I feel like you almost have to partition based on era for a list like that. Like, 1999-2014, 2014-2022, etc. The game is just too different now.
Yes, and Steph has made the largest individual contribution to that change. Like that partition is “ankles Curry/MVP Curry.”
He’s 3 on that list for me
Curry is just so tough because his Finals performances are just not that impressive. Like, he lost the MVP to a guy who average like 15 points per game. And this isn't to say he's been bad in the Finals, he just usually goes from looking like top 3 in the league in the regular season, to like, consistent all-star reserve level player in the finals. That's why, for me, the Finals MVP is so important for him, because that's the biggest ding on his record IMO.
Well Lebron was the real MVP of that series by 4 trips around the earth and voters were so confused about having to pick someone else they picked the guy primarily guarding Lebron, again during one of the great individual Finals performances ever
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ButtersA glass of some milksRegistered Userregular
I wer to do eras, it would prob be 1999-2010 (Duncan-Shaq-Kobe) then 2011-present (Lebron-KD-Curry-Kawhi). Its hard to do that though, Since Lebron was the best player in the league for half of the Duncan-Shaq-Kobe era, even if he wasn't in the finals. I also think Giannis-Jokic-Luka- etc. are beginning a new era which will take over any year now. We are probably in an era transition now, but Curry and the Warriors are still hanging on.
Anyway, a championship and finals MVP would pretty clearly but Curry just behind Lebron in this era, and ahead of KD.
Hot Take - Kawhi was in the right place at the right time twice (hit the Heat at the end of their line, hit the Warriors during two catastrophic injuries).
The Spurs still had too make it through the meat grinder that was the mid 2010s West. The Heat bench and back court was super thin but San Antonio appropriately smashed them in the most lopsided non-sweep in NBA history.
He should have won that finals mvp if we’re being honest; anyone the opposing team feels compelled to trap 35 feet out is the MVP of that game/series
It was fun for iggy to win it, but still
Yeah I don't know anyone who in retrospect seriously thinks that Iggy actually deserved that Finals MVP over Steph. It's so obvious that if you weren't going to give it to LeBron, then Steph was the next MVP in that series.
Holding not winning a Finals MVP against someone who has been the best player on multiple championship teams is certainly a take, though... =P
Nah, KD was def the best player on 2 of those titles. Steph has been best player on 1 championship, and again, was so underwhelming everyone decided they'd rather give it to Iggy.
Though, tbh, I just went back and looked at those stats, and he really only had one bad game, and the rest were pretty decent. Steph may suffer a bit from people like me, and others, that when he is playing at his best, it looks so easy and electric, that if he is really having to work for it, we can be like "wtf, why is he struggling", only to look up at the end of the game and he has 26 points on 45% shooting and is like 5-12 on 3s and it's just like, Kobe would have killed to average that in the playoffs.
different eras and teams though
Kobe ball doesn't work in this era of the the NBA
You can't just put a team on your back and expect to win a seven game series no matter how talented you are, you need reliable shooters and some sort of paint presence
I mean just look at the fact that no regular season MVP candidates are even still playing basketball right now
Those three (Jokic, Giannis, Embiid) are singularly dominant on the floor and can will their teams to improbable wins on any given night but to win a seven game series your team needs to be able to do more than ball watch
Curry is incredibly talented but he has never been put in a situation with shitty teammates and no recourse like say lebron, Westbrook or harden. It's not his fault and you can't really hold that against him but at the same time he also has had more playoff success than anyone playing in the NBA right now and a large part of that is him being able to elevate otherwise mediocre teammates
Well, to be honest, Kobe never put a team on his back to win titles the way they talk about. Its still kind of unbelievable to me how the myth of Kobe has evolved to the point where people act like Shaq rode his coattails or some shit, when Shaq was clearly superior to him throughout every single one of those titles. Even with the second 2, many people, including myself, thought that Pau should have gotten the finals MVP in 2010. I mean, the dude shot 6-24 during game 7, and some how people act like that is even more evidence of his greatness, that he could be constantly hurting his team taking awful, awful shots, but he has such "boundless confidence" and "killer instinct" that he'll just keep doing it.
The couple of years that Kobe really had to carry bad teams, he missed the playoffs or was out in the first round. At the toppity top peakity peak of his prime.
Luka is an amazing offensive player, but his defense is atrocious. I really don't think you can put him in the Top 5, or even Top 10, of the league if he's going to continue to be such a defensive sieve, especially in the playoffs when it matters the most.
His defense has been worse this playoff than last year or even through the regular season. Part of me wonders how much of it is effort, ability, and/or conserving energy + avoiding foul trouble.
I do think its the next part of his game he needs to focus on.
Saying you can't put him in the top 10 in the league is kind of silly. He is averaging the most points in the playoffs, and is 3rd for the season.
For the playoffs he's 1st in points, 9th in rebounds, and 9th in assists.
kobe's kinda weird because from an outside/fan perspective he seemed like a great player, but one that didn't elevate inferior teams and must have been a giant pain in the ass to play with; meanwhile his peers (even before he died) would talk about him with something like reverence
like I look at his era and think there's probably five or six players I'd take over him in a start-a-franchise draft, but it seems like his peers woulda picked him #1
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
kobe's kinda weird because from an outside/fan perspective he seemed like a great player, but one that didn't elevate inferior teams and must have been a giant pain in the ass to play with; meanwhile his peers (even before he died) would talk about him with something like reverence
like I look at his era and think there's probably five or six players I'd take over him in a start-a-franchise draft, but it seems like his peers woulda picked him #1
What's that list look like? I see maybe four at the most? Timmy, Shaq almost for sure, then KG and Dirk? Who else? Five or six seems like a bit of a stretch to me.
Kobe's in an interesting spot, legacy-wise. You're right in that player perception of him is way inflated over where he probably actually deserved to be within the era (and all-time), and I think the way the modern game has gone we sort of cringe at the thought of an inefficient volume shooter. But his resume is pretty stellar and he was the best player on the squad for multiple championships. (I don't view it as a drag on his rep that Gasol was also a great player.)
kobe's kinda weird because from an outside/fan perspective he seemed like a great player, but one that didn't elevate inferior teams and must have been a giant pain in the ass to play with; meanwhile his peers (even before he died) would talk about him with something like reverence
like I look at his era and think there's probably five or six players I'd take over him in a start-a-franchise draft, but it seems like his peers woulda picked him #1
What's that list look like? I see maybe four at the most? Timmy, Shaq almost for sure, then KG and Dirk? Who else? Five or six seems like a bit of a stretch to me.
Kobe's in an interesting spot, legacy-wise. You're right in that player perception of him is way inflated over where he probably actually deserved to be within the era, and I think the way the modern game has gone we sort of cringe at the thought of an inefficient volume shooter. But his resume is pretty stellar and he was the best player on the squad for multiple championships. (I don't view it as a drag on his rep that Gasol was also a great player.)
I used to be a Kobe hater, but I've come around on him.
I do think he was a volume shooter, and far more inefficient than he could've been. But I also think he has to be put into context. Shaq made a comment years ago that really resonated me with regards to the Triangle Offense - it only works with superstar players. I think he was dead on. In fact, I think it only worked because of the SPECIFIC superstar players involved. You couldn't get just "any" superstars and expect it to work. It only worked in the Bulls era because of Jordan+Pippen, the low priority on 3-point shooting, and the different defensive rules. And I think it only worked in the Shaq/Gasol+Kobe era because they had Kobe and an amazing low-post option.
Kobe basically willed the Triangle to work by being able to score what most would consider to be "bad shots" at an efficient clip. He was the type of player who would basically will himself to win, so I think if he played in the modern era he'd move behind the line and have an amazing 3P% and would look much better from an analytics/efficiency perspective. But he was asked to make the Triangle work, so he made it work.
I dont mind admitting Kobe was a great player, hes mainly just annoying because of the delusion of his fans. When people talk about him, and why he's great they are almost always talking about his personality or his aesthetics, and any serious discussion falls apart if you bring up the numbers.
The era stuff is overblown. He and Lebron shared prime or near prime years for like 6 seasons, and Lebron always manages to be efficient. Like sure, its always hard for anyone but Jordan to compare to Lebron, but thats where people try to put him. Hence, the delusional fans.
Not to mention his off court shit, which includes and admitted rape, but everyone still wants to act like he's one of history's greatest men.
i'm hoping their series goes 7 games and gives smart/jimmy enough time to recover
i don't need any comments from anyone when the warriors win the title about how there should be an asterisk
i'm hoping their series goes 7 games and gives smart/jimmy enough time to recover
i don't need any comments from anyone when the warriors win the title about how there should be an asterisk
Lord knows we hear enough about asterisks for Cleveland and Toronto.
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ButtersA glass of some milksRegistered Userregular
I dont mind admitting Kobe was a great player, hes mainly just annoying because of the delusion of his fans. When people talk about him, and why he's great they are almost always talking about his personality or his aesthetics, and any serious discussion falls apart if you bring up the numbers.
The era stuff is overblown. He and Lebron shared prime or near prime years for like 6 seasons, and Lebron always manages to be efficient. Like sure, its always hard for anyone but Jordan to compare to Lebron, but thats where people try to put him. Hence, the delusional fans.
Not to mention his off court shit, which includes and admitted rape, but everyone still wants to act like he's one of history's greatest men.
Jordan gets brought up in conversations about Kobe because they had similar offensive styles and hyper competitive attitudes. I doubt any non-Laker fan thinks Bryant was on the same level though.
I dont mind admitting Kobe was a great player, hes mainly just annoying because of the delusion of his fans. When people talk about him, and why he's great they are almost always talking about his personality or his aesthetics, and any serious discussion falls apart if you bring up the numbers.
The era stuff is overblown. He and Lebron shared prime or near prime years for like 6 seasons, and Lebron always manages to be efficient. Like sure, its always hard for anyone but Jordan to compare to Lebron, but thats where people try to put him. Hence, the delusional fans.
Not to mention his off court shit, which includes and admitted rape, but everyone still wants to act like he's one of history's greatest men.
Jordan gets brought up in conversations about Kobe because they had similar offensive styles and hyper competitive attitudes. I doubt any non-Laker fan thinks Bryant was on the same level though.
Yeah, like I said I've come around on him but I still don't think he's Top 10 for his own era.
one of the better players of their era (but not top 10) elevated to one of the best ever by external factors like market size and media.
How dare you.
Jeter was barely an All-Star who somehow became lionized into one of the greatest to ever play the game.
Put some RE2PECT on Kobe's name.
Pump the brakes, bud. I hate the fucking Yankees and even I know he was a first ballot hall of famer. Dude finished with a 310 average after 20 years in the league. "Barely an All-Star" is more hyperbolic than "greatest ever"
one of the better players of their era (but not top 10) elevated to one of the best ever by external factors like market size and media.
How dare you.
Jeter was barely an All-Star who somehow became lionized into one of the greatest to ever play the game.
Put some RE2PECT on Kobe's name.
Pump the brakes, bud. I hate the fucking Yankees and even I know he was a first ballot hall of famer. Dude finished with a 310 average after 20 years in the league. "Barely an All-Star" is more hyperbolic than "greatest ever"
If he played another position instead of shortstop, then sure. In a vacuum, he's a great hitter. In total, he was such a net negative on defense that he took away a lot of the value that his hitting provided.
I dont mind admitting Kobe was a great player, hes mainly just annoying because of the delusion of his fans. When people talk about him, and why he's great they are almost always talking about his personality or his aesthetics, and any serious discussion falls apart if you bring up the numbers.
The era stuff is overblown. He and Lebron shared prime or near prime years for like 6 seasons, and Lebron always manages to be efficient. Like sure, its always hard for anyone but Jordan to compare to Lebron, but thats where people try to put him. Hence, the delusional fans.
Not to mention his off court shit, which includes and admitted rape, but everyone still wants to act like he's one of history's greatest men.
Jordan gets brought up in conversations about Kobe because they had similar offensive styles and hyper competitive attitudes. I doubt any non-Laker fan thinks Bryant was on the same level though.
Yeah, like I said I've come around on him but I still don't think he's Top 10 for his own era.
Please name the other 10?
I feel like we might be working with extremely divergent standards of what constitutes an era in sports. I don't really consider, for instance, Kobe and LeBron to be from the same era. LeBron and KD and Steph, yes. Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Dirk and KG in another.
I think Kobe is significantly overrated but to put him outside top 10 in his own era feels basically ludicrous, on resume alone.
as expected, mavs won today cause the warriors love ending series at home, but we should all acknowledge that dray ended with only one foul and somehow the warriors collectively only had 8 turnovers this game which is incredible
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Curry is just so tough because his Finals performances are just not that impressive. Like, he lost the MVP to a guy who average like 15 points per game. And this isn't to say he's been bad in the Finals, he just usually goes from looking like top 3 in the league in the regular season, to like, consistent all-star reserve level player in the finals. That's why, for me, the Finals MVP is so important for him, because that's the biggest ding on his record IMO.
It was fun for iggy to win it, but still
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
The Spurs still had too make it through the meat grinder that was the mid 2010s West. The Heat bench and back court was super thin but San Antonio appropriately smashed them in the most lopsided non-sweep in NBA history.
Yeah I don't know anyone who in retrospect seriously thinks that Iggy actually deserved that Finals MVP over Steph. It's so obvious that if you weren't going to give it to LeBron, then Steph was the next MVP in that series.
Holding not winning a Finals MVP against someone who has been the best player on multiple championship teams is certainly a take, though... =P
Though, tbh, I just went back and looked at those stats, and he really only had one bad game, and the rest were pretty decent. Steph may suffer a bit from people like me, and others, that when he is playing at his best, it looks so easy and electric, that if he is really having to work for it, we can be like "wtf, why is he struggling", only to look up at the end of the game and he has 26 points on 45% shooting and is like 5-12 on 3s and it's just like, Kobe would have killed to average that in the playoffs.
Kobe ball doesn't work in this era of the the NBA
You can't just put a team on your back and expect to win a seven game series no matter how talented you are, you need reliable shooters and some sort of paint presence
I mean just look at the fact that no regular season MVP candidates are even still playing basketball right now
Those three (Jokic, Giannis, Embiid) are singularly dominant on the floor and can will their teams to improbable wins on any given night but to win a seven game series your team needs to be able to do more than ball watch
Curry is incredibly talented but he has never been put in a situation with shitty teammates and no recourse like say lebron, Westbrook or harden. It's not his fault and you can't really hold that against him but at the same time he also has had more playoff success than anyone playing in the NBA right now and a large part of that is him being able to elevate otherwise mediocre teammates
The couple of years that Kobe really had to carry bad teams, he missed the playoffs or was out in the first round. At the toppity top peakity peak of his prime.
His defense has been worse this playoff than last year or even through the regular season. Part of me wonders how much of it is effort, ability, and/or conserving energy + avoiding foul trouble.
I do think its the next part of his game he needs to focus on.
Saying you can't put him in the top 10 in the league is kind of silly. He is averaging the most points in the playoffs, and is 3rd for the season.
For the playoffs he's 1st in points, 9th in rebounds, and 9th in assists.
like I look at his era and think there's probably five or six players I'd take over him in a start-a-franchise draft, but it seems like his peers woulda picked him #1
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
What's that list look like? I see maybe four at the most? Timmy, Shaq almost for sure, then KG and Dirk? Who else? Five or six seems like a bit of a stretch to me.
Kobe's in an interesting spot, legacy-wise. You're right in that player perception of him is way inflated over where he probably actually deserved to be within the era (and all-time), and I think the way the modern game has gone we sort of cringe at the thought of an inefficient volume shooter. But his resume is pretty stellar and he was the best player on the squad for multiple championships. (I don't view it as a drag on his rep that Gasol was also a great player.)
And the great Spo hasn't used a single timeout...
Incredible
I used to be a Kobe hater, but I've come around on him.
I do think he was a volume shooter, and far more inefficient than he could've been. But I also think he has to be put into context. Shaq made a comment years ago that really resonated me with regards to the Triangle Offense - it only works with superstar players. I think he was dead on. In fact, I think it only worked because of the SPECIFIC superstar players involved. You couldn't get just "any" superstars and expect it to work. It only worked in the Bulls era because of Jordan+Pippen, the low priority on 3-point shooting, and the different defensive rules. And I think it only worked in the Shaq/Gasol+Kobe era because they had Kobe and an amazing low-post option.
Kobe basically willed the Triangle to work by being able to score what most would consider to be "bad shots" at an efficient clip. He was the type of player who would basically will himself to win, so I think if he played in the modern era he'd move behind the line and have an amazing 3P% and would look much better from an analytics/efficiency perspective. But he was asked to make the Triangle work, so he made it work.
The era stuff is overblown. He and Lebron shared prime or near prime years for like 6 seasons, and Lebron always manages to be efficient. Like sure, its always hard for anyone but Jordan to compare to Lebron, but thats where people try to put him. Hence, the delusional fans.
Not to mention his off court shit, which includes and admitted rape, but everyone still wants to act like he's one of history's greatest men.
i don't need any comments from anyone when the warriors win the title about how there should be an asterisk
the best part was the fact that chuck doomed the mavs from even before the series started
Lord knows we hear enough about asterisks for Cleveland and Toronto.
Jordan gets brought up in conversations about Kobe because they had similar offensive styles and hyper competitive attitudes. I doubt any non-Laker fan thinks Bryant was on the same level though.
As a Mavs fan I was soooo sad when he picked us. It was at that moment I knew we didn't have a chance.
Yeah, like I said I've come around on him but I still don't think he's Top 10 for his own era.
15 years and counting
one of the better players of their era (but not top 10) elevated to one of the best ever by external factors like market size and media.
How dare you.
Jeter was barely an All-Star who somehow became lionized into one of the greatest to ever play the game.
Put some RE2PECT on Kobe's name.
Pump the brakes, bud. I hate the fucking Yankees and even I know he was a first ballot hall of famer. Dude finished with a 310 average after 20 years in the league. "Barely an All-Star" is more hyperbolic than "greatest ever"
If he played another position instead of shortstop, then sure. In a vacuum, he's a great hitter. In total, he was such a net negative on defense that he took away a lot of the value that his hitting provided.
we're here to talk about how much the warriors are gonna get blown out by tonight
Please name the other 10?
I feel like we might be working with extremely divergent standards of what constitutes an era in sports. I don't really consider, for instance, Kobe and LeBron to be from the same era. LeBron and KD and Steph, yes. Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Dirk and KG in another.
I think Kobe is significantly overrated but to put him outside top 10 in his own era feels basically ludicrous, on resume alone.
So at least I’m predisposed to downgrading the dudes from that era
preDray and Dray
We all forgot about Dray
We were warned, but may never learn.