Odo is the embodiment of Lawful Neutral. He has no opinions on fascism but, but if the law is fascism then his job isn't to challenge or interpret it to anyone's particular benefit.
Isn't slavish devotion to to law, which is an extention of the state, with no allowance for moral or ethical objection, basically fascism?
I mean, we can always consult famed Cardassian Epic the Never Ending Sacrifice and see…
Oh. Oh. I see.
"Go down, kick ass, and set yourselves up as gods, that's our Prime Directive!"
Hail Hydra
+4
CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
Odo is the embodiment of Lawful Neutral. He has no opinions on fascism but, but if the law is fascism then his job isn't to challenge or interpret it to anyone's particular benefit.
Odo is pro-authoritarian. The way he runs security on DS9 is basically just what Sisko will let him do. He literally says this in one episode where he's like "If you would just let me run this place like the world's most all-consuming police state like I keep asking, none of these bad things would happen".
The show, at least at several points, strongly implies this is a part of changeling psychology. They like order and don't really care that much for things like "freedoms" or "rights".
I wonder how it would affect Changeling culture to know that they only avoided extinction because certain Starfleet officers weren’t slavishly devoted to hierarchy.
0
Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
I think that for most of the series, Odo is shining example of why the Founders got stuck on fascism. He does seem to have a instinct towards justice, fair treatment, and people abiding by the law. He's a decent enough individual that he was the constable under the Cardassians without being considered a collaborator by the Bajorans afterwards, but he definitely picks up more of a taste of fascism from the Cardassians.
Then after being exposed to the Federation, being a solid, dealing with the Founders, having a relationship with Kira, and fighting in the Dominion War, he definitely seems to back off his original attitude of wanting Sisko to give him an iron grip on station security.
Without external influence, the Founders went all-in on fascist control. And because they were so good at it, there was nothing to ever force them to ever think differently. So they may be inclined towards wanting to control everything, but they certainly aren't locked into that. Hopefully, Odo's influence and experience will demonstrate that the Founders have better options than pretending to be gods and keeping a quadrant under their bootheel.
Odo is the embodiment of Lawful Neutral. He has no opinions on fascism but, but if the law is fascism then his job isn't to challenge or interpret it to anyone's particular benefit.
Isn't slavish devotion to to law, which is an extention of the state, with no allowance for moral or ethical objection, basically fascism?
This implies that fascism has any inherent respect for the law as a concept, rather than just seeing it as another tool to concentrate power and as a weapon to be used against the enemies of fascism. Fascists use the law where it is convenient and ignore it where it isn't, I don't think Odo would agree with that in the slightest.
+8
SnicketysnickThe Greatest Hype Man inWesterosRegistered Userregular
They do reference biofilters in the transporters. Mostly when the transporter missed one and a sickness broke out. So I assume their transporters just filter out all known viruses and other dangerous stuff but aren't perfect.
well, just imagine if they were more proactive.
"oh no! what happened to the Ambassador?"
"Let me check... oh yeah, he's in the Biofilter. Hold on..."
*right clicks on the recycling bin icon, 'restore' *
How do you think Riker isn't a petridish of STIs?
Why wrap it up when you can just biofilter yourself afterwards
Odo is the embodiment of Lawful Neutral. He has no opinions on fascism but, but if the law is fascism then his job isn't to challenge or interpret it to anyone's particular benefit.
Isn't slavish devotion to to law, which is an extention of the state, with no allowance for moral or ethical objection, basically fascism?
The Prime Directive applies to warp civilizations as well. The nuances are a bit different and what counts as interference is a lot higher bar, but the non-interference doctrine always applies.
The Prime Directive applies to warp civilizations as well. The nuances are a bit different and what counts as interference is a lot higher bar, but the non-interference doctrine always applies.
I don't think it should, at least not by that name, and is used mostly as a fig-leaf, a "principled" excuse for some to engage in cynical realpolitik ("why should we help, what's in it for us, do they have oil dilithium?") and for others to avoid getting their soft, lily-white hands dirty in any conflict that's even the slightest bit messy ("the most important thing is that we get to keep imagining ourselves as perfectly moral and pure, even when that means doing nothing.") buuuuut we just had a PD discussion, so...
Commander Zoom on
+1
NoneoftheaboveJust a conforming non-conformist.Twilight ZoneRegistered Userregular
Is it wrong to have really enjoyed Season 1 and 2 of Next Generation? Just stepping into season 3 and the first few episodes just seemed to drag in my opinion. And then I get to the episode about the Romulan defector and my faith in the series is restored.
I've probably seen all of the popular episodes of TNG by now, but this rewatch represents my first ever viewing of each episode in sequence start to season finish. I missed out on a lot.
Such a good time to watch Star Trek for me. It is my palate cleanser to all the darker, edgy shows that mistake cynicism for intelligence.
S1 and S2 are not near as bad as some parts of the internet like to pretend. They aren't near as good as the rest of the show and the production values feel a good chunk worse imo but there's still solid episodes in there and overall, aside from some stinkers, it's watchable.
One thing I would say is that S1 and S2 imo tend to contain episodes that are cringe-inducingly bad whereas later seasons' bad episode tend to just be boring.
We restarted season one this morning, and I tell you what, following Farpoint with a cocktail of The Naked Now and Code of Honor was…not a good choice.
I feel like it is now my time to defend season 1&2 of tng, in a friendly way of course! Ok, here we go - Encounter at farpoint = Q, gotta love that rascal, makes up for everything else. Naked Now..Sexy times aside, no other redeeming aspect especially when the android gets the bug. Did I mention the episode had sexy times?
Code of Honor with a troublesome officer exchange program aside, at least for the Enterprise, Riker gets to learn about Klingon and their cuisine. Much respect to be earned, either by Riker's cunning and honor or iron stomache.
I liked season 1&2 because it dipped into moral messages and philosophy a bit more than usual. I think Rodenberry had some good intentions here. But, alas, for writers a story needs conflict and that is hard to do when the Federation is always right and in a perfect utopia. Still, it was fun to see those early seasons dance around interesting philisophical plots.
0
Zilla36021st Century. |She/Her|Trans* Woman In Aviators Firing A Bazooka. ⚛️Registered Userregular
Just got to the DS9 episode where Quark and Odo crash land and have to survive together. Quark screaming "Fascist!" At Odo while they fought was great.
For some reason I always get that episode mixed up in my head with another "two crew members crash a shuttle on a planet" style episode from Voyager, only it's Neelix and Tuvok.
Is it wrong to have really enjoyed Season 1 and 2 of Next Generation? Just stepping into season 3 and the first few episodes just seemed to drag in my opinion. And then I get to the episode about the Romulan defector and my faith in the series is restored.
I've probably seen all of the popular episodes of TNG by now, but this rewatch represents my first ever viewing of each episode in sequence start to season finish. I missed out on a lot.
Such a good time to watch Star Trek for me. It is my palate cleanser to all the darker, edgy shows that mistake cynicism for intelligence.
S1 and S2 are not near as bad as some parts of the internet like to pretend. They aren't near as good as the rest of the show and the production values feel a good chunk worse imo but there's still solid episodes in there and overall, aside from some stinkers, it's watchable.
One thing I would say is that S1 and S2 imo tend to contain episodes that are cringe-inducingly bad whereas later seasons' bad episode tend to just be boring.
We restarted season one this morning, and I tell you what, following Farpoint with a cocktail of The Naked Now and Code of Honor was…not a good choice.
I feel like it is now my time to defend season 1&2 of tng, in a friendly way of course! Ok, here we go - Encounter at farpoint = Q, gotta love that rascal, makes up for everything else. Naked Now..Sexy times aside, no other redeeming aspect especially when the android gets the bug. Did I mention the episode had sexy times?
Code of Honor with a troublesome officer exchange program aside, at least for the Enterprise, Riker gets to learn about Klingon and their cuisine. Much respect to be earned, either by Riker's cunning and honor or iron stomache.
I liked season 1&2 because it dipped into moral messages and philosophy a bit more than usual. I think Rodenberry had some good intentions here. But, alas, for writers a story needs conflict and that is hard to do when the Federation is always right and in a perfect utopia. Still, it was fun to see those early seasons dance around interesting philisophical plots.
You are thinking of Matter of Honor which is solid with some great Riker and Worf bits. Code of Honor is the hella racist one where the planet of space-Africa kidnaps Yar to be the king’s next wife.
Is it wrong to have really enjoyed Season 1 and 2 of Next Generation? Just stepping into season 3 and the first few episodes just seemed to drag in my opinion. And then I get to the episode about the Romulan defector and my faith in the series is restored.
I've probably seen all of the popular episodes of TNG by now, but this rewatch represents my first ever viewing of each episode in sequence start to season finish. I missed out on a lot.
Such a good time to watch Star Trek for me. It is my palate cleanser to all the darker, edgy shows that mistake cynicism for intelligence.
S1 and S2 are not near as bad as some parts of the internet like to pretend. They aren't near as good as the rest of the show and the production values feel a good chunk worse imo but there's still solid episodes in there and overall, aside from some stinkers, it's watchable.
One thing I would say is that S1 and S2 imo tend to contain episodes that are cringe-inducingly bad whereas later seasons' bad episode tend to just be boring.
We restarted season one this morning, and I tell you what, following Farpoint with a cocktail of The Naked Now and Code of Honor was…not a good choice.
I feel like it is now my time to defend season 1&2 of tng, in a friendly way of course! Ok, here we go - Encounter at farpoint = Q, gotta love that rascal, makes up for everything else. Naked Now..Sexy times aside, no other redeeming aspect especially when the android gets the bug. Did I mention the episode had sexy times?
Code of Honor with a troublesome officer exchange program aside, at least for the Enterprise, Riker gets to learn about Klingon and their cuisine. Much respect to be earned, either by Riker's cunning and honor or iron stomache.
I liked season 1&2 because it dipped into moral messages and philosophy a bit more than usual. I think Rodenberry had some good intentions here. But, alas, for writers a story needs conflict and that is hard to do when the Federation is always right and in a perfect utopia. Still, it was fun to see those early seasons dance around interesting philisophical plots.
You are thinking of Matter of Honor which is solid with some great Riker and Worf bits. Code of Honor is the hella racist one where the planet of space-Africa kidnaps Yar to be the king’s next wife.
Oh, that one... ugh. Yeah that one is a bit ugly and very dated sadly.
Odo is the embodiment of Lawful Neutral. He has no opinions on fascism but, but if the law is fascism then his job isn't to challenge or interpret it to anyone's particular benefit.
I actually disagree, Odo complains vigorously about the fact that people have rights against search and seizure under Federation law.
He thinks everyone should be made to be orderly
If not for all the ethnic cleansing he actually prefers Cardassian justice. After all, if Odo arrests someone, they're definitely guilty right?
so yeah he's not technically a fascist, because he doesn't give a shit about the organization of the state and he hates no particular ethnic group, but he still goes in the acab pile
Is it wrong to have really enjoyed Season 1 and 2 of Next Generation? Just stepping into season 3 and the first few episodes just seemed to drag in my opinion. And then I get to the episode about the Romulan defector and my faith in the series is restored.
I've probably seen all of the popular episodes of TNG by now, but this rewatch represents my first ever viewing of each episode in sequence start to season finish. I missed out on a lot.
Such a good time to watch Star Trek for me. It is my palate cleanser to all the darker, edgy shows that mistake cynicism for intelligence.
S1 and S2 are not near as bad as some parts of the internet like to pretend. They aren't near as good as the rest of the show and the production values feel a good chunk worse imo but there's still solid episodes in there and overall, aside from some stinkers, it's watchable.
One thing I would say is that S1 and S2 imo tend to contain episodes that are cringe-inducingly bad whereas later seasons' bad episode tend to just be boring.
We restarted season one this morning, and I tell you what, following Farpoint with a cocktail of The Naked Now and Code of Honor was…not a good choice.
I feel like it is now my time to defend season 1&2 of tng, in a friendly way of course! Ok, here we go - Encounter at farpoint = Q, gotta love that rascal, makes up for everything else. Naked Now..Sexy times aside, no other redeeming aspect especially when the android gets the bug. Did I mention the episode had sexy times?
Code of Honor with a troublesome officer exchange program aside, at least for the Enterprise, Riker gets to learn about Klingon and their cuisine. Much respect to be earned, either by Riker's cunning and honor or iron stomache.
I liked season 1&2 because it dipped into moral messages and philosophy a bit more than usual. I think Rodenberry had some good intentions here. But, alas, for writers a story needs conflict and that is hard to do when the Federation is always right and in a perfect utopia. Still, it was fun to see those early seasons dance around interesting philisophical plots.
You are thinking of Matter of Honor which is solid with some great Riker and Worf bits. Code of Honor is the hella racist one where the planet of space-Africa kidnaps Yar to be the king’s next wife.
Oh, that one... ugh. Yeah that one is a bit ugly and very dated sadly.
Odo is the embodiment of Lawful Neutral. He has no opinions on fascism but, but if the law is fascism then his job isn't to challenge or interpret it to anyone's particular benefit.
I actually disagree, Odo complains vigorously about the fact that people have rights against search and seizure under Federation law.
He thinks everyone should be made to be orderly
If not for all the ethnic cleansing he actually prefers Cardassian justice. After all, if Odo arrests someone, they're definitely guilty right?
so yeah he's not technically a fascist, because he doesn't give a shit about the organization of the state and he hates no particular ethnic group, but he still goes in the acab pile
I mean? No? He's literally the one who fought back against Worf doing the "no rights, this is my station" type of security? He does want order, he would prefer he could force it, but he ABSOLUTELY does not. If that were the police we're dealing with in the ACAB pile, things would be a goddamned sight better. Him having vestiges of his personality have traits of fascism would also be completely understandable when he grew up and was employed in a fascist state. The fact that he's grown as much as he has over the series is kind of the point.
0
JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
Odo is the embodiment of Lawful Neutral. He has no opinions on fascism but, but if the law is fascism then his job isn't to challenge or interpret it to anyone's particular benefit.
I actually disagree, Odo complains vigorously about the fact that people have rights against search and seizure under Federation law.
He thinks everyone should be made to be orderly
If not for all the ethnic cleansing he actually prefers Cardassian justice. After all, if Odo arrests someone, they're definitely guilty right?
so yeah he's not technically a fascist, because he doesn't give a shit about the organization of the state and he hates no particular ethnic group, but he still goes in the acab pile
I mean? No? He's literally the one who fought back against Worf doing the "no rights, this is my station" type of security? He does want order, he would prefer he could force it, but he ABSOLUTELY does not. If that were the police we're dealing with in the ACAB pile, things would be a goddamned sight better. Him having vestiges of his personality have traits of fascism would also be completely understandable when he grew up and was employed in a fascist state. The fact that he's grown as much as he has over the series is kind of the point.
I don't think differences in policing philosophies come up even once in the Worf episode, though. That story was about a guy who's had a job change not really taking it seriously and still trying to horn in on his old responsibilities. It was an office politics story (like a lot of Star Trek, imo!), not a parable about rights or anything.
Odo definitely, at least in the early seasons, sees rights and civil protections as whimsical "solid" nonsense. He is committed to justice and fairness at a personal level but never questions that he's the guy who knows how, and ought, to dole those things out. He might not be a fascist, if we go by the definition that includes things like ethnic unity, fear of the other, etc, but he's very authoritarian.
Is it wrong to have really enjoyed Season 1 and 2 of Next Generation? Just stepping into season 3 and the first few episodes just seemed to drag in my opinion. And then I get to the episode about the Romulan defector and my faith in the series is restored.
I've probably seen all of the popular episodes of TNG by now, but this rewatch represents my first ever viewing of each episode in sequence start to season finish. I missed out on a lot.
Such a good time to watch Star Trek for me. It is my palate cleanser to all the darker, edgy shows that mistake cynicism for intelligence.
S1 and S2 are not near as bad as some parts of the internet like to pretend. They aren't near as good as the rest of the show and the production values feel a good chunk worse imo but there's still solid episodes in there and overall, aside from some stinkers, it's watchable.
One thing I would say is that S1 and S2 imo tend to contain episodes that are cringe-inducingly bad whereas later seasons' bad episode tend to just be boring.
We restarted season one this morning, and I tell you what, following Farpoint with a cocktail of The Naked Now and Code of Honor was…not a good choice.
I feel like it is now my time to defend season 1&2 of tng, in a friendly way of course! Ok, here we go - Encounter at farpoint = Q, gotta love that rascal, makes up for everything else. Naked Now..Sexy times aside, no other redeeming aspect especially when the android gets the bug. Did I mention the episode had sexy times?
Code of Honor with a troublesome officer exchange program aside, at least for the Enterprise, Riker gets to learn about Klingon and their cuisine. Much respect to be earned, either by Riker's cunning and honor or iron stomache.
I liked season 1&2 because it dipped into moral messages and philosophy a bit more than usual. I think Rodenberry had some good intentions here. But, alas, for writers a story needs conflict and that is hard to do when the Federation is always right and in a perfect utopia. Still, it was fun to see those early seasons dance around interesting philisophical plots.
You are thinking of Matter of Honor which is solid with some great Riker and Worf bits. Code of Honor is the hella racist one where the planet of space-Africa kidnaps Yar to be the king’s next wife.
Oh, that one... ugh. Yeah that one is a bit ugly and very dated sadly.
It was dated a few decades before it was written.
The moment of airing a curious paleontologist went and carbon dated it and found it tracked to the late Cretaceous.
Just got to the DS9 episode where Quark and Odo crash land and have to survive together. Quark screaming "Fascist!" At Odo while they fought was great.
For some reason I always get that episode mixed up in my head with another "two crew members crash a shuttle on a planet" style episode from Voyager, only it's Neelix and Tuvok.
It's a pretty common script trope, anyhow.
I never noticed how weird Star Trek footwear is until Odo breaks his leg and he's what looks like an even flimsier silver Ugg Boot.
Now I’m thinking back to our earlier “What if DS9 and B5 crossed over” talk and thinking I want a conversation between G’Kar and Sisko about becoming [B5 spoilers more than DS9]
religious figures they were no where near ready to become for their communities
Now I’m thinking back to our earlier “What if DS9 and B5 crossed over” talk and thinking I want a conversation between G’Kar and Sisko about becoming [B5 spoilers more than DS9]
religious figures they were no where near ready to become for their communities
did we cover that ground already back then?
That'd be cool.
Garak and Londo talking about ANYTHING would be awesome.
0
RingoHe/Hima distinct lack of substanceRegistered Userregular
Odo is the embodiment of Lawful Neutral. He has no opinions on fascism but, but if the law is fascism then his job isn't to challenge or interpret it to anyone's particular benefit.
I actually disagree, Odo complains vigorously about the fact that people have rights against search and seizure under Federation law.
He thinks everyone should be made to be orderly
If not for all the ethnic cleansing he actually prefers Cardassian justice. After all, if Odo arrests someone, they're definitely guilty right?
so yeah he's not technically a fascist, because he doesn't give a shit about the organization of the state and he hates no particular ethnic group, but he still goes in the acab pile
S5e8 "Things Past" is directly about this. Odo failed but he realized he had failed and at least attempted to grow from that. Odo's definitely ACAB, but that's because it's All Cops, and Odo is definitely a cop - but he's a character who could perhaps abandon being a cop if the show held those values. In the end Odo is not there to harm people and abuse his authority, which is why he could walk away from it.
Yes, the Prime Directive is designed to create exactly that kind of conflict for the protagonists.
But how does it even apply? (Leaving aside that I find the results rather enraging). Humanity isn’t a pre-warp civilisation.
In the Disco episode the colonists were taken from Earth just before the development of warp and they know nothing about the larger galaxy.
Nominally the directive applies to either warp or non-warp capable. Humanity itself is a warp capable civilisation in any case. Go pick your people off that rock and stop letting them die of cholera.
Odo is absolutely authoritarian, but I don't think it's fair to call him fascist. I don't think there is a real world parallel for what he is, he's something that could only exist in fiction, like a truly benevolent dictator or something. He does truly believe in universal justice and will practice what he preaches, there's no example of authoritarianism or dictatorship/fascism that has existed IRL that hasn't been a thinly veiled exercise in concentrating power and wealth in the hands of the few at the expense of the many. Whatever values or philosophies they preach is really just marketing to make the masses feel better about starving while the great leader gets another gold toilet or something.
Odo on the other hand values order in a way even other changelings don't, his sense of order involves the same rules applying to the weak and the powerful alike, offenders receiving (at least what he thinks is) a just and proportionate punishment and just generally living his life by a constant moral code even when it isn't convenient. Every other changeling we see in the show doesn't care about order as much as they care about achieving absolute power as a means to ensure their own safety. They are very akin to real life fascists in the sense they think any kind of law is only for controlling the lesser beings and the idea of it acting as a check on their own autonomy is not something that even occurs to them.
Odo misses the forest for the trees sometimes, but most of his arcs involve him realising that real justice can be a nuanced thing sometimes.
Meanwhile half the crew of Voyager dies and Harry Kim is still somehow stuck at ensign for 7 years.
I think Geordi and Worf are the only ones but it's a bit weird how promotions on TNG are never mentioned at all outside of Generations. They're just something that happens between seasons that the casual viewer will never notice.
And about Odo, he is definitely a stickler for order. There is an episode where Jadzia pranks him by moving stuff in his quarters a couple of inches out of place and he not only notices, but forces her to move it back as punishment.
That seems to be a trait to the changelings, being mutable beings without a set form would crave an orderly world where everything is strictly controlled. Does make their story of being persecuted for being different a bit suspect though. Neat freaks that take offense everytime a Solid is a bit messy can't be popular. Also even Laas, who has never met the Dominion is kind of a arrogant dick to the Solids he meets.
The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
course then its real weird that the ships Doctor and Councillor both outrank Data it's XO
Remember that medical (and presumably psych) ranks are usually non-Line, and thus wouldn't be strictly speaking in the chain of command. It gets complicated when they do things like having Beverly and Troi take some command time and get rated for command, but still.
And about Odo, he is definitely a stickler for order. There is an episode where Jadzia pranks him by moving stuff in his quarters a couple of inches out of place and he not only notices, but forces her to move it back as punishment.
That seems to be a trait to the changelings, being mutable beings without a set form would crave an orderly world where everything is strictly controlled. Does make their story of being persecuted for being different a bit suspect though. Neat freaks that take offense everytime a Solid is a bit messy can't be popular. Also even Laas, who has never met the Dominion is kind of a arrogant dick to the Solids he meets.
Change Leader only mentions their alleged past persecution when trying to manipulate Odo, so I take it with a heap of salt.
Odo is absolutely authoritarian, but I don't think it's fair to call him fascist. I don't think there is a real world parallel for what he is, he's something that could only exist in fiction, like a truly benevolent dictator or something. He does truly believe in universal justice and will practice what he preaches, there's no example of authoritarianism or dictatorship/fascism that has existed IRL that hasn't been a thinly veiled exercise in concentrating power and wealth in the hands of the few at the expense of the many. Whatever values or philosophies they preach is really just marketing to make the masses feel better about starving while the great leader gets another gold toilet or something.
Odo on the other hand values order in a way even other changelings don't, his sense of order involves the same rules applying to the weak and the powerful alike, offenders receiving (at least what he thinks is) a just and proportionate punishment and just generally living his life by a constant moral code even when it isn't convenient. Every other changeling we see in the show doesn't care about order as much as they care about achieving absolute power as a means to ensure their own safety. They are very akin to real life fascists in the sense they think any kind of law is only for controlling the lesser beings and the idea of it acting as a check on their own autonomy is not something that even occurs to them.
Odo misses the forest for the trees sometimes, but most of his arcs involve him realising that real justice can be a nuanced thing sometimes.
I think Odo and the other changelings are the same on their desire for order. The actual difference is Odo sees solids as being actual people who are his equals. The Founders view solids kinda like animals.
Odo is absolutely authoritarian, but I don't think it's fair to call him fascist. I don't think there is a real world parallel for what he is, he's something that could only exist in fiction, like a truly benevolent dictator or something. He does truly believe in universal justice and will practice what he preaches, there's no example of authoritarianism or dictatorship/fascism that has existed IRL that hasn't been a thinly veiled exercise in concentrating power and wealth in the hands of the few at the expense of the many. Whatever values or philosophies they preach is really just marketing to make the masses feel better about starving while the great leader gets another gold toilet or something.
Odo on the other hand values order in a way even other changelings don't, his sense of order involves the same rules applying to the weak and the powerful alike, offenders receiving (at least what he thinks is) a just and proportionate punishment and just generally living his life by a constant moral code even when it isn't convenient. Every other changeling we see in the show doesn't care about order as much as they care about achieving absolute power as a means to ensure their own safety. They are very akin to real life fascists in the sense they think any kind of law is only for controlling the lesser beings and the idea of it acting as a check on their own autonomy is not something that even occurs to them.
Odo misses the forest for the trees sometimes, but most of his arcs involve him realising that real justice can be a nuanced thing sometimes.
I think Odo and the other changelings are the same on their desire for order. The actual difference is Odo sees solids as being actual people who are his equals. The Founders view solids kinda like animals.
If even that. I keep thinking of "p-zombies" - things that move and act and talk like real people, but don't actually have feelings or consciousness. They are not of the Body Great Link.
(It seems to me that the collective entity that is the Founders would naturally divide the observed universe into "Us" and "Not Us.")
Odo is absolutely authoritarian, but I don't think it's fair to call him fascist. I don't think there is a real world parallel for what he is, he's something that could only exist in fiction, like a truly benevolent dictator or something. He does truly believe in universal justice and will practice what he preaches, there's no example of authoritarianism or dictatorship/fascism that has existed IRL that hasn't been a thinly veiled exercise in concentrating power and wealth in the hands of the few at the expense of the many. Whatever values or philosophies they preach is really just marketing to make the masses feel better about starving while the great leader gets another gold toilet or something.
Odo on the other hand values order in a way even other changelings don't, his sense of order involves the same rules applying to the weak and the powerful alike, offenders receiving (at least what he thinks is) a just and proportionate punishment and just generally living his life by a constant moral code even when it isn't convenient. Every other changeling we see in the show doesn't care about order as much as they care about achieving absolute power as a means to ensure their own safety. They are very akin to real life fascists in the sense they think any kind of law is only for controlling the lesser beings and the idea of it acting as a check on their own autonomy is not something that even occurs to them.
Odo misses the forest for the trees sometimes, but most of his arcs involve him realising that real justice can be a nuanced thing sometimes.
I think Odo and the other changelings are the same on their desire for order. The actual difference is Odo sees solids as being actual people who are his equals. The Founders view solids kinda like animals.
Dominion changelings think nothing about turning an entire planet into Mad Max land so long as it ceases to be a possible threat to them. Odo gets upset when his couch is an inch out of place.
Odo is absolutely authoritarian, but I don't think it's fair to call him fascist. I don't think there is a real world parallel for what he is, he's something that could only exist in fiction, like a truly benevolent dictator or something. He does truly believe in universal justice and will practice what he preaches, there's no example of authoritarianism or dictatorship/fascism that has existed IRL that hasn't been a thinly veiled exercise in concentrating power and wealth in the hands of the few at the expense of the many. Whatever values or philosophies they preach is really just marketing to make the masses feel better about starving while the great leader gets another gold toilet or something.
Odo on the other hand values order in a way even other changelings don't, his sense of order involves the same rules applying to the weak and the powerful alike, offenders receiving (at least what he thinks is) a just and proportionate punishment and just generally living his life by a constant moral code even when it isn't convenient. Every other changeling we see in the show doesn't care about order as much as they care about achieving absolute power as a means to ensure their own safety. They are very akin to real life fascists in the sense they think any kind of law is only for controlling the lesser beings and the idea of it acting as a check on their own autonomy is not something that even occurs to them.
Odo misses the forest for the trees sometimes, but most of his arcs involve him realising that real justice can be a nuanced thing sometimes.
I think Odo and the other changelings are the same on their desire for order. The actual difference is Odo sees solids as being actual people who are his equals. The Founders view solids kinda like animals.
Dominion changelings think nothing about turning an entire planet into Mad Max land so long as it ceases to be a possible threat to them. Odo gets upset when his couch is an inch out of place.
Yes, but doing that is in service to their greater goal of galactic order.
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I mean, we can always consult famed Cardassian Epic the Never Ending Sacrifice and see…
Oh. Oh. I see.
Wait, wasn't one of Tuvix's defenses for not being turned back that both Tuvok and Neelix preferred being one person?
Odo is pro-authoritarian. The way he runs security on DS9 is basically just what Sisko will let him do. He literally says this in one episode where he's like "If you would just let me run this place like the world's most all-consuming police state like I keep asking, none of these bad things would happen".
The show, at least at several points, strongly implies this is a part of changeling psychology. They like order and don't really care that much for things like "freedoms" or "rights".
Then after being exposed to the Federation, being a solid, dealing with the Founders, having a relationship with Kira, and fighting in the Dominion War, he definitely seems to back off his original attitude of wanting Sisko to give him an iron grip on station security.
Without external influence, the Founders went all-in on fascist control. And because they were so good at it, there was nothing to ever force them to ever think differently. So they may be inclined towards wanting to control everything, but they certainly aren't locked into that. Hopefully, Odo's influence and experience will demonstrate that the Founders have better options than pretending to be gods and keeping a quadrant under their bootheel.
This implies that fascism has any inherent respect for the law as a concept, rather than just seeing it as another tool to concentrate power and as a weapon to be used against the enemies of fascism. Fascists use the law where it is convenient and ignore it where it isn't, I don't think Odo would agree with that in the slightest.
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In the Disco episode the colonists were taken from Earth just before the development of warp and they know nothing about the larger galaxy.
No, that's Legalism
I don't think it should, at least not by that name, and is used mostly as a fig-leaf, a "principled" excuse for some to engage in cynical realpolitik ("why should we help, what's in it for us, do they have oil dilithium?") and for others to avoid getting their soft, lily-white hands dirty in any conflict that's even the slightest bit messy ("the most important thing is that we get to keep imagining ourselves as perfectly moral and pure, even when that means doing nothing.") buuuuut we just had a PD discussion, so...
I feel like it is now my time to defend season 1&2 of tng, in a friendly way of course! Ok, here we go - Encounter at farpoint = Q, gotta love that rascal, makes up for everything else. Naked Now..Sexy times aside, no other redeeming aspect especially when the android gets the bug. Did I mention the episode had sexy times?
Code of Honor with a troublesome officer exchange program aside, at least for the Enterprise, Riker gets to learn about Klingon and their cuisine. Much respect to be earned, either by Riker's cunning and honor or iron stomache.
I liked season 1&2 because it dipped into moral messages and philosophy a bit more than usual. I think Rodenberry had some good intentions here. But, alas, for writers a story needs conflict and that is hard to do when the Federation is always right and in a perfect utopia. Still, it was fun to see those early seasons dance around interesting philisophical plots.
It's a pretty common script trope, anyhow.
You are thinking of Matter of Honor which is solid with some great Riker and Worf bits. Code of Honor is the hella racist one where the planet of space-Africa kidnaps Yar to be the king’s next wife.
"The only real politics I knew was that if a guy liked Hitler, I’d beat the stuffing out of him and that would be it." -- Jack Kirby
Oh, that one... ugh. Yeah that one is a bit ugly and very dated sadly.
I actually disagree, Odo complains vigorously about the fact that people have rights against search and seizure under Federation law.
He thinks everyone should be made to be orderly
If not for all the ethnic cleansing he actually prefers Cardassian justice. After all, if Odo arrests someone, they're definitely guilty right?
so yeah he's not technically a fascist, because he doesn't give a shit about the organization of the state and he hates no particular ethnic group, but he still goes in the acab pile
It was dated a few decades before it was written.
I mean? No? He's literally the one who fought back against Worf doing the "no rights, this is my station" type of security? He does want order, he would prefer he could force it, but he ABSOLUTELY does not. If that were the police we're dealing with in the ACAB pile, things would be a goddamned sight better. Him having vestiges of his personality have traits of fascism would also be completely understandable when he grew up and was employed in a fascist state. The fact that he's grown as much as he has over the series is kind of the point.
I don't think differences in policing philosophies come up even once in the Worf episode, though. That story was about a guy who's had a job change not really taking it seriously and still trying to horn in on his old responsibilities. It was an office politics story (like a lot of Star Trek, imo!), not a parable about rights or anything.
Odo definitely, at least in the early seasons, sees rights and civil protections as whimsical "solid" nonsense. He is committed to justice and fairness at a personal level but never questions that he's the guy who knows how, and ought, to dole those things out. He might not be a fascist, if we go by the definition that includes things like ethnic unity, fear of the other, etc, but he's very authoritarian.
The moment of airing a curious paleontologist went and carbon dated it and found it tracked to the late Cretaceous.
I never noticed how weird Star Trek footwear is until Odo breaks his leg and he's what looks like an even flimsier silver Ugg Boot.
did we cover that ground already back then?
That'd be cool.
Garak and Londo talking about ANYTHING would be awesome.
S5e8 "Things Past" is directly about this. Odo failed but he realized he had failed and at least attempted to grow from that. Odo's definitely ACAB, but that's because it's All Cops, and Odo is definitely a cop - but he's a character who could perhaps abandon being a cop if the show held those values. In the end Odo is not there to harm people and abuse his authority, which is why he could walk away from it.
Nominally the directive applies to either warp or non-warp capable. Humanity itself is a warp capable civilisation in any case. Go pick your people off that rock and stop letting them die of cholera.
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Odo on the other hand values order in a way even other changelings don't, his sense of order involves the same rules applying to the weak and the powerful alike, offenders receiving (at least what he thinks is) a just and proportionate punishment and just generally living his life by a constant moral code even when it isn't convenient. Every other changeling we see in the show doesn't care about order as much as they care about achieving absolute power as a means to ensure their own safety. They are very akin to real life fascists in the sense they think any kind of law is only for controlling the lesser beings and the idea of it acting as a check on their own autonomy is not something that even occurs to them.
Odo misses the forest for the trees sometimes, but most of his arcs involve him realising that real justice can be a nuanced thing sometimes.
Geordi S2: Chief Engineer, Lt.
Geordi S3: Chief Engineer, Lt. Commander
Meanwhile half the crew of Voyager dies and Harry Kim is still somehow stuck at ensign for 7 years.
I think Geordi and Worf are the only ones but it's a bit weird how promotions on TNG are never mentioned at all outside of Generations. They're just something that happens between seasons that the casual viewer will never notice.
course then its real weird that the ships Doctor and Councillor both outrank Data it's XO
Data is the Second Officer and Ops Division commander.
Worf is both Tactical and Security division commander. A job that on a major starship should be at least Lt Commander position.
That seems to be a trait to the changelings, being mutable beings without a set form would crave an orderly world where everything is strictly controlled. Does make their story of being persecuted for being different a bit suspect though. Neat freaks that take offense everytime a Solid is a bit messy can't be popular. Also even Laas, who has never met the Dominion is kind of a arrogant dick to the Solids he meets.
Remember that medical (and presumably psych) ranks are usually non-Line, and thus wouldn't be strictly speaking in the chain of command. It gets complicated when they do things like having Beverly and Troi take some command time and get rated for command, but still.
Change Leader only mentions their alleged past persecution when trying to manipulate Odo, so I take it with a heap of salt.
I think Odo and the other changelings are the same on their desire for order. The actual difference is Odo sees solids as being actual people who are his equals. The Founders view solids kinda like animals.
If even that. I keep thinking of "p-zombies" - things that move and act and talk like real people, but don't actually have feelings or consciousness. They are not of the Body Great Link.
(It seems to me that the collective entity that is the Founders would naturally divide the observed universe into "Us" and "Not Us.")
Dominion changelings think nothing about turning an entire planet into Mad Max land so long as it ceases to be a possible threat to them. Odo gets upset when his couch is an inch out of place.
Yes, but doing that is in service to their greater goal of galactic order.
You have a chance, it (and a lot of other memorabilia) are coming up for auction.
https://trekmovie.com/2021/06/22/picards-flute-original-tos-phaser-and-more-star-trek-memorabilia-up-for-auction/
Does it come with the person slightly off camera to do the fingers for you?
Then next time he confronts a changeling, Imposter Martok, that guy has no compunctions trying to kill Odo.
It's unnervingly interesting how they could, for want of a better word, dehumanize one of their own.