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[Hiberno-Britannic Politics] - Tories Dropping like Johnson's Flies

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    BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited January 2022
    I’m not sure it’s in her purview to determine whether criminal acts took place, which stories will claim proves they didn’t do anything.

    It’s disgusting that the police are saying no no we can’t investigate there isn’t enough evidence.

    Bogart on
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    Werewolf2000adWerewolf2000ad Suckers, I know exactly what went wrong. Registered User regular


    "Any other leader would be 20 points ahead" crowds' eyeballs now spinning like fruit machine reels as they look for the exits with increasing anxiety.

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    japanjapan Registered User regular
    It'll be interesting to see if anyone in opposition wants to take another tilt at the issue of the head of the Metropolitan Police being appointed by the home secretary

    It happens because there are some national policing functions which are run by the Met, and arguably for those functions that kind of link to the cabinet needs to be maintained, but when it comes to operational, local level policing it creates these kind of issues (if one wanted to get into the conspiracy theories there's the whole issue of Cressida Dick being former MI5 and the propriety of the blurring of those lines)

    It's one of those reforms that is obviously necessary, but hard to get any momentum behind because the potential problems are kind of internecine and theoretical, but this gives a clear cut example of a failing that could be used as a political lever

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    Red or AliveRed or Alive Registered User regular
    "We'll reform the London Met so that government is held accountable to the same laws as everyone else."

    I don't think that's a complicated or controversial message. I do think police reform will end up at the bottom of the priority list if and when the tories are kicked out, though, given the new government would have to tackle the consequences of a decade's worth of austerity and the ongoing issues with Brexit stymying growth.

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    japanjapan Registered User regular
    "We'll reform the London Met so that government is held accountable to the same laws as everyone else."

    I don't think that's a complicated or controversial message. I do think police reform will end up at the bottom of the priority list if and when the tories are kicked out, though, given the new government would have to tackle the consequences of a decade's worth of austerity and the ongoing issues with Brexit stymying growth.

    It isn't, but in the past there hasn't been an actual example to point to, so the argument centres around: "what if, hypothetically, the cabinet put political pressure on the Met not to investigate certain crimes involving the government", and that had just enough of an air of implausibility to it, and was sufficiently conspiracy theory adjacent, that politicians tended not to be willing to stick their necks out over it. Plus the attack line from government is an easy one: political interference with the police (ironically)

    We're now at the point where the Johnson government has sufficiently blown through all the principles of "gentlemanly conduct" that underpins this kind of thing that it's probably now a tractable political issue.

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    Alistair HuttonAlistair Hutton Dr EdinburghRegistered User regular
    The Met has cross party support on being corruptly incompetent.

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    Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    Echo wrote: »
    “There was a pattern throughout. He just simply did not think about following the rules. They were not for him.”

    They never have been, so why start now?

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    EchoEcho ski-bap ba-dapModerator mod
    Echo wrote: »
    “There was a pattern throughout. He just simply did not think about following the rules. They were not for him.”

    They never have been, so why start now?

    "But ignoring the rules isn't supposed to harm us!"

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    japanjapan Registered User regular
    edited January 2022
    Nadine Dorries announcing a £2bn cut in BBC funding, freezing the licence fee until 2024

    Seems to be suggesting the intention is to defund and privatise it completely at that time

    japan on
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    altidaltid Registered User regular
    They're not being shy about it at all - they're killing off the BBC in 2027:
    The BBC licence fee will be abolished in 2027 and the broadcaster’s funding will be frozen for the next two years, the government has said, in an announcement that will force the broadcaster to close services and make further redundancies.
    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2022/jan/16/bbc-licence-fee-to-be-abolished-in-2027-and-funding-frozen

    This is just what the tories do. They underfund, interfere with and destroy public institutions to the point where they're non functional. They then sell them off to their mates for cheap.

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    japanjapan Registered User regular
    Cross another emotive reason for the indy-hesitant off the list, I suppose.

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    MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    altid wrote: »
    This is just what the tories do. They underfund, interfere with and destroy public institutions to the point where they're non functional. They then sell them off to their mates for cheap.

    Not just Tories. Modern "conservatism".

    "This government thing that works? We're gonna fuck it up to prove it needs to be sold off."

    Seen it in public transport and banking locally, and god knows how many different things by Republicans.

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    altidaltid Registered User regular
    Should add that this announcement is all part of 'operation save big dog' and 'operation red meat' - announcing 'populist' rubbish with the sole intention of trying to drum up support for a failed Prime Minister. Other reported policies include using the military to 'crack down' on channel crossings - after all, what could possibly go wrong when using the military for a civil policing task?

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    Rhesus PositiveRhesus Positive GNU Terry Pratchett Registered User regular
    Looking forward to the BBC articles about this

    "Maybe we should be destroyed: let's check Twitter for your views"
    "How the Trans Agenda led to this"
    "How the destruction of the BBC is bad for Labour"

    [Muffled sounds of gorilla violence]
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    Jam WarriorJam Warrior Registered User regular
    I imagine this one is more dropping unpopular news where it will be mostly lost in the maelstrom of other ongoing events.

    MhCw7nZ.gif
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    CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    Does make you wonder if they might be a little bit more Labour friendly now that is a directly existential issue for them? Probably not.

    Not having had an actual "TV" TV for years now I guess the only thing I'll miss about the BBC is it's online news, which dispite it's faults remains one of the better options for a balanced news diet (a sad fact in and of itself).

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    Brovid HasselsmofBrovid Hasselsmof [Growling historic on the fury road] Registered User regular
    Their nature documents would be a very sad loss. The Planet Earth / Blue Planet / Life of Plants etc shows are worth the TV licence alone imo.

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    surrealitychecksurrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
    an interesting discussion of boris from 2 former conservative members though perhaps not former conservatives (peter oborne and dominic grieve) - https://youtu.be/ITg4bLh9Shs?t=1778 - oborne notable as somebody who has been documenting johnsons serial dishonesty from the beginning and grieve as somebody who was tragically serious about policy and law...!

    obF2Wuw.png
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    jaziekjaziek Bad at everything And mad about it.Registered User regular
    edited January 2022
    Casual wrote: »
    Does make you wonder if they might be a little bit more Labour friendly now that is a directly existential issue for them? Probably not.

    Not having had an actual "TV" TV for years now I guess the only thing I'll miss about the BBC is it's online news, which dispite it's faults remains one of the better options for a balanced news diet (a sad fact in and of itself).

    https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2022/01/13/bbc-flat-earthers-trans-rights/ "Balance"

    lol, good riddance. Call me an accelerationist, whatever. I will shed no tears for an organisation that's done so much damage to the lives of people like me.

    jaziek on
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    HerrCronHerrCron It that wickedly supports taxation Registered User regular
    I imagine this one is more dropping unpopular news where it will be mostly lost in the maelstrom of other ongoing events.

    Yeah, if there wasn't an ongoing omnishambles I can't imagine them having the brass neck to try and push this.

    sig.gif
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    CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    jaziek wrote: »
    Casual wrote: »
    Does make you wonder if they might be a little bit more Labour friendly now that is a directly existential issue for them? Probably not.

    Not having had an actual "TV" TV for years now I guess the only thing I'll miss about the BBC is it's online news, which dispite it's faults remains one of the better options for a balanced news diet (a sad fact in and of itself).

    https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2022/01/13/bbc-flat-earthers-trans-rights/ "Balance"

    lol, good riddance. Call me an accelerationist, whatever. I will shed no tears for an organisation that's done so much damage to the lives of people like me.

    Yes, I'm sure once news coverage is reduced to the Sun, the Torygraph and the Daily Mail things will get much better. Since less bad is always worse than worst.

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    jaziekjaziek Bad at everything And mad about it.Registered User regular
    edited January 2022
    Casual wrote: »
    jaziek wrote: »
    Casual wrote: »
    Does make you wonder if they might be a little bit more Labour friendly now that is a directly existential issue for them? Probably not.

    Not having had an actual "TV" TV for years now I guess the only thing I'll miss about the BBC is it's online news, which dispite it's faults remains one of the better options for a balanced news diet (a sad fact in and of itself).

    https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2022/01/13/bbc-flat-earthers-trans-rights/ "Balance"

    lol, good riddance. Call me an accelerationist, whatever. I will shed no tears for an organisation that's done so much damage to the lives of people like me.

    Yes, I'm sure once news coverage is reduced to the Sun, the Torygraph and the Daily Mail things will get much better. Since less bad is always worse than worst.

    The stuff the BBC put out last year about people like me was significantly worse than anything from the Sun or the Mail. The Sun didn't run a story from a known rapist calling for lynching all trans people. The BBC did. Am I supposed to have some reverence for this hallowed british institution just because it's old and nice and polite and made all the TV that everyone loves? I don't.

    The BBC cannot now, and never will, make anything "better". It is completely rotten to the core, and there is absolutely nothing you could do short of tearing the whole thing down and starting again that would would fix it. The same is true of every other media outlet in the UK, but I just despise this idea that the BBC is somehow different. It's just nonsense. There's nothing special about it, it's exactly the same revolving door of dickheads as the rest of the british political establishment. One less of these things will make zero difference to anyone.

    I seriously don't know how you come away from reading a thing saying "We will platform flat earthers if we think there are enough of them" and think "ah yes, this is a worthwhile thing to keep around".

    jaziek on
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    [Expletive deleted][Expletive deleted] The mediocre doctor NorwayRegistered User regular
    jaziek wrote: »
    Casual wrote: »
    jaziek wrote: »
    Casual wrote: »
    Does make you wonder if they might be a little bit more Labour friendly now that is a directly existential issue for them? Probably not.

    Not having had an actual "TV" TV for years now I guess the only thing I'll miss about the BBC is it's online news, which dispite it's faults remains one of the better options for a balanced news diet (a sad fact in and of itself).

    https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2022/01/13/bbc-flat-earthers-trans-rights/ "Balance"

    lol, good riddance. Call me an accelerationist, whatever. I will shed no tears for an organisation that's done so much damage to the lives of people like me.

    Yes, I'm sure once news coverage is reduced to the Sun, the Torygraph and the Daily Mail things will get much better. Since less bad is always worse than worst.

    The BBC cannot now, and never will, make anything "better". It is completely rotten to the core, and there is absolutely nothing you could do short of tearing the whole thing down and starting again that would would fix it. The same is true of every other media outlet in the UK, but I just despise this idea that the BBC is somehow different. It's just nonsense. There's nothing special about it, it's exactly the same revolving door of dickheads as the rest of the british political establishment. One less of these things will make zero difference to anyone.

    I seriously don't know how you come away from reading a thing saying "We will platform flat earthers if we think there are enough of them" and think "ah yes, this is a worthwhile thing to keep around".

    The BBC World Service (radio) was airing pro-trans broadcasts last year, if nothing else.

    Sic transit gloria mundi.
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    japanjapan Registered User regular
    edited January 2022
    "The BBC" is not "BBC News", is the thing, though I acknowledge its awful transphobia. I do think that transphobia seems to be a general problem of a columnist/commentator clique within the UK news industry rather than something unique to the BBC. I think it's potentially more damaging and painful coming from the BBC because it holds itself up as impartial in the way that, for instance, the spectator doesn't.

    One aspect which would be a huge loss is that the BBC operates as de facto subsidy for UK artists, performers, and related professions. Many people have careers because the BBC commissioned or hired them, or just gave them access to an audience, in circumstances where it's unlikely that a purely commercially focused broadcaster or other media organisation would.

    As a result, there's a whole ecosystem and industry around media in various forms that probably wouldn't exist if the BBC wasn't there as a platform for that output.

    Some of that activity goes on to become valuable export activity. Some of it makes for UK performers becoming megastars earning huge amounts of money abroad and paying UK taxes. Not all of it does, but you can't get those outcomes without investment in the sector as a whole. The Tory line of treating it like a business and effectively saying "fund the parts that make money and don't fund the parts that don't" is as simplistic and wrongheaded as an MBA saying they'll only spend on R&D if it's guaranteed to lead to a commercially viable product.

    japan on
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    SharpyVIISharpyVII Registered User regular
    Isn't the BBC pretty popular as a whole?

    The government has also voiced it's displeasure at channel 4 so they're accelerating their plans to destroy anything that holds them to account.

    The Tory press has also been running articles about how the BBC won't stop until Boris is toppled.

    Conveniently ignoring that it was ITV and The Mirror that broke all the parties in lockdown stories.

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    AlphaRomeroAlphaRomero Registered User regular
    SharpyVII wrote: »
    Isn't the BBC pretty popular as a whole?

    The government has also voiced it's displeasure at channel 4 so they're accelerating their plans to destroy anything that holds them to account.

    The Tory press has also been running articles about how the BBC won't stop until Boris is toppled.

    Conveniently ignoring that it was ITV and The Mirror that broke all the parties in lockdown stories.

    Nadine Dorrie was saying that her constituents only tell her how great a job Boris is doing with vaccine rollouts and such. They're just lying see you next Tuesdays. Could you imagine if you were actually held to account for lying in such a prominent position? As someone pointed out earlier, you can't even call someone out for lying in Parliament.

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    klemmingklemming Registered User regular
    edited January 2022
    Party of this is the argument that the BBC has a clear left-wing bias.
    Whatever replaces them will not be an improvement.

    klemming on
    Nobody remembers the singer. The song remains.
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    japanjapan Registered User regular
    The BBC is popular, but they'll attack it the same way they do the NHS, which is by nebulously taking about "waste" and taxpayer value for money

    This works because it isn't necessary to identify any waste in particular, you can do it just by throwing around numbers which sound incomprehensibly large to the general public absent context

    It also gives them a means to attack things that don't affect a majority or a significant number of people, like minority language provision, or educational programming aligned to school or undergraduate teaching programmes. Often this is plain old right-wing wedge issue stuff, but it's also precisely the kind of things that the BBC exists to do, because it has cultural value but wouldn't be provided by commercial entities.

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    jaziekjaziek Bad at everything And mad about it.Registered User regular
    On what planet is that actually true.
    The bbc has been a tory mouthpiece for well over a decade.

    What I can't get my head around with the argument that the BBC is worth defending or saving is just...

    How do you imagine that the BBC gets any better? When both major parties are staunchly against spending anything on public services, and very much committed to fighting an endless culture war?

    What does a good BBC even look like? When do you want to go back to when there was some actual set of principles or standards that was adhered to? I don't think that was ever the case, and I think most of it is just nostalgia.

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    DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    jaziek wrote: »
    The bbc has been a tory mouthpiece for well over a decade.

    There is a difference between being constrained into "Both Sides"-ing an issue and being a Conservative mouthpiece.

    They tend to cover the latest stupid bullshit that Tories are pushing rather than being used to initiate it. In your environment where you have a bunch of tabloids to initiate the issue that is a bit of a moot point though.

    Nod. Get treat. PSN: Quippish
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    jaziekjaziek Bad at everything And mad about it.Registered User regular
    jaziek wrote: »
    The bbc has been a tory mouthpiece for well over a decade.

    There is a difference between being constrained into "Both Sides"-ing an issue and being a Conservative mouthpiece.

    They tend to cover the latest stupid bullshit that Tories are pushing rather than being used to initiate it. In your environment where you have a bunch of tabloids to initiate the issue that is a bit of a moot point though.

    If you're going to print outright lies as being the other "side" of an issue alongside the truth, and frame the two as equal, then no, there really is no difference.

    when you run a story about migrants drowning in the channel, choosing to feature both sides of the debate on whether it's good to let foreigners drown actually, is not a neutral position.

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    AlphaRomeroAlphaRomero Registered User regular
    That's literally the definition of neutral.

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    MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    That's literally the definition of neutral.

    No, it's the definition of "balanced". That's where media consistently keeps fucking up.

    Neutral is reporting the truth, without bias, including calling out bad faith.

    Balanced is giving equal weight to both sides even when one side is acting in bad faith.

    Still better than the alternative (as we see with FOX News), but not good.

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    Mr.WangtangMr.Wangtang Registered User regular
    klemming wrote: »
    Party of this is the argument that the BBC has a clear left-wing bias.
    Whatever replaces them will not be an improvement.

    The BBC is not BBC News, over 98% of BBC spend is not news content.

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    japanjapan Registered User regular
    BBC news definitely has a problem with its proximity to government

    Just look at Laura kuenssberg persistently and uncritically repeating tory attack lines

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    Alistair HuttonAlistair Hutton Dr EdinburghRegistered User regular
    japan wrote: »
    BBC news definitely has a problem with its proximity to government

    Just look at Laura kuenssberg persistently and uncritically repeating tory attack lines

    Or when she ran a spoiler interview with Aaron Banks to spike another journalist's story.

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    [Expletive deleted][Expletive deleted] The mediocre doctor NorwayRegistered User regular
    edited January 2022
    MorganV wrote: »
    That's literally the definition of neutral.

    No, it's the definition of "balanced". That's where media consistently keeps fucking up.

    Neutral is reporting the truth, without bias, including calling out bad faith.

    Balanced is giving equal weight to both sides even when one side is acting in bad faith.

    Still better than the alternative (as we see with FOX News), but not good.

    That definition of balanced falsely implies that there are exactly two sides to every issue.

    Some issues only have one side. Some issues have many (more than two) sides.

    But this idea of "balance" comes with and from a two-party system. But it is not reflective of reality.

    [Expletive deleted] on
    Sic transit gloria mundi.
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    BethrynBethryn Unhappiness is Mandatory Registered User regular
    Reaction has been largely positive on leftist UK twitter. Basically anyone defending the BBC there has revealed themselves as a despicable centrist.

    ...and of course, as always, Kill Hitler.
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    BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator mod
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    MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    MorganV wrote: »
    That's literally the definition of neutral.

    No, it's the definition of "balanced". That's where media consistently keeps fucking up.

    Neutral is reporting the truth, without bias, including calling out bad faith.

    Balanced is giving equal weight to both sides even when one side is acting in bad faith.

    Still better than the alternative (as we see with FOX News), but not good.

    That definition of balanced falsely implies that there are exactly two sides to every issue.

    Some issues only have one side. Some issues have many (more than two) sides.

    But this idea of "balance" comes with and from a two-party system. But it is not reflective of reality.

    That's the problem. If there's not two sides, "balanced media" allow the disaffected side (almost always conservatives) to make one up.

    Like as someone mentioned earlier, flat earthers. If conservatives took that up as a serious position, even if it's not fully in the affirmative, and more a "just asking questions, what do we really know?" position, "balanced" media would turn themselves into knots to try to give them a decent amount of time.

    Whereas neutral media would go "these people are crazy".

This discussion has been closed.