Which is disappointing when something like Black-ish handles these topics far better.
There's always someone doing a subject better in media, but they're not the same. Black-ish is an obscure tv show and a comedy first and foremost, and I say that as a fan of the show. Falcon and Winter Soldier is one of the higher rated shows in the world and BP is that for film. Disney's hardly fucking around with subjects like this at Marvel, and before this we had Luke Cage.
I think a more accurate assessment would be:
It is unlikely that those who most need more education and direction on the subject would self-select to watch Black-ish, but it's often likely they'll be watching the MCU shows for action reasons. This is why having this in here is so helpful - it's not the selling point of the show to many, but as a major theme it's serving people up what they need to get more perspective. Then, hopefully, they progress to other media that's more of a deep-dive.
Fucks sake these mcu threads suck more often than not.
Instead of doing this, you could just direct the conversation in a way you find more engaging. There's nothing on the wall that says you must engage with every hot take, and if someone in particular is distracting just do the Ignore button.
I think it has more to do with how both MCU threads and the DCEU thread have just constantly bogged down into multiple page long arguments about specific morality aspects of a certain character, that even spend multiple pages discussing the meaning of a specific word, with giant essays on it.
Guess I better get used to people using the show to whine about their pet political causes while ignoring the entire point of it.
Between this and Black Panther, the MCU features the most mainstream anti-racism media in the world. Meanwhile, people are claiming it's "just subtext" and "the real point is that Disney wants you hate Antifa/America/God/Apple Pie/[insert random bullshit here]."
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Which is disappointing when something like Black-ish handles these topics far better.
Oh, definitely.
But this isn't a good thing just for Black Panther and this show on their own, though they are very well-done.
The good thing is that one of the largest corporations on Earth, which only exists to make money, believes these positions are popular enough to be profitable. Now, mere popularity does not equate to change, but it's a hell of a lot better than the alternative.
Also, for this show in particular, I appreciate how it doesn't shy away from Black trauma past and present yet avoids separating Black horror from Black humanity.
There are shows which feel the need to torture Black bodies over and over again, such that it becomes the entertainment itself—torture porn. I'm glad this show isn't so exploitative.
I am AMAZED that this show featured an old black man explain why he hates America. Not just the military or the police or the government but the actual country as a whole. That scene pulled no punches in a way I would never expect from fucking Disney.
I think that's doing Disney a bit of a disservice. They aren't (and haven't) put things like this out under the Disney label, but they've always had other labels for more grown up subjects.
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ButtersA glass of some milksRegistered Userregular
This isn't just a grown-up subject, it's a subject that's highly controversial in mainstream America. Disney owns ESPN which has seen ratings dip from players protesting police violence and has also forced out on-air talent that spoke out too much on social media.
Maybe Disney is taking the approach of multi-branch producer styles to just see whatever makes the most profit by having such diverse intellectual property rights that they smooth out a lot of the busts that come from booms of entertainment, that would be my guess. If Disney+ (with Marvel and Star Wars help) can be more profitable than their ESPN, maybe it exerts force for ESPN to stop being dicks and start playing to the next demographic audience.
So, I hope Falcon & Winter Soldier is a rousing success, like Black Panther before it (if you couldn't already tell from the halloween costume avatar).
This isn't just a grown-up subject, it's a subject that's highly controversial in mainstream America. Disney owns ESPN which has seen ratings dip from players protesting police violence and has also forced out on-air talent that spoke out too much on social media.
None of which necessarily disagrees with my point. They have specific images for specific labels. Some of those are allowed to engage in more controversial or adult materials, some.... aren't.
Maybe Disney is taking the approach of multi-branch producer styles to just see whatever makes the most profit by having such diverse intellectual property rights that they smooth out a lot of the busts that come from booms of entertainment, that would be my guess. If Disney+ (with Marvel and Star Wars help) can be more profitable than their ESPN, maybe it exerts force for ESPN to stop being dicks and start playing to the next demographic audience.
So, I hope Falcon & Winter Soldier is a rousing success, like Black Panther before it (if you couldn't already tell from the halloween costume avatar).
Part of it is absolutely Feige doing what he wants. Look at how much money and value MCU has created - you don't kill the golden goose.
https://www.vulture.com/2021/04/secret-invasion-mcu-tv-show-cast-emilia-clarke.html
Game of Thrones star Emilia Clarke has signed on to join Secret Invasion, the latest Marvel series for Disney+. Variety broke the story, saying that the actress was in final negotiations to work with everybody’s favorite green shape-shifters, the Skrulls. What role she’s playing in the titular invasion is, fittingly enough, a secret.
Meanwhile, Deadline reported that One Night in Miami star Kingsley Ben-Adir will play a leading villain role in the show, and Variety said Oscar winner Olivia Colman is in talks to join the cast as well. Colman’s role on the show is under wraps, but she’d previously told Vulture that she’s always wanted to play a Marvel baddie. “I’m not sure I fit the mold, though,” she said. “Somebody with superpowers would be really fun, but I’m not sure how many middle-aged women they have in Marvel.” The cool thing about Skrulls is that a superpowered baddie can be shaped like anything.
I honestly think you all want to associate them with the alt right because it would make it okay for you to hate/fear them like the show wants you to.
The issue I take with this is that I don't think the show wants me to hate or fear them! They're neither loathsome nor terrifying!
Like, I understand that this take has been around since before the show aired, and I understand that people don't wanna let go of it, but frankly, if the program is the thin end of the wedge, the sucker tip at the end of a tentacle of the sinister, mind-controlling centrist octopus - it's doing a bad job of being that thing. Over and over again, characters (especially Sam, our hero!) acknowledge that the group's grievances are valid - while at the same time, the state authority that the group opposes is shown to be at best incredibly inept ("these supplies have been sitting here for months") and, in this latest episode, apparently just straight-up callous and malevolent. When Sam comes face to face with their leader, the scene ends with him explicitly saying "actually, yeah, you're right, and if you'll trust me, I'd be happy to help you", a ploy that the show doesn't depict as naive or doomed to failure...it only fails, in fact, because Walker bursts in trying to swing pipe.
When the group commits a heinous act, we're shown the desperation and frustration that led up to it and the internal dissension and disagreement preceding and following the act, with characters advancing arguments both practical and moral (briefly, because they're not the point of the show, but they're there). This isn't what a story does when it wants you to fear and hate a group of people. Then, even after Karli has made an abstract ideological commitment to violence, we're shown that she feels horror and shame at the act of actually committing a killing. She doesn't turn evil and gloat; rather, she's so sickened she nopes out of a fight she was about to win. This isn't what a story does when it wants you to fear and hate a character in the story.
The Flagsmashers are antagonists, but the show - to my surprise, tbh - has, in my eyes, bent over backwards to not portray them as the bad guys. On the other hand, the bureaucrats and authority figures who lied to Sam, created John, lied to and created and tortured and imprisoned Isaiah, mismanaged the global crisis, benched Sam and Bucky and kind of sold John out are portrayed as faceless and malevolent. The show isn't even interested in their point of view; it considers them prima facie dumb and bad.
What I'm saying is that if this is horseshoe theory, it's some weak-ass horseshoe theory, man. Or, to put it another way, with a clean and direct declarative statement: no, I do not think that the showrunner is afraid of antifa extremists and i don't think he's engaging in bothsidesism.
Jacobkosh on
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
edited April 2021
Having said all that, I will say that I think the first half of Winky's sentence there is correct. I think some people really want to identify the Flag Smashers with the alt-right because it would uncomplicate the show's politics, and I think that they're way off base. Winky and Tal and the others who've brought this up are absolutely correct that the show is trading in potent imagery, in semiotics, associated with one of the dominant conceptions of "antifa", the Black Bloc, BLM etc in general. The Flag Smashers are idealistic young people who claim to be peaceful but aren't and are redistributing (looting) wealth while wearing black masks and doing mysterious things on the Internet.
Pointing out that that's not anything like the real antifa, or that ":pushes up glasses: actually their outfits resemble La Vangarda Federale from Ecuador in 1971" or whatever is very much missing the point; it's what a great many people right now in the real world think antifa is like. The messaging wasn't chosen at random. Where I disagree is that I don't think the show is invoking that boogeyman specter to inspire us to fear and hate; I think it's doing it to invite us to look closer, and maybe help us (the viewership, not us specifically) arrive at some conclusions about what might actually be behind that specter.
If there's some question about what side the show is on, consider the Bizarro world alternate version of the show, where our heroes are a white lead and a well-behaved, unthreatening black guy who are pursuing a group that wears hoods and robes but the hoods are square so they're definitely not the KKK, right (wink!), and our hero constantly soft-pedals his interactions with them and approaches their leader peacefully and is like "yeah, look, I get it, the minorities are scary and you're 100% right to be afraid of their vegan solar panel-powered gay abortions, but could you just hold off on the lynchings for a while?" Would anyone here be mollified by that, would anyone here view it as merely milquetoast centrist instead of grossly racist? Of course not. You'd be furious, and rightly so. And there are absolutely people on the right who are flipping out about this show; one guy tried to start a rumor that 86% of Disney+ subscribers turned off the show when the cops pulled Sam and Bucky over.
Most will, of course, just use the same reflexive denial that lets them watch Star Trek and X-Men without feeling any cognitive dissonance, but the writer pretty clearly (to me) wants to bet on maybe helping at least a few of them start to assemble the first inklings of a thought.
I'll be perfectly honest and admit I only watched episode 5 last night, and as a result had to seriously update my opinion on how willing the show was to "go there" regarding its themes of racial politics. It was far more explicit in saying what it meant than I had believed Disney was willing to be, and I think that's laudable.
I would say overall I agree very much with Jake's read on the show and its overall political disposition.
All this angst over what the show is really about when it's already obvious.
It's a D&D adventure about a Fighter multiclassing into Paladin.
I'm pretty sure Falcon is a Ranger though. Relies on mobility and long-range attacks for the most part, and has an animal (construct, in this universe) companion. Really high AGI, good WIS, low STR. Surprisingly good CHA for a ranger, though.
I think my sticking point is that I still don't really understand the sub-plot of flag smashers and refugees and supplies and stuff or what the GRC is or what that acronym means or any of that shit.
The rest of the show is very easy to understand, the flag smashers and their plight goes right over my head. I dunno if the show just isn't explaining it well or what.
I think my sticking point is that I still don't really understand the sub-plot of flag smashers and refugees and supplies and stuff or what the GRC is or what that acronym means or any of that shit.
The rest of the show is very easy to understand, the flag smashers and their plight goes right over my head. I dunno if the show just isn't explaining it well or what.
There was literally an informercial thing at the beginning of the third episode for the GRC. It showed exactly what the organization is, what it does, and what it represents at a glance.
Snap happens, increased immigration and general "coming togetherness" happens in the resulting five years causing lots of people to move to places they otherwise wouldn't have been accepted and in general nationalism collapsed.
Then everyone comes back and a majority of people want to go back to how things were, including displacing those tens of millions of people who had new opportunities due to the Snap.
Flagsmashers oppose this reversion to the status quo, but they're in the minority and either due to the serum, or desperation, they're escalating their tactics to outright murder.
GRC is the Global Repatriation Council and they're the ones in charge of managing the transition to the new post-Blip world.
Undead Scottsman on
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MichaelLCIn what furnace was thy brain?ChicagoRegistered Userregular
I'll be perfectly honest and admit I only watched episode 5 last night, and as a result had to seriously update my opinion on how willing the show was to "go there" regarding its themes of racial politics. It was far more explicit in saying what it meant than I had believed Disney was willing to be, and I think that's laudable.
I would say overall I agree very much with Jake's read on the show and its overall political disposition.
Agree, but you misspelled Mancingtom.
I think Disney is doing a great job with this show, but after Wanda, I really just wanted a simpiler buddy cop show. There's been a lot less falconing than i'd like.
But now is definetly the time to cover these topics.
All this angst over what the show is really about when it's already obvious.
It's a D&D adventure about a Fighter multiclassing into Paladin.
I'm pretty sure Falcon is a Ranger though. Relies on mobility and long-range attacks for the most part, and has an animal (construct, in this universe) companion. Really high AGI, good WIS, low STR. Surprisingly good CHA for a ranger, though.
See, I really thought about Ranger, but a couple of things make me put Sam in the "Agile Fighter" box.
1) He got Redwing from someone else, presumably Stark, so I liken it more to a Scroll of Summon Familiar than a true Animal Companion.
2) Other than Winter Soldier, Sam relies mainly on melee combat and only uses ranged attacks like guns/missiles intermittently. There's also the line at the end of Winter Solider, "I'm more of a soldier than a spy."
3) He doesn't really display a lot of Ranger traits like tracking. Although very smart, that's never really been part of skillset.
If I had to stat him out in 5e:
STR: 12-14 (Capable of beating almost every normie, but outclassed by super soldiers)
DEX: 18 (Extremely agile compared to normies, but not as fast as super soldiers)
CON: 10-12 (Doesn't seem particularly fragile or particularly tanky)
INT: 14-16 (Smart enough to maintain his own equipment and quickly adapt his tactics in combat)
WIS: 16-18 (Very wise compared to most of the people around him, is explicitly a counselor)
CHA: 14-16 (Charismatic enough that most accept him as a leader, but not a charmer like Stark)
For others:
I'd argue the super soldier serum in 5e would make all physical stats 20--the peak of natural ability. Mental stats would change according to the character's alignment or pure RP.
Thor and Hulk would be rocking 24-26 strength. Thanos and Carol would be closer to 28 or 30.
All this angst over what the show is really about when it's already obvious.
It's a D&D adventure about a Fighter multiclassing into Paladin.
I'm pretty sure Falcon is a Ranger though. Relies on mobility and long-range attacks for the most part, and has an animal (construct, in this universe) companion. Really high AGI, good WIS, low STR. Surprisingly good CHA for a ranger, though.
See, I really thought about Ranger, but a couple of things make me put Sam in the "Agile Fighter" box.
1) He got Redwing from someone else, presumably Stark, so I liken it more to a Scroll of Summon Familiar than a true Animal Companion.
2) Other than Winter Soldier, Sam relies mainly on melee combat and only uses ranged attacks like guns/missiles intermittently. There's also the line at the end of Winter Solider, "I'm more of a soldier than a spy."
3) He doesn't really display a lot of Ranger traits like tracking. Although very smart, that's never really been part of skillset.
If I had to stat him out in 5e:
STR: 12-14 (Capable of beating almost every normie, but outclassed by super soldiers)
DEX: 18 (Extremely agile compared to normies, but not as fast as super soldiers)
CON: 10-12 (Doesn't seem particularly fragile or particularly tanky)
INT: 14-16 (Smart enough to maintain his own equipment and quickly adapt his tactics in combat)
WIS: 16-18 (Very wise compared to most of the people around him, is explicitly a counselor)
CHA: 14-16 (Charismatic enough that most accept him as a leader, but not a charmer like Stark)
For others:
I'd argue the super soldier serum in 5e would make all physical stats 20--the peak of natural ability. Mental stats would change according to the character's alignment or pure RP.
Thor and Hulk would be rocking 24-26 strength. Thanos and Carol would be closer to 28 or 30.
Let's nerd this thread up!
Eh, I think Redwing being gifted to Sam can be handwaved as a background RP reason as to how Sam got his companion, you could do it either way. I'm also being influenced by comics Sam, where Redwing is an actual falcon, not a drone.
Remember that, even in 5e, you can have a melee-focused Ranger (Drizzt and all that). As Sam is clearly AGI based, I still feel like Ranger suits him better. You could also RP that his tech is what gives him abilities akin to Ranger abilities. His googles give him tracking and insight into enemy capabilities, and his wingsuit can give him all kinds of neat tools. I mean, what is the grappling hook he uses on Walker if not just a tech-flavored Thorn Whip cantrip
All this angst over what the show is really about when it's already obvious.
It's a D&D adventure about a Fighter multiclassing into Paladin.
I'm pretty sure Falcon is a Ranger though. Relies on mobility and long-range attacks for the most part, and has an animal (construct, in this universe) companion. Really high AGI, good WIS, low STR. Surprisingly good CHA for a ranger, though.
See, I really thought about Ranger, but a couple of things make me put Sam in the "Agile Fighter" box.
1) He got Redwing from someone else, presumably Stark, so I liken it more to a Scroll of Summon Familiar than a true Animal Companion.
2) Other than Winter Soldier, Sam relies mainly on melee combat and only uses ranged attacks like guns/missiles intermittently. There's also the line at the end of Winter Solider, "I'm more of a soldier than a spy."
3) He doesn't really display a lot of Ranger traits like tracking. Although very smart, that's never really been part of skillset.
If I had to stat him out in 5e:
STR: 12-14 (Capable of beating almost every normie, but outclassed by super soldiers)
DEX: 18 (Extremely agile compared to normies, but not as fast as super soldiers)
CON: 10-12 (Doesn't seem particularly fragile or particularly tanky)
INT: 14-16 (Smart enough to maintain his own equipment and quickly adapt his tactics in combat)
WIS: 16-18 (Very wise compared to most of the people around him, is explicitly a counselor)
CHA: 14-16 (Charismatic enough that most accept him as a leader, but not a charmer like Stark)
For others:
I'd argue the super soldier serum in 5e would make all physical stats 20--the peak of natural ability. Mental stats would change according to the character's alignment or pure RP.
Thor and Hulk would be rocking 24-26 strength. Thanos and Carol would be closer to 28 or 30.
Fucking rolled stats man, if I was Sam's DM I'd call bullshit.
All this angst over what the show is really about when it's already obvious.
It's a D&D adventure about a Fighter multiclassing into Paladin.
I'm pretty sure Falcon is a Ranger though. Relies on mobility and long-range attacks for the most part, and has an animal (construct, in this universe) companion. Really high AGI, good WIS, low STR. Surprisingly good CHA for a ranger, though.
See, I really thought about Ranger, but a couple of things make me put Sam in the "Agile Fighter" box.
1) He got Redwing from someone else, presumably Stark, so I liken it more to a Scroll of Summon Familiar than a true Animal Companion.
2) Other than Winter Soldier, Sam relies mainly on melee combat and only uses ranged attacks like guns/missiles intermittently. There's also the line at the end of Winter Solider, "I'm more of a soldier than a spy."
3) He doesn't really display a lot of Ranger traits like tracking. Although very smart, that's never really been part of skillset.
If I had to stat him out in 5e:
STR: 12-14 (Capable of beating almost every normie, but outclassed by super soldiers)
DEX: 18 (Extremely agile compared to normies, but not as fast as super soldiers)
CON: 10-12 (Doesn't seem particularly fragile or particularly tanky)
INT: 14-16 (Smart enough to maintain his own equipment and quickly adapt his tactics in combat)
WIS: 16-18 (Very wise compared to most of the people around him, is explicitly a counselor)
CHA: 14-16 (Charismatic enough that most accept him as a leader, but not a charmer like Stark)
For others:
I'd argue the super soldier serum in 5e would make all physical stats 20--the peak of natural ability. Mental stats would change according to the character's alignment or pure RP.
Thor and Hulk would be rocking 24-26 strength. Thanos and Carol would be closer to 28 or 30.
Fucking rolled stats man, if I was Sam's DM I'd call bullshit.
Look, we know Sam isn't an animal companion Ranger because Sam is awesome and cool and that build sucks and is boring.
Disclaimer: I play an animal companion Ranger in my current game and it's largely for RP style. For combat i rely on the fact that our DM allowed people to roll stats if they wanted and most of the rest of the party is atomic supermen.
All this angst over what the show is really about when it's already obvious.
It's a D&D adventure about a Fighter multiclassing into Paladin.
I'm pretty sure Falcon is a Ranger though. Relies on mobility and long-range attacks for the most part, and has an animal (construct, in this universe) companion. Really high AGI, good WIS, low STR. Surprisingly good CHA for a ranger, though.
See, I really thought about Ranger, but a couple of things make me put Sam in the "Agile Fighter" box.
1) He got Redwing from someone else, presumably Stark, so I liken it more to a Scroll of Summon Familiar than a true Animal Companion.
2) Other than Winter Soldier, Sam relies mainly on melee combat and only uses ranged attacks like guns/missiles intermittently. There's also the line at the end of Winter Solider, "I'm more of a soldier than a spy."
3) He doesn't really display a lot of Ranger traits like tracking. Although very smart, that's never really been part of skillset.
If I had to stat him out in 5e:
STR: 12-14 (Capable of beating almost every normie, but outclassed by super soldiers)
DEX: 18 (Extremely agile compared to normies, but not as fast as super soldiers)
CON: 10-12 (Doesn't seem particularly fragile or particularly tanky)
INT: 14-16 (Smart enough to maintain his own equipment and quickly adapt his tactics in combat)
WIS: 16-18 (Very wise compared to most of the people around him, is explicitly a counselor)
CHA: 14-16 (Charismatic enough that most accept him as a leader, but not a charmer like Stark)
For others:
I'd argue the super soldier serum in 5e would make all physical stats 20--the peak of natural ability. Mental stats would change according to the character's alignment or pure RP.
Thor and Hulk would be rocking 24-26 strength. Thanos and Carol would be closer to 28 or 30.
Fucking rolled stats man, if I was Sam's DM I'd call bullshit.
tbf Sam is a pretty high level character at this point and probably has had a lot of attribute increases
I mean he just unlocked a new prestige class and everything
All this angst over what the show is really about when it's already obvious.
It's a D&D adventure about a Fighter multiclassing into Paladin.
I'm pretty sure Falcon is a Ranger though. Relies on mobility and long-range attacks for the most part, and has an animal (construct, in this universe) companion. Really high AGI, good WIS, low STR. Surprisingly good CHA for a ranger, though.
See, I really thought about Ranger, but a couple of things make me put Sam in the "Agile Fighter" box.
1) He got Redwing from someone else, presumably Stark, so I liken it more to a Scroll of Summon Familiar than a true Animal Companion.
2) Other than Winter Soldier, Sam relies mainly on melee combat and only uses ranged attacks like guns/missiles intermittently. There's also the line at the end of Winter Solider, "I'm more of a soldier than a spy."
3) He doesn't really display a lot of Ranger traits like tracking. Although very smart, that's never really been part of skillset.
If I had to stat him out in 5e:
STR: 12-14 (Capable of beating almost every normie, but outclassed by super soldiers)
DEX: 18 (Extremely agile compared to normies, but not as fast as super soldiers)
CON: 10-12 (Doesn't seem particularly fragile or particularly tanky)
INT: 14-16 (Smart enough to maintain his own equipment and quickly adapt his tactics in combat)
WIS: 16-18 (Very wise compared to most of the people around him, is explicitly a counselor)
CHA: 14-16 (Charismatic enough that most accept him as a leader, but not a charmer like Stark)
For others:
I'd argue the super soldier serum in 5e would make all physical stats 20--the peak of natural ability. Mental stats would change according to the character's alignment or pure RP.
Thor and Hulk would be rocking 24-26 strength. Thanos and Carol would be closer to 28 or 30.
Fucking rolled stats man, if I was Sam's DM I'd call bullshit.
Well, to be fair, Sam is far from being level 1, so he's definitely put in a few extra points since he started his adventurer career. Also, are these stats his baseline points, or are we including bonuses from his gear?
I still think they're going to have a swerve, and the skrulls will be the good guys in it. Maybe the invasion will be pink free?
I think it's going to wind up being Fury and the Skrulls infiltrating what they are clearly setting up as an authoritarian, antagonistic government, and/or counter a separate infiltration by a third party (Kree?)
Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion.
The real question; is Bucky still considered a Rogue or is he fully reclassed as a Bard?
Bard? I think Sebastian Stan is perfectly dreamy, but Bucky doesn't strike me as particularly charismatic or intelligent. I would peg him as Fighter/Rogue with WIS as his dump stat, as he has low resistance to mental manipulation. Now Zemo, on the other hand...
That's just his passively high Charisma. We've never really seen him be very good at actively talking anyone out of doing anything stupid or convincing someone to follow him or see things his way. Both Zemo and Sam have been shown to be better than him at that kind of stuff.
The real question; is Bucky still considered a Rogue or is he fully reclassed as a Bard?
Bard? I think Sebastian Stan is perfectly dreamy, but Bucky doesn't strike me as particularly charismatic or intelligent. I would peg him as Fighter/Rogue with WIS as his dump stat, as he has low resistance to mental manipulation. Now Zemo, on the other hand...
Are you kidding? Look at these inspiration dice!
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AthenorBattle Hardened OptimistThe Skies of HiigaraRegistered Userregular
God I hope Wakanda gave Sam a new Redwing as well. I want more Bucky/Redwing interactions.
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I think a more accurate assessment would be:
It is unlikely that those who most need more education and direction on the subject would self-select to watch Black-ish, but it's often likely they'll be watching the MCU shows for action reasons. This is why having this in here is so helpful - it's not the selling point of the show to many, but as a major theme it's serving people up what they need to get more perspective. Then, hopefully, they progress to other media that's more of a deep-dive.
I think it has more to do with how both MCU threads and the DCEU thread have just constantly bogged down into multiple page long arguments about specific morality aspects of a certain character, that even spend multiple pages discussing the meaning of a specific word, with giant essays on it.
I think that's doing Disney a bit of a disservice. They aren't (and haven't) put things like this out under the Disney label, but they've always had other labels for more grown up subjects.
So, I hope Falcon & Winter Soldier is a rousing success, like Black Panther before it (if you couldn't already tell from the halloween costume avatar).
None of which necessarily disagrees with my point. They have specific images for specific labels. Some of those are allowed to engage in more controversial or adult materials, some.... aren't.
Part of it is absolutely Feige doing what he wants. Look at how much money and value MCU has created - you don't kill the golden goose.
Game of Thrones star Emilia Clarke has signed on to join Secret Invasion, the latest Marvel series for Disney+. Variety broke the story, saying that the actress was in final negotiations to work with everybody’s favorite green shape-shifters, the Skrulls. What role she’s playing in the titular invasion is, fittingly enough, a secret.
Meanwhile, Deadline reported that One Night in Miami star Kingsley Ben-Adir will play a leading villain role in the show, and Variety said Oscar winner Olivia Colman is in talks to join the cast as well. Colman’s role on the show is under wraps, but she’d previously told Vulture that she’s always wanted to play a Marvel baddie. “I’m not sure I fit the mold, though,” she said. “Somebody with superpowers would be really fun, but I’m not sure how many middle-aged women they have in Marvel.” The cool thing about Skrulls is that a superpowered baddie can be shaped like anything.
The issue I take with this is that I don't think the show wants me to hate or fear them! They're neither loathsome nor terrifying!
Like, I understand that this take has been around since before the show aired, and I understand that people don't wanna let go of it, but frankly, if the program is the thin end of the wedge, the sucker tip at the end of a tentacle of the sinister, mind-controlling centrist octopus - it's doing a bad job of being that thing. Over and over again, characters (especially Sam, our hero!) acknowledge that the group's grievances are valid - while at the same time, the state authority that the group opposes is shown to be at best incredibly inept ("these supplies have been sitting here for months") and, in this latest episode, apparently just straight-up callous and malevolent. When Sam comes face to face with their leader, the scene ends with him explicitly saying "actually, yeah, you're right, and if you'll trust me, I'd be happy to help you", a ploy that the show doesn't depict as naive or doomed to failure...it only fails, in fact, because Walker bursts in trying to swing pipe.
When the group commits a heinous act, we're shown the desperation and frustration that led up to it and the internal dissension and disagreement preceding and following the act, with characters advancing arguments both practical and moral (briefly, because they're not the point of the show, but they're there). This isn't what a story does when it wants you to fear and hate a group of people. Then, even after Karli has made an abstract ideological commitment to violence, we're shown that she feels horror and shame at the act of actually committing a killing. She doesn't turn evil and gloat; rather, she's so sickened she nopes out of a fight she was about to win. This isn't what a story does when it wants you to fear and hate a character in the story.
The Flagsmashers are antagonists, but the show - to my surprise, tbh - has, in my eyes, bent over backwards to not portray them as the bad guys. On the other hand, the bureaucrats and authority figures who lied to Sam, created John, lied to and created and tortured and imprisoned Isaiah, mismanaged the global crisis, benched Sam and Bucky and kind of sold John out are portrayed as faceless and malevolent. The show isn't even interested in their point of view; it considers them prima facie dumb and bad.
What I'm saying is that if this is horseshoe theory, it's some weak-ass horseshoe theory, man. Or, to put it another way, with a clean and direct declarative statement: no, I do not think that the showrunner is afraid of antifa extremists and i don't think he's engaging in bothsidesism.
Pointing out that that's not anything like the real antifa, or that ":pushes up glasses: actually their outfits resemble La Vangarda Federale from Ecuador in 1971" or whatever is very much missing the point; it's what a great many people right now in the real world think antifa is like. The messaging wasn't chosen at random. Where I disagree is that I don't think the show is invoking that boogeyman specter to inspire us to fear and hate; I think it's doing it to invite us to look closer, and maybe help us (the viewership, not us specifically) arrive at some conclusions about what might actually be behind that specter.
If there's some question about what side the show is on, consider the Bizarro world alternate version of the show, where our heroes are a white lead and a well-behaved, unthreatening black guy who are pursuing a group that wears hoods and robes but the hoods are square so they're definitely not the KKK, right (wink!), and our hero constantly soft-pedals his interactions with them and approaches their leader peacefully and is like "yeah, look, I get it, the minorities are scary and you're 100% right to be afraid of their vegan solar panel-powered gay abortions, but could you just hold off on the lynchings for a while?" Would anyone here be mollified by that, would anyone here view it as merely milquetoast centrist instead of grossly racist? Of course not. You'd be furious, and rightly so. And there are absolutely people on the right who are flipping out about this show; one guy tried to start a rumor that 86% of Disney+ subscribers turned off the show when the cops pulled Sam and Bucky over.
Most will, of course, just use the same reflexive denial that lets them watch Star Trek and X-Men without feeling any cognitive dissonance, but the writer pretty clearly (to me) wants to bet on maybe helping at least a few of them start to assemble the first inklings of a thought.
It's a D&D adventure about a Fighter multiclassing into Paladin.
I would say overall I agree very much with Jake's read on the show and its overall political disposition.
I'm pretty sure Falcon is a Ranger though. Relies on mobility and long-range attacks for the most part, and has an animal (construct, in this universe) companion. Really high AGI, good WIS, low STR. Surprisingly good CHA for a ranger, though.
The rest of the show is very easy to understand, the flag smashers and their plight goes right over my head. I dunno if the show just isn't explaining it well or what.
Then everyone comes back and a majority of people want to go back to how things were, including displacing those tens of millions of people who had new opportunities due to the Snap.
Flagsmashers oppose this reversion to the status quo, but they're in the minority and either due to the serum, or desperation, they're escalating their tactics to outright murder.
GRC is the Global Repatriation Council and they're the ones in charge of managing the transition to the new post-Blip world.
Agree, but you misspelled Mancingtom.
I think Disney is doing a great job with this show, but after Wanda, I really just wanted a simpiler buddy cop show. There's been a lot less falconing than i'd like.
But now is definetly the time to cover these topics.
I had to double check (couldn’t remember Ben Kingsley’s real name) but they are different actors.
Though Trevor Slattery having been a Skrull that just became an actor and randomly got caught up in everything would be hilarious.
See, I really thought about Ranger, but a couple of things make me put Sam in the "Agile Fighter" box.
1) He got Redwing from someone else, presumably Stark, so I liken it more to a Scroll of Summon Familiar than a true Animal Companion.
2) Other than Winter Soldier, Sam relies mainly on melee combat and only uses ranged attacks like guns/missiles intermittently. There's also the line at the end of Winter Solider, "I'm more of a soldier than a spy."
3) He doesn't really display a lot of Ranger traits like tracking. Although very smart, that's never really been part of skillset.
If I had to stat him out in 5e:
STR: 12-14 (Capable of beating almost every normie, but outclassed by super soldiers)
DEX: 18 (Extremely agile compared to normies, but not as fast as super soldiers)
CON: 10-12 (Doesn't seem particularly fragile or particularly tanky)
INT: 14-16 (Smart enough to maintain his own equipment and quickly adapt his tactics in combat)
WIS: 16-18 (Very wise compared to most of the people around him, is explicitly a counselor)
CHA: 14-16 (Charismatic enough that most accept him as a leader, but not a charmer like Stark)
For others:
Thor and Hulk would be rocking 24-26 strength. Thanos and Carol would be closer to 28 or 30.
Let's nerd this thread up!
Eh, I think Redwing being gifted to Sam can be handwaved as a background RP reason as to how Sam got his companion, you could do it either way. I'm also being influenced by comics Sam, where Redwing is an actual falcon, not a drone.
Remember that, even in 5e, you can have a melee-focused Ranger (Drizzt and all that). As Sam is clearly AGI based, I still feel like Ranger suits him better. You could also RP that his tech is what gives him abilities akin to Ranger abilities. His googles give him tracking and insight into enemy capabilities, and his wingsuit can give him all kinds of neat tools. I mean, what is the grappling hook he uses on Walker if not just a tech-flavored Thorn Whip cantrip
We're one anime away from a nerd overload in this thread. Tread extremely lightly!
Is now a good time to point out that Sam is basically Deku with facial hair?
Fucking rolled stats man, if I was Sam's DM I'd call bullshit.
Protags are OP. Call is a Mythic Campaign.
Karli only used 1% of One for All’s power when she punched Battlestar and killed him.
Disclaimer: I play an animal companion Ranger in my current game and it's largely for RP style. For combat i rely on the fact that our DM allowed people to roll stats if they wanted and most of the rest of the party is atomic supermen.
tbf Sam is a pretty high level character at this point and probably has had a lot of attribute increases
I mean he just unlocked a new prestige class and everything
Well, to be fair, Sam is far from being level 1, so he's definitely put in a few extra points since he started his adventurer career. Also, are these stats his baseline points, or are we including bonuses from his gear?
I think it's going to wind up being Fury and the Skrulls infiltrating what they are clearly setting up as an authoritarian, antagonistic government, and/or counter a separate infiltration by a third party (Kree?)
- John Stuart Mill
Bard? I think Sebastian Stan is perfectly dreamy, but Bucky doesn't strike me as particularly charismatic or intelligent. I would peg him as Fighter/Rogue with WIS as his dump stat, as he has low resistance to mental manipulation. Now Zemo, on the other hand...
D3 Steam #TeamTangent STO
That's just his passively high Charisma. We've never really seen him be very good at actively talking anyone out of doing anything stupid or convincing someone to follow him or see things his way. Both Zemo and Sam have been shown to be better than him at that kind of stuff.