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[EU]ropean democracies thread

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Posts

  • TryCatcherTryCatcher Registered User regular
    Echo wrote: »
    Stefan Löfven, Swedish PM that just survived forming a new-same-as-the-old government after a vote of no confidence, announced he'll resign as PM and party leader of the Social Democrats this autumn - the party conference in November will elect a new party leader. Since he's resigning as PM at the same time this means we're in for another round of herding cats to form a new government. Yay!

    7xslaebmmcug.jpg

    Reading The Adventures of Stefan Löfven, I'm vastly ignorant, but people shouldn't be demanding the resignation of the leadership of the opposition parties after that particulary humilliating defeat?

  • ChanusChanus Just venting, Not seeking solutions. Registered User regular
    TryCatcher wrote: »
    Echo wrote: »
    Stefan Löfven, Swedish PM that just survived forming a new-same-as-the-old government after a vote of no confidence, announced he'll resign as PM and party leader of the Social Democrats this autumn - the party conference in November will elect a new party leader. Since he's resigning as PM at the same time this means we're in for another round of herding cats to form a new government. Yay!

    7xslaebmmcug.jpg

    Reading The Adventures of Stefan Löfven, I'm vastly ignorant, but people shouldn't be demanding the resignation of the leadership of the opposition parties after that particulary humilliating defeat?

    the opposition parties are largely cult based so it's tricky

    Allegedly a voice of reason.
    HonkNetscape
  • EinzelEinzel Registered User regular
    honovere wrote: »
    Marvel at the exciting diversity of the candidates for German Chancellor
    8863553b-9fb3-4c1c-af11-719bf6bd2bb0_w948_r1.778_fpx52_fpy41.jpg

    You've got centrist slightly corrupt macho patriarchist candidate in blue, conservative more corrupt and incompetent macho patriach candidate in blue, and not a chance to become chancellor slightly incompetent green candidate in blue.

    This race is so frustrating. There are no visions, no interest for sweeping change. Just alot of talk about mostly innane things. At least the conservatives continue to crater in the polls.

    Do...do they all have the same face?

    Antinumeric
  • [Expletive deleted][Expletive deleted] The mediocre doctor NorwayRegistered User regular
    Today is the national election in Norway.

    Norway is part of the EEC and Schengen, but not EU. Major oil and gas exporter. Also fish, timber, rocks (yes, really), aluminium.

    The election system (very different from the US, quite different from most of Europe):
    The country is split into electoral districts, each electing multiple members, proportionally. Districts far from the capital are disproportionally favoured.

    As long as your party gets enough votes in that district to get at least one candidate in, you're golden.

    But, what if you're a small party, and fall below in many districts. E.g., Rødt ("Red") is about 5% in my district, but would need to at least double to get a representative.

    Well, if your party gets at least 4% of the national vote, that party will get leveling seats. These special seats are given out to ensure that the Parliament better represents the national average. (Parties less than 4% are not eligible, but can still get MPs if they are popular enough in at least one district). This scheme explicitly favors small but not miniscule parties, by design.

    Last election, Rødt got 1 MP and less than 2.5% nationally. This election, they might get 5% and 8 seats (1 normally and 7 through leveling). Although the more normal is to go from 2–3 MPs (just below 4%) to 5–7 MPs (just above 4%).

    Minority government is quite common. There is no explicit vote of confidence, but they can be thrown out with a vote of no confidence or equivalent (e.g., not getting budget to pass). That does not trigger a new election; the new majority must try to form a government. Elections happen once every 4 years not matter what. Colation governemtns are also quite common.

    The parties
    Left to right:
    • Rødt (R; "Red"): Literal communists. No EU, yes taxes, no oil, yes environment.
    • Sosialistisk ventreparti (SV; "Socialist leftist party"): Splinter group from Labor. No EU, yes taxes, no oil, yes environment.
    • Arbeiderpartiet (AP; "The Labor Party"): Traditional labor party. Yes EU, slight yes on taxes, yes oil, yes environment.
    • -- Left/center divide --
    • Senterpartiet (SP; "The Center Party"): Former farmer's party. No EU, yes diesel cars, yes districts, no "elites", meh on environment, no immigrants.
    • Miljøpartiet de grønne (MDG; "The Green Environmental Party"). Yes environment, otherwise average leftist.
    • Kristlig folkeparti (KrF; "Christian Popular Party"). Split personality. Huge left/right split, right won tiny internal majority due to abortion (they don't like it). Half value conservative, half "shepards of the Earth / good samaritans". Uneasy alignment with the right.
    • Ventre (V; "Left"): Traditional liberal party. Yes EU, yes environment, tax carefully. Uneasy alignment with the right.
    • -- Center/right divide --
    • Høyre (H; "Right"): Traditional conservative party. Yes EU, yes oil, yes lower taxes, no government oversight.
    • Fremskrittspartiet (FrP "The Progress Party"): Right-wing populists. No eu, yes booze, yes cigarettes, yes oil, no environment, no immigrants.

    All parties are pro welfare. Left wants to fund via taxes, right via the vast, vast accumulated oil money (currently invested in international companies).

    Left wants governmentally owned services (school, hospitals, etc), right wants private competitors.

    Current government is an uneasy minority right alliance of Høyre (conservative), KrF (schitzofrenic Christians), and Venstre (liberals). FrP (right populists) supports (kinda) and departed government right before the pandemic hit.

    Current prognosis is a majority coalition of left SV (socialists), AP (labor), and SP (rural populists). But the real nail-biter is if they need support from Rødt (communists) or MDG (greens).

    AP (Labor) has been my traditional party, but this year I went for SV (socialists) on environmental reasons. (I actually turn out to be more in agreement with MDG (greens), but they do not have great odds of being in a position to affect policy.)

    531ewnku18rs.png
    Latest poll. (Gray is "others", i.e., no-hopers.)

    Last election (2017):
    iq3qacdmri1v.png

    Sic transit gloria mundi.
  • GiantGeek2020GiantGeek2020 Registered User regular
    Chanus wrote: »
    TryCatcher wrote: »
    Echo wrote: »
    Stefan Löfven, Swedish PM that just survived forming a new-same-as-the-old government after a vote of no confidence, announced he'll resign as PM and party leader of the Social Democrats this autumn - the party conference in November will elect a new party leader. Since he's resigning as PM at the same time this means we're in for another round of herding cats to form a new government. Yay!

    7xslaebmmcug.jpg

    Reading The Adventures of Stefan Löfven, I'm vastly ignorant, but people shouldn't be demanding the resignation of the leadership of the opposition parties after that particulary humilliating defeat?

    the opposition parties are largely cult based so it's tricky

    And not the good human sacrifice kind of cult either.

    You won't hear a single "Cthulhu Phtagn" from these guys.

    IIRC aren't they mostly crazy Archconservative?

  • [Expletive deleted][Expletive deleted] The mediocre doctor NorwayRegistered User regular
    edited September 13
    Norwegian election: Polls just closed (at 2100). Prognosis is (collectively) absolute majority to AP (labor), SV (socialists), and SP (rural populists). 88 MPs out of 85 needed for absolute majority.

    Percentage national (MPs):
    Arbeiderpartiet "Labor" 26,6 (48)
    Sp "Center" 14,6 (26)
    SV "Socialist" 7,7 (14)
    Rødt "Red" 5 (9)
    MDG "Greens" 4,2 (7)
    Høyre "Right" 18,7 (38)
    Frp "Progress" 11,2 (20)
    KrF "Christians" 3,9 (3)
    Venstre "Left" 3,5 (3).
    Also, Pasientlista ("Patients") looks to get 1 MP. Never heard of them before.

    Note the difference in MPs between KrF (just below 4%) and MDG (just above 4%): 3 MPs vs 7 MPs.

    Good news: Political right is underperforming (vs polls). Bad news: My second least favorite party (SP) is overperforming.

    Things will surely change, though. We should get final results tonight, although I won't stay up to wait for the final score.

    [Expletive deleted] on
    Sic transit gloria mundi.
    ChanusGiantGeek2020Netscape
  • ChanusChanus Just venting, Not seeking solutions. Registered User regular
    Chanus wrote: »
    TryCatcher wrote: »
    Echo wrote: »
    Stefan Löfven, Swedish PM that just survived forming a new-same-as-the-old government after a vote of no confidence, announced he'll resign as PM and party leader of the Social Democrats this autumn - the party conference in November will elect a new party leader. Since he's resigning as PM at the same time this means we're in for another round of herding cats to form a new government. Yay!

    7xslaebmmcug.jpg

    Reading The Adventures of Stefan Löfven, I'm vastly ignorant, but people shouldn't be demanding the resignation of the leadership of the opposition parties after that particulary humilliating defeat?

    the opposition parties are largely cult based so it's tricky

    And not the good human sacrifice kind of cult either.

    You won't hear a single "Cthulhu Phtagn" from these guys.

    IIRC aren't they mostly crazy Archconservative?

    mostly they are the Swedish Democrats, who are actual Nazis, KD which is the cooky Christian party, and the Liberals, which seem to be more Libertarian than Liberal

    so, yeah, not a hip and classy frenemy kind of opposition

    Allegedly a voice of reason.
  • HonkHonk Honk is this poster. Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    The Liberals stand up for important issues like why shouldn’t people be allowed to consensually fuck siblings and also pay low taxes.

    The hard hitting important stuff!

    PSN: Honkalot
    ChanusNetscapeEchoSiska
  • [Expletive deleted][Expletive deleted] The mediocre doctor NorwayRegistered User regular
    edited September 13
    Honk wrote: »
    The Liberals stand up for important issues like why shouldn’t people be allowed to consensually fuck siblings and also pay low taxes.

    The hard hitting important stuff!

    You make it sound like you can currently fuck your siblings but it's taxed. Which, in fairness, sounds like something the Swedish government might at least have contemplated at some point.

    Alt: Liberals are trying to court that all-important Lannister vote, I see.

    [Expletive deleted] on
    Sic transit gloria mundi.
    ChanusHonkGiantGeek2020Gnizmo
  • ChanusChanus Just venting, Not seeking solutions. Registered User regular
    Honk wrote: »
    The Liberals stand up for important issues like why shouldn’t people be allowed to consensually fuck siblings and also pay low taxes.

    The hard hitting important stuff!

    You make it sound like you can currently fuck your siblings but it's taxed. Which, in fairness, sounds like something the Swedish government might at least have contemplated at some point.

    you can either fuck your siblings or pay low taxes

    but not both

    Allegedly a voice of reason.
    HonkGiantGeek2020Siska
  • Lord_AsmodeusLord_Asmodeus goeticSobriquet: Here is your magical cryptic riddle-tumour: I AM A TIME MACHINERegistered User regular
    Honk wrote: »
    The Liberals stand up for important issues like why shouldn’t people be allowed to consensually fuck siblings and also pay low taxes.

    The hard hitting important stuff!

    Well

    Why shouldn't they

    Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if Labor had not first existed. Labor is superior to capital, and deserves much the higher consideration. - Lincoln
  • TryCatcherTryCatcher Registered User regular
    Chanus wrote: »
    Chanus wrote: »
    TryCatcher wrote: »
    Echo wrote: »
    Stefan Löfven, Swedish PM that just survived forming a new-same-as-the-old government after a vote of no confidence, announced he'll resign as PM and party leader of the Social Democrats this autumn - the party conference in November will elect a new party leader. Since he's resigning as PM at the same time this means we're in for another round of herding cats to form a new government. Yay!

    7xslaebmmcug.jpg

    Reading The Adventures of Stefan Löfven, I'm vastly ignorant, but people shouldn't be demanding the resignation of the leadership of the opposition parties after that particulary humilliating defeat?

    the opposition parties are largely cult based so it's tricky

    And not the good human sacrifice kind of cult either.

    You won't hear a single "Cthulhu Phtagn" from these guys.

    IIRC aren't they mostly crazy Archconservative?

    mostly they are the Swedish Democrats, who are actual Nazis, KD which is the cooky Christian party, and the Liberals, which seem to be more Libertarian than Liberal

    so, yeah, not a hip and classy frenemy kind of opposition

    Yuck. Guess that answers why Löfven stayed as much as he wanted.

    ChanusGiantGeek2020
  • HonkHonk Honk is this poster. Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    Honk wrote: »
    The Liberals stand up for important issues like why shouldn’t people be allowed to consensually fuck siblings and also pay low taxes.

    The hard hitting important stuff!

    Well

    Why shouldn't they

    Because high taxes fund the public service system.

    PSN: Honkalot
    Lord_AsmodeusChanusGiantGeek2020Kamar
  • [Expletive deleted][Expletive deleted] The mediocre doctor NorwayRegistered User regular
    edited September 14
    Norwegian election: It is done. Votes are tallied and final results are in.

    Votes:
    osx4e82nn2qi.png

    MPs:
    vhhycxmp7b8x.png

    Changes are since last election (2017). Note that parliament is unicamberial. We only have a lower house.

    Ed: New record in female MPs: 47%.

    AP (labor), SP (rural populists) and SV (socialists) have absolute majority, jointly. Government will either be AP + SP + SV (most likely), or AP + SP with support either from SV or case-by-case basis. AP will get PM.

    MDG (greens) fell below 4%, which cost them 4 MPs (7 vs 3). Krf (christians) fell below 4% for the first time in generations. The one "others" party (PF) who got an MP has exactly one point in their party manifesto: Don't close the local hospital in Alta (pop 15,500).

    This year, my choice was MDG (with whom I most agree) or SV (decent second place). If AP + SP + SV didn't get a collective majority, and MDG got above 4% nationally, that would have been the best use of my vote. If either of those things didn't happen, SV would be my best choice. So I hedged my bets and went for SV.

    [Expletive deleted] on
    Sic transit gloria mundi.
    AldoNetscapeChanusErlec
  • [Expletive deleted][Expletive deleted] The mediocre doctor NorwayRegistered User regular
    Incidentally, on voting: Voting is always straight party line. Each party has their own ballot. You pick the ballot of the party for whom you want to vote, fold it up (the outside is identical on all ballots to make it secret) and drop it off. Ballots are always and only paper.

    The party ballots are sorted by candidates. First candidate, second candidate, etc. in that district. (Order determined by the parties themselves). And they get into parliament based on the order.

    You can technically write in candidates from other parties, or change the order of them, but it never has any impact.

    Sic transit gloria mundi.
  • WyreinWyrein Registered User regular
    Honk wrote: »
    The Liberals stand up for important issues like why shouldn’t people be allowed to consensually fuck siblings and also pay low taxes.

    The hard hitting important stuff!

    I'm not sure what exactly this joke refers to, but I do genuinely think that supposedly enlightened Western democracies criminalizing consensual sexual behaviour is quite odious.

    painfulPleasance
  • ChanusChanus Just venting, Not seeking solutions. Registered User regular
    Wyrein wrote: »
    Honk wrote: »
    The Liberals stand up for important issues like why shouldn’t people be allowed to consensually fuck siblings and also pay low taxes.

    The hard hitting important stuff!

    I'm not sure what exactly this joke refers to, but I do genuinely think that supposedly enlightened Western democracies criminalizing consensual sexual behaviour is quite odious.

    presumably the joke would be aimed at those who think the most important thing to fight for right now is the right to fuck their siblings

    Allegedly a voice of reason.
    shryke
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    Seems more like a Shelbyville idea.

    Chanusshryke
  • WyreinWyrein Registered User regular
    Chanus wrote: »
    Wyrein wrote: »
    Honk wrote: »
    The Liberals stand up for important issues like why shouldn’t people be allowed to consensually fuck siblings and also pay low taxes.

    The hard hitting important stuff!

    I'm not sure what exactly this joke refers to, but I do genuinely think that supposedly enlightened Western democracies criminalizing consensual sexual behaviour is quite odious.

    presumably the joke would be aimed at those who think the most important thing to fight for right now is the right to fuck their siblings

    Well, yes, but I assume there has been some sort of incident which caused the poster to jokingly refer to this political party as one that stands up for the right to consensually fuck your sibling. I am very much unfamiliar with Swedish politics, but I doubt that this is an actual core aspect of their party platform.

    Luiane
  • NeveronNeveron SwedenRegistered User regular
    Wyrein wrote: »
    Chanus wrote: »
    Wyrein wrote: »
    Honk wrote: »
    The Liberals stand up for important issues like why shouldn’t people be allowed to consensually fuck siblings and also pay low taxes.

    The hard hitting important stuff!

    I'm not sure what exactly this joke refers to, but I do genuinely think that supposedly enlightened Western democracies criminalizing consensual sexual behaviour is quite odious.

    presumably the joke would be aimed at those who think the most important thing to fight for right now is the right to fuck their siblings

    Well, yes, but I assume there has been some sort of incident which caused the poster to jokingly refer to this political party as one that stands up for the right to consensually fuck your sibling. I am very much unfamiliar with Swedish politics, but I doubt that this is an actual core aspect of their party platform.

    The youth wing was arguing for decriminalizing incest between consenting siblings ("it's legal for step-siblings"), necrophilia (given consent in your will), and bestiality (with the argument that existing animal abuse laws were enough).

    That was five-ish years ago and they kind of got blasted for it, though.

  • WyreinWyrein Registered User regular
    Neveron wrote: »
    Wyrein wrote: »
    Chanus wrote: »
    Wyrein wrote: »
    Honk wrote: »
    The Liberals stand up for important issues like why shouldn’t people be allowed to consensually fuck siblings and also pay low taxes.

    The hard hitting important stuff!

    I'm not sure what exactly this joke refers to, but I do genuinely think that supposedly enlightened Western democracies criminalizing consensual sexual behaviour is quite odious.

    presumably the joke would be aimed at those who think the most important thing to fight for right now is the right to fuck their siblings

    Well, yes, but I assume there has been some sort of incident which caused the poster to jokingly refer to this political party as one that stands up for the right to consensually fuck your sibling. I am very much unfamiliar with Swedish politics, but I doubt that this is an actual core aspect of their party platform.

    The youth wing was arguing for decriminalizing incest between consenting siblings ("it's legal for step-siblings"), necrophilia (given consent in your will), and bestiality (with the argument that existing animal abuse laws were enough).

    That was five-ish years ago and they kind of got blasted for it, though.

    Ah, I see. That does sound like something that wasn't very smart to do, politically speaking, given that it's the perfect collection of edgy subjects that cause thought-overriding feelings of disgust in voters' minds. I wonder why they thought that discussing these topics was a good idea.

  • NeveronNeveron SwedenRegistered User regular
    Wyrein wrote: »
    Neveron wrote: »
    Wyrein wrote: »
    Chanus wrote: »
    Wyrein wrote: »
    Honk wrote: »
    The Liberals stand up for important issues like why shouldn’t people be allowed to consensually fuck siblings and also pay low taxes.

    The hard hitting important stuff!

    I'm not sure what exactly this joke refers to, but I do genuinely think that supposedly enlightened Western democracies criminalizing consensual sexual behaviour is quite odious.

    presumably the joke would be aimed at those who think the most important thing to fight for right now is the right to fuck their siblings

    Well, yes, but I assume there has been some sort of incident which caused the poster to jokingly refer to this political party as one that stands up for the right to consensually fuck your sibling. I am very much unfamiliar with Swedish politics, but I doubt that this is an actual core aspect of their party platform.

    The youth wing was arguing for decriminalizing incest between consenting siblings ("it's legal for step-siblings"), necrophilia (given consent in your will), and bestiality (with the argument that existing animal abuse laws were enough).

    That was five-ish years ago and they kind of got blasted for it, though.

    Ah, I see. That does sound like something that wasn't very smart to do, politically speaking, given that it's the perfect collection of edgy subjects that cause thought-overriding feelings of disgust in voters' minds. I wonder why they thought that discussing these topics was a good idea.

    For what it's worth, another thing they were going for at the same time was legalizing weed.

    At the same time as they were talking about legalizing incest, necrophilia, and bestiality.

    Yeah. Bad optics.

  • Lord_AsmodeusLord_Asmodeus goeticSobriquet: Here is your magical cryptic riddle-tumour: I AM A TIME MACHINERegistered User regular
    I'd say "pick two" but you know they'd pick the worst two.

    Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if Labor had not first existed. Labor is superior to capital, and deserves much the higher consideration. - Lincoln
    Fencingsax
  • [Expletive deleted][Expletive deleted] The mediocre doctor NorwayRegistered User regular
    The newly elected Norwegian parliament will have 6 members who survived the Utøya massacre in 2011.

    Sic transit gloria mundi.
    CaptainBeyondRMS OceanicaltidEchoGiantGeek2020ShadowfireNeveronLord_AsmodeusHonkpainfulPleasance
  • autono-wally, erotibot300autono-wally, erotibot300 love machine Registered User regular
    NSFW Trainwreck:



    One of the candidates for chancellor replies to children asking questions.

    He gets super pissy in the process, and now has been crying for days about how unfair the interview was-

    The interview his team knew all details about previously, so either his team is bad and prepared him badly, or he ignored his team. Both pretty bad for someone who wants to lead a country

    kFJhXwE.jpgkFJhXwE.jpg
    NetscapeDark Raven XpainfulPleasance
  • autono-wally, erotibot300autono-wally, erotibot300 love machine Registered User regular
    Let's not forget that his party (CDU) tried to create a "but her emails" situation by deliberately doing an unneccessary police raid in the strongest opposition party's candidate's (Scholz, SPD) ministry 3 days before a TV confrontation, instigated by a DA that is politically active in the CDU, when the thing in question was some minor procedural thing that should've been solved by a simple letter months ago... almost as if someone waited until an opportunity arose for a politically impactful police raid

    kFJhXwE.jpgkFJhXwE.jpg
    Netscape
  • honoverehonovere Registered User regular
    edited September 17
    All the clamouring about how the kids had questions prepared for them by adults and the questions were way too hard is so pathetic.

    But that's the level the election race is currently on. Which is also pathetic

    Also what I didn't expect before this election is that the conservatives are actually running a an actual serious red scare campaign in 2021.

    honovere on
    autono-wally, erotibot300
  • BogartBogart Gonna Be A Man In Motion Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited September 17
    Bogart on
  • AldoAldo Hippo Hooray Registered User regular
    From the article
    The agreement scuppered a multibillion-dollar deal France had signed with Australia.
    So it's about money and not about life and death. The article is very short on details and I wonder how justified France is in their anger. It seems like these kind of massive weapon deals are always a bit contentious.

  • ChanusChanus Just venting, Not seeking solutions. Registered User regular
    Aldo wrote: »
    From the article
    The agreement scuppered a multibillion-dollar deal France had signed with Australia.
    So it's about money and not about life and death. The article is very short on details and I wonder how justified France is in their anger. It seems like these kind of massive weapon deals are always a bit contentious.

    i mean

    of course it's about money

    Allegedly a voice of reason.
    shrykeIncenjucarFencingsaxTryCatcherShadowfireTicaldfjamjakobagger
  • TryCatcherTryCatcher Registered User regular
    Chanus wrote: »
    Aldo wrote: »
    From the article
    The agreement scuppered a multibillion-dollar deal France had signed with Australia.
    So it's about money and not about life and death. The article is very short on details and I wonder how justified France is in their anger. It seems like these kind of massive weapon deals are always a bit contentious.

    i mean

    of course it's about money

    Yep. And, I have said it before, that deal was getting blasted hard on the Australian press thanks to cost inflations and delays. Which was fine when Australia didn't actually needed those subs, but now they do. So.

    ChanusKayne Red Robe
  • TryCatcherTryCatcher Registered User regular
    The Guardian has an analysis on the deal, french anger comes out that they found out on Twitter like everybody else:
    “This is far more than just a diplomatic spat, the withdrawal of ambassadors is the tip of the iceberg,” Peter Ricketts, a former permanent undersecretary at the Foreign Office and former UK ambassador to France, told BBC Radio 4’s Today programme.

    “There is a deep sense of betrayal in France because this wasn’t just an arms contract, this was France setting up a strategic partnership with Australia and the Australians have now thrown that away and negotiated behind the backs of France with two Nato allies, the US and UK, to replace it with a completely different contract.

    “For the French this looks like a complete failure of trust between allies and calls into doubt what is Nato for. This puts a big rift down the middle of the Nato alliance … Britain needs a functioning Nato alliance.”

    Ricketts added: “I think people underestimated the impact that this would have in France and how this would seem as a humiliation and betrayal in a year President Macron is running for election in a very tight race with the far right.”

    This is in a context of the deal being attacked on the Australian press for months thanks to delays and cost increases. So the french diplomatic corps and the Macron administration were shown as particulary incompetent:
    Nathalie Goulet, an opposition member and vice-president of the French Sénat’s foreign affairs, defence and armed forces commission, said the situation was “very disturbing”.

    “Someone should have warned before this breach of contract … I don’t understand this couldn’t have happened overnight,” she said.

    “It’s a failure for industry, intelligence and communication and a public humiliation … and nobody likes to be humiliated, even the French.”

    All of this in an election year. And people think that imperial delusions are unique to the UK.

  • autono-wally, erotibot300autono-wally, erotibot300 love machine Registered User regular
    edited September 18
    TryCatcher wrote: »
    The Guardian has an analysis on the deal, french anger comes out that they found out on Twitter like everybody else:
    “This is far more than just a diplomatic spat, the withdrawal of ambassadors is the tip of the iceberg,” Peter Ricketts, a former permanent undersecretary at the Foreign Office and former UK ambassador to France, told BBC Radio 4’s Today programme.

    “There is a deep sense of betrayal in France because this wasn’t just an arms contract, this was France setting up a strategic partnership with Australia and the Australians have now thrown that away and negotiated behind the backs of France with two Nato allies, the US and UK, to replace it with a completely different contract.

    “For the French this looks like a complete failure of trust between allies and calls into doubt what is Nato for. This puts a big rift down the middle of the Nato alliance … Britain needs a functioning Nato alliance.”

    Ricketts added: “I think people underestimated the impact that this would have in France and how this would seem as a humiliation and betrayal in a year President Macron is running for election in a very tight race with the far right.”

    This is in a context of the deal being attacked on the Australian press for months thanks to delays and cost increases. So the french diplomatic corps and the Macron administration were shown as particulary incompetent:
    Nathalie Goulet, an opposition member and vice-president of the French Sénat’s foreign affairs, defence and armed forces commission, said the situation was “very disturbing”.

    “Someone should have warned before this breach of contract … I don’t understand this couldn’t have happened overnight,” she said.

    “It’s a failure for industry, intelligence and communication and a public humiliation … and nobody likes to be humiliated, even the French.”

    All of this in an election year. And people think that imperial delusions are unique to the UK.

    yeah this might be catastrophic, honestly. if the far right wins, france will probably exit the EU and NATO and maybe even align with Russia directly

    Edit: if you wanted to design the perfect move to make france re-consider NATO even more than they already have after 4 years of Trump, this would be it.

    autono-wally, erotibot300 on
    kFJhXwE.jpgkFJhXwE.jpg
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    ...is there any reason for any French person who isn't a death merchant to give a rat's ass about this?

  • AldoAldo Hippo Hooray Registered User regular
    Do you have any sources or background articles about actual support of a Frexit in France? There's been a lot of talk by extreme right wing politicians about breaking up the EU, but when it was asked in polls there was never much a movement for it here in The Netherlands. Not all talking points of the fascists resonate strongly with the electorate. France - like most democracies - is not run solely by one political party, so even if FN would garner much support, they could not act on a whim.

    Personally, I'm rather reluctant to doomsay from Australia not honoring agreements --> France joins forces with Russia.

    Fencingsax
  • autono-wally, erotibot300autono-wally, erotibot300 love machine Registered User regular
    edited September 18
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    ...is there any reason for any French person who isn't a death merchant to give a rat's ass about this?

    It was the biggest arms deal in french history, so it would've probably created a ton of highly qualified jobs.

    It was also part of french security strategy, not "just" an arms deal for money, and moreso when france now got fucked by australia, the uk and the us working together to fuck them over - supposedly all allies, sometimes even called "friends".

    Since France, contrary to the other continental european states, has a "robust" foreign policy, this is also all stuff the common french people will know about.
    This together with the french being a very VERY proud people is a recipe for mega disaster. They won't forget this in a long long time.

    autono-wally, erotibot300 on
    kFJhXwE.jpgkFJhXwE.jpg
  • [Expletive deleted][Expletive deleted] The mediocre doctor NorwayRegistered User regular
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    ...is there any reason for any French person who isn't a death merchant to give a rat's ass about this?

    National honor?

    Sic transit gloria mundi.
  • autono-wally, erotibot300autono-wally, erotibot300 love machine Registered User regular
    edited September 18
    Aldo wrote: »
    Do you have any sources or background articles about actual support of a Frexit in France? There's been a lot of talk by extreme right wing politicians about breaking up the EU, but when it was asked in polls there was never much a movement for it here in The Netherlands. Not all talking points of the fascists resonate strongly with the electorate. France - like most democracies - is not run solely by one political party, so even if FN would garner much support, they could not act on a whim.

    Personally, I'm rather reluctant to doomsay from Australia not honoring agreements --> France joins forces with Russia.

    youre forgetting that russia still very actively tries to influnce other states' elections. this is extremely juicy propaganda fodder, and something that plays very well for the FN. Of course it's a worst case scenario, but I really don't see how this is a good decision from a US standpoint. They should've involved france in a solution instead of very clearly just letting them out to dry.

    autono-wally, erotibot300 on
    kFJhXwE.jpgkFJhXwE.jpg
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    It's a bit weird to imagine a country's people throwing a fit over a military contract falling through. The wealthy and powerful and news media seeking to profit from it, sure.

  • [Expletive deleted][Expletive deleted] The mediocre doctor NorwayRegistered User regular
    Minor point of order: Front national changed their name in 2018 to Rassemblement national (RN; "National Rally").

    Sic transit gloria mundi.
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