I'm also not clear where the lines fall on what crimes and abuse of power are fine to propose and what is going too far because this is a pretty unprecedented discussion. Is Biden having the CIA perform black-bag jobs or wet work out of the question? How about fabricating documents and evidence? It seems like if we're doing blackmail that's not too far over the line either.
We're talking about using legal pressure over known wildly immoral and likely illegal activity to get a vote for absolutely critical legislation and you want to know if that means we'd be ok with murder?
No, you're talking about committing crimes. It's fair to ask how far you want to go when you're already making the corpse of Nixon go "whoa there"
I'm also not clear where the lines fall on what crimes and abuse of power are fine to propose and what is going too far because this is a pretty unprecedented discussion. Is Biden having the CIA perform black-bag jobs or wet work out of the question? How about fabricating documents and evidence? It seems like if we're doing blackmail that's not too far over the line either.
We're talking about using legal pressure over known wildly immoral and likely illegal activity to get a vote for absolutely critical legislation and you want to know if that means we'd be ok with murder?
This is definitely one of those "If you have to ask the question..."
Unless you're one of those unfortunate souls that thinks the law is an absolute good then you're being nonsensical. We all understand the law to exist in balance with moral goals and needs. If some activist got ahold of McConnells home phone and started calling him at all hours to pass a debt ceiling increase no one would bat an eye here. Its probably criminal harassment but he's evil and the stakes are too high. When people got in physical clashes with the police last summer we all understood it to be both illegal and wholly acceptable morally. Certainly no one with a head on their shoulders would think either of these positions bring into question one's views on murder.
Argue its be ineffective of course, argue it goes too far I suppose, but this pearl clutching over its very status as illegal is silly, inconsistent, and unconvincing.
And if you are going to do politically motivated investigations, investigate Republican senators in states with Democratic governors who can appoint their replacement.
You use those tools against your enemies not your nominal allies. That's Abuse of Power 101. You pay off / bribe people on your side.
Yeah, I'm not sure if I'm more aghast at the lack of principles inherent in trying to abuse power to extort people, or at how poorly thought out the plan is.
If the GOP has taught us anything, it should be that you need to be both corrupt AND competent to be effective. If you're going to be a blackhat, at least do a good job of it, jeez.
I'm still not sure what the "there is no downside" bit from the original argument, when this was first brought up, was about. I'm sure that threatening them surely wouldn't engender any hard feelings or anything
I'm also not clear where the lines fall on what crimes and abuse of power are fine to propose and what is going too far because this is a pretty unprecedented discussion. Is Biden having the CIA perform black-bag jobs or wet work out of the question? How about fabricating documents and evidence? It seems like if we're doing blackmail that's not too far over the line either.
We're talking about using legal pressure over known wildly immoral and likely illegal activity to get a vote for absolutely critical legislation and you want to know if that means we'd be ok with murder?
This is definitely one of those "If you have to ask the question..."
You're the one asking that question, which is hyperbolic.
No, in the context of this discussion where people are strongly advocating extorting a sitting Senator to vote for a bill by bringing a politically motivated criminal investigation against his daughter it's not hyperbolic at all to ask what people think is an acceptable and unacceptable abuse of power.
This becoming a legitimate question in the past few pages of discussion is extremely concerning to me and yet I'm still curious where people draw the line. Maybe not murder, but some light state-sanctioned kidnapping / interrogation? Fabricating evidence? Maybe just some shakedowns and goon intimidation. Thinly veiled warnings of physical harm?
All that illegal shit comes together and don't think you can put it back in pandoras box when 'doing crime to get what we want' becomes acceptable.
Corruption is when you abuse official power for personal gain, at the expense of the public
Extortion, generally, is when you use power or threats to extract a personal gain for yourself
Is it corrupt, and extremely harmful, that Manchin and Sinema are choosing to immiserate millions of vulnerable people, in exchange for big corporate donations? Yes, definitely
Would it be extortion to bully Manchin and Sinema into serving the public better? No, I don't think so, if the real goal (and effect) is to reduce corruption, and not to enrich Joe Biden
This is all theoretical, and there's plenty of room for reasonable disagreement about what counts as extortion, what tactical decisions would work best, etc. But even in an extreme case, if Biden could somehow extort Manchin and Sinema into being less corrupt, and less harmful, I think the real ethical question has to be: How do you justify not doing it?
This is nonsense. If Manchin is so corrupt then investigate him
It doesn't matter why you are extorting someone, whether it's to give away all their money or keep it for yourself, it's still "nice family you've got there, would be a shame if something were to happen to them"
Why even bother with extortion at that point? Just arrest him and any replacement that doesn't vote the way you want. You've got roughly the same legal and moral standing and it's probably way more effective
I’m not even really sure why this particular discussion is happening. Biden is not going to investigate Manchin or his daughter. He’s not going to use morally dark gray/black tactics against Manchin. He’s going to negotiate and cajole and try to be Manchin’s buddy. Because that is who Joe Biden is. He’s not LBJ 2: The Johnson Treatment Even Harder and More Illegal.
This is all meandering theorycrafting about the efficacy of illegal tactics that will never, ever see actual, real use.
I’m not even really sure why this particular discussion is happening. Biden is not going to investigate Manchin or his daughter. He’s not going to use morally dark gray/black tactics against Manchin. He’s going to negotiate and cajole and try to be Manchin’s buddy. Because that is who Joe Biden is. He’s not LBJ 2: The Johnson Treatment Even Harder and More Illegal.
This is all meandering theorycrafting about the efficacy of illegal tactics that will never, ever see actual, real use.
It's more that I'm baffled by everyone's tut tutting about using tactics that are so horrible and evil that they got the civil rights act passed.
I'm also not clear where the lines fall on what crimes and abuse of power are fine to propose and what is going too far because this is a pretty unprecedented discussion. Is Biden having the CIA perform black-bag jobs or wet work out of the question? How about fabricating documents and evidence? It seems like if we're doing blackmail that's not too far over the line either.
We're talking about using legal pressure over known wildly immoral and likely illegal activity to get a vote for absolutely critical legislation and you want to know if that means we'd be ok with murder?
No, you're talking about committing crimes. It's fair to ask how far you want to go when you're already making the corpse of Nixon go "whoa there"
Manchin and Sinemas bullshit is why I have to prepare myself for the possibility that I'm gonna have to watch my kid die slowly of renal failure in a war torn wasteland.
I’m not even really sure why this particular discussion is happening. Biden is not going to investigate Manchin or his daughter. He’s not going to use morally dark gray/black tactics against Manchin. He’s going to negotiate and cajole and try to be Manchin’s buddy. Because that is who Joe Biden is. He’s not LBJ 2: The Johnson Treatment Even Harder and More Illegal.
This is all meandering theorycrafting about the efficacy of illegal tactics that will never, ever see actual, real use.
It's more that I'm baffled by everyone's tut tutting about using tactics that are so horrible and evil that they got the civil rights act passed.
I bet if you characterize other people's posts as "tut tutting" you will get really good responses, it really rises the level of discourse.
Shortytouching the meatIntergalactic Cool CourtRegistered Userregular
I bet if you spend more time telling people they're not at your level of discourse then they're probably going to think you don't have any substantive response to the ideas being discussed
I’m not even really sure why this particular discussion is happening. Biden is not going to investigate Manchin or his daughter. He’s not going to use morally dark gray/black tactics against Manchin. He’s going to negotiate and cajole and try to be Manchin’s buddy. Because that is who Joe Biden is. He’s not LBJ 2: The Johnson Treatment Even Harder and More Illegal.
This is all meandering theorycrafting about the efficacy of illegal tactics that will never, ever see actual, real use.
Beyond that, it’s moot as hell.
The debt ceiling is a couple weeks out and midterms is a year away. What investigation, trial, and sentencing, legitimate or otherwise, could possibly be completed in time to actually have an impact on the social safety bill?
It’s pointless theorycrafting for something that’s not gonna happen, shouldn’t happen (for extortion purposes), and in all likelihood would horribly backfire if attempted.
And furthermore, suppose all that happens and we get everything we wanted, does that mean Manchin’s daughter shouldn’t be criminally liable for whatever crimes her father is extorted with because that’s part of the deal?
Edit: Stupid phone
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Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
The justice department should be going after every corrupt son and daughter of every representative and senator.
You forgot President.
I mean they threw a shitload of accusations at Biden's son, but fuck me if it wasn't clear as a bell the three adult Trump children aren't neck deep in corruption and illegality.
Hunter Biden getting busted with cocaine after finishing high school and getting the charge dropped and record expunged while at the same time his dad was crusading for legislation introducing mandatory minimums for people caught with crack cocaine for the first time.
Generations of (majority) minorities went to jail over those laws while Hunter was put in “a diversionary program in New Jersey specifically designed to avoid a trial and having the stigma accompanying a guilty verdict.”
Two years earlier he was pushing/passed legislation that made the penalties for crack vs powder cocaine 100x more punitive for the former.
I am absolutely for offering programs to try and get people away from drugs (particularly at young ages) however the above example highlights exactly why there isn’t a huge appetite for investigation among peers. We’re too far past the event to know if Hunter had been raised at the time whether it would have cooled Joe Biden’s jets on a devastating and harmful series of legislation.
By all means, get the Justice Department on the Trump kids, Cheney should have gotten the same treatment as well for his ties with defence contractors.
Bresch should be prosecuted because it’s the right thing to do. Pfizer already paid out a settlement over it, her emails are pretty damning.
From 93 dollars for a Epipen to over $600 after the elimination of a competing product.
100 pages means the thread is closed and I think it can take a break for a bit. I’ll make a new one when everyone has stopped thinking they possess a biting wit.
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No, you're talking about committing crimes. It's fair to ask how far you want to go when you're already making the corpse of Nixon go "whoa there"
Unless you're one of those unfortunate souls that thinks the law is an absolute good then you're being nonsensical. We all understand the law to exist in balance with moral goals and needs. If some activist got ahold of McConnells home phone and started calling him at all hours to pass a debt ceiling increase no one would bat an eye here. Its probably criminal harassment but he's evil and the stakes are too high. When people got in physical clashes with the police last summer we all understood it to be both illegal and wholly acceptable morally. Certainly no one with a head on their shoulders would think either of these positions bring into question one's views on murder.
Argue its be ineffective of course, argue it goes too far I suppose, but this pearl clutching over its very status as illegal is silly, inconsistent, and unconvincing.
I'm still not sure what the "there is no downside" bit from the original argument, when this was first brought up, was about. I'm sure that threatening them surely wouldn't engender any hard feelings or anything
No, in the context of this discussion where people are strongly advocating extorting a sitting Senator to vote for a bill by bringing a politically motivated criminal investigation against his daughter it's not hyperbolic at all to ask what people think is an acceptable and unacceptable abuse of power.
This becoming a legitimate question in the past few pages of discussion is extremely concerning to me and yet I'm still curious where people draw the line. Maybe not murder, but some light state-sanctioned kidnapping / interrogation? Fabricating evidence? Maybe just some shakedowns and goon intimidation. Thinly veiled warnings of physical harm?
All that illegal shit comes together and don't think you can put it back in pandoras box when 'doing crime to get what we want' becomes acceptable.
This is nonsense. If Manchin is so corrupt then investigate him
It doesn't matter why you are extorting someone, whether it's to give away all their money or keep it for yourself, it's still "nice family you've got there, would be a shame if something were to happen to them"
Why even bother with extortion at that point? Just arrest him and any replacement that doesn't vote the way you want. You've got roughly the same legal and moral standing and it's probably way more effective
This is all meandering theorycrafting about the efficacy of illegal tactics that will never, ever see actual, real use.
It's more that I'm baffled by everyone's tut tutting about using tactics that are so horrible and evil that they got the civil rights act passed.
Manchin and Sinemas bullshit is why I have to prepare myself for the possibility that I'm gonna have to watch my kid die slowly of renal failure in a war torn wasteland.
I bet if you characterize other people's posts as "tut tutting" you will get really good responses, it really rises the level of discourse.
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in fact I'm certain of it
Beyond that, it’s moot as hell.
The debt ceiling is a couple weeks out and midterms is a year away. What investigation, trial, and sentencing, legitimate or otherwise, could possibly be completed in time to actually have an impact on the social safety bill?
It’s pointless theorycrafting for something that’s not gonna happen, shouldn’t happen (for extortion purposes), and in all likelihood would horribly backfire if attempted.
And furthermore, suppose all that happens and we get everything we wanted, does that mean Manchin’s daughter shouldn’t be criminally liable for whatever crimes her father is extorted with because that’s part of the deal?
Edit: Stupid phone
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
Hunter Biden getting busted with cocaine after finishing high school and getting the charge dropped and record expunged while at the same time his dad was crusading for legislation introducing mandatory minimums for people caught with crack cocaine for the first time.
Generations of (majority) minorities went to jail over those laws while Hunter was put in “a diversionary program in New Jersey specifically designed to avoid a trial and having the stigma accompanying a guilty verdict.”
Two years earlier he was pushing/passed legislation that made the penalties for crack vs powder cocaine 100x more punitive for the former.
I am absolutely for offering programs to try and get people away from drugs (particularly at young ages) however the above example highlights exactly why there isn’t a huge appetite for investigation among peers. We’re too far past the event to know if Hunter had been raised at the time whether it would have cooled Joe Biden’s jets on a devastating and harmful series of legislation.
By all means, get the Justice Department on the Trump kids, Cheney should have gotten the same treatment as well for his ties with defence contractors.
Bresch should be prosecuted because it’s the right thing to do. Pfizer already paid out a settlement over it, her emails are pretty damning.
From 93 dollars for a Epipen to over $600 after the elimination of a competing product.
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