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Super Smash Bros. Ultimate

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  • EnlongEnlong Registered User regular
    Yeah, grain of salt definitely. I feel like some of those articles tend to just be "dude, trust me" levels of sourcing stuff. And the person in question doesn't actually say one way or another what the character Byleth was originally meant to be was.

    In any case, I feel like Byleth is what they would've been anyway. They've got the main weapon types of a Fire Emblem game, and I hear the specific weapons in question are part of that game's story.

  • BucketmanBucketman Call me SkraggRegistered User regular
    There's really no way to top Ultimate. It is the best version of the game, and too much care and effort put into it. I think they'll just re-release it in 4k60fps or whatever it is when the Switch 2 does inevitably come out. Especially if Sakurai is truly done with the franchise.

    I mean they could make a version that doesn't have a ton of Fire Emblem characters in it. Like I know appearently a ton of people wanted Sora in this game, but with the second Fight Pass now having another shitty Sword Person and then Sora, another another Sword Person who doesn't have any of the cool King Hearts stuff I loved about Kingdom Hearts....kind of wish I never bought it now. What a waste.

  • H3KnucklesH3Knuckles But we decide which is right and which is an illusion.Registered User regular
    edited October 2021
    But they ('sword persons') all play and handle differently. Like besides the Marth/Roy/Lucina/Chrom quartet which is admittedly excessive (but consider how Mario/Dr Mario/Luigi or Fox/Falco/Wolf never get anywhere near as many complaints), the others are all different.

    Ike resembles them only at a fairly rudimentary level, but it's like Ryu & Sagat, not Ryu & Ken. Robin has the durability gimmick and a completely new move list. Corrin has the most distinct normals of the entire FE ensemble, had a projectile for neutral special, and a side special that has wildly-different follow-up options (unlike Marth et al's side special). Byleth likewise completely changes the special moveset (tether up special, projectile neutral, side's not a rekka, down's not a counter) and has more variety in their normals.

    Cloud & Sephiroth's swords have wildly different characteristics which make their normals distinct from any FE character and eachother, even before we get into their specials. Shulk has the sword with variable-length attacks, & the ring of different but mutually-exclusive self buffs to choose from. Hero's randomized spell menu, MP system, and use of a shield gives him a unique playstyle. Pyra & Mythra have the gimmick of being a 'stance' character that swaps between two forms, each with very different movesets & distinct stats.

    Anyone who complains about 'anime swordsmen' is being a superficial goose, and completely glossing over the gameplay variety they bring.

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  • LucedesLucedes might be real Registered User regular
    That sounds like something an anime swordsman would say, H3Knuckles.

    …but I do agree. Maybe the real problem is how ubiquitous swords are in fiction, video games in particular?

    Sora seems like an interesting mix of existing characters, strong air superiority and sword combos.

  • EnlongEnlong Registered User regular
    Again, I am shocked to learn that a bunch of hero types use swords. It seemed like such an uncommon weapon choice.

  • klemmingklemming Registered User regular
    Name the characters they could use who don't use swords.
    Half points if they just use guns instead.

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  • KoopahTroopahKoopahTroopah The koopas, the troopas. Philadelphia, PARegistered User regular
    @Sterica delivered. Thanks again!! :biggrin: <3. I have the fighter pass already, so I'm gonna get the doom guy mii when it comes out and put the rest towards Metroid.

    Stoked for Sora though!

  • cloudeaglecloudeagle Registered User regular
    Reviews for Nickelodeon Brawl are starting to hit. As expected, it seems to be a Smash clone on a very tight budget, with a general lack of polish, no voices, and generic music. The mechanics are interesting, as it moves about as fast as Smash Melee and there's crazy stuff like air/wavedashing. Most of the gimmick stages don't feel great even if you're playing non-competitively. Good netcode. Not much in the way of extras or extra modes.

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  • WhelkWhelk Registered User regular
    I saw some articles about how the guys who made it were bashing Nintendo for not listening to fans about Smash. That seems patently ridiculous when Ultimate backpedaled a bit on the competitiveness scale. It's also the same week they release Sora, a character the community clamored for.

    Only thing I really agree with is better netcode, but that's more because that's not Nintendo's target market?

  • redfield85redfield85 Registered User regular
    Maybe that is why I am not super sold on the Nick game. The speed. If I would get it, I would wait for a sale or DLC or for them to add voices/music (I think they said that might be coming?).

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  • BucketmanBucketman Call me SkraggRegistered User regular
    klemming wrote: »
    Name the characters they could use who don't use swords.
    Half points if they just use guns instead.

    Crash Bandicoot, Rayman, Tifa, Geno (I guess he technically uses a gun?). I don't even dislike Sora! I played 3 Kingdom Hearts games (haven't gotten to 3 yet), and know a ton of KH lore. I just think his moveset seems boring. Then again, I think my biggest complaint is how many characters have a down B counter move. Its boring!

  • WhelkWhelk Registered User regular
    klemming wrote: »
    Name the characters they could use who don't use swords.
    Half points if they just use guns instead.

    Captain Toad, Waluigi, King Boo, Eggman, Megaman X's Sigma, Domino's the Noid, any of the Fire Emblem dudes that use an Axe, a moogle, an F-Zero villain, Sub Zero, Scorpion, a Guilty Gear rep, that flying clown from Dreamcast, Diablo (much as I dislike Blizzard right now,) Lara Croft, there are thousands regardless of console, PC, whatever.

  • CruorCruor Registered User regular
    edited October 2021
    Whelk wrote: »
    klemming wrote: »
    Name the characters they could use who don't use swords.
    Half points if they just use guns instead.

    Captain Toad, Waluigi, King Boo, Eggman, Megaman X's Sigma, Domino's the Noid, any of the Fire Emblem dudes that use an Axe, a moogle, an F-Zero villain, Sub Zero, Scorpion, a Guilty Gear rep, that flying clown from Dreamcast, Diablo (much as I dislike Blizzard right now,) Lara Croft, there are thousands regardless of console, PC, whatever.

    Sigma used a sword in the fight you have with him in Megaman X, and he also uses his sword in most of his moves in his appearance in Marvel vs Capcom Infinite. The Guilty Gear rep would 100% be Sol Badguy, noted anime swordboy.

    Edit: The other most likely GG rep would be Ky Kiske, who is more anime and more sword than even Sol Badguy.

    Cruor on
  • EnlongEnlong Registered User regular
    Yeah, I was gonna say; Sigma's a beam saber dude.


    And I feel like a Fire Emblem character that uses an axe would still get the "Anime sword guy" treatment from part of the fanbase. There would be arguments that it's not a meaningful difference, and is basically just a wide sword, in terms of gameplay.

  • The WolfmanThe Wolfman Registered User regular
    I think you'll find that 99% of all video game characters who "fight" are going to do it one of 3 ways.

    -One handed melee weapon
    -Ranged projectile
    -Punching

    You can go on about how sword users are so boring. But any option you give as a replacement is going to fit into one of the other two paradigms.

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  • WhelkWhelk Registered User regular
    I mean, I don't really have a horse in the race other than a lot of the Fire Emblem dudes play the same. Play differently and I don't care.

  • WhelkWhelk Registered User regular
    That's why I listed the Noid

  • CruorCruor Registered User regular
    If they add a new Pokemon rep in the next Smash game (when/if that happens), I hope it's Aegislash or even Doublade. Wanna complain about sword users? Here's just a sentient sword. Deal!

    That said, I'm of the opinion that Smash Ultimate should just be up-ported to whatever the next system is with better netcode and maybe some extra DLC fighters.

  • PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    Cruor wrote: »
    If they add a new Pokemon rep in the next Smash game (when/if that happens), I hope it's Aegislash or even Doublade. Wanna complain about sword users? Here's just a sentient sword. Deal!

    That said, I'm of the opinion that Smash Ultimate should just be up-ported to whatever the next system is with better netcode and maybe some extra DLC fighters.

    They already added Pyra though, so.

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  • CruorCruor Registered User regular
    edited October 2021
    Polaritie wrote: »
    Cruor wrote: »
    If they add a new Pokemon rep in the next Smash game (when/if that happens), I hope it's Aegislash or even Doublade. Wanna complain about sword users? Here's just a sentient sword. Deal!

    That said, I'm of the opinion that Smash Ultimate should just be up-ported to whatever the next system is with better netcode and maybe some extra DLC fighters.

    They already added Pyra though, so.

    I want a sword that looks like a sword, not a lady who is a sword wielding a sword!

    Edit: Sword.

    Cruor on
  • The Escape GoatThe Escape Goat incorrigible ruminant they/themRegistered User regular
    edited October 2021
    Whelk wrote: »
    I saw some articles about how the guys who made it were bashing Nintendo for not listening to fans about Smash. That seems patently ridiculous when Ultimate backpedaled a bit on the competitiveness scale. It's also the same week they release Sora, a character the community clamored for.

    Only thing I really agree with is better netcode, but that's more because that's not Nintendo's target market?

    The melee community is obsessed with the idea that they're the True Target Market for smash and are constantly mystified why Nintendo isn't catering to them. There was one particularly bad Zeebee twitter thread (high level Rivals of Aether pro known for his particularly bad takes) where he outright claims that not catering to the melee crowd is a ruinous financial decision, which just doesn't hold up to even the most basic logic.

    And I say that now having been converted to the side that melee is a good game, and deserves to have lasted as long as it has! The community is just so insanely insular because it's had to be self-sustaining for so long that they've completely lost perspective of how many orders of magnitude larger the casual Smash audience is, and it leads them to say silly things like that.

    (not all meleers, etc etc. I'm not indicting everyone—or even most—in the community for saying such things, but sometimes the vocal minorities control the conversations and get the spotlight with their bad takes.)

    The Escape Goat on
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  • BucketmanBucketman Call me SkraggRegistered User regular
    Whelk wrote: »
    klemming wrote: »
    Name the characters they could use who don't use swords.
    Half points if they just use guns instead.

    Captain Toad, Waluigi, King Boo, Eggman, Megaman X's Sigma, Domino's the Noid, any of the Fire Emblem dudes that use an Axe, a moogle, an F-Zero villain, Sub Zero, Scorpion, a Guilty Gear rep, that flying clown from Dreamcast, Diablo (much as I dislike Blizzard right now,) Lara Croft, there are thousands regardless of console, PC, whatever.

    Can we imagine how insane a world we would live in if they took some of those mascot characters who had weird NES and SNES games and added them in as Assist Trophies? Like The Noid, Cool Spot, and Chester Cheetah?

  • DrascinDrascin Registered User regular
    Cruor wrote: »
    Whelk wrote: »
    klemming wrote: »
    Name the characters they could use who don't use swords.
    Half points if they just use guns instead.

    Captain Toad, Waluigi, King Boo, Eggman, Megaman X's Sigma, Domino's the Noid, any of the Fire Emblem dudes that use an Axe, a moogle, an F-Zero villain, Sub Zero, Scorpion, a Guilty Gear rep, that flying clown from Dreamcast, Diablo (much as I dislike Blizzard right now,) Lara Croft, there are thousands regardless of console, PC, whatever.

    Sigma used a sword in the fight you have with him in Megaman X, and he also uses his sword in most of his moves in his appearance in Marvel vs Capcom Infinite. The Guilty Gear rep would 100% be Sol Badguy, noted anime swordboy.

    Edit: The other most likely GG rep would be Ky Kiske, who is more anime and more sword than even Sol Badguy.

    Yeah, the literal only two pòssibilities for a GG rep are Sol or Ky, and believe you me when I say that Ky would be WAY more Standard Swordsperson than the likes of Byleth or Robin.

    Honestly speaking, the whole sameyness thing always felt overstated. Really, my only complaint on Fire Emblem characters is the Marths. Marth's not even a fun character as is, he's literally just Fair The Character 90% of the time, we don't need four Marths! Throw out the lot, keep Lucina as rep for the Marth squad because she's more or less literally Marth But From A Game People Actually Played.

    But the nonclone FE squad is really quitesolid. Byleth is actually pretty fun to play, and while I can't play Corrin for balls, he's definitely unique.

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  • CruorCruor Registered User regular
    I think the only real offenders to me are Marth/Lucina, who could/should have just been costumes of the same character like Olimar/Alph. Chrom's moveset is a remix of the other FE lords, and Roy is just different enough to feel like the Luigi to Marth's Mario.

  • LordSolarMachariusLordSolarMacharius Red wine with fish Registered User regular
    I think you'll find that 99% of all video game characters who "fight" are going to do it one of 3 ways.

    -One handed melee weapon
    -Ranged projectile
    -Punching

    You can go on about how sword users are so boring. But any option you give as a replacement is going to fit into one of the other two paradigms.

    Hmmmmm...

    -Swordfighter
    -Gunner
    -Brawler

  • jothkijothki Registered User regular
    As disappointing as it is to not get a Monster Hunter character now, the neat thing about having Sora as a playable character is that it opens up the possibility of subsequent games having a future-generation hunter character as an echo fighter of him.

    Yeah, I'm one of those Monster Hunter fans.

  • StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited October 2021
    Swords memes aside, it is silly that Fire Emblem is a game that features something called the weapons triangle, and yet only one rep in Smash uses the other two weapons.

    And they still have a sword.

    Sterica on
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  • CaptainBeyondCaptainBeyond I've been out walking Registered User regular
    Edelgard with a thumping great axe would have been the best choice from FE3H and everyone knows it

    I renamed Byleth during my play through and had no idea who they were talking about when they announced him

  • jothkijothki Registered User regular
    Sterica wrote: »
    Swords memes aside, it is silly that Fire Emblem is a game that features something called the weapons triangle, and yet only one rep in Smash uses the other two weapons.

    And they still have a sword.

    You should see Fire Emblem Warriors. It's horrible there.

  • EnlongEnlong Registered User regular
    I had a thought about what I would do for FE representation in Smash if I had the opportunity to rework it.
    1. Marth, with Lucina as an echo: Marth is just too iconic to the series to drop. He is *the* Lord archetype. And Lucina is an easy Echo Fighter to put in, plus she represents a third of the main trio of Awakening.
    2. Robin: Magic is an important aspect of the series, and Robin (even with a sword) shows off four of the main elements, plus the weapon durability system. The alternate option here would be Micaiah from Radiant Dawn, as a full-mage main character. Might be trickier to work out a full moveset from just the Light element, though.
    3. Tiki: Either from Shadow Dragon or Awakening. Replacing Corrin, Tiki would be the representative of dragon-shifters; a not-surprisingly-common archetype in the series. I just feel like Tiki would be a more widly-well-recieved character than Corrin, due to the mixed reception of Fates. She's also kind of an iconic character, given her appearance in the first game, and a canonical return in Awakening, tying the timeline together.
    4. Hector: People want Axes, people want Blazing Sword, so here's Hector. A fan-favorite Lord with an under-represented weapon type. He'd be big, heavy, and relatively slow, but he'd also have a Hand-Axe as a boomerang projectile. Maybe even repurpose some of Chrom's stats and his recovery move?
    5. Anna: Anna is an unusual character. In that she's appeared in just about every game, but wasn't an actual story character until Awakening. But she's become something of a mascot character, with how often she shows up, and her attitude in later appearances. The Merchant class also uses spears, which is one of the main weapon types not represented in this list yet. Problem is, the Merchant job tends to be for weaker versions of Anna used as NPCs, whereas Anna in playable form tends to be a Trickster (a sword class).
    6. Ike: I'm biased.

  • AshtonDragonAshtonDragon AKA The Nix Registered User regular
    People like Ike.

    I think he's a logical character to cut, since he's another blue haired swordie from games that aren't relevant, but... he's also very popular as a character, and for very good reason. He's also almost certainly gay and deserves representation for that alone.

  • TalithTalith 変態という名の紳士 Miami, FLRegistered User regular
    They should probably just consolidate the Fire Emblem fighters into archetypes like Sword Master, Hero, General and make it like Bowser Jr where the alternate outfits are just different characters. Robin could just as easily be any other mage. Byleth and Corrin could argue their way to an individual slot or just be cut.

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  • KupiKupi Registered User regular
    I've been wavering on whether to pretty up and post my thoughts on how to consolidate the roster to make room for more newcomers, but since it's topical, here's how I'd handle the FIre Emblem characters. Ultimately I came up with something similar to Enlong, but even more stringent:

    - All extant characters other than Marth are no longer playable characters. Lucina becomes an alternate costume for Marth, inheriting all of his gameplay attributes.
    - Tiki (newcomer) absorbs the magician specials from Robin, while using dragon transformations as armored smash attacks and smash-aerials.
    - Anna (newcomer) absorbs the "weapon durability" aspect from Robin and the "weapon triangle" aspect from Byleth. She has a unique resource, "Gold", which she accrues by causing damage or connecting with her side special "Sticky Fingers" (a command throw). With her down special, "Buy and Sell", she can pick from a randomized set of weapons, or sell off the one she's currently holding. Swords act just like her dagger but have longer reach, while Lances and Axes replace her A-moves completely. (Lances have long reach but are only strong toward their tips, while axes have short range and bad frame data but high power). Iron, Steel, Silver, and Killer versions of each weapon are available, doing more damage but costing more and lasting fewer uses as you go up the chain. Her neutral special is a bow (which can also be enabled and upgraded with Buy/Sell), and her up special can be charged up through a progression of speed- and mobility-boosting items (Speedwing, Boots, and Warp Powder) that consume increasing amounts of gold but have better recovery attributes.
    - There is a new item, the Summoning Seal, which acts like a Pokeball for Fire Emblem characters. You can summon various Lord characters (including previous playable characters), or generic units (Armor Knight, Pegasus Rider, Cavalier, Myrmidon, Archer, etc.) with model swaps for various standout representatives of the class.

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  • EnlongEnlong Registered User regular
    That Anna concept sounds like Shovel Knight in Rivals of Aether (he can accumulate treasure and open a shop menu mid battle to buy relics to fight with), and I’m here for it.

  • H3KnucklesH3Knuckles But we decide which is right and which is an illusion.Registered User regular
    edited October 2021
    I think unless they're gonna start cutting clones and echoes en masse (so Luigi, Doctor Mario, Daisy, Young Link, Toon Link, Ganondorf, Falco, Wolf, Dark Pit, Isabelle, Ken, Richter; some real fan favorites there), they could just keep the FE characters and people should get over themselves and stop complaining about the presence of characters they're not into.

    Like it boggles my mind how much time and effort gets put into posting about how and why to cut the Fire Emblem representation. I'm not even really a fan of the series (I only own Three Houses, which I've barely played, and a used copy of Roy's GBA title that had a busted save battery so I never got past the intro), but it's crazy to me how hostile you all are to their inclusion. There's 86 playable characters in Smash Ultimate, why is that the one series you all are so dead set on cutting characters from? How would you feel if it was the Mario series (11) or Pokemon (8) that people were always going on and on about needing to be cut back?

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  • AvalonGuardAvalonGuard Registered User regular
    H3Knuckles wrote: »
    I think unless they're gonna start cutting clones and echoes en masse (so Luigi, Doctor Mario, Daisy, Young Link, Toon Link, Ganondorf, Falco, Wolf, Dark Pit, Isabelle, Ken, Richter; some real fan favorites there), they could just keep the FE characters and people should get over themselves and stop complaining about the presence of characters they're not into.

    Like it boggles my mind how much time and effort gets put into posting about how and why to cut the Fire Emblem representation. I'm not even really a fan of the series (I only own Three Houses, which I've barely played, and a used copy of Roy's GBA title that had a busted save battery so I never got past the intro), but it's crazy to me how hostile you all are to their inclusion. There's 86 playable characters in Smash Ultimate, why is that the one series you all are so dead set on cutting characters from? How would you feel if it was the Mario series (11) or Pokemon (8) that people were always going on and on about needing to be cut back?

    I don't have the same heat as you do, but I'm in agreement. Don't understand the FE hate, the series has had a modern renaissance and is kicking ass, why shouldn't a Nintendo property be in Smash? And while there are very similar characters (Marth/Lucina), the others are different archetypes and styles. I would never drop Ike just because he looks kinda similar to Marth, and in motion they look wildly different. You could give Ike a greathammer and you would barely have to change his animations.

    Although, to be honest, prepping ourselves for a roster cut for the next game might be smart. We're gonna lose a lot and it already hurts to think about.

  • EnlongEnlong Registered User regular
    edited October 2021
    No FE hate. Just theorizing on what I might pick to represent the breadth of the weapon and character types in the series, if I was given my dream picks.

    I loved seeing Robin added, because it meant representing the magic system when previously it had all been the sword lord archetype. That’s why my idea includes swords, axes, spears, dragons, and magic, spread across a few different characters.

    I wish we could have a Pegasus knight or something, honestly. But a mounted combatant that isn’t a duck might be too tricky to implement.

    Enlong on
  • H3KnucklesH3Knuckles But we decide which is right and which is an illusion.Registered User regular
    edited October 2021
    H3Knuckles wrote: »
    I think unless they're gonna start cutting clones and echoes en masse (so Luigi, Doctor Mario, Daisy, Young Link, Toon Link, Ganondorf, Falco, Wolf, Dark Pit, Isabelle, Ken, Richter; some real fan favorites there), they could just keep the FE characters and people should get over themselves and stop complaining about the presence of characters they're not into.

    Like it boggles my mind how much time and effort gets put into posting about how and why to cut the Fire Emblem representation. I'm not even really a fan of the series (I only own Three Houses, which I've barely played, and a used copy of Roy's GBA title that had a busted save battery so I never got past the intro), but it's crazy to me how hostile you all are to their inclusion. There's 86 playable characters in Smash Ultimate, why is that the one series you all are so dead set on cutting characters from? How would you feel if it was the Mario series (11) or Pokemon (8) that people were always going on and on about needing to be cut back?

    I don't have the same heat as you do, but I'm in agreement. Don't understand the FE hate, the series has had a modern renaissance and is kicking ass, why shouldn't a Nintendo property be in Smash? And while there are very similar characters (Marth/Lucina), the others are different archetypes and styles. I would never drop Ike just because he looks kinda similar to Marth, and in motion they look wildly different. You could give Ike a greathammer and you would barely have to change his animations.

    Although, to be honest, prepping ourselves for a roster cut for the next game might be smart. We're gonna lose a lot and it already hurts to think about.

    Yeah, like most of the characters I usually play as in Ultimate are probably gonna get cut. Daisy, Dr. Mario, Toon Link, Byleth, Corrin, Lucina, Ken, and if 3rd party guest characters get dropped then Cloud, Simon, Mega Man, and Terry too. Which is admittedly part of why I'm salty about this discussion.

    But I honestly just get tired of all the repetitive whining about 'anime swordsmen'. It doesn't help that the go-to assertion that they are all the same is factually incorrect.

    H3Knuckles on
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  • KupiKupi Registered User regular
    For what it's worth, I'm not coming from a position that Fire Emblem isn't a good series. I'm strictly coming at the premise of cutting characters from the idea that development resources are limited, and I'd like to see the playable cast come from as broad an array of games as possible. (Granted, we're actually kind of running out of headline first-party Nintendo game series to draw from, too.)

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  • PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    H3Knuckles wrote: »
    H3Knuckles wrote: »
    I think unless they're gonna start cutting clones and echoes en masse (so Luigi, Doctor Mario, Daisy, Young Link, Toon Link, Ganondorf, Falco, Wolf, Dark Pit, Isabelle, Ken, Richter; some real fan favorites there), they could just keep the FE characters and people should get over themselves and stop complaining about the presence of characters they're not into.

    Like it boggles my mind how much time and effort gets put into posting about how and why to cut the Fire Emblem representation. I'm not even really a fan of the series (I only own Three Houses, which I've barely played, and a used copy of Roy's GBA title that had a busted save battery so I never got past the intro), but it's crazy to me how hostile you all are to their inclusion. There's 86 playable characters in Smash Ultimate, why is that the one series you all are so dead set on cutting characters from? How would you feel if it was the Mario series (11) or Pokemon (8) that people were always going on and on about needing to be cut back?

    I don't have the same heat as you do, but I'm in agreement. Don't understand the FE hate, the series has had a modern renaissance and is kicking ass, why shouldn't a Nintendo property be in Smash? And while there are very similar characters (Marth/Lucina), the others are different archetypes and styles. I would never drop Ike just because he looks kinda similar to Marth, and in motion they look wildly different. You could give Ike a greathammer and you would barely have to change his animations.

    Although, to be honest, prepping ourselves for a roster cut for the next game might be smart. We're gonna lose a lot and it already hurts to think about.

    Yeah, like most of the characters I usually play as in Ultimate are probably gonna get cut. Daisy, Dr. Mario, Toon Link, Byleth, Corrin, Lucina, Ken, and if 3rd party guest characters get dropped then Cloud, Simon, Mega Man, and Terry too. Which is admittedly part of why I'm salty about this discussion.

    But I honestly just get tired of all the repetitive whining about 'anime swordsmen'. It doesn't help that the go-to assertion that they are all the same is factually incorrect.

    There's heavy overlap between Lucina/Chrom/Marth/Roy, but past that they get more distinct. I'd love to see Anna added (she's not really the face of the series... but they've made her more prominent as a recurring character), but I think Lucina should probably just be an echo on Marth, etc to prune the list.

    Mega Man I don't think is going anywhere though - he's had a huge presence on Nintendo systems. (I think basically all the 3rd party chars who've had multiple showings are probably safe unless the roster gets seriously pared back).

    I think that in general they can be more aggressive on echo fighters as a way to trim the list though.

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