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[US Foreign Policy] is still practicing drone diplomacy

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Posts

  • ButtersButters A glass of some milks Registered User regular
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    One would hope there were some lessons learned from ISIS overrunning the Iraqi security forces that can be applied to this withdrawal.

    Not really equivalent

    Iraq was in a non-stop civil war since the invasion and I would say the Iraqi military plus its irregular forces were more prepared for ISIS than the Afghan military is. Afghanistan is more of a differing governmental ideologies fighting with the current government having a weaker hand when it comes to discipline of its forces. The old statement about Afghanistan is we took one of the best irregular armies in the world and made one of the worse regular armies.

    What I meant was I hope they learned some things that will make it slightly more difficult for a bunch of US-supplied weapons and munitions to end up in the hands of terrorists.

    PSN: idontworkhere582 | CFN: idontworkhere | Steam: lordbutters
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    "Caring about peace" is a useless and nonsensical metric anyway. There's no amount of wanting a peaceful resolution in Afghanistan that is going to actually change any fundamentals of the situation. For ages now it's basically seemed like the only question was when the US was gonna leave and how fucked the Afghan government was gonna be once that happened.

    KaputaOneAngryPossumGnizmoSleepGaddezNo-QuarterFencingsaxElvenshaeLord_AsmodeusGennenalyse RuebenNetscape
  • MarathonMarathon Registered User regular
    Phyphor wrote: »
    Marathon wrote: »
    Gaddez wrote: »
    Marathon wrote: »
    Phyphor wrote: »
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    Solar wrote: »
    If Joe Biden wanted to he could get every US soldier out of Afghanistan within 24 hours

    It's just that they probably also are negotiating the withdrawal with the Afghan government

    Soldiers yes. Planes, yup probably.

    All the equipment? Nope.

    Are the NATO allies able to do the same? Probably not.

    Also moving that many people out by plan is a huge fucking operation.

    Yes we should have gotten out 10 years ago. But at the same time just loading up the bare minimum and flying out isn't a simple operation either. And leaves a lot of equipment behind.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-afghanistan-military-idUSKBN29K229

    There are supposedly only 2500 troops remaining from the US. And 7000 non-US troops

    Now you probably can't get them + equipment out in 24 hours, but it's equally as silly to suggest that it will actually take 5 months

    The Biden administration doesn’t think it will take 5 months either. Most of the troops will be out long before the 11th.

    Ok?

    So constantly talking about as if they don’t plan to start leaving for five months is as disingenuous as it is dumb. They will begin pulling troops out starting May 1st.

    Yes but they're basically saying it will take 5 months to finish leaving because that's how long it is from now until then, so what's your point?

    It may very well take that long to get the largest pieces of equipment and munitions out so that we don’t just abandon it when we leave. Nobody here truly understands what the logistics of the full operation look like.

    Netscapeadytum
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    I dont doubt that Trump did little to make a withdrawal actually happen and it cant happen over night but theres no reason to think it cant be finished before September. Whole thing just feels like that Wish Called Wanda line, "we didnt lose Vietnam, it was a tie!".

    Either way we still wont be leaving the Afghanis alone. The CIA is absolutely still going to be in the country facilitating crimes against humanity and so on.

    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
    Shorty
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    edited April 15
    Marathon wrote: »
    Phyphor wrote: »
    Marathon wrote: »
    Gaddez wrote: »
    Marathon wrote: »
    Phyphor wrote: »
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    Solar wrote: »
    If Joe Biden wanted to he could get every US soldier out of Afghanistan within 24 hours

    It's just that they probably also are negotiating the withdrawal with the Afghan government

    Soldiers yes. Planes, yup probably.

    All the equipment? Nope.

    Are the NATO allies able to do the same? Probably not.

    Also moving that many people out by plan is a huge fucking operation.

    Yes we should have gotten out 10 years ago. But at the same time just loading up the bare minimum and flying out isn't a simple operation either. And leaves a lot of equipment behind.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-afghanistan-military-idUSKBN29K229

    There are supposedly only 2500 troops remaining from the US. And 7000 non-US troops

    Now you probably can't get them + equipment out in 24 hours, but it's equally as silly to suggest that it will actually take 5 months

    The Biden administration doesn’t think it will take 5 months either. Most of the troops will be out long before the 11th.

    Ok?

    So constantly talking about as if they don’t plan to start leaving for five months is as disingenuous as it is dumb. They will begin pulling troops out starting May 1st.

    Yes but they're basically saying it will take 5 months to finish leaving because that's how long it is from now until then, so what's your point?

    It may very well take that long to get the largest pieces of equipment and munitions out so that we don’t just abandon it when we leave. Nobody here truly understands what the logistics of the full operation look like.

    There may be stuff we cant get out in 5 months but there's nothing we cant blow up over a long weekend.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
  • MarathonMarathon Registered User regular
    Marathon wrote: »
    Phyphor wrote: »
    Marathon wrote: »
    Gaddez wrote: »
    Marathon wrote: »
    Phyphor wrote: »
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    Solar wrote: »
    If Joe Biden wanted to he could get every US soldier out of Afghanistan within 24 hours

    It's just that they probably also are negotiating the withdrawal with the Afghan government

    Soldiers yes. Planes, yup probably.

    All the equipment? Nope.

    Are the NATO allies able to do the same? Probably not.

    Also moving that many people out by plan is a huge fucking operation.

    Yes we should have gotten out 10 years ago. But at the same time just loading up the bare minimum and flying out isn't a simple operation either. And leaves a lot of equipment behind.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-afghanistan-military-idUSKBN29K229

    There are supposedly only 2500 troops remaining from the US. And 7000 non-US troops

    Now you probably can't get them + equipment out in 24 hours, but it's equally as silly to suggest that it will actually take 5 months

    The Biden administration doesn’t think it will take 5 months either. Most of the troops will be out long before the 11th.

    Ok?

    So constantly talking about as if they don’t plan to start leaving for five months is as disingenuous as it is dumb. They will begin pulling troops out starting May 1st.

    Yes but they're basically saying it will take 5 months to finish leaving because that's how long it is from now until then, so what's your point?

    It may very well take that long to get the largest pieces of equipment and munitions out so that we don’t just abandon it when we leave. Nobody here truly understands what the logistics of the full operation look like.

    There may be stuff we cant get out in 5 months but there's nothing we cant blow up over a long weekend.

    We probably don’t want to blow it up, which is why it might take longer.

    Netscapeadytum
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    Marathon wrote: »
    Marathon wrote: »
    Phyphor wrote: »
    Marathon wrote: »
    Gaddez wrote: »
    Marathon wrote: »
    Phyphor wrote: »
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    Solar wrote: »
    If Joe Biden wanted to he could get every US soldier out of Afghanistan within 24 hours

    It's just that they probably also are negotiating the withdrawal with the Afghan government

    Soldiers yes. Planes, yup probably.

    All the equipment? Nope.

    Are the NATO allies able to do the same? Probably not.

    Also moving that many people out by plan is a huge fucking operation.

    Yes we should have gotten out 10 years ago. But at the same time just loading up the bare minimum and flying out isn't a simple operation either. And leaves a lot of equipment behind.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-afghanistan-military-idUSKBN29K229

    There are supposedly only 2500 troops remaining from the US. And 7000 non-US troops

    Now you probably can't get them + equipment out in 24 hours, but it's equally as silly to suggest that it will actually take 5 months

    The Biden administration doesn’t think it will take 5 months either. Most of the troops will be out long before the 11th.

    Ok?

    So constantly talking about as if they don’t plan to start leaving for five months is as disingenuous as it is dumb. They will begin pulling troops out starting May 1st.

    Yes but they're basically saying it will take 5 months to finish leaving because that's how long it is from now until then, so what's your point?

    It may very well take that long to get the largest pieces of equipment and munitions out so that we don’t just abandon it when we leave. Nobody here truly understands what the logistics of the full operation look like.

    There may be stuff we cant get out in 5 months but there's nothing we cant blow up over a long weekend.

    We probably don’t want to blow it up, which is why it might take longer.

    Pretty far into the weeds to excuse a withdrawal that is pretty clearly dictated around us minimizing how bad we look.

    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
  • MarathonMarathon Registered User regular
    Marathon wrote: »
    Marathon wrote: »
    Phyphor wrote: »
    Marathon wrote: »
    Gaddez wrote: »
    Marathon wrote: »
    Phyphor wrote: »
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    Solar wrote: »
    If Joe Biden wanted to he could get every US soldier out of Afghanistan within 24 hours

    It's just that they probably also are negotiating the withdrawal with the Afghan government

    Soldiers yes. Planes, yup probably.

    All the equipment? Nope.

    Are the NATO allies able to do the same? Probably not.

    Also moving that many people out by plan is a huge fucking operation.

    Yes we should have gotten out 10 years ago. But at the same time just loading up the bare minimum and flying out isn't a simple operation either. And leaves a lot of equipment behind.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-afghanistan-military-idUSKBN29K229

    There are supposedly only 2500 troops remaining from the US. And 7000 non-US troops

    Now you probably can't get them + equipment out in 24 hours, but it's equally as silly to suggest that it will actually take 5 months

    The Biden administration doesn’t think it will take 5 months either. Most of the troops will be out long before the 11th.

    Ok?

    So constantly talking about as if they don’t plan to start leaving for five months is as disingenuous as it is dumb. They will begin pulling troops out starting May 1st.

    Yes but they're basically saying it will take 5 months to finish leaving because that's how long it is from now until then, so what's your point?

    It may very well take that long to get the largest pieces of equipment and munitions out so that we don’t just abandon it when we leave. Nobody here truly understands what the logistics of the full operation look like.

    There may be stuff we cant get out in 5 months but there's nothing we cant blow up over a long weekend.

    We probably don’t want to blow it up, which is why it might take longer.

    Pretty far into the weeds to excuse a withdrawal that is pretty clearly dictated around us minimizing how bad we look.

    I have no idea what point you’re driving at here. I also don’t agree that the withdrawal is designed to minimize how bad we look.

    SleepHappylilElfButtersElvenshaeGennenalyse Ruebenadytum
  • GnizmoGnizmo Registered User regular
    I dont doubt that Trump did little to make a withdrawal actually happen and it cant happen over night but theres no reason to think it cant be finished before September. Whole thing just feels like that Wish Called Wanda line, "we didnt lose Vietnam, it was a tie!".

    Either way we still wont be leaving the Afghanis alone. The CIA is absolutely still going to be in the country facilitating crimes against humanity and so on.

    This is a line that pops up in my head every time I think on our forever wars. There is this weird truth hiding in the statement as it applies to our current situation that makes everything so much messier. Functionally, the US could stay in Afghanistan forever if we really wanted to right now. There is almost nothing that could be done to force us out. At the same time, we aren't actually working towards anything concrete over there. We just send soldiers to go fuck around in a war zone and come back home for kicks almost. It means when we withdraw our allies are likely to get fucked over, and staying there longer won't change anything on that front. The inability to walk away while still saving face has kept us doing this stupid thing for long enough. Time to rip off the band-aid and offer what support we can for the aftermath.

    Kayne Red RobeStarZapper
  • OneAngryPossumOneAngryPossum Registered User regular
    Five months really doesn’t seem that insane to me, if we work from the assumption that literally no preparation for departure was being made under Trump (which I feel is a safe bet, because he didn’t give a shit and the military didn’t want to do it). I’m not sure how I feel about the world generally deciding to pretend Trump never existed as it pertains to international agreements, but I think it’d be naive to ignore that there was a lot of skepticism around his bullshit even while he was in office - nobody trusted he meant to do or was capable of doing the things he said. The takeaway from that being: I don’t expect that any of the relevant parties were seriously preparing for a May withdrawal.

    Further, we’ve had thousands of people there for decades, often substantially more, and that’s long enough to become a part of the context everyone in Afghanistan has to account for. Disentangling ourselves is more than putting people or equipment on a plane, it’s altering rules and regulations, formal and informal, for everybody in the country, across every sector we’ve had a hand in (it’s most of them!). It’s not just the US that has shit to sort out, it’s every country that built us into their framework that now needs to adjust.

    I think this entire war was futile and generally purposeless from the beginning, but if your goal is actually minimizing harm, a faster departure isn’t necessarily better. If nothing else, time and confidence that we’re actually leaving allows local and international organizations to prepare for what’s coming.

    That’s about the most optimistic take I can have here, and honestly, I suspect I’m falling victim to some of the thinking that’s kept us there for 20 years. I desperately want to believe there’s a way for something not-horrible to emerge from the disaster we created, even as I recognize it’s not going to come from us. We destabilized everything, then created a destructive stalemate that depended on our presence to maintain, and now we’re leaving to destabilize everything again: How could it not be a nightmare?

    SpoitElvenshaeGennenalyse Rueben
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    I imagine the Biden WH also wants to involve the Afghan government in this whole affair to at least some extent. Coordinate with them as the US pulls out and all that. Trump didn't even have them at the negotiating table for the pull-out deal.

  • KelorKelor Registered User regular
    If all of these things need to be in this five month time frame they could also be achieved by completing withdrawals on the 18th of September.

    It’s a weak PR move that hopes that criticism will be dulled by responding with “how could you say this on the anniversary of all these people dying, how dare you disrespect their memories this way!”

    If the next five months are going to be held to the United States should be offering any Afghani resident who wishes to leave a free ticket, green card and stipend when they arrive for several years as recompense for completely fucking over their nation and lives.

    Ideally with some sort of way for the women of families to leave on the down low if they wish.

    Styrofoam SammichGiantGeek2020
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited April 15
    "Withdrawal will actually take about 5 months" and "Sep 11th was chosen for PR purposes" are not in any way incompatible.

    shryke on
    OneAngryPossumDoodmannGiantGeek2020MarathonKayne Red RobeSpoitOghulkSleepFencingsaxElvenshaeLord_AsmodeusBullheadGennenalyse Ruebenkimeadytum
  • OneAngryPossumOneAngryPossum Registered User regular
    I don’t think anybody here is dim enough to overlook that September 11 was chosen for political reasons. That said, yes, a completely open refugee acceptance/transition assistance program would be the absolute least we could offer, and it will never happen.

    DoodmannKayne Red RobeStarZapperFencingsaxElvenshaeLord_AsmodeusMayabird
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    Kelor wrote: »
    If all of these things need to be in this five month time frame they could also be achieved by completing withdrawals on the 18th of September.

    It’s a weak PR move that hopes that criticism will be dulled by responding with “how could you say this on the anniversary of all these people dying, how dare you disrespect their memories this way!”

    If the next five months are going to be held to the United States should be offering any Afghani resident who wishes to leave a free ticket, green card and stipend when they arrive for several years as recompense for completely fucking over their nation and lives.

    Ideally with some sort of way for the women of families to leave on the down low if they wish.

    Well bad news about Biden and refugees,,,

    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
  • ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA mod
    I believe the program set up to give visas to Afghan and Iraqi interpreters is notoriously slow and limited to 50 primary visas per year. I haven’t looked up the current government statements about it, you’re expecting a rescue of American allies in Afghanistan you’d should expect the steps to make that happen to be in the news right about now. Otherwise, congratulations to the lucky 50 and their families.

    smCQ5WE.jpg
    Styrofoam SammichTicaldfjamOneAngryPossumDarkPrimusGnizmoDoodmannMagell
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    Elki wrote: »
    I believe the program set up to give visas to Afghan and Iraqi interpreters is notoriously slow and limited to 50 primary visas per year. I haven’t looked up the current government statements about it, you’re expecting a rescue of American allies in Afghanistan you’d should expect the steps to make that happen to be in the news right about now. Otherwise, congratulations to the lucky 50 and their families.

    More than one horror story about interpreters who got killed waiting for access to the US.

    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
    TicaldfjamOneAngryPossumKayne Red RobeFencingsaxDarkPrimusElvenshaeGnizmoPolaritieMayabirdBullheadButtersMagell
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Elki wrote: »
    I believe the program set up to give visas to Afghan and Iraqi interpreters is notoriously slow and limited to 50 primary visas per year. I haven’t looked up the current government statements about it, you’re expecting a rescue of American allies in Afghanistan you’d should expect the steps to make that happen to be in the news right about now. Otherwise, congratulations to the lucky 50 and their families.

    Hasn't that been the way of it this entire war, no matter the president? I'm pretty sure I've heard the story about this shit for decades now and it seems like it's never been fixed.

  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    I dont doubt that Trump did little to make a withdrawal actually happen and it cant happen over night but theres no reason to think it cant be finished before September. Whole thing just feels like that Wish Called Wanda line, "we didnt lose Vietnam, it was a tie!".

    Either way we still wont be leaving the Afghanis alone. The CIA is absolutely still going to be in the country facilitating crimes against humanity and so on.

    Unless someone has concrete data based on a military withdrawal of comparable size, this whole argument is just a proxy for "I trust that Biden is doing the best he can" versus "fuck that guy, he's a butt".

    As to the specific date, yeah, it's a cynical PR ploy, but the right is going to be howling about Biden's capitulation to terrorism, so if this naked rah rah symbolism maybe takes the edge off, sure, fine.

    Maddie: "I named my feet. The left one is flip and the right one is flop. Oh, and also I named my flip-flops."
    TryCatcherElvenshaeGiantGeek2020TynnanGennenalyse RuebenNo-Quarterkime
  • ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA mod
    9/11 aside (dumb date, shouldn’t have picked it), September is significant in Afghanistan, or as significant as months go. It’s when the biggest drop of violence usually happens, and when the biggest temperature drop happens, starting the winter months of below freezing temperatures. I don’t know if it’ll hold in a year like this, but if you were to trying to pick a time to leave without an immediate increase in violence when you do, September is a top candidate.

    smCQ5WE.jpg
    shrykerahkeesh2000ElvenshaeMonwynIncenjucarForarMillLord_AsmodeusButtersDoodmannOneAngryPossum
  • ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA mod
    Apparently someone did ask an administration official about the special immigrant visas.

    https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/afghans-worked-us-plea-biden-announces-exit/story?id=77098596
    In Kabul on an unannounced visit Thursday, Secretary of State Antony Blinken said he is "committed" to the SIV program, but he has not committed to any reforms to make the process quicker or address the enormous backlog.

    "To the extent that there is demand for that coming from Afghanistan, that's something that I'm going to work on and make sure we're committed to," he said during a press conference.

    The word “committed” is running rampant through the Biden administration, they’re addicted to saying it.

    smCQ5WE.jpg
    Styrofoam SammichMonwynOneAngryPossumGnizmo
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Not a Fictional Character Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    Elki wrote: »
    Apparently someone did ask an administration official about the special immigrant visas.

    https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/afghans-worked-us-plea-biden-announces-exit/story?id=77098596
    In Kabul on an unannounced visit Thursday, Secretary of State Antony Blinken said he is "committed" to the SIV program, but he has not committed to any reforms to make the process quicker or address the enormous backlog.

    "To the extent that there is demand for that coming from Afghanistan, that's something that I'm going to work on and make sure we're committed to," he said during a press conference.

    The word “committed” is running rampant through the Biden administration, they’re addicted to saying it.

    I hope it doesn't become as popular as "Look. <disappointing thing>."

  • LanzLanz Registered User regular
    edited April 16
    It’s like you just want to say to them Your frequent usage of committed is engendering the very doubt and unease the term is meant to allay.

    Lanz on
    waNkm4k.jpg?1
    IncenjucarElJeffe
  • MillMill Registered User regular
    The specific date of 9/11 probably is a PR ploy and one that is meant to stick it to both the Taliban and the GOP. Two shithead groups that would likely get along if they were both made up of shitweasels that practiced the same religion and had the same ethnicity. Anyways, if I had to take a guess the non-idiots probably told Trump, that you don't want to have the withdrawal in May because the assholes that run the Taliban will roll and try to kill everyone that won't conform to their shitty standards. You want to do it as winter is about to set in, when violence is at it's lowest. Also has the boon that some dipshit loose cannon has even less chance of setting of a huge incident. Trump probably settled on may to spite those people. Also it's Donald Fucking Trump, so chances are pretty good fuck all was done to get the ball rolling on any of the shit that was needed to be done to may May 1st happen. IMO a proper withdrawal isn't just removing troops, it's removing everything that wasn't intended for rebuilding Afghanistan and I'd argue given the countries history, that would also include bringing any Afghans that helped us out during the occupation along with us. Like people seem to have forgotten that the country was in a very prolonged civil ware before 9/11 and that like never stopped. Also people that have complaints about the US seem to have forgotten that the Taliban are fucking monsters, have always been fucking monsters and likely aren't going to change anytime soon. So anyone that worked with NATO, probably isn't safe there. Hell, probably a fair number of people that didn't work with NATO, that aren't fucking scum, that aren't safe there. So a withdrawal date right before winter is probably best because people are likely going to want out and that gives them more time to get out and for nations willing to take refugees to get them out.

    IMO, if asshole republicans try to prevent getting people out that helped us, that do want out. Biden ought to just evacuate those people anyways and tell the GOP to eat rancid shit. Tell them that if they try to get them kicked out, he'll make sure they'll spend all of 2022 trying to defend fucking our allies over and leaving them to die. Doesn't fucking matter if their racist, shit base eats that shit up, just need to pursued enough voters that they shouldn't be elected to keep the GOP from winning a majority in both chambers of Congress. This is something I'll pay attention too because Biden shouldn't leave those that helped us high and dry. Sure some of them probably were scummy people, but probably quite a few that helped because they were hoping the US might have been successful at stabilizing things and that didn't happen and they likely do have a target on their back.

    Fencingsax
  • David WalgasDavid Walgas Registered User regular
    Either way we still wont be leaving the Afghanis alone. The CIA is absolutely still going to be in the country facilitating crimes against humanity and so on.

    Pedantic note: Afghans are the people of Afghanistan, Afghanis are the money

    Styrofoam Sammich
  • TryCatcherTryCatcher Registered User regular
    edited April 16
    On the confrontation with China, add one point to the US of A:
    China Backs Away as Philippines and U.S. Send Impressive Fleet to West Philippine Sea
    China's pulled out most of its ships at Julian Felipe Reef.

    In a surprising move, the Philippines sent its strongest response yet against China’s expansion into the West Philippine Sea. Not since 2012 has the Philippines moved its naval forces to the West Philippine Sea to challenge China’s militarization of the area. The move is a highly coordinated response with the United States.

    In March, the Philippines reported the presence of 220 Chinese vessels at Julian Felipe Reef. That number has been reduced to fewer than 10 as of April 13.

    “The Chinese have blinked,” retired U.S. Navy officer Jerry Hendrix told Forbes.
    The Philippines sent four of its most advanced warships to the West Philippine Sea to challenge China’s increasing activities at Julian Felipe Reef. Among the units it deployed are its two brand-new missile-guided frigates, the BRP Jose Rizal and the BRP Antonio Luna. It also deployed warplanes to monitor the area.

    Meanwhile, the U.S. also sent its aircraft carrier USS Theodore Roosevelt to the area. But an American aircraft carrier never travels alone. With every sighting of a U.S. carrier, you can expect it brings along a large escort of submarines, destroyers, and cruisers protecting it from other vessels. This is on top of the dozens of aircraft it carries (it can carry up to 90 aircraft and can accommodate 4,500 personnel).

    The U.S. also deployed the USS Makin Island, a formidable assault ship that can carry up to 20 attack aircraft or stealth strike-fighters. It also has its own escorts of submarines, destroyers, and cruisers.

    Bonus points from Duterte finding out that his new Chinese BFFs that were "totally cool with his human rights violations" just wanted to take over and having to beg to the US for help.

    And it specifically includes a point of why the fight over maritime assets is a big deal:
    In March 2021, the Philippine Coast Guard raised the alarm over the presence of 220 Chinese ships forming a phalanx at Julian Felipe Reef, which is within the country’s exclusive economic zone (EEZ). It was what prompted the coordinated military response from the Philippines and the United States.

    By April, the Chinese vessels have dissipated to a couple of dozen, a clear sign of China backing down in response to the forceful reaction from the Philippines and the U.S.

    China used the same strategy in the past whenever it wanted to militarize a Philippine reef: It would send a large flotilla of paramilitary “fishing boats” to the area to scare away other vessels, then its dredgers would follow, destroying precious corals to create artificial islands over the reef. Julian Felipe Reef would have ended up with the same fate.

    TryCatcher on
  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    Frankly, Duerte at this point should be made to offer public apologies to Biden and Obama since even after he fucked around and found out he still needed the US to drag his ass out of the fire.

    Richy wrote: »
    But I think the resistance I’m getting more has to do with “rawr! Loklar said it! Rage!” than anything else.

    No, it has to do with the fact that you're done nothing but throw lies, blatant flasehoods, and downright dumb statements at us so far.
    TryCatcherTicaldfjamGennenalyse RuebenNo-Quarter
  • ZavianZavian universal peace sounds better than forever war Registered User regular
    I don't get how people think the Biden administration in any way gives a shit about refugees

    if anything, they care about them inasmuch as they despise them and want to keep them out by making it as painful and difficult for them to escape the violence as possible
    The Biden administration has struck an agreement with Mexico, Honduras and Guatemala to temporarily surge security forces to their borders in an effort to reduce the tide of migration to the U.S. border.

    The agreement comes as the U.S. saw a record number of unaccompanied children attempting to cross the border in March, and the largest number of Border Patrol encounters overall with migrants on the southern border — just under 170,000 — since March 2001.

    According to White House press secretary Jen Psaki, Mexico will maintain a deployment of about 10,000 troops, while Guatemala has surged 1,500 police and military personnel to its southern border and Honduras deployed 7,000 police and military to its border “to disperse a large contingent of migrants” there. Guatemala will also set up 12 checkpoints along the migratory route through the country.

    A White House official said Guatemala and Honduras were deploying troops temporarily in response to a large caravan of migrants that was being organized at the end of March.

    Psaki said “the objective is to make it more difficult to make the journey, and make crossing the borders more difficult.”

    https://apnews.com/article/guatemala-honduras-mexico-immigration-border-patrols-917c0fea87c0a807b371da207d34c8cc

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  • ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA mod
    We already have an immigration thread

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  • HonkHonk Honk is this poster. Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    Is there an honor system to these naval fights that aren’t fights? Like does the other guy have to pull back if you bring the most ships?

    They’re not going to shoot at each other. The paramilitary ships probably aren’t gonna start pirating fishing ships - that seems like it would also be war immediately. I don’t really understand how this is thought to work. Why fear an enemy you know can’t do anything.

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  • GiantGeek2020GiantGeek2020 Registered User regular
    Honk wrote: »
    Is there an honor system to these naval fights that aren’t fights? Like does the other guy have to pull back if you bring the most ships?

    They’re not going to shoot at each other. The paramilitary ships probably aren’t gonna start pirating fishing ships - that seems like it would also be war immediately. I don’t really understand how this is thought to work. Why fear an enemy you know can’t do anything.

    The longer you keep them in contact, the more likely someone does do something stupid. A nervous crewman. An accident. An equipment malfunction. A navigation fuckup. And then you have that war you probably didn't actually want.

    3. A surprisingly small number of adults have attempted the largely successful, “Punch the small children to escape” tactic.
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  • electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    Honk wrote: »
    Is there an honor system to these naval fights that aren’t fights? Like does the other guy have to pull back if you bring the most ships?

    They’re not going to shoot at each other. The paramilitary ships probably aren’t gonna start pirating fishing ships - that seems like it would also be war immediately. I don’t really understand how this is thought to work. Why fear an enemy you know can’t do anything.

    Because if they stand down their alert level, but continue to hang out, then you can push the line knowing the other side can't respond effectively. If you wind up hull to hull with a couple hundred fishing boats, suddenly your ships can't even maneuver without having to make a positive decision to destroy some fishing boats.

    Dongs Galore
  • StarZapperStarZapper Vermont, Bizzaro world.Registered User regular
    I don't think it's an honor system so much as one belligerent side trying to push the line as far as they can, short of starting an actual war. It's basically one giant, stupid game of chicken involving massive warships and billions of dollars of equipment.

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  • ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA mod
    Biden brought up the possibility of a meeting with Putin on neutral ground, the Russian response is a non-committal “it’s good that Biden wants that,” and the Finnish president offered to be a host.

    https://english.alarabiya.net/amp/News/world/2021/04/16/Kremlin-spokesman-says-good-that-Biden-like-Putin-seeks-dialogue-

    Not much to expect here, but I guess it won’t make anything take a turn for the worse.

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  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    I feel like Moscow kind of wishes that Biden didn't want that

    Domestically US aggression generally garners government support, US overtures towards working together will undermine Putin's nationalist and security obsessed justifications to the Russian public about his policies i.e. we have to do this, in order to protect against the US and NATO

    I don't think anything will come of it but

  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    Solar wrote: »
    I feel like Moscow kind of wishes that Biden didn't want that

    Domestically US aggression generally garners government support, US overtures towards working together will undermine Putin's nationalist and security obsessed justifications to the Russian public about his policies i.e. we have to do this, in order to protect against the US and NATO

    I don't think anything will come of it but

    I'm kind of the mind that biden needs to make it absolutely clear that Putin has shot his load and it's all downhill from here; Trump's policies are being rolled back, No president is ever going to give Putin or his cronies the benefit of the doubt and there is a heaping load of sanctions coming his way. At this point, it would be in his best interest to write down on a piece of paper all the things he will do to mollify the wrath of the 46th president.

    Richy wrote: »
    But I think the resistance I’m getting more has to do with “rawr! Loklar said it! Rage!” than anything else.

    No, it has to do with the fact that you're done nothing but throw lies, blatant flasehoods, and downright dumb statements at us so far.
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  • AresProphetAresProphet I see a darkness in my fate I'll drive my car without the brakesRegistered User regular
    Gaddez wrote: »
    Solar wrote: »
    I feel like Moscow kind of wishes that Biden didn't want that

    Domestically US aggression generally garners government support, US overtures towards working together will undermine Putin's nationalist and security obsessed justifications to the Russian public about his policies i.e. we have to do this, in order to protect against the US and NATO

    I don't think anything will come of it but

    I'm kind of the mind that biden needs to make it absolutely clear that Putin has shot his load and it's all downhill from here; Trump's policies are being rolled back, No president is ever going to give Putin or his cronies the benefit of the doubt and there is a heaping load of sanctions coming his way. At this point, it would be in his best interest to write down on a piece of paper all the things he will do to mollify the wrath of the 46th president.

    Russia still has enough regional clout that turning them into a pariah is impossible. Petrostates have a way of punching above their weight. Acknowledging where the interests of the U.S. and Russia align isn't mutually exclusive with taking measures to oppose Putin's domestic political oppression and foreign expansionism.

    Putin's days are numbered anyway, pressure to get him out of office isn't necessary. Whoever replaces him will be his appointed successor either way, and what happens from there depend on whatever internal political pressure exists (from the oligarchy, but maybe also the Russian public) to either cooperate or resist EU/US/NATO influence as it stands.

    Total hostility is neither productive now nor a guarantee of future cooperation.

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  • MillMill Registered User regular
    My big worry with Russia, is Russia after Putin. Putin is the kind of fucker to make sure there isn't anyone around that can do the job without him. Some of that is to keep power, if you kill off competent people that could threaten your authority, people don't have an alternative. Some of that is that egotistical shitheads like him have low self-esteem and are threatened by the idea that they aren't needed. Also the guy likely thinks he'll live long enough to see improvements in life extension technology that greatly extend lifespans and he'll get the benefit. Pretty much, I don't see Russia being very stable after Putin goes and well the nation has had a history where the ruling elites tend to make non-ethnic Russians find ways to not be under their boot. Granted, I suppose this wouldn't be a unique concern given that any authoritarian nation with Russia's setup, likely ends up in a spot where the top guys finally dies and there isn't anyone really left that can keep thing going smoothly.

  • Dongs GaloreDongs Galore Registered User regular
    edited April 18
    Honk wrote: »
    Is there an honor system to these naval fights that aren’t fights? Like does the other guy have to pull back if you bring the most ships?

    They’re not going to shoot at each other. The paramilitary ships probably aren’t gonna start pirating fishing ships - that seems like it would also be war immediately. I don’t really understand how this is thought to work. Why fear an enemy you know can’t do anything.

    It's all about the demonstration. In the 1970s, the UK and Iceland had a dispute over cod fisheries. Nobody fired a shot, but the British Navy and the Icelandic Coast Guard would physically ram each other to make the point that the other side should fuck off.

    There's plenty they can do to each other without shooting, from collisions to firehoses to physically getting into fistfights with the other crew. That won't start a war if they're both technically civilian boats.

    Dongs Galore on
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