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[MENA] The Middle East and North Africa

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Posts

  • R-demR-dem Registered User regular
    The death penalty should not exist in the U.S.
    The death penalty and mutilation punishments should not exist in Afghanistan.
    Any chance of us influencing the latter is long gone thanks to 20 years of blundering about.
    If we tell the Taliban to stop executing people and they point out our hypocrisy (especially considering how the death penalty in the U.S. disproportionately affects minorities and the poor class), they're not wrong.
    I hate the Taliban, and it's not a one-to-one comparison, no, but we're in no position to lead by moral authority, especially in Afghanistan.

    BurtletoyMan in the MistsDoodmann
  • cursedkingcursedking Registered User regular
    edited September 2021
    We’re not discussing things in an ethical vacuum. I agree that the death penalty shouldn’t exist, but it’s beyond the pale to suggest that because it does exist in the US that the country has no moral authority to say the Taliban’s historical and current use of public executions and public dismemberment sentencing a, by a religious panel, is worse and a massive human rights issue.

    People who are found to be gay will be executed in Afghanistan. People accused of blasphemy will be executed. People accused of adultery.

    These are realities, they aren’t things just talked about in theory. So yes, objectively, the US has better, more humane, and less per capita executions and I don’t feel weird saying it.

    Capital punishment is wrong. Saying “uh well actually the US still does it” is just not even on the same level as what that country is experiencing

    cursedking on
    Types: Boom + Robo | Food: Sweet | Habitat: Plains
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  • jungleroomxjungleroomx It's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovels Registered User regular
    edited September 2021
    Kaputa wrote: »

    I also don't really understand why execution is being regarded as beyond the pale for a government. I mean we're all aware that America executes people, right? As do many countries in the region. Doesn't make it less horrible but it's a pretty widespread problem.

    America is not a good lead to follow wrt the death penalty at all, but even we're not executing women for wearing jeans in public.

    jungleroomx on
    cursedkingNitsuaZibblsnrt
  • zagdrobzagdrob Registered User regular
    Does anyone here support the US death penalty or are we also pretty much in agreement that its barbaric and inhumane and an atrocity both here and in Afghanistan?

    Pretty sure nobody (discussing it here) is like 'rah rah for old sparky' but also tut tutting the Taliban.

    jungleroomxMarathoncursedkingshrykekimeMillHarry DresdenShadowfireQanamilnever dieGennenalyse RuebenThawmus
  • jungleroomxjungleroomx It's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovels Registered User regular
    zagdrob wrote: »
    Does anyone here support the US death penalty or are we also pretty much in agreement that its barbaric and inhumane and an atrocity both here and in Afghanistan?

    Pretty sure nobody (discussing it here) is like 'rah rah for old sparky' but also tut tutting the Taliban.

    I'm willing to bet fewer than 3 people do, even odds on it being nobody.

    I don't understand what these people are even doing trying to justify the actions done here.

    MarathoncursedkingHarry Dresden
  • KaputaKaputa Registered User regular
    edited September 2021
    Look, I agree that the US's treatment of its own citizens is not as brutal as that of the Taliban. My point was more that their imposition of the death penalty doesn't mean that people were foolish for hoping that the relatively less extreme parts of the Taliban would be able to somewhat restrain their more extreme elements. The outcome I and others were hoping for was not that naively optimistic. The best case scenario is/was that they allow girls education, give Tajiks, Uzbeks, and ideally Hazaras some share of power, don't descend into another civil war, and don't engage in ethnic cleansing. The bar was set pretty low.

    As that AJE article I posted describes, the more hardline elements seem to be prevailing within the Taliban's internal power struggle, so that "best case scenario" - still a terrible scenario - seems less likely now.

    Kaputa on
    SmrtnikKayne Red Robe
  • jungleroomxjungleroomx It's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovels Registered User regular
    Kaputa wrote: »
    Look, I agree that the US's treatment of its own citizens is not as brutal as that of the Taliban. My point was more that their imposition of the death penalty doesn't mean that people were foolish for hoping that the relatively less extreme parts of the Taliban would be able to somewhat restrain their more extreme elements. The outcome I and others were hoping for was not that naively optimistic. The best case scenario is/was that they allow girls education, give Tajiks, Uzbeks, and ideally Hazaras some share of power, don't descend into another civil war, and don't engage in ethnic cleansing. The bar was set pretty low.

    As that AJE article I posted describes, the more hardline elements seem to be prevailing within the Taliban's internal power struggle, so that "best case scenario" - still a terrible scenario - seems less likely now.

    Is it because everyone knew that the US withdrawal of Afghanistan, no matter what we did at this point a decade+ past the point where we could've actually made a positive permanent difference, was going to be horrific and they were trying to square up the justification for said withdrawal with the grim realities of what was going to happen as soon as we did it?

    I know I did.

  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    R-dem wrote: »
    The death penalty should not exist in the U.S.
    The death penalty and mutilation punishments should not exist in Afghanistan.
    Any chance of us influencing the latter is long gone thanks to 20 years of blundering about.

    American influence left when it pulled out of the region, that was based on dominating force now the Taliban have that position.
    If we tell the Taliban to stop executing people and they point out our hypocrisy (especially considering how the death penalty in the U.S. disproportionately affects minorities and the poor class), they're not wrong.
    I hate the Taliban, and it's not a one-to-one comparison, no, but we're in no position to lead by moral authority, especially in Afghanistan.

    There are people who have credibility for telling America off, the Taliban aren't one of them. The Taliban don't have the moral high ground in anything over America.

  • R-demR-dem Registered User regular
    Let me rephrase myself slightly: if America says fuck all anything about Afghanistan's terrible situation at this point, the international community should commence throwing spitwads at US and telling us to just shut up already.

    DarkPrimusKelorMan in the Mists
  • ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA mod
    Kaputa wrote: »
    Yeah they were called hopes not expectations, and everybody said they were a real long shot and they'd believe it when they saw it.

    I hope the face-eating leopard party etc etc.

    We also had plenty of people in here saying that any suggestion the taliban would re-enact these things was horrifically racist.
    I don't remember any post like that to be honest.

    Because it didn't happen, and he's making it up. The amputations are, as always, horrific, but I'm not really interested in people tying up the human crimes to their invented grievances. I'm still comfortable with the vast majority of the things I've said.

    smCQ5WE.jpg
    ShortyStyrofoam SammichButters
  • jungleroomxjungleroomx It's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovels Registered User regular
    edited September 2021
    R-dem wrote: »
    Let me rephrase myself slightly: if America says fuck all anything about Afghanistan's terrible situation at this point, the international community should commence throwing spitwads at US and telling us to just shut up already.

    It's already falling out of the news cycle. Like I said on August 30th:
    TryCatcher wrote: »
    No-Quarter wrote: »
    I won't link his statement, but Trump is making demands of Afghanistan and threatening to re-invade.

    Lol

    OldManYellsAtCloud.jpg

    Anyways, the inevitable descent of Afghanistan into civil war is now officially Not The US Problem (tm). Expect all the hard breathing coverage to go away through the course of the week.

    I fully expect that whatever is happening now, it will be forgotten in a month.

    Because none of these news outlets actually give a shit.

    jungleroomx on
    TryCatcher
  • jungleroomxjungleroomx It's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovels Registered User regular
    edited September 2021
    Elki wrote: »
    Kaputa wrote: »
    Yeah they were called hopes not expectations, and everybody said they were a real long shot and they'd believe it when they saw it.

    I hope the face-eating leopard party etc etc.

    We also had plenty of people in here saying that any suggestion the taliban would re-enact these things was horrifically racist.
    I don't remember any post like that to be honest.

    Because it didn't happen, and he's making it up. The amputations are, as always, horrific, but I'm not really interested in people tying up the human crimes to their invented grievances. I'm still comfortable with the vast majority of the things I've said.

    And you’d infract me if I said this. And yes it was said.

    Y’all really don’t give a shit anymore do you?

    jungleroomx on
    Harry Dresdenkime
  • ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA mod
    Elki wrote: »
    Kaputa wrote: »
    Yeah they were called hopes not expectations, and everybody said they were a real long shot and they'd believe it when they saw it.

    I hope the face-eating leopard party etc etc.

    We also had plenty of people in here saying that any suggestion the taliban would re-enact these things was horrifically racist.
    I don't remember any post like that to be honest.

    Because it didn't happen, and he's making it up. The amputations are, as always, horrific, but I'm not really interested in people tying up the human crimes to their invented grievances. I'm still comfortable with the vast majority of the things I've said.

    And you’d infract me if I said this. And yes it was said.

    Y’all really don’t give a shit anymore do you?

    About the middle east in general and Afghanistan? I think so, and I also find this long-running (getting close to 20 years at this point) and generally slow running thread to be a decent resource with a handful of interesting and knowledgeable people to talk about various things. Do I care, specifically, about your grudges at unnamed people? Not really, it's not what I come to this thread for.

    smCQ5WE.jpg
    Butters
  • ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA mod
    I wanted to wait a few days to know more in detials what happend in the attempted coup in Sudan, but time hasn't given anymore clarity over the initial claims: there was a coup attempt, and it involved elements of the former Bashir government. What is disturbing about it is that the military leadership responded by blaming "politicians" for not doing enough for common people. That was from a few days ago, but he's still doing it. I watched a snippet of Dagalo giving another speech a few hours ago where he repeats what he said before about the civilian leadership, carried on a Saudi news channel (Al Hadath) and it's making me deeply paranoid with no clear information of what happend and what's going to happen.

    smCQ5WE.jpg
    KaputaBrainleech
  • TryCatcherTryCatcher Registered User regular
    R-dem wrote: »
    Let me rephrase myself slightly: if America says fuck all anything about Afghanistan's terrible situation at this point, the international community should commence throwing spitwads at US and telling us to just shut up already.

    It's already falling out of the news cycle. Like I said on August 30th:
    TryCatcher wrote: »
    No-Quarter wrote: »
    I won't link his statement, but Trump is making demands of Afghanistan and threatening to re-invade.

    Lol

    OldManYellsAtCloud.jpg

    Anyways, the inevitable descent of Afghanistan into civil war is now officially Not The US Problem (tm). Expect all the hard breathing coverage to go away through the course of the week.

    I fully expect that whatever is happening now, it will be forgotten in a month.

    Because none of these news outlets actually give a shit.

    Here's the deal, after 20 years and getting jack shit for it?

    The US public doesn't give a shit either.

    OrcaFencingsaxTicaldfjamSmrtnikKayne Red RobejungleroomxzagdrobDacLord_AsmodeusGennenalyse RuebenThawmus
  • jungleroomxjungleroomx It's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovels Registered User regular
    edited September 2021
    TryCatcher wrote: »
    R-dem wrote: »
    Let me rephrase myself slightly: if America says fuck all anything about Afghanistan's terrible situation at this point, the international community should commence throwing spitwads at US and telling us to just shut up already.

    It's already falling out of the news cycle. Like I said on August 30th:
    TryCatcher wrote: »
    No-Quarter wrote: »
    I won't link his statement, but Trump is making demands of Afghanistan and threatening to re-invade.

    Lol

    OldManYellsAtCloud.jpg

    Anyways, the inevitable descent of Afghanistan into civil war is now officially Not The US Problem (tm). Expect all the hard breathing coverage to go away through the course of the week.

    I fully expect that whatever is happening now, it will be forgotten in a month.

    Because none of these news outlets actually give a shit.

    Here's the deal, after 20 years and getting jack shit for it?

    The US public doesn't give a shit either.

    100%.

    The ratings dropped off, the outrage machine on Social Media is now reserved for the true believer squads out in the right wing (and the lefties that hate the shit out of Joe Biden), and the place will quietly stew itself into feudalism as the nation (and most of the world) worries about something else.

    jungleroomx on
  • WinkyWinky rRegistered User regular
    Yeah, these amputations and executions are unacceptable, this thoroughly draconian concept of "justice" is as horrifying as...Saudi Arabia, who does literally the exact same thing and continues to be our major ally.

    MayabirdMan in the MistsFANTOMASButters
  • jungleroomxjungleroomx It's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovels Registered User regular
    edited September 2021
    Elki wrote: »
    Do I care, specifically, about your grudges at unnamed people? Not really, it's not what I come to this thread for.

    But you do care about calling people liars, even if you're incorrect? Also, it has nothing to do with "those unnamed people."
    redacted wrote:
    The rhetoric I'm seeing from Americans is eerily similar to that of 2001, a lot of bullying tough guy macho talk and xenophobia. "How DARE those Afghans not fight and die for us!" and basically lusting after the Taliban to start committing atrocities because that's what they expect from "barbarians".

    The US populace must be the most bloodthirsty people on Earth

    No link because there's still a rule about callouts.

    jungleroomx on
  • ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited September 2021
    Elki wrote: »
    Do I care, specifically, about your grudges at unnamed people? Not really, it's not what I come to this thread for.

    But you do care about calling people liars, even if you're incorrect? Also, it has nothing to do with "those unnamed people."
    redacted wrote:
    The rhetoric I'm seeing from Americans is eerily similar to that of 2001, a lot of bullying tough guy macho talk and xenophobia. "How DARE those Afghans not fight and die for us!" and basically lusting after the Taliban to start committing atrocities because that's what they expect from "barbarians".

    The US populace must be the most bloodthirsty people on Earth

    No link because there's still a rule about callouts.

    So is the “plenty” of people are one person you had a disagreement with? Are how long are we supposed to be expected to see you use the thread to relieve, over and over, this event of and you and a person disagreeing? Get over it and find some other mode of engaging here.

    Elki on
    smCQ5WE.jpg
  • jungleroomxjungleroomx It's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovels Registered User regular
    edited September 2021
    Elki wrote: »
    Elki wrote: »
    Do I care, specifically, about your grudges at unnamed people? Not really, it's not what I come to this thread for.

    But you do care about calling people liars, even if you're incorrect? Also, it has nothing to do with "those unnamed people."
    redacted wrote:
    The rhetoric I'm seeing from Americans is eerily similar to that of 2001, a lot of bullying tough guy macho talk and xenophobia. "How DARE those Afghans not fight and die for us!" and basically lusting after the Taliban to start committing atrocities because that's what they expect from "barbarians".

    The US populace must be the most bloodthirsty people on Earth

    No link because there's still a rule about callouts.

    So is the “plenty” of people are one person you had a disagreement with? Are how long are we supposed to be expected to see you use the thread to relieve, over and over, this event of and you and a person disagreeing? Get over it and find some other mode of engaging here.

    I’ve never had a real disagreement with the person who wrote it. But you said, as a mod, it never happened and called me a liar publicly in the thread.

    jungleroomx on
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    TryCatcher wrote: »
    R-dem wrote: »
    Let me rephrase myself slightly: if America says fuck all anything about Afghanistan's terrible situation at this point, the international community should commence throwing spitwads at US and telling us to just shut up already.

    It's already falling out of the news cycle. Like I said on August 30th:
    TryCatcher wrote: »
    No-Quarter wrote: »
    I won't link his statement, but Trump is making demands of Afghanistan and threatening to re-invade.

    Lol

    OldManYellsAtCloud.jpg

    Anyways, the inevitable descent of Afghanistan into civil war is now officially Not The US Problem (tm). Expect all the hard breathing coverage to go away through the course of the week.

    I fully expect that whatever is happening now, it will be forgotten in a month.

    Because none of these news outlets actually give a shit.

    Here's the deal, after 20 years and getting jack shit for it?

    The US public doesn't give a shit either.

    The public hasn't given a shit for ages and that's mostly because it just kinda kept going but little was really happening that effected most people back home and Iraq was distracting everyone.

    jungleroomxSmrtnikFencingsaxMan in the MistsLord_AsmodeusButtersadytumGennenalyse RuebenThawmus
  • ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA mod
    Elki wrote: »
    I wanted to wait a few days to know more in detials what happend in the attempted coup in Sudan, but time hasn't given anymore clarity over the initial claims: there was a coup attempt, and it involved elements of the former Bashir government. What is disturbing about it is that the military leadership responded by blaming "politicians" for not doing enough for common people. That was from a few days ago, but he's still doing it. I watched a snippet of Dagalo giving another speech a few hours ago where he repeats what he said before about the civilian leadership, carried on a Saudi news channel (Al Hadath) and it's making me deeply paranoid with no clear information of what happend and what's going to happen.

    The civilian leadership and all ministers giving speeches today was pretty heartening, with vociferous support inside and out. No one mincing words in rebuking Dagalo’s bullshit. Don’t know what happens next, but watching this had me on the verge of tears.



    smCQ5WE.jpg
    kedinikTicaldfjamGiantGeek2020MrMister
  • Lord_AsmodeusLord_Asmodeus goeticSobriquet: Here is your magical cryptic riddle-tumour: I AM A TIME MACHINERegistered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    TryCatcher wrote: »
    R-dem wrote: »
    Let me rephrase myself slightly: if America says fuck all anything about Afghanistan's terrible situation at this point, the international community should commence throwing spitwads at US and telling us to just shut up already.

    It's already falling out of the news cycle. Like I said on August 30th:
    TryCatcher wrote: »
    No-Quarter wrote: »
    I won't link his statement, but Trump is making demands of Afghanistan and threatening to re-invade.

    Lol

    OldManYellsAtCloud.jpg

    Anyways, the inevitable descent of Afghanistan into civil war is now officially Not The US Problem (tm). Expect all the hard breathing coverage to go away through the course of the week.

    I fully expect that whatever is happening now, it will be forgotten in a month.

    Because none of these news outlets actually give a shit.

    Here's the deal, after 20 years and getting jack shit for it?

    The US public doesn't give a shit either.

    The public hasn't given a shit for ages and that's mostly because it just kinda kept going but little was really happening that effected most people back home and Iraq was distracting everyone.

    And also most media sources barely ever reported on it which kept the national conversation focused elsewhere for the most part.

    Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if Labor had not first existed. Labor is superior to capital, and deserves much the higher consideration. - Lincoln
  • LanzLanz Registered User regular



    Ryan Grim is DC Bureau Chief for The Intercept, reminding everyone about how the Afghan Military knowingly murdered civilians.
    Still thinking about how the Times opinion page published this essay by an Afghan general who had just ordered a string of atrocities and there was no staff protest or demand for apology

    https://t.co/sUqhRD0xfB

    at least update the piece

    iyjbxax1diu1.jpeg

  • ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited September 2021
    This is kinda funny to read. Laura Rozen (formerly of Al Monitor) getting quotes from western diplomats about their pessimistic mood over the JCOPA negotiations and the new Iranian government that’s in no hurry to talk to them. I’d love to get to know from these diplomats what they expected when what Rouhani and Zarif offered got turned down. Did they expect that the next government was going to be more accommodating? If so, oops.

    Especially amusing to see this quote after seeing one earlier from Amirabdollahian.

    Quote from western source:
    “The Iranians did not give any indication of when they’d come back,” a senior American diplomat, speaking not for attribution, told journalists on a call Sept. 23. “I think they’ve used several words like ‘a few weeks,’ ‘swiftly,’ ‘soon.’ We have heard that for some time. And again, we know they’re going through a transition, but it’s been three months and it’s not clear to us what more they need to review

    Amirabdollahian speaking to Reuters:
    In remarks broadcast on state TV channel IRINN on Saturday, Amirabdollahian said, “People keep asking how soon is soon. Does it mean days, weeks or months?”

    “The difference between Iranian and Western ‘soon’ is a lot. To us,‘soon’ means really in the first opportune time - when our reviews (of the nuclear file) have been completed. What is important is our determination to return to the talks, but those that are serious and guarantee the Iranian nation’s rights and interests,” Amirabdollahian said.

    Hard to square the idea of Iranian (gov) desperation with these competing attitudes, and the new government's "well, soon means different thing in different cultures" position.

    Elki on
    smCQ5WE.jpg
    FencingsaxFANTOMAS
  • ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited September 2021
    I don't know if you guys have seen it mentioned elsewhere, but for the past few days Iraqi media has been consumed by one of the most spectacular meltdowns of an attempted astro-turf that I've seen in a while.

    It started when a New York based thin-tank organized an event in Erbil, to promote the idea of Iraq normalizing relations with Israel; timed to release alongside the conference was an op-ed in the WSJ. All hell immediately broke loose. The government of Iraq and the president condemned the meeting, the Kurdish government denied any knowledge of it and said they would've not allowed it if they knew what it was about, every party in Iraq condemned it, the elders of the tribal leader who put his name on the WSJ op-ed quickly organized a press-conference to disown him, he followed that quickly by releasing a home video condemning everything he said and said he was mislead and given a statement that he hadn't read beforehand. The Iraqi judiciary issued arrest warrants for him and many others involved in the conference. the US OIR spokesman felt the need to issue a statement to make it clear they had nothing to do with the event.

    You couldn't conceive of a more spectacular failure of an event if you tried. It's like someone was writing a sitcom episode of what might happens if ignorant American think-tank types were trying to run some idea in a country they absolutely did not understand.

    Elki on
    smCQ5WE.jpg
    Dark Raven XFANTOMASTicaldfjamshrykeKaputaTynnanMunkus BeaverMan in the MistsboogedybooRoyceSraphimCaptain InertiaThawmusDacKruite
  • KaputaKaputa Registered User regular
    Elki wrote: »
    This is kinda funny to read. Laura Rozen (formerly of Al Monitor) getting quotes from western diplomats about their pessimistic mood over the JCOPA negotiations and the new Iranian government that’s in no hurry to talk to them. I’d love to get to know from these diplomats what they expected when what Rouhani and Zarif offered got turned down. Did they expect that the next government was going to be more accommodating? If so, oops.

    Especially amusing to see this quote after seeing one earlier from Amirabdollahian.

    Quote from western source:
    “The Iranians did not give any indication of when they’d come back,” a senior American diplomat, speaking not for attribution, told journalists on a call Sept. 23. “I think they’ve used several words like ‘a few weeks,’ ‘swiftly,’ ‘soon.’ We have heard that for some time. And again, we know they’re going through a transition, but it’s been three months and it’s not clear to us what more they need to review

    Amirabdollahian speaking to Reuters:
    In remarks broadcast on state TV channel IRINN on Saturday, Amirabdollahian said, “People keep asking how soon is soon. Does it mean days, weeks or months?”

    “The difference between Iranian and Western ‘soon’ is a lot. To us,‘soon’ means really in the first opportune time - when our reviews (of the nuclear file) have been completed. What is important is our determination to return to the talks, but those that are serious and guarantee the Iranian nation’s rights and interests,” Amirabdollahian said.

    Hard to square the idea of Iranian (gov) desperation with these competing attitudes, and the new government's "well, soon means different thing in different cultures" position.
    This is part of what enrages me about the Biden admin's intransigence earlier this year. They may have pissed away the only window to reengage with Iran and fix what Trump broke. Some analysts were saying that the new Iranian administration would have more political leeway to negotiate due to being hardliners - I think someone in this thread said "only Raisi can go to Washington," which summed up that theory well - but that always seemed like a questionable and unnecessary gamble to me, and so far it does not appear to be paying off.

    Kayne Red RobeTicaldfjamElkiRoyceSraphimThawmus
  • Jealous DevaJealous Deva Registered User regular
    edited September 2021
    Elki wrote: »
    This is kinda funny to read. Laura Rozen (formerly of Al Monitor) getting quotes from western diplomats about their pessimistic mood over the JCOPA negotiations and the new Iranian government that’s in no hurry to talk to them. I’d love to get to know from these diplomats what they expected when what Rouhani and Zarif offered got turned down. Did they expect that the next government was going to be more accommodating? If so, oops.

    Especially amusing to see this quote after seeing one earlier from Amirabdollahian.

    Quote from western source:
    “The Iranians did not give any indication of when they’d come back,” a senior American diplomat, speaking not for attribution, told journalists on a call Sept. 23. “I think they’ve used several words like ‘a few weeks,’ ‘swiftly,’ ‘soon.’ We have heard that for some time. And again, we know they’re going through a transition, but it’s been three months and it’s not clear to us what more they need to review

    Amirabdollahian speaking to Reuters:
    In remarks broadcast on state TV channel IRINN on Saturday, Amirabdollahian said, “People keep asking how soon is soon. Does it mean days, weeks or months?”

    “The difference between Iranian and Western ‘soon’ is a lot. To us,‘soon’ means really in the first opportune time - when our reviews (of the nuclear file) have been completed. What is important is our determination to return to the talks, but those that are serious and guarantee the Iranian nation’s rights and interests,” Amirabdollahian said.

    Hard to square the idea of Iranian (gov) desperation with these competing attitudes, and the new government's "well, soon means different thing in different cultures" position.


    I guess the Iranian government does have an interest in continuing negotiations with the west to remove sanctions for the sake of the economy, but on the other hand given the events of the fast few years I’m surprised any communication on the subject of a nuclear deal from the west doesn’t just get an automatic reply of an animated gif of a horse’s anus shitting.

    Jealous Deva on
  • Void SlayerVoid Slayer Very Suspicious Registered User regular
    Iran has an incentive to negotiate with Europe and China. When both parties that can run a country makes it clear they arent intrested in following agreements why would you bother?

    He's a shy overambitious dog-catcher on the wrong side of the law. She's an orphaned psychic mercenary with the power to bend men's minds. They fight crime!
    BigJoeMGiantGeek2020
  • JusticeforPlutoJusticeforPluto Registered User regular
    I feel like Biden is afraid to negotiate with Iran for fear of appearing weak at home. Needs to learn that no matter what he does, the right will still hate him.

    zagdrobTicaldfjamThawmusDac
  • ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA mod
    This Erbil event story just doesn't stop. Apparently the president of the think-tank that organized the event, Joseph Braude, was the very first person to be convicted in connection with the looting of the Iraq's National Museum.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/opinions/2004/10/03/stop-thieves-recovering-iraqs-looted-treasures/ece5156b-a333-425b-80b0-ed38f92b1289/
    As a smuggler, Braude was pretty amateurish. He had bought the pieces from a street vendor in Baghdad, didn't bother to scrape off the tiny letters "I.M." (for Iraqi museum), and then foolishly denied to the inspector that he had been in Iraq. He is due to be sentenced later this month.

    I guess the event was put on with as much ethical considerations and professionalism as you can expect given who's in charge.

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  • ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA mod
    Kaputa wrote: »
    Elki wrote: »
    This is kinda funny to read. Laura Rozen (formerly of Al Monitor) getting quotes from western diplomats about their pessimistic mood over the JCOPA negotiations and the new Iranian government that’s in no hurry to talk to them. I’d love to get to know from these diplomats what they expected when what Rouhani and Zarif offered got turned down. Did they expect that the next government was going to be more accommodating? If so, oops.

    Especially amusing to see this quote after seeing one earlier from Amirabdollahian.

    Quote from western source:
    “The Iranians did not give any indication of when they’d come back,” a senior American diplomat, speaking not for attribution, told journalists on a call Sept. 23. “I think they’ve used several words like ‘a few weeks,’ ‘swiftly,’ ‘soon.’ We have heard that for some time. And again, we know they’re going through a transition, but it’s been three months and it’s not clear to us what more they need to review

    Amirabdollahian speaking to Reuters:
    In remarks broadcast on state TV channel IRINN on Saturday, Amirabdollahian said, “People keep asking how soon is soon. Does it mean days, weeks or months?”

    “The difference between Iranian and Western ‘soon’ is a lot. To us,‘soon’ means really in the first opportune time - when our reviews (of the nuclear file) have been completed. What is important is our determination to return to the talks, but those that are serious and guarantee the Iranian nation’s rights and interests,” Amirabdollahian said.

    Hard to square the idea of Iranian (gov) desperation with these competing attitudes, and the new government's "well, soon means different thing in different cultures" position.
    This is part of what enrages me about the Biden admin's intransigence earlier this year. They may have pissed away the only window to reengage with Iran and fix what Trump broke. Some analysts were saying that the new Iranian administration would have more political leeway to negotiate due to being hardliners - I think someone in this thread said "only Raisi can go to Washington," which summed up that theory well - but that always seemed like a questionable and unnecessary gamble to me, and so far it does not appear to be paying off.

    It’s especially frustrating because we can’t say we didn’t expect this exact scenario to be playing itself out right now, and clearly outlined why it would. Actual professional diplomats and analysts should’ve known.

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  • BrainleechBrainleech 機知に富んだコメントはここにあります Registered User regular
    I feel like Biden is afraid to negotiate with Iran for fear of appearing weak at home. Needs to learn that no matter what he does, the right will still hate him.

    After the mess of Afghanistan and Iraq the rise of Chinese nationalism and much more we need more friends in certain areas than we need frenemies.

  • RoyceSraphimRoyceSraphim Registered User regular

    The too lazy didn't read of this is that is that Obama made the mistake of expanding the drone campaign beyond any clear singular enemy/target. And that he made the mistake of not withdrawing after assassinating Osama bin Laden, which gave the United States the clearest moral exit from the war
    Elki wrote: »
    This Erbil event story just doesn't stop. Apparently the president of the think-tank that organized the event, Joseph Braude, was the very first person to be convicted in connection with the looting of the Iraq's National Museum.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/opinions/2004/10/03/stop-thieves-recovering-iraqs-looted-treasures/ece5156b-a333-425b-80b0-ed38f92b1289/
    As a smuggler, Braude was pretty amateurish. He had bought the pieces from a street vendor in Baghdad, didn't bother to scrape off the tiny letters "I.M." (for Iraqi museum), and then foolishly denied to the inspector that he had been in Iraq. He is due to be sentenced later this month.

    I guess the event was put on with as much ethical considerations and professionalism as you can expect given who's in charge.

    I wasn't expecting to find a business plan worse than Activision/blizzard's, And yet here we are

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  • RoyceSraphimRoyceSraphim Registered User regular
    edited September 2021
    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/23/world/africa/boko-haram-surrender.html

    most telling is this part
    Also in the camp are legions of Boko Haram fighters waiting to be interrogated by the Nigerian government. There are fighters who joined the group willingly, often lured with gifts of money and motorcycles, but also those who were forced or brainwashed into signing up.

    One fighter was a hafiz, someone who has memorized the entire Quran. But, he said, he never knew how to interpret the words he could recite so well.

    In his early teens, he listened to Boko Haram’s leaders preach that the whole world had turned to wayward living and that they needed to stand and fight

    “I totally believed them,” he said, seated on a carpet, compulsively rubbing the sole of his foot over and over with stubby fingers. “I trusted them and anything they said, I agreed.”

    He killed 17 people, he said, and he did it joyfully, seeing it as a blessing.

    Around the time Mr. Shekau killed himself, the hafiz began secretly listening to recordings of sermons by imams preaching a completely different, and peaceful, interpretation. Distraught, he plotted his surrender.

    “I want forgiveness. But I don’t know how God will forgive me,” he said.

    RoyceSraphim on
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  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    Winky wrote: »
    Yeah, these amputations and executions are unacceptable, this thoroughly draconian concept of "justice" is as horrifying as...Saudi Arabia, who does literally the exact same thing and continues to be our major ally.

    Or places like Dubai and Qatar but no one mentions those because they make nice hotels for billionaire fuckwads

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  • ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited October 2021
    Background: in 2019 a bunch of protesters came from the Atbara to join the protesters in Khartoum at the sit-in in front of the military HQ - and once again a few months later to celebrate after the agreement for the transition to civilian rule was signed. Now after the attempted coup and the statements from the military leadership, a couple of trains of protesters have the done the same to join new protests against the military. One again from Atbara and one from Madani - and less dramatically, a few convoys of buses from places with no rail connections to Khartoum. The trains, quite literally filled up to the rooftops, welcomed by protesters in Khartoum.

    Train from Madani:



    As the Atbara train pulls into the station:



    Al Jazeera Sudan did a live broadcast that I can now only find on Facebook for whatever reason, and I don't want to use that.

    No way to elegantly translate the chant, but it's about never acquiescing to the "rule of soldiers" with a Sudanese epithet for soldiers.

    Anyways, I love our symbolism train. Most freedom ever put on one train (don't fact check this).

    Elki on
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  • SLyMSLyM Registered User regular
    So it looks like Lebanon no longer has power.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-58856914

    I get that they've had issues with there being basically no legitimate governing parties that aren't hilariously corrupt, but like, at what point do they get a full-on revolution going on? I would have assumed people would have gotten fed up by this point.

  • MazzyxMazzyx Comedy Gold Registered User regular
    SLyM wrote: »
    So it looks like Lebanon no longer has power.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-58856914

    I get that they've had issues with there being basically no legitimate governing parties that aren't hilariously corrupt, but like, at what point do they get a full-on revolution going on? I would have assumed people would have gotten fed up by this point.

    Lebanon going into revolution is actually more likely Lebanon going into civil war as the current power sharing system breaks down.

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  • Jealous DevaJealous Deva Registered User regular
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    SLyM wrote: »
    So it looks like Lebanon no longer has power.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-58856914

    I get that they've had issues with there being basically no legitimate governing parties that aren't hilariously corrupt, but like, at what point do they get a full-on revolution going on? I would have assumed people would have gotten fed up by this point.

    Lebanon going into revolution is actually more likely Lebanon going into civil war as the current power sharing system breaks down.

    IIRC a big problem in lebanon is that literally all the parties or potential power structures are hated and distrusted so its in a Mr Burns situation.

This discussion has been closed.