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[Final Fantasy]: My Way!

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  • shoeboxjeddyshoeboxjeddy Registered User regular
    It's also making the mistake of assuming, "depression is solved forever after catharsis!" Which, hey guess what? It's not.

    And I get it, no one wants heroes moping all the time. But I'm charitable to AC Cloud because the memes of emo sad boi are really overdone compared with A: the actual fucking trauma he goes through in FF7, B: him dealing with and putting the past behind him in a way that's just not possible in FF7 due to the plot being an ongoing crisis. Which leaves him no time to process and grieve.

    If Cloud's problems in AC were purely in his head, I'd probably be more into it. But he also has magic cancer, which doesn't add a whole lot to the story, imo.

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  • Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    edited January 18
    Andy Joe wrote: »
    To say that Cloud's real self is "cheerful" is a huge overstatement.

    Real, original Cloud is, at a minimum, enthusiastic and a talker, if sometimes an awkward one. Zack was definitely a talker and outright cheerful.

    When Cloud gets out of the Lifestream, he's not Original Cloud, he's Cloud as a mishmash of the kid he was, the failure he became, who he wanted to be (Zack), the person that made him want to be in SOLDIER (Sephiroth, who got an actual mental hook on him and not just Cloud mimicking his behavior), and the Cloud personality he made up after waking up in Midgar. I dunno what you'd call giving random Highwind crew compliments other than "cheerful", but at the very least post-Lifestream Cloud is strongly positive personality instead of a broody, mopey one. And everybody can tell the difference.

    I'm totally unforgiving of the direction AC takes with him because yes, dealing with depression and the like isn't a one-and-done sort of thing, but Cloud's issues are also heavily related to be fucked up by Mako and JENOVA cells. He endures a great deal to overcome those issues, Aerith's death is at least partially because she was trying to protect Cloud from Sephiroth and he knows it, and Tifa takes a huge risk to piece him back together. They save the whole damn world together and now have a bright Shinra-free (or at least Shinra-weakened) future. Then after that, he's got a crew of strongly supportive friends to the point where even the half-crazy semi-vampire wants to help him out.

    So just rolling immediately back to jerk loner Cloud for AC doesn't make any kind of narrative sense. We've already done that part, that Cloud shouldn't even exist anymore except as a memory. He's faced a lot worse than Mako cancer or whatever with the help of his friends, so no way does he run off and just leave them guessing until he rots away and dies; he'd dig into that shit with the rest of them and start finding solutions, especially seeing as it seems to be heavily targeting children. What's even the point of character progression if the writing rolls it all back the second they want Cloud to be stuck out in the middle of nowhere fighting random nobodies alone?

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  • BahamutZEROBahamutZERO Registered User regular
    edited January 18
    Andy Joe wrote: »
    To say that Cloud's real self is "cheerful" is a huge overstatement.

    Well, positive and upbeat at least. The kid that told Tifa he'd become a big time SOLDIER and come back to Nibelheim a hero one day.
    e: Enthusiastic is another word I'm looking for.

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  • ReznikReznik Registered User regular
    AC also brings Sephiroth back for no fucking reason other than gotta have a cool boss fight. I cut no slack to sequel material that insists on undoing the achievements of the heroes just because the villain is popular. Sephiroth returning in everything sucks. He's dead, leave him in the fucking ground. Killing Sephiroth was the capstone on Cloud's overall journey in FF7. Anything where he comes back after the fact is going to be an inferior retread of the original conflict.

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  • Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    The one good thing AC offered up to me was an actual ending. After 70-something hours engrossed in a story, an ambiguous not-ending is absolutely the last thing I want.

    Seeing Cloud rolled back just to rehash fighting Sephiroth was ugh-tastic, but at least I got to know for sure that they actually saved the planet and did something about whatever was left of Shin-Ra.

  • ReznikReznik Registered User regular
    I didn't really get "non-ending" from the original ending, tbh.

    Midgar overgrown + the sound of laughing children made me think "humanity has abandoned its planet-killing cities and moved on to live harmoniously with nature". Obviously sans-compilation it's an open to interpretation thing, but looking at it through that lens was satisfying to me. Planet's there and Red XIII is alive, which means that the rest of the party had to survive the ending since he was with them.

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    Forget it...
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  • BahamutZEROBahamutZERO Registered User regular
    edited January 18
    Yeah I don't know why everyone is so in love with the much more of a stretch interpretation that overgrown midgar ruins symbolizes humans were wiped out, as opposed to overgrown midgar ruins symbolizes humans abandoning mako power

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  • The WolfmanThe Wolfman Registered User regular
    For me, it's the lack of a proper "denouement". It's a big tense scene, Meteor is getting closer, it looks like Holy is failing. But then the Lifestream starts to surge up. Everybody looks shocked! And then... and then...

    What happens is little better than smashing to black and saying "And they all lived happily ever after.". Just picture any other film/game/story doing that, cutting to black and playing that message the second the villain is destroyed. Yeah, it's an ending, it's most likely narratively consistent (they all probably did go home after the fight and live happily ever after). It's hardly satisfying though. And to be clear, you hardly need some super involved denouement that wraps up every single last detail. We don't need a "LOTR"-esque 40m ending here. Hell, with Star Wars, from the Death Star exploding to the medal ceremony and credits is something like 4 scant minutes. But the ceremony is enough of an emotional closing. If it just ended at the explosion... yeah I'm sure a lot of people would go "...Wait that's it?!"

    That's what the ending is lacking. Or to be super specific, the final shot with XIII and the city is not enough of one.

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  • manwiththemachinegunmanwiththemachinegun METAL GEAR?! Registered User regular
    Reznik wrote: »
    AC also brings Sephiroth back for no fucking reason other than gotta have a cool boss fight. I cut no slack to sequel material that insists on undoing the achievements of the heroes just because the villain is popular. Sephiroth returning in everything sucks. He's dead, leave him in the fucking ground. Killing Sephiroth was the capstone on Cloud's overall journey in FF7. Anything where he comes back after the fact is going to be an inferior retread of the original conflict.

    Sephiroth returning is however the single most interesting bit of
    Re:Make, and him trying to change the timeline from the lifestream.
    . Like it or not, that plot point has developed in much more interesting ways than just his return. The world isn't destroyed by meteor, so it's hardly "undoing" the original FF7 victory.

    Qanamil
  • DelzhandDelzhand Hard to miss. Registered User regular
    I was going to say that the issue with AC is that Nomura is a terrible director, but he also directed the remake, so I dunno. Maybe he's better with a strong producer keeping his impulses in check?

  • BahamutZEROBahamutZERO Registered User regular
    People can get better at skills with practice too, Nomura's worked on a lot of stuff since whenever AC was. But probably also remake is not his baby alone yeah.

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  • EnlongEnlong Registered User regular
    edited January 18
    Sephiroth returning in AC is kinda interesting, in that the story is also fed up with him.

    Like the most referenced exchange in that film is:

    Cloud: "Go back to where you belong; in my memories."
    Sephiroth: "I will never be a memory."

    Like, Cloud want this asshole to stay dead and move on with his life, and Sephiroth simply won't accept that his time is done. Which contrasts with Aerith and Zack telling Cloud that he needs to let himself move on from their deaths. Cloud is learning the lesson the movie's story is trying to give him, and Sephiroth refuses to be a thing of the past.


    You can of course argue that this is the writers trying to eat a cake and still have a cake after; that they're writing a dozen stories with Sephiroth, while saying "oh, isn't it sad how we can't move on from Sephiroth?" But I do kinda like the idea of this guy embodying the opposite of the theme of the story.

    Enlong on
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  • ReznikReznik Registered User regular
    Reznik wrote: »
    AC also brings Sephiroth back for no fucking reason other than gotta have a cool boss fight. I cut no slack to sequel material that insists on undoing the achievements of the heroes just because the villain is popular. Sephiroth returning in everything sucks. He's dead, leave him in the fucking ground. Killing Sephiroth was the capstone on Cloud's overall journey in FF7. Anything where he comes back after the fact is going to be an inferior retread of the original conflict.

    Sephiroth returning is however the single most interesting bit of
    Re:Make, and him trying to change the timeline from the lifestream.
    . Like it or not, that plot point has developed in much more interesting ways than just his return. The world isn't destroyed by meteor, so it's hardly "undoing" the original FF7 victory.

    Hard disagree, but I won't go on my profanity-laden rant about how stupid I think Thing Mentioned In Spoiler is here.

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    Forget it...
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  • Andy JoeAndy Joe The AdirondacksRegistered User regular
    Andy Joe wrote: »
    To say that Cloud's real self is "cheerful" is a huge overstatement.

    Well, positive and upbeat at least. The kid that told Tifa he'd become a big time SOLDIER and come back to Nibelheim a hero one day.

    Let's not lose sight of the fact that it's the real Cloud who did all that instead of just telling Tifa he liked her, either. The guy's never been a perfect communicator!

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  • rahkeesh2000rahkeesh2000 Registered User regular
    So just rolling immediately back to jerk loner Cloud for AC doesn't make any kind of narrative sense. We've already done that part, that Cloud shouldn't even exist anymore except as a memory. He's faced a lot worse than Mako cancer or whatever with the help of his friends, so no way does he run off and just leave them guessing until he rots away and dies; he'd dig into that shit with the rest of them and start finding solutions, especially seeing as it seems to be heavily targeting children. What's even the point of character progression if the writing rolls it all back the second they want Cloud to be stuck out in the middle of nowhere fighting random nobodies alone?

    The main thing the FF7 Crewe was good at was killing things. Not curing diseases or guiding nations to a better path. The same person can react very differently to external threats they can beat up and internal threats they don't know a damn thing about. Their main plan for saving the planet was kill Sephiroth and let Aerith or Holy handle the rest. I don't know that it had to be done like AC handled it but having skills for taking down one kind of challenge doesn't automatically mean you have the same for taking on another. And in the end the crewe basically did nothing but wait till Sephrioth came out again so they could re-kill him and give Aerith another opening to actually fix things.

    manwiththemachinegun
  • UncleSporkyUncleSporky Registered User regular
    For me, it's the lack of a proper "denouement". It's a big tense scene, Meteor is getting closer, it looks like Holy is failing. But then the Lifestream starts to surge up. Everybody looks shocked! And then... and then...

    What happens is little better than smashing to black and saying "And they all lived happily ever after.". Just picture any other film/game/story doing that, cutting to black and playing that message the second the villain is destroyed. Yeah, it's an ending, it's most likely narratively consistent (they all probably did go home after the fight and live happily ever after). It's hardly satisfying though. And to be clear, you hardly need some super involved denouement that wraps up every single last detail. We don't need a "LOTR"-esque 40m ending here. Hell, with Star Wars, from the Death Star exploding to the medal ceremony and credits is something like 4 scant minutes. But the ceremony is enough of an emotional closing. If it just ended at the explosion... yeah I'm sure a lot of people would go "...Wait that's it?!"

    That's what the ending is lacking. Or to be super specific, the final shot with XIII and the city is not enough of one.

    The kind of ending I wanted FF7 to have is what we got in FF9.

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  • cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Regent Witches 4 HQRegistered User regular
    For me, it's the lack of a proper "denouement". It's a big tense scene, Meteor is getting closer, it looks like Holy is failing. But then the Lifestream starts to surge up. Everybody looks shocked! And then... and then...

    What happens is little better than smashing to black and saying "And they all lived happily ever after.". Just picture any other film/game/story doing that, cutting to black and playing that message the second the villain is destroyed. Yeah, it's an ending, it's most likely narratively consistent (they all probably did go home after the fight and live happily ever after). It's hardly satisfying though. And to be clear, you hardly need some super involved denouement that wraps up every single last detail. We don't need a "LOTR"-esque 40m ending here. Hell, with Star Wars, from the Death Star exploding to the medal ceremony and credits is something like 4 scant minutes. But the ceremony is enough of an emotional closing. If it just ended at the explosion... yeah I'm sure a lot of people would go "...Wait that's it?!"

    That's what the ending is lacking. Or to be super specific, the final shot with XIII and the city is not enough of one.

    The kind of ending I wanted FF7 to have is what we got in FF9.

    It's why I think of FF9 as more of a love story than FF8.

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  • rahkeesh2000rahkeesh2000 Registered User regular
    edited January 21
    There's a (beta) of a full 60 FPS mod for the OG PC FF7 via 7th Heaven 2.0. All animations and scrolling at a smooth 60 on world, field, and battle, compared to the original 15-30. You can see a comparison starting here.

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  • DelzhandDelzhand Hard to miss. Registered User regular
    I couldn't tell in the field and town, but yeah the battle was night and day

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  • ReznikReznik Registered User regular
    OG FF7 modders are actual wizards. I saw some of the documentation they compiled about the structure of the FF7PC engine and it is an arcane language held together by duct tape.

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    Forget it...
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  • Kai_SanKai_San Commonly known as Klineshrike! Registered User regular
    The fact some people are finally modding translations of PS2 games is a freaking miracle I think as well.

    But yeah I think players are hell bent to make FF7's original release into the remake they originally wanted.

    italianranma
  • manwiththemachinegunmanwiththemachinegun METAL GEAR?! Registered User regular
    I've already done a full Ninostyle + Chaos run and it was compeltely worth it.

  • italianranmaitalianranma Registered User regular
    I got a PS5 for Christmas! Of course the first thing I downloaded was FFVIIR Intergrade, but since my PS4 is still in-transit from my previous overseas assignment I couldn't port over my save data. I meant to play FFVIIR again anyway so no big loss there. This time however I played it with my little sister watching the whole way through. She likes Final Fantasy in principle, but hasn't really played through any of the games herself, and she's so much younger than me that FFVII OG was well before her time. Still, through cultural osmosis (and two older brothers) she knows some of the story beats, and I'll spoil these out of politeness though I don't think there's really a need.
    I think that Sephiroth killing Aerith and that Cloud has false memories from Zack specifically are well known by anyone with an interest in the genre or just videogames as a whole. Regardless she was more or less familiar with those plot points and some of the imagery and details of them.

    That being said, while she knew that Remake was only part of the FFVII story, everything else was new to her. Pretty early on she decided she wanted to play through the original (with me watching), so I didn't give her any additional context or spoilers as we played other than to say "remember this part of this sequence for when you play later" or "this part is/isn't in the original". Because of her inexperience with the title I was really interested in her opinions on the pacing, as well as her reaction to seeing the end-bosses and the final sequence of the game. Spoilers now for the Remake specifically:
    Overall she enjoyed the game and I think the deeper understanding of why her brothers have so much interest in it. Her opinions were similar to my own regarding the pacing. While she liked all the little character deals, the slowdowns from all the detours and sidequests (such as all of Chapter 14) often sent her to sleep (we tended to play at the end of the day). She was a bit more tolerant of some of the sections that I thought were tedious like the collapsed expressway to sector 7 or the train graveyard, but still found things like Aerith getting kidnapped by Eligor jarring and Leslie's whole arc a bit pointless. Despite never seeing how OG VII handles the Shinra HQ, she still was aware (or at least trope savvy enough) to expect Sephiroth killing President Shinra, but she was completely surprised when he stabbed Barret too. And later, when the Whispers revived him, she was equally perplexed by the whole affair and what she was supposed to be feeling at the time. Finally, she thought the fight against Destiny and especially fighting Sephiroth was a huge tonal miss-match with the story up unto that point.

    I guess I shouldn't be too surprised; we're very alike and I've no doubt influenced her more than I know, but it was still interesting to see her experience with the game and finding a lot of the same complaints I had. We're playing Intergrade now and she's immediately more invested simply because she's in love with Yuffie. After that I'll get the Steam link set up so we can play FFVII OG on the big screen. I'm thinking of downloading some mods, but torn as to whether she should play with original experience or with some updated graphics and the Beacause translation...

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  • KyouguKyougu Registered User regular
    edited January 24


    I think this trailer gives away a lot of the story but man the needle drop at 2:51 almost makes it worth it.

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  • DelzhandDelzhand Hard to miss. Registered User regular
    I couldn't make it through the trailer. I can't tell if this is a loving homage to PS2 era storytelling or actually just bad.

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  • ProhassProhass Registered User regular
    Just tell us about the crystals!

    It looks absolutely terrible. Whether that turns out to be in a gloriously fun way or just regular terrible remains to be seen

    Also my god the aliasing and like pixel jitter in that trailer is atrocious. I mean I guess respect to them if the games graphics actually look like that I guess they’re being honest? But damn, like having an epic vista shot in your trailer prominently feature pixelation and aliased artefacts is pretty ballsy

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  • Stabbity StyleStabbity Style He/Him | Warning: Mothership Reporting Kennewick, WARegistered User regular
    Kyougu wrote: »

    I think this trailer gives away a lot of the story but man the needle drop at 2:51 almost makes it worth it.

    Looks great, gonna wait for reviews, really hope it's good.

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  • H3KnucklesH3Knuckles But we decide which is right and which is an illusion.Registered User regular
    edited January 25
    Prohass wrote: »
    Just tell us about the crystals!

    It looks absolutely terrible. Whether that turns out to be in a gloriously fun way or just regular terrible remains to be seen

    Also my god the aliasing and like pixel jitter in that trailer is atrocious. I mean I guess respect to them if the games graphics actually look like that I guess they’re being honest? But damn, like having an epic vista shot in your trailer prominently feature pixelation and aliased artefacts is pretty ballsy

    Is it possible that's just due to compression of the video file on Twitter's system?

    Man, Kary's (the fiend of fire at 1:36) voice is awful.

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  • rahkeesh2000rahkeesh2000 Registered User regular
    edited January 25
    Yeah it's 90% video compression.

    Whatever value this game has is probably in the combat and spectacle, which isn't that much of a stretch for the Nioh developers. I don't know why they keep trying to show off how awful the story is , unless they aren't self aware. Maybe the Japanese voice acting that barely anyone will experience is sublime in comparison.

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  • ProhassProhass Registered User regular
    It’s possible but I noticed it even with the demo on my series x, so I just don’t think the final game will have the best visuals, which is fine

    And yeah I found pretty much all the voices to be extreme cringe, bizarrely jack is the least embarrassing which is saying something. There’s also some rough dialogue animation, not to do with the dub but in terms of body and head movements while talking

  • KamarKamar Registered User regular
    Every trailer for that game makes me more excited to play it. I was dull on the idea originally because of Nioh's awful story and not enjoying it nearly as much as other Soulslikes, but they've won me over.

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  • manwiththemachinegunmanwiththemachinegun METAL GEAR?! Registered User regular
    I may play origins before elden ring, and I refuse to apologize for it.

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  • CarpyCarpy Registered User regular
    edited January 25
    Prohass wrote: »
    It’s possible but I noticed it even with the demo on my series x, so I just don’t think the final game will have the best visuals, which is fine

    And yeah I found pretty much all the voices to be extreme cringe, bizarrely jack is the least embarrassing which is saying something. There’s also some rough dialogue animation, not to do with the dub but in terms of body and head movements while talking

    The artifacting in the demo didn't bother me but I was grinding my teeth at the really bad visual indicators for aoe stuff like the bomb's fire circle

    That first upstairs hallway, just past the save point, was particularly frustrating for it.

    Carpy on
  • SyphonBlueSyphonBlue Registered User regular
    Kyougu wrote: »

    I think this trailer gives away a lot of the story but man the needle drop at 2:51 almost makes it worth it.

    rock-clapping.gif

    Just incredible

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  • cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Regent Witches 4 HQRegistered User regular
    Wonder how much FF1 content it's gonna have. Boss fight agianst Matoya!? Sure, let's go.

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  • Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    Delzhand wrote: »
    I couldn't make it through the trailer. I can't tell if this is a loving homage to PS2 era storytelling or actually just bad.

    I can't tell if the VA is bad, if the writing is bad, or if that Squareenix needs to finally figure out that a trailer made of random-ass lines with no context is a pretty shitty trailer.

    I have no clue what this game is even remotely about, or even if I think it looks good or bad.

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  • ProhassProhass Registered User regular
    Delzhand wrote: »
    I couldn't make it through the trailer. I can't tell if this is a loving homage to PS2 era storytelling or actually just bad.

    I can't tell if the VA is bad, if the writing is bad, or if that Squareenix needs to finally figure out that a trailer made of random-ass lines with no context is a pretty shitty trailer.

    I have no clue what this game is even remotely about, or even if I think it looks good or bad.

    If only they’d just tell us about the crystals!!!

    rahkeesh2000
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    My impression is that it is basically an FF1 Remake.

  • H3KnucklesH3Knuckles But we decide which is right and which is an illusion.Registered User regular
    edited January 25
    I think it's a prequel. Like, you play as Garland, and you're friends with the Light Warriors, Princess Sara loves you, and you are fighting the Four Fiends. Also having long talks with Astos the Dark Elf and eventually bro-fisting him?

    There's a bunch of talk of memories and whether or not people will remember, so I'm guessing at the end Garland will tragically have to become the villain who kidnaps the princess and summons the Four Fiends from the distant past at the start of FFI (like Blizzard's stupid "there must always be a lich king" thing in World of Warcraft), and everyone else will forget what Garland was really like.

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  • KamarKamar Registered User regular
    edited January 25
    Given Garland's eventual fate in FF1 (alive again in the present), I'm sort of curious what sort of tone and plot points this will end on despite the general gist of it seeming obvious.

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This discussion has been closed.