it's also why sony are desperate to make their spider-franchises work no matter how awkward and dumb they seem
I still legit cannot believe they are trying to make a Kraven the Hunter movie. Literally of all the Spiderman characters you could pick for a solo film, seriously? I mean, Morbius was dumb but at least he *kind* of works in a "he's sort of a vampire so ok" way.
Like, Sony... Black Cat is RIGHT THERE.....
...and also kind of a carbon copy of Catwoman.
I mean, I like Black Cat and how she interacts with Spidey, but yeah, most people would assume she's a ripoff.
*shrug* She's a well established character, I doubt anyone would *really* care. I mean, Iron Man is basically fancy suit Batman :P
Rubbish. Other than the whole playboy vigilante with toys thing, I don't see much similarity between Batman and Iron Man, in terms of their personalities and function on the teams.
Thirith on
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
Just the fact that Bruce Wayne is essentially a non-entity mask that Batman wears while Tony Stark is the guy in the Iron Man suit is enough to pretty thoroughly differentiate the two, in terms of what stories are told around them.
That said, there's never been a good live-action movie with Catwoman in it, much less a good Catwoman movie, so it's not like a Black Cat film would be fighting an established corpus of Catwoman work. I don't really know how you do a Black Cat movie absent Spiderman without it just being a generic (albeit solo) heist film, but I wouldn't have guessed anyone would even try to do a Venom movie without Spiderman, much less make 2 that at least some people like, so presumably somebody out there could make it work.
Batman Returns is a decent movie and Batman '66 is a riot.
Batman Returns is okay. I'd rank it below every MCU film and at least some of the DCEU. I'll give you it's better than Venom, though, so I guess a Sony Black Cat solo film in their Spiderless-Men Cinematic Universe would be fighting something of a high bar. For them.
I don't think it's fair to compare anything to Batman '66 because you absolutely could not make Adam West Batman on purpose today. I don't know exactly how that level of camp happens but I have to believe it's not something that can be summoned up on demand.
At its highest points, I'd put Batman Returns above so much of the MCU (and I'm generally a defender of the MCU), but it's inconsistent. There are moments that work beautifully, in that early Tim Burton way, and there are others that are just... huh. Pretty much everything with Catwoman, though, is *chef's kiss*, as far as I'm concerned.
Thirith on
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
I think the Burton Batman films are both pretty good, but they are very much 'Batman through the eyes of Tim Burton' and I can see why that doesn't work for some people.
And a film all the way back in 1989! He even had two solo books on the go in the eighties, something very few Marvel characters have ever managed.
The Punisher is a handy character for movies and adaptations because he doesn't need any other part of the Marvel universe to work, or even any suspension of disbelief over powers or his origin. He's just an insane, scary war veteran killing criminals.
Ironically, that makes his previous solo movies boring because that's a dime-a-dozen in cinema. He only really adds anything when he's in contrast to superheroes.
I haven't read them so that could be true, but I'd guess that their medium of comics creates that contrast given its (admittedly unfair) association with superheroes in general. Agree to disagree
Silk has been such a wet fart in the comics that I honestly can't see them ever evolving the property. Anything that they would do there they'll likely just do for Spider-Gwen instead.
it's also why sony are desperate to make their spider-franchises work no matter how awkward and dumb they seem
I still legit cannot believe they are trying to make a Kraven the Hunter movie. Literally of all the Spiderman characters you could pick for a solo film, seriously? I mean, Morbius was dumb but at least he *kind* of works in a "he's sort of a vampire so ok" way.
Like, Sony... Black Cat is RIGHT THERE.....
Kraven is the villain in one of the classic spidey stories. Before they resurrected him like 3 different times and also his kids or whatever.
Silk has been such a wet fart in the comics that I honestly can't see them ever evolving the property. Anything that they would do there they'll likely just do for Spider-Gwen instead.
I think Kraven is a great candidate for a movie villain, he's also the driving force behind one of Spider-Man's best stories ever in Kraven's Last Hunt.
I also think the expansion of the Kraven character by adding in his family has actually improved the character and made him even more apt for a film adaptation.
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ShadowfireVermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered Userregular
Batman Returns is a decent movie and Batman '66 is a riot.
Batman Returns is okay. I'd rank it below every MCU film and at least some of the DCEU. I'll give you it's better than Venom, though, so I guess a Sony Black Cat solo film in their Spiderless-Men Cinematic Universe would be fighting something of a high bar. For them.
I don't think it's fair to compare anything to Batman '66 because you absolutely could not make Adam West Batman on purpose today. I don't know exactly how that level of camp happens but I have to believe it's not something that can be summoned up on demand.
I'm kind of in this boat. Batman Returns was just too weird and gross, aka basically Tim Burton cranked up to 11. I've never been a big fan of it, but it's "ok." (mostly though I just find all the maniac clowns so incredibly stupid)
(but overall I'm not the biggest Tim Burton fan... stuff like Beetlejuice was great, but then he goes and makes ALL his stuff like Beetlejuice and it's kind of tiring...)
Batman Returns is a decent movie and Batman '66 is a riot.
Batman Returns is okay. I'd rank it below every MCU film and at least some of the DCEU. I'll give you it's better than Venom, though, so I guess a Sony Black Cat solo film in their Spiderless-Men Cinematic Universe would be fighting something of a high bar. For them.
I don't think it's fair to compare anything to Batman '66 because you absolutely could not make Adam West Batman on purpose today. I don't know exactly how that level of camp happens but I have to believe it's not something that can be summoned up on demand.
I'm kind of in this boat. Batman Returns was just too weird and gross, aka basically Tim Burton cranked up to 11. I've never been a big fan of it, but it's "ok." (mostly though I just find all the maniac clowns so incredibly stupid)
(but overall I'm not the biggest Tim Burton fan... stuff like Beetlejuice was great, but then he goes and makes ALL his stuff like Beetlejuice and it's kind of tiring...)
Tim Burton is like the photographic negative of Wes Anderson. It doesn't matter what the plot is or who's in the film, you know you're going to get weird, colorful, periodically-borderline-disgusting visual spectacles and probably some memorable scenes or lines out of it. Sometimes you want to watch a Tim Burton movie and, in those times, Batman Returns is fine. But if I want to watch a Batman movie, I'm pretty much never going to pick that. Of his two, I think Batman works better than Returns just because it's as much a Joker movie as a Batman movie and if any mainstream comics character is going to fit a Burton aesthetic, it's The Joker as played by Jack Nicholson.
I wasn't familiar with Silk, having not kept up with SpiderMan comics in a long time, but the wikipedia page points out there's already a Cindy Moon in the MCU so I guess there's a non-zero chance they intend to expand the Spider Crew in that direction. Though I kinda get the feeling that they just stick characters and references to characters into all these films half as easter eggs for comic fans and half to give them an easy lever to pull if they need another hero to show up.
The Punisher’s best stories are non-superhero ones. Ennis’s Max series is the absolute high point.
The netflix Punisher series was a colossal let down after reading the Ennis Max storylines. The Slavers, Barracuda, Up is Down and Black is White. Just so good and so many great (and wildly depressing) little moments.
The Punisher’s best stories are non-superhero ones. Ennis’s Max series is the absolute high point.
The netflix Punisher series was a colossal let down after reading the Ennis Max storylines. The Slavers, Barracda, Up is Down and Black is White. Just so good and so many great (and wildly depressing) little moments.
Netflix Punisher was such a fundamental misunderstanding of the character that I have to assume the writers never flipped through a single comic.
What an absolute waste of the character and of Jon Bernthal's performance. Especially disappointing when they got him so right in Daredevil season 2.
AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
edited December 2021
Returns is a visual masterpiece with one of the dumbest and most nonsensical plots ever put to film.
“Crazy industrialist gets upset he can’t get permits to build his nonfunctional power plant, so he tries to recall the mayor and install a puppet, who happens to be a circus freak/ninja turtle; ultimately he is thwarted by his secretary after a head injury gives her kung fu gymnastic powers.”
It could have been worse, believe it or not. Sam Hamm's original script involved Catwoman and Penguin searching for buried treasure.
Side note: DC is putting out a comic right now called Batman 89 written by Hamm that's a direct sequel to Returns. They draw Bruce to look like Keaton and Harvey like Billy Dee.
The Punisher’s best stories are non-superhero ones. Ennis’s Max series is the absolute high point.
The netflix Punisher series was a colossal let down after reading the Ennis Max storylines. The Slavers, Barracda, Up is Down and Black is White. Just so good and so many great (and wildly depressing) little moments.
Netflix Punisher was such a fundamental misunderstanding of the character that I have to assume the writers never flipped through a single comic.
What an absolute waste of the character and of Jon Bernthal's performance. Especially disappointing when they got him so right in Daredevil season 2.
I thought his time in Daredevil was excellent, it was his standalone series that was a letdown.
The Punisher’s best stories are non-superhero ones. Ennis’s Max series is the absolute high point.
The netflix Punisher series was a colossal let down after reading the Ennis Max storylines. The Slavers, Barracda, Up is Down and Black is White. Just so good and so many great (and wildly depressing) little moments.
Netflix Punisher was such a fundamental misunderstanding of the character that I have to assume the writers never flipped through a single comic.
What an absolute waste of the character and of Jon Bernthal's performance. Especially disappointing when they got him so right in Daredevil season 2.
Yet, the scene set to White Buffalo inescapably captures the entire essence of the Punisher comic series.
The Punisher’s best stories are non-superhero ones. Ennis’s Max series is the absolute high point.
The netflix Punisher series was a colossal let down after reading the Ennis Max storylines. The Slavers, Barracda, Up is Down and Black is White. Just so good and so many great (and wildly depressing) little moments.
Netflix Punisher was such a fundamental misunderstanding of the character that I have to assume the writers never flipped through a single comic.
What an absolute waste of the character and of Jon Bernthal's performance. Especially disappointing when they got him so right in Daredevil season 2.
I thought his time in Daredevil was excellent, it was his standalone series that was a letdown.
The thing with Punisher is he's a villain who kills other villains. If the show or movie makes him out to be a hero, it has failed. That's something the first half of Daredevil season 2 did right. Frank was a way of getting Matt to question his methods.
it's also why sony are desperate to make their spider-franchises work no matter how awkward and dumb they seem
I still legit cannot believe they are trying to make a Kraven the Hunter movie. Literally of all the Spiderman characters you could pick for a solo film, seriously? I mean, Morbius was dumb but at least he *kind* of works in a "he's sort of a vampire so ok" way.
Like, Sony... Black Cat is RIGHT THERE.....
...and also kind of a carbon copy of Catwoman.
I mean, I like Black Cat and how she interacts with Spidey, but yeah, most people would assume she's a ripoff.
I was honestly excited for the Silver and Black movie, I think it had potential.
Daredevil was popular enough to have his own solo book for years and years even though he's not really on any big teams (until Bendis put him on the Avengers). It's a smaller fanbase but in terms of popularity and cultural recognition he's a solid B, I think.
Thinking about it, Daredevil has had maybe more absolutely classic runs than any other Marvel character. Partly, I think, because his book is usually kept far aware from crossovers and its creators are allowed to do their thing.
Eh, it wasn't until maybe Guardian Devil and arguably really when Bendis/Maleev came on that he was really prestige. Before that he was loved, but still not that popular. Now he's got much better recognition, but in 2003? Not so much. Now, there are those AMAZING stories prior to GD (I read Born Again annually, hell it's almost the main reason I love Cap as much as I do), but who out of real comic nerds really read it at the time?
Edit:
Oh and Playing to the Camera was a dumb as hell story line that I ate up.
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"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
That said, there's never been a good live-action movie with Catwoman in it, much less a good Catwoman movie, so it's not like a Black Cat film would be fighting an established corpus of Catwoman work. I don't really know how you do a Black Cat movie absent Spiderman without it just being a generic (albeit solo) heist film, but I wouldn't have guessed anyone would even try to do a Venom movie without Spiderman, much less make 2 that at least some people like, so presumably somebody out there could make it work.
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
Look, I love Batman '66 and I have a fond place in my heart for Batman Returns, but I don't think either is a good movie.
Michelle Pfeiffer made me FEEL some things.
Meow, indeed.
Choose Your Own Chat 1 Choose Your Own Chat 2 Choose Your Own Chat 3
Selina's last line is a classic for the ages.
Batman Returns is okay. I'd rank it below every MCU film and at least some of the DCEU. I'll give you it's better than Venom, though, so I guess a Sony Black Cat solo film in their Spiderless-Men Cinematic Universe would be fighting something of a high bar. For them.
I don't think it's fair to compare anything to Batman '66 because you absolutely could not make Adam West Batman on purpose today. I don't know exactly how that level of camp happens but I have to believe it's not something that can be summoned up on demand.
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
Wow. I know personal opinions and all, but wow.
Ironically, that makes his previous solo movies boring because that's a dime-a-dozen in cinema. He only really adds anything when he's in contrast to superheroes.
Choose Your Own Chat 1 Choose Your Own Chat 2 Choose Your Own Chat 3
Internet says it was called Silver and Black, which isn't the worst name really.
Silk is someone recent that could be a great lead for a series/movie but you would have to really re work a lot of her origin.
Oh my god.
Kraven is the villain in one of the classic spidey stories. Before they resurrected him like 3 different times and also his kids or whatever.
Her intro was just... not good.
I also think the expansion of the Kraven character by adding in his family has actually improved the character and made him even more apt for a film adaptation.
Bring me pictures of Spider-Man!
...'s summoning circle!
I'm kind of in this boat. Batman Returns was just too weird and gross, aka basically Tim Burton cranked up to 11. I've never been a big fan of it, but it's "ok." (mostly though I just find all the maniac clowns so incredibly stupid)
(but overall I'm not the biggest Tim Burton fan... stuff like Beetlejuice was great, but then he goes and makes ALL his stuff like Beetlejuice and it's kind of tiring...)
Which is too bad because her visual design is great, but boy they have just not found a good story for her
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Tim Burton is like the photographic negative of Wes Anderson. It doesn't matter what the plot is or who's in the film, you know you're going to get weird, colorful, periodically-borderline-disgusting visual spectacles and probably some memorable scenes or lines out of it. Sometimes you want to watch a Tim Burton movie and, in those times, Batman Returns is fine. But if I want to watch a Batman movie, I'm pretty much never going to pick that. Of his two, I think Batman works better than Returns just because it's as much a Joker movie as a Batman movie and if any mainstream comics character is going to fit a Burton aesthetic, it's The Joker as played by Jack Nicholson.
I wasn't familiar with Silk, having not kept up with SpiderMan comics in a long time, but the wikipedia page points out there's already a Cindy Moon in the MCU so I guess there's a non-zero chance they intend to expand the Spider Crew in that direction. Though I kinda get the feeling that they just stick characters and references to characters into all these films half as easter eggs for comic fans and half to give them an easy lever to pull if they need another hero to show up.
The netflix Punisher series was a colossal let down after reading the Ennis Max storylines. The Slavers, Barracuda, Up is Down and Black is White. Just so good and so many great (and wildly depressing) little moments.
Netflix Punisher was such a fundamental misunderstanding of the character that I have to assume the writers never flipped through a single comic.
What an absolute waste of the character and of Jon Bernthal's performance. Especially disappointing when they got him so right in Daredevil season 2.
Do... Re... Mi... So... Fa.... Do... Re.... Do...
Forget it...
“Crazy industrialist gets upset he can’t get permits to build his nonfunctional power plant, so he tries to recall the mayor and install a puppet, who happens to be a circus freak/ninja turtle; ultimately he is thwarted by his secretary after a head injury gives her kung fu gymnastic powers.”
Side note: DC is putting out a comic right now called Batman 89 written by Hamm that's a direct sequel to Returns. They draw Bruce to look like Keaton and Harvey like Billy Dee.
Her solo series dug into both her asian heritage, and her trying to find a place in the world and her family. It's very much worth checking out.
This sounds like a way cooler movie to me :P
I thought his time in Daredevil was excellent, it was his standalone series that was a letdown.
Batman 2: The Legend of Joker's Gold.
Yet, the scene set to White Buffalo inescapably captures the entire essence of the Punisher comic series.
See, this is the shit I'm talking about.
Steam: MightyPotatoKing
Yeah, in movies, he's just a death wish knock-off
I was honestly excited for the Silver and Black movie, I think it had potential.
Eh, it wasn't until maybe Guardian Devil and arguably really when Bendis/Maleev came on that he was really prestige. Before that he was loved, but still not that popular. Now he's got much better recognition, but in 2003? Not so much. Now, there are those AMAZING stories prior to GD (I read Born Again annually, hell it's almost the main reason I love Cap as much as I do), but who out of real comic nerds really read it at the time?
Edit:
Oh and Playing to the Camera was a dumb as hell story line that I ate up.