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The [Labor] Thread is entitled to everything it creates

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  • HefflingHeffling No Pic EverRegistered User regular
    Look at it from the Judge's perspective; Thedacare probably came to him as a healthcare provider on a Friday afternoon and said that, during a pandemic, they needed to retain this staff or people could die (or suffer harm) if they left. Since it's a Friday afternoon and the Judge doesn't have enough time before the weekend to talk to Ascension and isn't a medical care expert, he approves it for the weekend.

    The judge really isn't at fault, Thedacare is. And I hope this is held over their heads during any backroom negotiations with Ascension.

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  • HakkekageHakkekage Space Whore Academy summa cum laudeRegistered User regular
    edited January 25
    Heffling wrote: »
    Look at it from the Judge's perspective; Thedacare probably came to him as a healthcare provider on a Friday afternoon and said that, during a pandemic, they needed to retain this staff or people could die (or suffer harm) if they left. Since it's a Friday afternoon and the Judge doesn't have enough time before the weekend to talk to Ascension and isn't a medical care expert, he approves it for the weekend.

    The judge really isn't at fault, Thedacare is. And I hope this is held over their heads during any backroom negotiations with Ascension.

    Yes plus the thing about how ThedaCare failed to offer counters to the employees for weeks is very damning to whatever the hell their underlying claim is particularly if there is a causation element! Even if ascension did whatever big bad thing ThedaCare is alleging that it did, ThedaCare had plenty of time to avoid or mitigate its own harm and failed to do so. If there isn’t a settlement there will likely be a quick as hell dismissal, but the employee’s part in this story is over

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  • LanzLanz Registered User regular
    Heffling wrote: »
    Look at it from the Judge's perspective; Thedacare probably came to him as a healthcare provider on a Friday afternoon and said that, during a pandemic, they needed to retain this staff or people could die (or suffer harm) if they left. Since it's a Friday afternoon and the Judge doesn't have enough time before the weekend to talk to Ascension and isn't a medical care expert, he approves it for the weekend.

    The judge really isn't at fault, Thedacare is. And I hope this is held over their heads during any backroom negotiations with Ascension.

    I feel like, and maybe this is somewhat unfair but… is it not the job of a judge to do that fucking shit?

    Don’t take a job eating bees if you don’t want to eat bees, and all that. Especially when the bee eating gives you power over people’s literal lives and livelihood.

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  • HakkekageHakkekage Space Whore Academy summa cum laudeRegistered User regular
    Lanz wrote: »
    Heffling wrote: »
    Look at it from the Judge's perspective; Thedacare probably came to him as a healthcare provider on a Friday afternoon and said that, during a pandemic, they needed to retain this staff or people could die (or suffer harm) if they left. Since it's a Friday afternoon and the Judge doesn't have enough time before the weekend to talk to Ascension and isn't a medical care expert, he approves it for the weekend.

    The judge really isn't at fault, Thedacare is. And I hope this is held over their heads during any backroom negotiations with Ascension.

    I feel like, and maybe this is somewhat unfair but… is it not the job of a judge to do that fucking shit?

    Don’t take a job eating bees if you don’t want to eat bees, and all that. Especially when the bee eating gives you power over people’s literal lives and livelihood.

    It literally is the job of a judge to do that fucking shit.

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  • HacksawHacksaw J. Duggan Esq. Wrestler at LawRegistered User regular
    "Don't get had by Friday filings" is tenet my father lived by while he was on the bench for a dang reason.

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  • asurasur Registered User regular
    edited January 25
    Lanz wrote: »
    Heffling wrote: »
    Look at it from the Judge's perspective; Thedacare probably came to him as a healthcare provider on a Friday afternoon and said that, during a pandemic, they needed to retain this staff or people could die (or suffer harm) if they left. Since it's a Friday afternoon and the Judge doesn't have enough time before the weekend to talk to Ascension and isn't a medical care expert, he approves it for the weekend.

    The judge really isn't at fault, Thedacare is. And I hope this is held over their heads during any backroom negotiations with Ascension.

    I feel like, and maybe this is somewhat unfair but… is it not the job of a judge to do that fucking shit?

    Don’t take a job eating bees if you don’t want to eat bees, and all that. Especially when the bee eating gives you power over people’s literal lives and livelihood.

    This isn't my read of the injunction order. It seemed to clearly state that the companies should work out an agreement by Monday or it was going to continue indefinitely screwing over the employees. The judge seems to have reversed that stance so maybe my read is incorrect.

    asur on
  • tinwhiskerstinwhiskers Registered User regular
    https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/21185437/2022cv000068-tro4317792.pdf
    TEMPORARY RESTRAINING ORDER

    Upon the motion of Plaintiff ThedaCare, Inc. (“ThedaCare”), and based upon the filings

    and evidence submitted, in accordance with Wis. Stat. § 813.02,
    IT IS HEREBY ORDERED that ThedaCare’s Motion for Temporary Restraining Order
    is GRANTED.
    IT IS FURTHER ORDERED that Defendant Ascension NE Wisconsin, Inc. shall either:
    1. Make available to ThedaCare one invasive radiology technician and one
    registered nurse of the individuals resigning their employment with ThedaCare to join Ascension
    (Amber Kohler, Andrew Kohler, Samantha Baltus, Timothy Breister, Kailey Young, Michael
    Preissner, and Paul Winter), with their support to include on-call responsibilities, or;

    2. Cease the hiring of the individuals referenced in (1), above, until ThedaCare has
    hired adequate staff to replace the departing IRC team members.
    IT IS FURTHER ORDERED that a violation of this Order by the Defendant is
    immediately punishable by contempt of Court. This Temporary Restraining Order shall remain
    in effect unless and until terminated by subsequent order of this Court.

    Part 1) Requiring Ascension to provided a nurse and tech, I could see being a reasonable thing, though naming those specific people is odd. But I have 0 idea what goes on around staffing hospitals so maybe for some rules reason Ascension couldn't send some other people.


    Part 2) Is the insane part, because Ascension not hiring them doesn't actually prevent the harm ThedaCare is claiming. They've tender their resignation effective the day this was filled.

    They don't work there anymore. The only way this fixes the issue is with the assumption they will immediately go back to working for ThedaCare.

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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Hakkekage wrote: »
    Heffling wrote: »
    Look at it from the Judge's perspective; Thedacare probably came to him as a healthcare provider on a Friday afternoon and said that, during a pandemic, they needed to retain this staff or people could die (or suffer harm) if they left. Since it's a Friday afternoon and the Judge doesn't have enough time before the weekend to talk to Ascension and isn't a medical care expert, he approves it for the weekend.

    The judge really isn't at fault, Thedacare is. And I hope this is held over their heads during any backroom negotiations with Ascension.

    Yes plus the thing about how ThedaCare failed to offer counters to the employees for weeks is very damning to whatever the hell their underlying claim is particularly if there is a causation element! Even if ascension did whatever big bad thing ThedaCare is alleging that it did, ThedaCare had plenty of time to avoid or mitigate its own harm and failed to do so. If there isn’t a settlement there will likely be a quick as hell dismissal, but the employee’s part in this story is over

    Except it isn't, because this was about more than just the seven employees who had their lives disrupted and their future employment thrown in jeopardy. This was about ThedaCare throwing down a marker for their employees, telling them that they would abuse the legal system to retain them rather than actually try to compete for them - which leads to a chilling effect on those employees should they try to seek other employment, as those employers now have the question of "will ThedaCare pursue legal action against us if we hire this individual?" If these workers are so critical that they can't be allowed to move freely, then they shouldn't be at-will employees, but under contract to protect both sides.

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  • MegaMan001MegaMan001 CRNA Rochester, MNRegistered User regular
    edited January 25
    At the end of the day an employer successfully prevented their employees from leaving their non contracted position in an "at will" work state. That's the game. I don't care for how long they were prevented from doing so. It happened.

    This sends a major message to the rest of Thedacare employees of don't try to leave and future likely employers for staying away from Thedacare staff.

    That's fucked up!

    I don't know how much to go into some of the niche stuff around hospital employment, but there's a ton of money to be made out there if you're willing to move to more undesirable locations. If this sends the message that your hospital can prevent you from doing that it's going to flatten wages all over the country.

    It also really troubles me that the wording of the injunction that Ascension is to provide one RN and technician to Thedacare. Where do those people come from? Who pays them? How much? What are the hours? Overtime? You can't just trade people like baseball cards.

    MegaMan001 on
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  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    MegaMan001 wrote: »
    At the end of the day an employer successfully prevented their employees from leaving their non contracted position in an "at will" work state. That's the game. I don't care for how long they were prevented from doing so. It happened.

    This sends a major message to the rest of Thedacare employees of don't try to leave and future likely employers for staying away from Thedacare staff.

    That's fucked up!

    I don't know how much to go into some of the niche stuff around hospital employment, but there's a ton of money to be made out there if you're willing to move to more undesirable locations. If this sends the message that your hospital can prevent you from doing that it's going to flatten wages all over the country.

    It also really troubles me that the wording of the injunction that Ascension is to provide one RN and technician to Thedacare. Where do those people come from? Who pays them? How much? What are the hours? Overtime? You can't just trade people like baseball cards.

    Technically they prevented the employees from starting at Ascension. Which means the next time will probably be even more messed up as Thedacare will need to get a court order to force the leaving employees to tell them where they're off to so that they can get an injunction against that company.

    Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
  • HakkekageHakkekage Space Whore Academy summa cum laudeRegistered User regular
    Hakkekage wrote: »
    Heffling wrote: »
    Look at it from the Judge's perspective; Thedacare probably came to him as a healthcare provider on a Friday afternoon and said that, during a pandemic, they needed to retain this staff or people could die (or suffer harm) if they left. Since it's a Friday afternoon and the Judge doesn't have enough time before the weekend to talk to Ascension and isn't a medical care expert, he approves it for the weekend.

    The judge really isn't at fault, Thedacare is. And I hope this is held over their heads during any backroom negotiations with Ascension.

    Yes plus the thing about how ThedaCare failed to offer counters to the employees for weeks is very damning to whatever the hell their underlying claim is particularly if there is a causation element! Even if ascension did whatever big bad thing ThedaCare is alleging that it did, ThedaCare had plenty of time to avoid or mitigate its own harm and failed to do so. If there isn’t a settlement there will likely be a quick as hell dismissal, but the employee’s part in this story is over

    Except it isn't, because this was about more than just the seven employees who had their lives disrupted and their future employment thrown in jeopardy. This was about ThedaCare throwing down a marker for their employees, telling them that they would abuse the legal system to retain them rather than actually try to compete for them - which leads to a chilling effect on those employees should they try to seek other employment, as those employers now have the question of "will ThedaCare pursue legal action against us if we hire this individual?" If these workers are so critical that they can't be allowed to move freely, then they shouldn't be at-will employees, but under contract to protect both sides.

    Ok I'm going to try not to snap at you

    There are particularized circumstances here that are unlikely to repeat in the future

    1) health care industry, pandemic surge, 24 hour trauma center, high stakes for uncertainty

    2) illiquid labor market (particularized skills, low number of available and skilled technicians in the relevant geographical market)

    3) entire team transitioning out on short notice, ThedaCare exercising its right not to counter, but stupidly (on them) discovering that replacement technicians are not easy to recruit in the open market because it is illiquid, and especially not 7-11 positions all at once

    4) ThedaCare, also short sighted, failing to implement 2 weeks notice / transition out employee departure policies to prevent being caught in an emergency without any coverage when they are the only 24 hour trauma center in the area

    Bad facts make bad law, but the idea that this particular witch's brew is going to happen between ThedaCare and some other hospital in the future is unlikely, and has very limited implications either for the future of this particular health system's labor mobility or the future of the power imbalance baked in to at-will employment regimes generally

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  • ThawmusThawmus +Jackface Registered User regular
    Hakkekage wrote: »
    Hakkekage wrote: »
    Heffling wrote: »
    Look at it from the Judge's perspective; Thedacare probably came to him as a healthcare provider on a Friday afternoon and said that, during a pandemic, they needed to retain this staff or people could die (or suffer harm) if they left. Since it's a Friday afternoon and the Judge doesn't have enough time before the weekend to talk to Ascension and isn't a medical care expert, he approves it for the weekend.

    The judge really isn't at fault, Thedacare is. And I hope this is held over their heads during any backroom negotiations with Ascension.

    Yes plus the thing about how ThedaCare failed to offer counters to the employees for weeks is very damning to whatever the hell their underlying claim is particularly if there is a causation element! Even if ascension did whatever big bad thing ThedaCare is alleging that it did, ThedaCare had plenty of time to avoid or mitigate its own harm and failed to do so. If there isn’t a settlement there will likely be a quick as hell dismissal, but the employee’s part in this story is over

    Except it isn't, because this was about more than just the seven employees who had their lives disrupted and their future employment thrown in jeopardy. This was about ThedaCare throwing down a marker for their employees, telling them that they would abuse the legal system to retain them rather than actually try to compete for them - which leads to a chilling effect on those employees should they try to seek other employment, as those employers now have the question of "will ThedaCare pursue legal action against us if we hire this individual?" If these workers are so critical that they can't be allowed to move freely, then they shouldn't be at-will employees, but under contract to protect both sides.

    Ok I'm going to try not to snap at you

    There are particularized circumstances here that are unlikely to repeat in the future

    1) health care industry, pandemic surge, 24 hour trauma center, high stakes for uncertainty

    2) illiquid labor market (particularized skills, low number of available and skilled technicians in the relevant geographical market)

    3) entire team transitioning out on short notice, ThedaCare exercising its right not to counter, but stupidly (on them) discovering that replacement technicians are not easy to recruit in the open market because it is illiquid, and especially not 7-11 positions all at once

    4) ThedaCare, also short sighted, failing to implement 2 weeks notice / transition out employee departure policies to prevent being caught in an emergency without any coverage when they are the only 24 hour trauma center in the area

    Bad facts make bad law, but the idea that this particular witch's brew is going to happen between ThedaCare and some other hospital in the future is unlikely, and has very limited implications either for the future of this particular health system's labor mobility or the future of the power imbalance baked in to at-will employment regimes generally

    While I believe all of the above, I really don't expect HR depts to navigate all of this and understand the nuance inherent to this situation. They're going to tell each other not to hire people from ThedaCare because that's the comfy safe solution that doesn't require a deep analysis of the situation, much less risk a misread.

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  • NobeardNobeard North Carolina: Failed StateRegistered User regular
    edited January 25
    Heffling wrote: »
    Look at it from the Judge's perspective; Thedacare probably came to him as a healthcare provider on a Friday afternoon and said that, during a pandemic, they needed to retain this staff or people could die (or suffer harm) if they left. Since it's a Friday afternoon and the Judge doesn't have enough time before the weekend to talk to Ascension and isn't a medical care expert, he approves it for the weekend.

    The judge really isn't at fault, Thedacare is. And I hope this is held over their heads during any backroom negotiations with Ascension.

    If this is accurate then it’s very shitty. People’s lives just don't take a break over the weekend. Sucks for the judge but he should have investigated more before deciding anything.

    Then vent his frustrations at the weasels at Thedacare that tried to pull this stunt.

    Edit so as not to double post:
    Hakkekage wrote: »
    Hakkekage wrote: »
    Heffling wrote: »
    Look at it from the Judge's perspective; Thedacare probably came to him as a healthcare provider on a Friday afternoon and said that, during a pandemic, they needed to retain this staff or people could die (or suffer harm) if they left. Since it's a Friday afternoon and the Judge doesn't have enough time before the weekend to talk to Ascension and isn't a medical care expert, he approves it for the weekend.

    The judge really isn't at fault, Thedacare is. And I hope this is held over their heads during any backroom negotiations with Ascension.

    Yes plus the thing about how ThedaCare failed to offer counters to the employees for weeks is very damning to whatever the hell their underlying claim is particularly if there is a causation element! Even if ascension did whatever big bad thing ThedaCare is alleging that it did, ThedaCare had plenty of time to avoid or mitigate its own harm and failed to do so. If there isn’t a settlement there will likely be a quick as hell dismissal, but the employee’s part in this story is over

    Except it isn't, because this was about more than just the seven employees who had their lives disrupted and their future employment thrown in jeopardy. This was about ThedaCare throwing down a marker for their employees, telling them that they would abuse the legal system to retain them rather than actually try to compete for them - which leads to a chilling effect on those employees should they try to seek other employment, as those employers now have the question of "will ThedaCare pursue legal action against us if we hire this individual?" If these workers are so critical that they can't be allowed to move freely, then they shouldn't be at-will employees, but under contract to protect both sides.

    Ok I'm going to try not to snap at you

    There are particularized circumstances here that are unlikely to repeat in the future

    1) health care industry, pandemic surge, 24 hour trauma center, high stakes for uncertainty

    2) illiquid labor market (particularized skills, low number of available and skilled technicians in the relevant geographical market)

    3) entire team transitioning out on short notice, ThedaCare exercising its right not to counter, but stupidly (on them) discovering that replacement technicians are not easy to recruit in the open market because it is illiquid, and especially not 7-11 positions all at once

    4) ThedaCare, also short sighted, failing to implement 2 weeks notice / transition out employee departure policies to prevent being caught in an emergency without any coverage when they are the only 24 hour trauma center in the area

    Bad facts make bad law, but the idea that this particular witch's brew is going to happen between ThedaCare and some other hospital in the future is unlikely, and has very limited implications either for the future of this particular health system's labor mobility or the future of the power imbalance baked in to at-will employment regimes generally

    This assumes good faith and rationality on all participants. I can absolutely see this situation being used to fuck over workers. Like I can see some beady eyed bastard try to argue that his tire mechanics can’t switch jobs because they are essential or something.

    Nobeard on
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  • Dark_SideDark_Side Registered User regular
    edited January 25
    It almost of looks like Thedacare strategically put forth the injunction request on a Friday afternoon because odds were super high it would get granted over the weekend.

    Dark_Side on
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  • MegaMan001MegaMan001 CRNA Rochester, MNRegistered User regular
    Hakkekage wrote: »
    Hakkekage wrote: »
    Heffling wrote: »
    Look at it from the Judge's perspective; Thedacare probably came to him as a healthcare provider on a Friday afternoon and said that, during a pandemic, they needed to retain this staff or people could die (or suffer harm) if they left. Since it's a Friday afternoon and the Judge doesn't have enough time before the weekend to talk to Ascension and isn't a medical care expert, he approves it for the weekend.

    The judge really isn't at fault, Thedacare is. And I hope this is held over their heads during any backroom negotiations with Ascension.

    Yes plus the thing about how ThedaCare failed to offer counters to the employees for weeks is very damning to whatever the hell their underlying claim is particularly if there is a causation element! Even if ascension did whatever big bad thing ThedaCare is alleging that it did, ThedaCare had plenty of time to avoid or mitigate its own harm and failed to do so. If there isn’t a settlement there will likely be a quick as hell dismissal, but the employee’s part in this story is over

    Except it isn't, because this was about more than just the seven employees who had their lives disrupted and their future employment thrown in jeopardy. This was about ThedaCare throwing down a marker for their employees, telling them that they would abuse the legal system to retain them rather than actually try to compete for them - which leads to a chilling effect on those employees should they try to seek other employment, as those employers now have the question of "will ThedaCare pursue legal action against us if we hire this individual?" If these workers are so critical that they can't be allowed to move freely, then they shouldn't be at-will employees, but under contract to protect both sides.

    Ok I'm going to try not to snap at you

    There are particularized circumstances here that are unlikely to repeat in the future

    1) health care industry, pandemic surge, 24 hour trauma center, high stakes for uncertainty

    2) illiquid labor market (particularized skills, low number of available and skilled technicians in the relevant geographical market)

    3) entire team transitioning out on short notice, ThedaCare exercising its right not to counter, but stupidly (on them) discovering that replacement technicians are not easy to recruit in the open market because it is illiquid, and especially not 7-11 positions all at once

    4) ThedaCare, also short sighted, failing to implement 2 weeks notice / transition out employee departure policies to prevent being caught in an emergency without any coverage when they are the only 24 hour trauma center in the area

    Bad facts make bad law, but the idea that this particular witch's brew is going to happen between ThedaCare and some other hospital in the future is unlikely, and has very limited implications either for the future of this particular health system's labor mobility or the future of the power imbalance baked in to at-will employment regimes generally

    I say this as someone who's entire adult career has been in medicine. As a nurse aide, a registered nurse, and now a nurse anesthetist.

    I completely disagree with your assessment that this is likely a one time thing.

    Your points of 1, 2, and 4 have been in place for two years and show no sign of stopping. 3 has happened twice in my hospital in the last two years (a group of eight sonographers left at once for more money elsewhere and more than half of our perfusionists did the same).

    Mass leavings, particularly among younger staff who've got no issue travelling for jobs, is becoming more and more common.

    I think you've greatly minimized how big of a deal this was.

    I am in the business of saving lives.
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  • HakkekageHakkekage Space Whore Academy summa cum laudeRegistered User regular
    MegaMan001 wrote: »
    Hakkekage wrote: »
    Hakkekage wrote: »
    Heffling wrote: »
    Look at it from the Judge's perspective; Thedacare probably came to him as a healthcare provider on a Friday afternoon and said that, during a pandemic, they needed to retain this staff or people could die (or suffer harm) if they left. Since it's a Friday afternoon and the Judge doesn't have enough time before the weekend to talk to Ascension and isn't a medical care expert, he approves it for the weekend.

    The judge really isn't at fault, Thedacare is. And I hope this is held over their heads during any backroom negotiations with Ascension.

    Yes plus the thing about how ThedaCare failed to offer counters to the employees for weeks is very damning to whatever the hell their underlying claim is particularly if there is a causation element! Even if ascension did whatever big bad thing ThedaCare is alleging that it did, ThedaCare had plenty of time to avoid or mitigate its own harm and failed to do so. If there isn’t a settlement there will likely be a quick as hell dismissal, but the employee’s part in this story is over

    Except it isn't, because this was about more than just the seven employees who had their lives disrupted and their future employment thrown in jeopardy. This was about ThedaCare throwing down a marker for their employees, telling them that they would abuse the legal system to retain them rather than actually try to compete for them - which leads to a chilling effect on those employees should they try to seek other employment, as those employers now have the question of "will ThedaCare pursue legal action against us if we hire this individual?" If these workers are so critical that they can't be allowed to move freely, then they shouldn't be at-will employees, but under contract to protect both sides.

    Ok I'm going to try not to snap at you

    There are particularized circumstances here that are unlikely to repeat in the future

    1) health care industry, pandemic surge, 24 hour trauma center, high stakes for uncertainty

    2) illiquid labor market (particularized skills, low number of available and skilled technicians in the relevant geographical market)

    3) entire team transitioning out on short notice, ThedaCare exercising its right not to counter, but stupidly (on them) discovering that replacement technicians are not easy to recruit in the open market because it is illiquid, and especially not 7-11 positions all at once

    4) ThedaCare, also short sighted, failing to implement 2 weeks notice / transition out employee departure policies to prevent being caught in an emergency without any coverage when they are the only 24 hour trauma center in the area

    Bad facts make bad law, but the idea that this particular witch's brew is going to happen between ThedaCare and some other hospital in the future is unlikely, and has very limited implications either for the future of this particular health system's labor mobility or the future of the power imbalance baked in to at-will employment regimes generally

    I say this as someone who's entire adult career has been in medicine. As a nurse aide, a registered nurse, and now a nurse anesthetist.

    I completely disagree with your assessment that this is likely a one time thing.

    Your points of 1, 2, and 4 have been in place for two years and show no sign of stopping. 3 has happened twice in my hospital in the last two years (a group of eight sonographers left at once for more money elsewhere and more than half of our perfusionists did the same).

    Mass leavings, particularly among younger staff who've got no issue travelling for jobs, is becoming more and more common.

    I think you've greatly minimized how big of a deal this was.

    and did the hospital sue the other places they took jobs at? No. Probably because the underlying claim--whatever the hell it is, it is very hard to say when literally no one has linked the complaint--is based on a theory that is near impossible to prove (i.e. intentional interference with their employment contracts, I literally cannot imagine what other theory ThedaCare alleged here) unless the stars here align in the way that they have in this case. The reason why 1, 2, and 4 have seen no prophylactic contractual protection by employers and health care employees is more likely to be that this particular scenario has not escalated to this point in the past. I understand that this is a seismic occurrence in the health care field, but there is very little that this case has to say about at-will employment law, other than that employment is still by and large a creature of contract, and the failure to anticipate a staffing exodus in a pandemic surge is a failure of contract.

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  • Blackhawk1313Blackhawk1313 Registered User regular
    Counter to this entire notion of facts and limited application: companies that care about employees are unicorns and HR departments exist to protect the company, not the worker. No matter how much sense or logic it might make on the points listed, companies will only look at how they can use this to screw over employees. And if you actually think otherwise… I don’t know what else to say.

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  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    Dark_Side wrote: »
    It almost of looks like Thedacare strategically put forth the injunction request on a Friday afternoon because odds were super high it would get granted over the weekend.

    This is like 99.99% likely, totally shitty and not the only place this is exploited in our legal system.

    Protip: It sucks to get arrested at 5:05 pm on a Friday before a Holiday weekend. I'm sure that no DA/cop anywhere ever intentionally arrested somebody on such a day intentionally.

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  • HakkekageHakkekage Space Whore Academy summa cum laudeRegistered User regular
    Counter to this entire notion of facts and limited application: companies that care about employees are unicorns and HR departments exist to protect the company, not the worker. No matter how much sense or logic it might make on the points listed, companies will only look at how they can use this to screw over employees. And if you actually think otherwise… I don’t know what else to say.

    Ok. That's true. It's also irrelevant. This entire drama was about whether or not the court, and courts in the future, viewed this as an unprecedented deterioration in the "two way" at-will street, and would use this to screw over employees. I am arguing, it did not (no, a brief TRO is not a binding or persuasive alteration in the fabric of employment law), and it will not.

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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    So, in "this is my shocked face" news, the NFL is demanding free labor from dancers at the Super Bowl:
    Dancers across the industry are calling out the Super Bowl Halftime Show over alleged requests for dancers to put in 72 working hours as unpaid volunteers, to be involved with this year’s show.

    An email, shared by dancer and activist Taja Riley, suggests that dancers were being asked to “volunteer for free” as field performers at the upcoming Feb. 13 performance at SoFi Stadium. The Instagram post from Riley includes alleged screenshots of requests from a Super Bowl coordinator to professional dancers, via dance agency Bloc LA, as well as a text from another dancer involved looking for “predominantly African American movers” who would be doing “very little dance.” Other notable names like Alyson Stoner and Heather Morris have spoke out about the alleged emails.

    Given that they didn't boot owner and part time pimp Dan Snyder, this is unsurprising.

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  • HappylilElfHappylilElf Registered User regular
    Not really surprising considering they floated the idea of charging musicians for the "privilege" of being mocked performing for the halftime show.

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  • TryCatcherTryCatcher Registered User regular
    Journalist Jason Schreier with the news that of course that voluntary recognition is not happening for Raven, union vote it is:
    Activision last night said it would not recognize the QA union at Raven Software, setting the stage for an ugly labor battle. Activision will argue that all 300+ Raven employees should vote, not the group of 34 QA testers who are seeking a union.

    This dance is completely unexpected. What is not is them trying to break the QA team in other teams within the company to stop the union. VICE reports:
    Last Friday, the quality assurance (QA) workers at Raven Software, a subsidiary of Call of Duty publisher and scandal magnet Activision Blizzard, announced plans to form a union, partially in response to the company’s poor treatment of a department responsible for finding bugs in the company’s biggest games. Only days later, Polygon reporter Nicole Carpenter revealed leaders at Raven had rolled out plans to redistribute QA employees, moving them from a separate team and instead embedding them within other departments within Raven.

    Activision Blizzard, who Microsoft has proposed purchasing for $68.7 billion, did not respond to an immediate request for comment. But in a statement to Polygon, the company said this move was “the next step in a process that has been carefully considered and in the works for some time” and meant to “make the opportunities for our talented QA staff even stronger.”

    The decision to form a union and changes to Raven’s QA department came after weeks of striking by some Raven employees, a radical move in the mostly ununionized games industry.

    “When Management uses meaningless buzzwords like ‘alignment, ‘synergy,’ and ‘reorganization,’” said Communication Workers of America (CWA) organizing director Tom Smith in a press release, “they are sending a message to workers: ‘we make all the decisions, we have all the power.’ Workers organize to have a voice at work to rectify these power imbalances.”

    It was always going to come down to an union vote. So the gamble is that the rest of the company doesn't respect QA enough to vote in favor of the union.

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  • Dark_SideDark_Side Registered User regular
    TryCatcher wrote: »
    Journalist Jason Schreier with the news that of course that voluntary recognition is not happening for Raven, union vote it is:
    Activision last night said it would not recognize the QA union at Raven Software, setting the stage for an ugly labor battle. Activision will argue that all 300+ Raven employees should vote, not the group of 34 QA testers who are seeking a union.

    This dance is completely unexpected. What is not is them trying to break the QA team in other teams within the company to stop the union. VICE reports:
    Last Friday, the quality assurance (QA) workers at Raven Software, a subsidiary of Call of Duty publisher and scandal magnet Activision Blizzard, announced plans to form a union, partially in response to the company’s poor treatment of a department responsible for finding bugs in the company’s biggest games. Only days later, Polygon reporter Nicole Carpenter revealed leaders at Raven had rolled out plans to redistribute QA employees, moving them from a separate team and instead embedding them within other departments within Raven.

    Activision Blizzard, who Microsoft has proposed purchasing for $68.7 billion, did not respond to an immediate request for comment. But in a statement to Polygon, the company said this move was “the next step in a process that has been carefully considered and in the works for some time” and meant to “make the opportunities for our talented QA staff even stronger.”

    The decision to form a union and changes to Raven’s QA department came after weeks of striking by some Raven employees, a radical move in the mostly ununionized games industry.

    “When Management uses meaningless buzzwords like ‘alignment, ‘synergy,’ and ‘reorganization,’” said Communication Workers of America (CWA) organizing director Tom Smith in a press release, “they are sending a message to workers: ‘we make all the decisions, we have all the power.’ Workers organize to have a voice at work to rectify these power imbalances.”

    It was always going to come down to an union vote. So the gamble is that the rest of the company doesn't respect QA enough to vote in favor of the union.

    Sadly I think it's a pretty safe gamble because Activision Blizzard is going to put the full court press on to other employees saying this will threaten their jobs, if not just outright buy them off with benefits.

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  • MatevMatev Cero Miedo Registered User regular
    ABK will absolutely play on coder’s crab bucket mentality to spike this vote.

    “Won’t get anything extra from us cause you’ve already got a contact, why should they??” Etc.

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  • HacksawHacksaw J. Duggan Esq. Wrestler at LawRegistered User regular
    If I'm reading this right, the QA workers signed cards before ABK split them up into disparate teams, meaning they might be able to file a complaint with the NLRB that their employer has committed an anti-labor action against them. If the NLRB agrees, Raven will have to shuffle them back into their original arrangement and the election will be held by the specific unit which signed cards initially.

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  • TicaldfjamTicaldfjam Snoqualmie, WARegistered User regular
    Mayabird wrote: »

    Unfortunately,... "Commanding Officer Descretion" is going to fuck the Guard over.

    Because we all know some asshole XO is gonna get their jollies on trying to court-martial Guardsmen trying to unionize under "their command."

    *especially when the next GOP President gets involved.*

  • HefflingHeffling No Pic EverRegistered User regular
    TryCatcher wrote: »
    Journalist Jason Schreier with the news that of course that voluntary recognition is not happening for Raven, union vote it is:
    Activision last night said it would not recognize the QA union at Raven Software, setting the stage for an ugly labor battle. Activision will argue that all 300+ Raven employees should vote, not the group of 34 QA testers who are seeking a union.

    This dance is completely unexpected. What is not is them trying to break the QA team in other teams within the company to stop the union. VICE reports:
    Last Friday, the quality assurance (QA) workers at Raven Software, a subsidiary of Call of Duty publisher and scandal magnet Activision Blizzard, announced plans to form a union, partially in response to the company’s poor treatment of a department responsible for finding bugs in the company’s biggest games. Only days later, Polygon reporter Nicole Carpenter revealed leaders at Raven had rolled out plans to redistribute QA employees, moving them from a separate team and instead embedding them within other departments within Raven.

    Activision Blizzard, who Microsoft has proposed purchasing for $68.7 billion, did not respond to an immediate request for comment. But in a statement to Polygon, the company said this move was “the next step in a process that has been carefully considered and in the works for some time” and meant to “make the opportunities for our talented QA staff even stronger.”

    The decision to form a union and changes to Raven’s QA department came after weeks of striking by some Raven employees, a radical move in the mostly ununionized games industry.

    “When Management uses meaningless buzzwords like ‘alignment, ‘synergy,’ and ‘reorganization,’” said Communication Workers of America (CWA) organizing director Tom Smith in a press release, “they are sending a message to workers: ‘we make all the decisions, we have all the power.’ Workers organize to have a voice at work to rectify these power imbalances.”

    It was always going to come down to an union vote. So the gamble is that the rest of the company doesn't respect QA enough to vote in favor of the union.

    I really really hope that all 300 employees show up tomorrow, decide to unionize, and use AB's very public stance as recognition of the union legally.

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  • TraceTrace GNU Terry Pratchett; GNU Gus; GNU Carrie Fisher; GNU Adam We Registered User regular
    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/bnsf-unions-cant-strike-attendance-policy-judge-rules-rcna13548

    Shitty Trump appointed judge blocks unionized workers from striking at BNSF.
    U.S. District Judge Mark T. Pittman of the Northern Texas District ruled in favor of BNSF Railway, which said in court papers that a strike would deprive shippers of transportation, hurt revenue, threaten the safety of the general public, force other employees out of work and cause immediate and substantial schedule disruptions.

    BNSF had asked the federal court to block thousands of union members who help transport agricultural and industrial goods nationwide from striking, arguing that the two unions representing 17,000 workers would be in breach of their obligations because the nature of the dispute was “minor” and it didn’t rise to a level that would justify a work stoppage.

  • ShadowfireShadowfire Vermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered User regular
    "Hey so uh.. we're all really sick. Sorrynotsorry."

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  • TraceTrace GNU Terry Pratchett; GNU Gus; GNU Carrie Fisher; GNU Adam We Registered User regular
    Shadowfire wrote: »
    "Hey so uh.. we're all really sick. Sorrynotsorry."

    https://www.star-telegram.com/news/business/article257699918.html
    The United States Court for the Northern District of Texas ruled that unionized BNSF workers are temporarily restrained and enjoined from “authorizing, encouraging, permitting, calling, or otherwise engaging in any strikes, work stoppages, picketing, slowdowns, sickouts, or other self-help” against BNSF Railway over the new attendance policy.

    Looks like they might actually get in like, legal trouble if they even try.

  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    edited January 27
    The dispute is about the company unilaterally imposing a new "points system" that will penalize workers for taking days off, despite the workers having seven guaranteed days off a month through the union - important when they otherwise do not have set days off and are on 24-hour call.

    DarkPrimus on
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  • ShadowfireShadowfire Vermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    The dispute is about the company unilaterally imposing a new "points system" that will penalize workers for taking days off, despite the workers having seven guaranteed days off a month through the union - important when they otherwise do not have set days off and are on 24-hour call.

    Also about them trying to move to a one man on system instead of two, and encouraging/demanding all sorts of unsafe practices.

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  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    Shadowfire wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    The dispute is about the company unilaterally imposing a new "points system" that will penalize workers for taking days off, despite the workers having seven guaranteed days off a month through the union - important when they otherwise do not have set days off and are on 24-hour call.

    Also about them trying to move to a one man on system instead of two, and encouraging/demanding all sorts of unsafe practices.

    Ah, I didn't see that gem mentioned in the article. Doesn't seem a "minor" change to me!

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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    Shadowfire wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    The dispute is about the company unilaterally imposing a new "points system" that will penalize workers for taking days off, despite the workers having seven guaranteed days off a month through the union - important when they otherwise do not have set days off and are on 24-hour call.

    Also about them trying to move to a one man on system instead of two, and encouraging/demanding all sorts of unsafe practices.

    In the youtube thread they just posted a bunch of videos about the disaster that apparently instigated the change to a two man system

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  • SmrtnikSmrtnik job boli zub Registered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Shadowfire wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    The dispute is about the company unilaterally imposing a new "points system" that will penalize workers for taking days off, despite the workers having seven guaranteed days off a month through the union - important when they otherwise do not have set days off and are on 24-hour call.

    Also about them trying to move to a one man on system instead of two, and encouraging/demanding all sorts of unsafe practices.

    In the youtube thread they just posted a bunch of videos about the disaster that apparently instigated the change to a two man system

    Is it the British troop train?

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  • MegaMan001MegaMan001 CRNA Rochester, MNRegistered User regular
    Well if they can't legally disrupt work to force negotiations then they should just quit en masse. See how many thousands of dollars a day they lose

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  • MillMill Registered User regular
    Union members should strike anyways and tell the judge to get fucked.

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  • Dark_SideDark_Side Registered User regular
    edited January 27
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Shadowfire wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    The dispute is about the company unilaterally imposing a new "points system" that will penalize workers for taking days off, despite the workers having seven guaranteed days off a month through the union - important when they otherwise do not have set days off and are on 24-hour call.

    Also about them trying to move to a one man on system instead of two, and encouraging/demanding all sorts of unsafe practices.

    In the youtube thread they just posted a bunch of videos about the disaster that apparently instigated the change to a two man system

    I see this all time out in the field work world. Two man teams are always better and less prone to miss things, make errors, or have serious accidents. And one of the first cost saving measures companies always try to pull is going to one man teams.

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  • OghulkOghulk Registered User regular
    Trace wrote: »
    Shadowfire wrote: »
    "Hey so uh.. we're all really sick. Sorrynotsorry."

    https://www.star-telegram.com/news/business/article257699918.html
    The United States Court for the Northern District of Texas ruled that unionized BNSF workers are temporarily restrained and enjoined from “authorizing, encouraging, permitting, calling, or otherwise engaging in any strikes, work stoppages, picketing, slowdowns, sickouts, or other self-help” against BNSF Railway over the new attendance policy.

    Looks like they might actually get in like, legal trouble if they even try.

    "You will work and you will like it"

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