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Jim Ross will really spend 20 minutes on his podcast ranting about how long people set up to catch a dive but then praise Bret Hart for running chest first into the turnbuckles real good.
My maybe hot take is that wrestling will never appeal to “the normies”
If you’re not gonna accept the dude whose lazy you’re not gonna accept the guy who dresses up in face paint and a mask and you’re not gonna accept the serious wresler people past that cause isn’t this all fake
The hill is not comedy or supernatural characters. The hill is wrestling as an art form.
The problem with that hot take is the huge boom periods with Hogan or the WCW vs WWF war happened.
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The Attitude Era is in all honesty possibly the best product of the perfect storm that was the 90s crash tv phenomenon.
But wrestling was also in a boom when my father was a kid and went to see Bruno headline Madison Square Garden once a month. Drive in movie theaters and boardwalk carnivals were also popular then. Things I as a shitty Attitude Era teen thought were super lame.
Entertainment tastes change through the years, but what's changed even more rapidly is the way people consume entertainment. Wrestling at its core is a theatrical LARP. And anyone who's been involved with theatre or LARP knows the kind of attention they require. With the most popular things these days being easily boiled down to gifs and memes and youtube clips, I'd be willing to bet a beer that the focus and investment a full weekly mainstream wrestling show requires just doesn't appeal to 'the normies' with limited time and energy to spare. Yet at the same time a clip of Orange Cassidy's sloth style or Naomi's "Feel The Glow" entrance will go viral just long enough to make it seem possible.
Also reality tv has had a big impact (which is hilarious because wrestling could be considered the og reality tv) but that's another conversation.
As basic as it is its really nice to see a sense of normalcy with the BOSJ press conference. Goddamn there are alot of champions in the tournament, you love to see it.
"good" moment where the lady who set up the titles and pulls out the chairs tripped and a bunch of B block got up to help her and Phantasmo was next to come out and mocked her and just looked like the biggest piece of shit.
Also I dont have a link but you can tell Yuta is jet lagged as fucked looked very glassy eyed.
EDIT: A Block went non traditional with their looks aside from Taguchi and Ishimori
The Attitude Era is in all honesty possibly the best product of the perfect storm that was the 90s crash tv phenomenon.
But wrestling was also in a boom when my father was a kid and went to see Bruno headline Madison Square Garden once a month. Drive in movie theaters and boardwalk carnivals were also popular then. Things I as a shitty Attitude Era teen thought were super lame.
Entertainment tastes change through the years, but what's changed even more rapidly is the way people consume entertainment. Wrestling at its core is a theatrical LARP. And anyone who's been involved with theatre or LARP knows the kind of attention they require. With the most popular things these days being easily boiled down to gifs and memes and youtube clips, I'd be willing to bet a beer that the focus and investment a full weekly mainstream wrestling show requires just doesn't appeal to 'the normies' with limited time and energy to spare. Yet at the same time a clip of Orange Cassidy's sloth style or Naomi's "Feel The Glow" entrance will go viral just long enough to make it seem possible.
Also reality tv has had a big impact (which is hilarious because wrestling could be considered the og reality tv) but that's another conversation.
Anyway, that's my hot take.
If you take some to a live show or have them over for a PPV party they'll get invested in the product, but following a company weekly for at least 3 hours of content is a big ask.
Really unfortunate news is... yeah no he sucks my guy
His wife was at Jan 6, his podcast has promoted some real harmful shit, his band played in some real dicey moments during the pandemic, this sadly isn't much of a surprise
It's unfortunate he can be such a fun entertainer but, y'know, that's wrestling
If you take some to a live show or have them over for a PPV party they'll get invested in the product, but following a company weekly for at least 3 hours of content is a big ask.
Well, Attitude Era did have Raw + Heat + PPVs or Raw + Smackdown + PPVs . Let us also never forget Nitro + THUNDER lol.
It absolutely is a big ask, though, and the method of media consumption / huge increase in options is usually the answer as to why ratings for everything have basically cratered. The ratings wrestling enjoys nowadays, be it WWE or AEW, are laughably low compared to the eras of the past....and that's just the way it is nowadays. Unless something seismic happens to how we consume media, that's just the new norm.
Both companies will still try and expand their reach into as many normies as possible, though.
Bizazedo on
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The Attitude Era is in all honesty possibly the best product of the perfect storm that was the 90s crash tv phenomenon.
But wrestling was also in a boom when my father was a kid and went to see Bruno headline Madison Square Garden once a month. Drive in movie theaters and boardwalk carnivals were also popular then. Things I as a shitty Attitude Era teen thought were super lame.
Entertainment tastes change through the years, but what's changed even more rapidly is the way people consume entertainment. Wrestling at its core is a theatrical LARP. And anyone who's been involved with theatre or LARP knows the kind of attention they require. With the most popular things these days being easily boiled down to gifs and memes and youtube clips, I'd be willing to bet a beer that the focus and investment a full weekly mainstream wrestling show requires just doesn't appeal to 'the normies' with limited time and energy to spare. Yet at the same time a clip of Orange Cassidy's sloth style or Naomi's "Feel The Glow" entrance will go viral just long enough to make it seem possible.
Also reality tv has had a big impact (which is hilarious because wrestling could be considered the og reality tv) but that's another conversation.
Anyway, that's my hot take.
If you take some to a live show or have them over for a PPV party they'll get invested in the product, but following a company weekly for at least 3 hours of content is a big ask.
To be honest, even when I was vibing with WWE from like 2014-2019 I went long periods of time where I didn’t watch RAW or Smackdown. There’s so much pointless filler in many of those episodes that it didn’t feel like it was well spent time.
Talking about the average public getting into wrestling. Bizazedo mentioned Hogan and the Attitude era but I think people forget how big the 80s Rock and Wrestling thing was. Hell Main Event ran on NBC on Friday night and Saturday Night Main Event would replace SNL a few times a year. Those Hulkamania tshirts were everywhere. He had a cartoon, breakfast cereal, bed sheets, and one of those cheesey songs where all the wrestlers clap and sing. I blame the super bowl shuffle for all of those dumb songs but that is getting off topic.
I’m old, so I remember the media frenzy when Mr T and Hulk teamed up. It was insane.
Also none of this diminishes what a colossal piece of shot Hogan is, this is not defending him, I just wanted to talk about how big a deal he really was.
If you take some to a live show or have them over for a PPV party they'll get invested in the product, but following a company weekly for at least 3 hours of content is a big ask.
Well, Attitude Era did have Raw + Heat + PPVs or Raw + Smackdown + PPVs . Let us also never forget Nitro + THUNDER lol.
It absolutely is a big ask, though, and the method of media consumption / huge increase in options is usually the answer as to why ratings for everything have basically cratered. The ratings wrestling enjoys nowadays, be it WWE or AEW, are laughably low compared to the eras of the past....and that's just the way it is nowadays. Unless something seismic happens to how we consume media, that's just the new norm.
Both companies will still try and expand their reach into as many normies as possible, though.
It helped a lot that Nitro and Raw were on at the same time so when one sucked you could switch to the other. I don't think my brothers and I ever watched a Nitro or Raw straight through without switching back and forth unless one was preempted.
It helped a lot that Nitro and Raw were on at the same time so when one sucked you could switch to the other. I don't think my brothers and I ever watched a Nitro or Raw straight through without switching back and forth unless one was preempted.
We did the same thing, although one was more of a hatewatch than the other. WCW got pretty bad near the end (entertainingly so).
Still had better ratings than anything on now, though, related to wrestling . The actual quality was also worse than anything now, though, including WWE.
My main point though, which I think stands and was emphasized by Ken above, is wrestling has always seeked and sometimes achieved "normie" love. That's why I was a bit surprised when so many here agreed with Ms Dapper that wrestling would "never" appeal to normies.
That's....just not true. It's not true historically and it's a bit much to say it could never happen again. Never? If it was true, the wrestling companies would be appalled to find out about that because they want to grow.
What I find to be an actual interesting discussion topic, however, is how they would be able to achieve it again. I don't think ramping up to Attitude levels would do it (different time, different place), but AEW is definitely the more hip of the two right now (despite lower ratings). The average age of viewers of both is still too high for comfort, imo, even if AEW is doing a slightly better dent into the younger crowd.
PG is not cutting it, though.
XBL: Bizazedo
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It helped a lot that Nitro and Raw were on at the same time so when one sucked you could switch to the other. I don't think my brothers and I ever watched a Nitro or Raw straight through without switching back and forth unless one was preempted.
We did the same thing, although one was more of a hatewatch than the other. WCW got pretty bad near the end (entertainingly so).
Still had better ratings than anything on now, though, related to wrestling . The actual quality was also worse than anything now, though, including WWE.
My main point though, which I think stands and was emphasized by Ken above, is wrestling has always seeked and sometimes achieved "normie" love. That's why I was a bit surprised when so many here agreed with Ms Dapper that wrestling would "never" appeal to normies.
That's....just not true. It's not true historically and it's a bit much to say it could never happen again. Never? If it was true, the wrestling companies would be appalled to find out about that because they want to grow.
What I find to be an actual interesting discussion topic, however, is how they would be able to achieve it again. I don't think ramping up to Attitude levels would do it (different time, different place), but AEW is definitely the more hip of the two right now (despite lower ratings). The average age of viewers of both is still too high for comfort, imo, even if AEW is doing a slightly better dent into the younger crowd.
PG is not cutting it, though.
I dunno.
Growing up in the Attitude Era, a lot of people still didn't know that wrestling was fake.
It helped a lot that Nitro and Raw were on at the same time so when one sucked you could switch to the other. I don't think my brothers and I ever watched a Nitro or Raw straight through without switching back and forth unless one was preempted.
We did the same thing, although one was more of a hatewatch than the other. WCW got pretty bad near the end (entertainingly so).
Still had better ratings than anything on now, though, related to wrestling . The actual quality was also worse than anything now, though, including WWE.
My main point though, which I think stands and was emphasized by Ken above, is wrestling has always seeked and sometimes achieved "normie" love. That's why I was a bit surprised when so many here agreed with Ms Dapper that wrestling would "never" appeal to normies.
That's....just not true. It's not true historically and it's a bit much to say it could never happen again. Never? If it was true, the wrestling companies would be appalled to find out about that because they want to grow.
What I find to be an actual interesting discussion topic, however, is how they would be able to achieve it again. I don't think ramping up to Attitude levels would do it (different time, different place), but AEW is definitely the more hip of the two right now (despite lower ratings). The average age of viewers of both is still too high for comfort, imo, even if AEW is doing a slightly better dent into the younger crowd.
PG is not cutting it, though.
I don't think any niche thing is really going to become mainstream popular anymore with how fractured the way people watch tv and consume entertainment is now. One of the bigger things hurting pro-wrestling is that UFC is hugely popular and then there are tons of other combat sports to watch as well. But there is just too many options for what to watch and you can easily just not have cable and still have streaming services and tons of ways to watch entertainment without the possibility of scrolling past a channel with wrestling on and deciding to stop.
I only watch cable for AEW and sports and other than that it is all streaming stuff.
Growing up in the Attitude Era, a lot of people still didn't know that wrestling was fake.
I don't think that's true anymore.
I question how much that brought in the normies.
I'd actually argue that one of the reasons Attitude blew up the way it did is that they pretty much acknowledged stuff was fake / were more open to it being characters. I can't speak to your circles, but I believe people knew The Rock was a character when he crossed over and became huge. Same with Austin, etc.
I don't think any niche thing is really going to become mainstream popular anymore with how fractured the way people watch tv and consume entertainment is now. One of the bigger things hurting pro-wrestling is that UFC is hugely popular and then there are tons of other combat sports to watch as well. But there is just too many options for what to watch and you can easily just not have cable and still have streaming services and tons of ways to watch entertainment without the possibility of scrolling past a channel with wrestling on and deciding to stop.
I only watch cable for AEW and sports and other than that it is all streaming stuff.
Anything niche can blow-up, although I do mostly agree with you. The current environment makes it super hard.
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3 hour Raws just really hurt the attempts to become invested in the product.
Something about the Attitude Era, that as much of it wasn't good, it always felt like "can't miss tv". You didn't want to miss Raw or Smackdown (Heat and everything else was skippeable) because you didn't know what was going to happen. Good or bad.
They were also really good at setting up cliffhanges for next week shows.
Growing up in the Attitude Era, a lot of people still didn't know that wrestling was fake.
I don't think that's true anymore.
I question how much that brought in the normies.
I'd actually argue that one of the reasons Attitude blew up the way it did is that they pretty much acknowledged stuff was fake / were more open to it being characters. I can't speak to your circles, but I believe people knew The Rock was a character when he crossed over and became huge. Same with Austin, etc.
The 90s pretty much killed kayfabe.
I've heard this a lot and I don't disagree with it, but I do think there were also other factors. UFC drew a lot of people away from wrestling. The remainder were folks who were still into wrestling.
I think the reason Hogan was as big as he was, when he did, has more to do with nationalistic views of competition and Americans' love of sports miracles than anything else. Hogan told your kids to say their prayers and take their vitamins, and then he'd go wrestle a racial stereotype masquerading as an entire foreign country, and get all mad and punch them with the holy power of America and freedom and shit. He harnessed an Olympics trope that the country had fallen in love with, to the point where we have several movies about beating the Russians at a sports thing.
This became something of a well that Vince and others would keep going back to, as you all well know.
Much as I like what he's doing with his career nowadays, John Cena was super guilty of this shit too.
3 hour Raws just really hurt the attempts to become invested in the product.
Something about the Attitude Era, that as much of it wasn't good, it always felt like "can't miss tv". You didn't want to miss Raw or Smackdown (Heat and everything else was skippeable) because you didn't know what was going to happen. Good or bad.
They were also really good at setting up cliffhanges for next week shows.
Yeah. 3 hour Nitro's I always felt were a mistake and now we have 3 hour Raws. Sigh.
You're right on the can't miss feel. Somewhat related, I feel one of the biggest problems in WWE today (and one AEW is somewhat avoiding, to their credit) is how interconnected WWE used to feel.
I still remember, to this day, a match with HHH versus TAKA Michinoku for the championship on a Raw. The crowd was super hot and TAKA actually had a moment where the crowd bought he could win.
Or just the entire card interacting. Austin would be in the back and have a convo with Val Venis or someone even lower on the card. It wasn't as partitioned as today feels.
It's like one of the main reasons the Codyverse was so terrible in AEW as it felt sectioned off from the rest.
XBL: Bizazedo
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El Lindaman primarily wrestles for GLEAT, they air all of their shows for free on youtube. I really liked this title tournament match he had against his #STRONGHEARTS teammate T-Hawk. On the slower side, but it's a good example of how his resilience and trickiness makes up for his small size.
Ace Austin is a slippery, sleazy, Jersey scumbag. This 4-way match shows him off really well. If you can find his match against Trey Miguel with Trey's mom ringside definitely check it out. Dude is so grimey
3 hour Raws just really hurt the attempts to become invested in the product.
Something about the Attitude Era, that as much of it wasn't good, it always felt like "can't miss tv". You didn't want to miss Raw or Smackdown (Heat and everything else was skippeable) because you didn't know what was going to happen. Good or bad.
They were also really good at setting up cliffhanges for next week shows.
Yeah. 3 hour Nitro's I always felt were a mistake and now we have 3 hour Raws. Sigh.
You're right on the can't miss feel. Somewhat related, I feel one of the biggest problems in WWE today (and one AEW is somewhat avoiding, to their credit) is how interconnected WWE used to feel.
I still remember, to this day, a match with HHH versus TAKA Michinoku for the championship on a Raw. The crowd was super hot and TAKA actually had a moment where the crowd bought he could win.
Or just the entire card interacting. Austin would be in the back and have a convo with Val Venis or someone even lower on the card. It wasn't as partitioned as today feels.
It's like one of the main reasons the Codyverse was so terrible in AEW as it felt sectioned off from the rest.
Yep, that's been one of my biggest annoyances with WWE for a while now. There's clearly a hierarchy and they rarely devolve from that.
Remember the 2 or 3 week program that Rock and Hurricane had? How entertaining that was? And it got Hurricane a bit more over.
Or my go to example, and one of my favorite matches.
El Lindaman primarily wrestles for GLEAT, they air all of their shows for free on youtube. I really liked this title tournament match he had against his #STRONGHEARTS teammate T-Hawk. On the slower side, but it's a good example of how his resilience and trickiness makes up for his small size.
Ace Austin is a slippery, sleazy, Jersey scumbag. This 4-way match shows him off really well. If you can find his match against Trey Miguel with Trey's mom ringside definitely check it out. Dude is so grimey
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I still need Suzuki vs. Orange Cassidy that the pandemic robbed me of seeing live.
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I'll laugh my ass off if that match happening at the ppv is why Joey couldn't book it for Spring Break this year.
Wait he's back?? I remember watching a match years ago and the dude brought out an ax it ruled.
Steam
Now we know who the #1 Contender should be if Punk wins the title at Double or Nothing.
The problem with that hot take is the huge boom periods with Hogan or the WCW vs WWF war happened.
PSN: Bizazedo
CFN: Bizazedo (I don't think I suck, add me).
But wrestling was also in a boom when my father was a kid and went to see Bruno headline Madison Square Garden once a month. Drive in movie theaters and boardwalk carnivals were also popular then. Things I as a shitty Attitude Era teen thought were super lame.
Entertainment tastes change through the years, but what's changed even more rapidly is the way people consume entertainment. Wrestling at its core is a theatrical LARP. And anyone who's been involved with theatre or LARP knows the kind of attention they require. With the most popular things these days being easily boiled down to gifs and memes and youtube clips, I'd be willing to bet a beer that the focus and investment a full weekly mainstream wrestling show requires just doesn't appeal to 'the normies' with limited time and energy to spare. Yet at the same time a clip of Orange Cassidy's sloth style or Naomi's "Feel The Glow" entrance will go viral just long enough to make it seem possible.
Also reality tv has had a big impact (which is hilarious because wrestling could be considered the og reality tv) but that's another conversation.
Anyway, that's my hot take.
"good" moment where the lady who set up the titles and pulls out the chairs tripped and a bunch of B block got up to help her and Phantasmo was next to come out and mocked her and just looked like the biggest piece of shit.
Also I dont have a link but you can tell Yuta is jet lagged as fucked looked very glassy eyed.
EDIT: A Block went non traditional with their looks aside from Taguchi and Ishimori
You can kind of get a sense of Yuta's sleep deprived 1000yd stare here
If you take some to a live show or have them over for a PPV party they'll get invested in the product, but following a company weekly for at least 3 hours of content is a big ask.
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Really unfortunate news is... yeah no he sucks my guy
His wife was at Jan 6, his podcast has promoted some real harmful shit, his band played in some real dicey moments during the pandemic, this sadly isn't much of a surprise
It's unfortunate he can be such a fun entertainer but, y'know, that's wrestling
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Thinking about it made me realize the one thing I really would love out of the AEW game is them to throw in Kouraken Hall as a venue
let’s goooo
That's the look of a Philly man who thought it'd be a good idea to watch Sixers vs Heat Game 6.
It absolutely is a big ask, though, and the method of media consumption / huge increase in options is usually the answer as to why ratings for everything have basically cratered. The ratings wrestling enjoys nowadays, be it WWE or AEW, are laughably low compared to the eras of the past....and that's just the way it is nowadays. Unless something seismic happens to how we consume media, that's just the new norm.
Both companies will still try and expand their reach into as many normies as possible, though.
PSN: Bizazedo
CFN: Bizazedo (I don't think I suck, add me).
To be honest, even when I was vibing with WWE from like 2014-2019 I went long periods of time where I didn’t watch RAW or Smackdown. There’s so much pointless filler in many of those episodes that it didn’t feel like it was well spent time.
I’m old, so I remember the media frenzy when Mr T and Hulk teamed up. It was insane.
Also none of this diminishes what a colossal piece of shot Hogan is, this is not defending him, I just wanted to talk about how big a deal he really was.
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It helped a lot that Nitro and Raw were on at the same time so when one sucked you could switch to the other. I don't think my brothers and I ever watched a Nitro or Raw straight through without switching back and forth unless one was preempted.
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Still had better ratings than anything on now, though, related to wrestling
My main point though, which I think stands and was emphasized by Ken above, is wrestling has always seeked and sometimes achieved "normie" love. That's why I was a bit surprised when so many here agreed with Ms Dapper that wrestling would "never" appeal to normies.
That's....just not true. It's not true historically and it's a bit much to say it could never happen again. Never? If it was true, the wrestling companies would be appalled to find out about that because they want to grow.
What I find to be an actual interesting discussion topic, however, is how they would be able to achieve it again. I don't think ramping up to Attitude levels would do it (different time, different place), but AEW is definitely the more hip of the two right now (despite lower ratings). The average age of viewers of both is still too high for comfort, imo, even if AEW is doing a slightly better dent into the younger crowd.
PG is not cutting it, though.
PSN: Bizazedo
CFN: Bizazedo (I don't think I suck, add me).
I dunno.
Growing up in the Attitude Era, a lot of people still didn't know that wrestling was fake.
I don't think that's true anymore.
I question how much that brought in the normies.
I don't think any niche thing is really going to become mainstream popular anymore with how fractured the way people watch tv and consume entertainment is now. One of the bigger things hurting pro-wrestling is that UFC is hugely popular and then there are tons of other combat sports to watch as well. But there is just too many options for what to watch and you can easily just not have cable and still have streaming services and tons of ways to watch entertainment without the possibility of scrolling past a channel with wrestling on and deciding to stop.
I only watch cable for AEW and sports and other than that it is all streaming stuff.
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The 90s pretty much killed kayfabe.
Anything niche can blow-up, although I do mostly agree with you. The current environment makes it super hard.
PSN: Bizazedo
CFN: Bizazedo (I don't think I suck, add me).
Something about the Attitude Era, that as much of it wasn't good, it always felt like "can't miss tv". You didn't want to miss Raw or Smackdown (Heat and everything else was skippeable) because you didn't know what was going to happen. Good or bad.
They were also really good at setting up cliffhanges for next week shows.
I've heard this a lot and I don't disagree with it, but I do think there were also other factors. UFC drew a lot of people away from wrestling. The remainder were folks who were still into wrestling.
I think the reason Hogan was as big as he was, when he did, has more to do with nationalistic views of competition and Americans' love of sports miracles than anything else. Hogan told your kids to say their prayers and take their vitamins, and then he'd go wrestle a racial stereotype masquerading as an entire foreign country, and get all mad and punch them with the holy power of America and freedom and shit. He harnessed an Olympics trope that the country had fallen in love with, to the point where we have several movies about beating the Russians at a sports thing.
This became something of a well that Vince and others would keep going back to, as you all well know.
Much as I like what he's doing with his career nowadays, John Cena was super guilty of this shit too.
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You're right on the can't miss feel. Somewhat related, I feel one of the biggest problems in WWE today (and one AEW is somewhat avoiding, to their credit) is how interconnected WWE used to feel.
I still remember, to this day, a match with HHH versus TAKA Michinoku for the championship on a Raw. The crowd was super hot and TAKA actually had a moment where the crowd bought he could win.
Or just the entire card interacting. Austin would be in the back and have a convo with Val Venis or someone even lower on the card. It wasn't as partitioned as today feels.
It's like one of the main reasons the Codyverse was so terrible in AEW as it felt sectioned off from the rest.
PSN: Bizazedo
CFN: Bizazedo (I don't think I suck, add me).
@Andy Joe
El Lindaman primarily wrestles for GLEAT, they air all of their shows for free on youtube. I really liked this title tournament match he had against his #STRONGHEARTS teammate T-Hawk. On the slower side, but it's a good example of how his resilience and trickiness makes up for his small size.
Ace Austin is a slippery, sleazy, Jersey scumbag. This 4-way match shows him off really well. If you can find his match against Trey Miguel with Trey's mom ringside definitely check it out. Dude is so grimey
Yep, that's been one of my biggest annoyances with WWE for a while now. There's clearly a hierarchy and they rarely devolve from that.
Remember the 2 or 3 week program that Rock and Hurricane had? How entertaining that was? And it got Hurricane a bit more over.
Or my go to example, and one of my favorite matches.
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3iduvf
Too Cool and Rakishi were completely unexpected, but they fit in perfectly in the match and it made them even more of a crowd favorite.
Also rewatching this, that crowd is MOLTEN.
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Because everyone got something to do. Put people on camera and/or in the ring -> they get over. Weird how that worked.
Everyone you remember. Let me tell you about the NWA invasion angle...
Thanks, I'll check these out.