistan within 24 hours
It's just that they probably also are negotiating the withdrawal with the Afghan government
Soldiers yes. Planes, yup probably.
All the equipment? Nope.
Are the NATO allies able to do the same? Probably not.
Also moving that many people out by plan is a huge fucking operation.
Yes we should have gotten out 10 years ago. But at the same time just loading up the bare minimum and flying out isn't a simple operation either. And leaves a lot of equipment behind.
+5
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ButtersA glass of some milksRegistered Userregular
One would hope there were some lessons learned from ISIS overrunning the Iraqi security forces that can be applied to this withdrawal.
One would hope there were some lessons learned from ISIS overrunning the Iraqi security forces that can be applied to this withdrawal.
Not really equivalent
Iraq was in a non-stop civil war since the invasion and I would say the Iraqi military plus its irregular forces were more prepared for ISIS than the Afghan military is. Afghanistan is more of a differing governmental ideologies fighting with the current government having a weaker hand when it comes to discipline of its forces. The old statement about Afghanistan is we took one of the best irregular armies in the world and made one of the worse regular armies.
If Joe Biden wanted to he could get every US soldier out of Afghanistan within 24 hours
It's just that they probably also are negotiating the withdrawal with the Afghan government
Soldiers yes. Planes, yup probably.
All the equipment? Nope.
Are the NATO allies able to do the same? Probably not.
Also moving that many people out by plan is a huge fucking operation.
Yes we should have gotten out 10 years ago. But at the same time just loading up the bare minimum and flying out isn't a simple operation either. And leaves a lot of equipment behind.
If we were going to be out by May 1 the Trump Administration should have started pulling out troops, equipment, and breaking down forward bases probably in November or December.
They did none of that.
We are pulling out but also not leaving a bunch of equipment there for the Taliban either.
This *really* needs to be emphasized; When you pull out you're going to want to make sure that nothing is left behind; no munitions, weapons, electronics, intelligence, papers, fuel, vehicles... none of it.
And that's not the kind of thing you can just pack up in 2 weeks.
If Joe Biden wanted to he could get every US soldier out of Afghanistan within 24 hours
It's just that they probably also are negotiating the withdrawal with the Afghan government
Soldiers yes. Planes, yup probably.
All the equipment? Nope.
Are the NATO allies able to do the same? Probably not.
Also moving that many people out by plan is a huge fucking operation.
Yes we should have gotten out 10 years ago. But at the same time just loading up the bare minimum and flying out isn't a simple operation either. And leaves a lot of equipment behind.
There are supposedly only 2500 troops remaining from the US. And 7000 non-US troops
Now you probably can't get them + equipment out in 24 hours, but it's equally as silly to suggest that it will actually take 5 months
If you are already prepped then 2-3 months to be through and we want to be through.
But probably more likely 3-4 months to make sure you coordinate with allies and the local government.
One thing this does is it gives the Afghan government US forces and support through most of another fighting season to help them maintain Kabul and see if they can fortify. Which may be part of the negotiations going on with the Afghan government now.
If Joe Biden wanted to he could get every US soldier out of Afghanistan within 24 hours
It's just that they probably also are negotiating the withdrawal with the Afghan government
Soldiers yes. Planes, yup probably.
All the equipment? Nope.
Are the NATO allies able to do the same? Probably not.
Also moving that many people out by plan is a huge fucking operation.
Yes we should have gotten out 10 years ago. But at the same time just loading up the bare minimum and flying out isn't a simple operation either. And leaves a lot of equipment behind.
If Joe Biden wanted to he could get every US soldier out of Afghanistan within 24 hours
It's just that they probably also are negotiating the withdrawal with the Afghan government
Soldiers yes. Planes, yup probably.
All the equipment? Nope.
Are the NATO allies able to do the same? Probably not.
Also moving that many people out by plan is a huge fucking operation.
Yes we should have gotten out 10 years ago. But at the same time just loading up the bare minimum and flying out isn't a simple operation either. And leaves a lot of equipment behind.
Trump could and should have got the US out of Afghanistan not in 2020, but in 2017. There would have been a lot of former generals crying on cable tv, and cynical leaks, but that’ll only stop you if you let it. But he was lazy, incompetent, and (like Obama) a pushover for the generals so he just didn’t do much for his entire term. Just a massive waste of 4 years.
People, including this forum as a whole, lapped up the cynical leaks of bullshit verbatim and went into a huge tiff about it. It didn't matter if they were true or not, but Trump was going to look good by ending the wars, and the opinion was "whatever it takes", so there you go.
Trump could and should have got the US out of Afghanistan not in 2020, but in 2017. There would have been a lot of former generals crying on cable tv, and cynical leaks, but that’ll only stop you if you let it. But he was lazy, incompetent, and (like Obama) a pushover for the generals so he just didn’t do much for his entire term. Just a massive waste of 4 years.
People, including this forum as a whole, lapped up the cynical leaks of bullshit verbatim and went into a huge tiff about it. It didn't matter if they were true or not, but Trump was going to look good by ending the wars, and the opinion was "whatever it takes", so there you go.
Trump didn't want to end the war in 2017. We know he didn't because dude was gleeful over dumping a MOAB for the first time in US history.
That having been said If he had actually ended this shit (which he didn't nor did he put serious effort into) then I'd have tipped my hat to him.
If Joe Biden wanted to he could get every US soldier out of Afghanistan within 24 hours
It's just that they probably also are negotiating the withdrawal with the Afghan government
Soldiers yes. Planes, yup probably.
All the equipment? Nope.
Are the NATO allies able to do the same? Probably not.
Also moving that many people out by plan is a huge fucking operation.
Yes we should have gotten out 10 years ago. But at the same time just loading up the bare minimum and flying out isn't a simple operation either. And leaves a lot of equipment behind.
There are supposedly only 2500 troops remaining from the US. And 7000 non-US troops
Now you probably can't get them + equipment out in 24 hours, but it's equally as silly to suggest that it will actually take 5 months
The Biden administration doesn’t think it will take 5 months either. Most of the troops will be out long before the 11th.
Ok?
So constantly talking about as if they don’t plan to start leaving for five months is as disingenuous as it is dumb. They will begin pulling troops out starting May 1st.
If Joe Biden wanted to he could get every US soldier out of Afghanistan within 24 hours
It's just that they probably also are negotiating the withdrawal with the Afghan government
Soldiers yes. Planes, yup probably.
All the equipment? Nope.
Are the NATO allies able to do the same? Probably not.
Also moving that many people out by plan is a huge fucking operation.
Yes we should have gotten out 10 years ago. But at the same time just loading up the bare minimum and flying out isn't a simple operation either. And leaves a lot of equipment behind.
There are supposedly only 2500 troops remaining from the US. And 7000 non-US troops
Now you probably can't get them + equipment out in 24 hours, but it's equally as silly to suggest that it will actually take 5 months
The Biden administration doesn’t think it will take 5 months either. Most of the troops will be out long before the 11th.
Ok?
So constantly talking about as if they don’t plan to start leaving for five months is as disingenuous as it is dumb. They will begin pulling troops out starting May 1st.
Yes but they're basically saying it will take 5 months to finish leaving because that's how long it is from now until then, so what's your point?
Choosing 9/11 as the date is dumb domestic political crap, but I doubt it will make much of a difference in terms of the Taliban's actions or conditions in Afghanistan. Peace was clearly not happening regardless. The Taliban believes (correctly, I think) that they have the upper hand and seems likely to pursue a military victory if US forces leave. Whether the date was in May or September, the civil war was going to continue and possibly (most likely) escalate after US withdrawal.
To say that Biden does not care about peace might be accurate, but wouldn't be any more or less so if he had stuck to the May 1st deadline.
Posts
https://www.thedailybeast.com/us-intel-walks-back-claim-russians-put-bounties-on-american-troops
The folks actually doing the violence still carry the lions share of the responsibility for doing the violence. They could just not bathe their country in blood cause we've said we can't meet the previous deadline.
This is gross.
What information are you basing your conclusion that "we need more time logistically" is bullshit on? Why does this indicate "Biden clearly does not give a shit about peace" exactly?
And what does "This is actually the same stance the US took back during the Soviet withdrawal, despite the Soviets pleading that such a bloody withdrawal would also leave behind many Afghan women who had newly won rights" mean?
The Taliban were not targeting Americans but they have not let up outside of the normal seasonal die down in the winter verse Afghani targets. And have constantly killed Afghan civilians and military personnel this entire time. The Trump treaty only focused on the US and NATO troops and did nothing to actually stop violence verse Afghans.
I’m not even saying that military leadership would be wrong about the consequences, but Zeno’s arrow just isn’t going to get there, especially when the terms of victory have never been clear.
That doesn’t preclude allowing other entities to offer their judgment, but the primary Democratic framework around leaving Afghanistan has been ‘when the military says it’s ok to leave’ for over a decade.
Is there a withdrawal plan that isn't going to lead to violence?
The deal Trump struck didn't even stop the violence. It just meant americans weren't being targetted.
A cynic might suggest it was picked to deprive the Taliban of a date to celebrate the withdrawal independently from celebrating the attack on the Twin Towers.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
Yes the Taliban have largely controlled most of the country for the last 20 years, the average people being terrorized from all sides but especially from the corrupt police and Afghan government, as well as US bombing runs
There is zero reason for US troops to be in Afghanistan and they need to leave ASAP. The 'we need more time logistically' is bullshit because it's the same line we've been hearing for over a decade. We have zero role in Afghanistan except for perhaps as part of a UN-led humanitarian peacekeeping mission. The US exceptionalism that justifies violence and war is disgusting, and bombing people in Afghanistan historically has proven that it doesn't really solve anything. Throwing away an withdrawal date, which was agreed to months ago and a peaceful withdrawal that could have begun on day one, is a slap in the face to the Taliban and the peace process. It shows Biden has no concern for a peaceful resolution in Afghanistan, I'm guessing through callous disregard and wanting to get a political 'win' with a nice Sept. 11th speech that will be all about the US and not about the civilians that have died for nothing
From everything I’ve read about the withdrawal much of the troops will be gone well in advance of 9/11. That date was picked as the very last date forces would be there. They aren’t all planning to hop on a plane the morning of the 11th.
You'll have to explain how so to me.
They did none of that.
We are pulling out but also not leaving a bunch of equipment there for the Taliban either.
Hey now, I'm sure this time Trump made sure work was actually done to back up his rhetoric.
I suspect the armed forces said something like "late august" or "mid-september" or whatever and then the White House picked Sep 11th.
Also, it tells you a little bit about how unseriously people took trump that Biden’s five month delay in the withdrawal is reported breathlessly as confirmation it’ll actually happen
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
To be fair, people breathessly repeated Obama's withdrawal annoucement in 2014 too. And yet.
Almost like it was a bullshit story leaked to kill a withdrawal attempt.
It's just that they probably also are negotiating the withdrawal with the Afghan government
And making sure every last piece of equipment is taken as well. Probably down to the copper wiring in the walls.
Bush: Starts war, loses interest in the war before the invasion is over, proceeded to forget about it for the rest of his term.
Obama: Waste of 8 years.
Trump: Trump
Biden: pulls out in year 1???
Soldiers yes. Planes, yup probably.
All the equipment? Nope.
Are the NATO allies able to do the same? Probably not.
Also moving that many people out by plan is a huge fucking operation.
Yes we should have gotten out 10 years ago. But at the same time just loading up the bare minimum and flying out isn't a simple operation either. And leaves a lot of equipment behind.
Not really equivalent
Iraq was in a non-stop civil war since the invasion and I would say the Iraqi military plus its irregular forces were more prepared for ISIS than the Afghan military is. Afghanistan is more of a differing governmental ideologies fighting with the current government having a weaker hand when it comes to discipline of its forces. The old statement about Afghanistan is we took one of the best irregular armies in the world and made one of the worse regular armies.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-afghanistan-military-idUSKBN29K229
There are supposedly only 2500 troops remaining from the US. And 7000 non-US troops
Now you probably can't get them + equipment out in 24 hours, but it's equally as silly to suggest that it will actually take 5 months
This *really* needs to be emphasized; When you pull out you're going to want to make sure that nothing is left behind; no munitions, weapons, electronics, intelligence, papers, fuel, vehicles... none of it.
And that's not the kind of thing you can just pack up in 2 weeks.
If you are already prepped then 2-3 months to be through and we want to be through.
But probably more likely 3-4 months to make sure you coordinate with allies and the local government.
One thing this does is it gives the Afghan government US forces and support through most of another fighting season to help them maintain Kabul and see if they can fortify. Which may be part of the negotiations going on with the Afghan government now.
The Biden administration doesn’t think it will take 5 months either. Most of the troops will be out long before the 11th.
Ok?
People, including this forum as a whole, lapped up the cynical leaks of bullshit verbatim and went into a huge tiff about it. It didn't matter if they were true or not, but Trump was going to look good by ending the wars, and the opinion was "whatever it takes", so there you go.
Trump didn't want to end the war in 2017. We know he didn't because dude was gleeful over dumping a MOAB for the first time in US history.
That having been said If he had actually ended this shit (which he didn't nor did he put serious effort into) then I'd have tipped my hat to him.
So constantly talking about as if they don’t plan to start leaving for five months is as disingenuous as it is dumb. They will begin pulling troops out starting May 1st.
Yes but they're basically saying it will take 5 months to finish leaving because that's how long it is from now until then, so what's your point?
To say that Biden does not care about peace might be accurate, but wouldn't be any more or less so if he had stuck to the May 1st deadline.