If you want a grounded criticism of cops that doesn't rely on prior (and very justifiable) reasons to dislike cops as a whole: We have a truly staggering, awful amount of experience with mass shootings. The agreed upon doctrinal response, taught everywhere from law enforcement to security guards to teachers to the goddamn children themselves, is that you engage the shooter aggressively without attempting to render aid, wait for backup, fortify positions, or anything else. This is because, as our awful history of mass shootings has taught us, most shooters will not stop until they meet resistance and many shooters will crumple or kill themselves at the first sign of resistance.
If the police, who absolutely did have this shooter outgunned, cannot be expected to follow this doctrine, then police inaction will cause more deaths. The police in this situation were either trained poorly, because they genuinely believed their response was correct, or they were cowards, because they were more concerned with self preservation than with doing what they should have.
Moreover if you're in a job where you carry a gun, and you're not willing to put yourself between an attacker and a child fucking quit.
That's the logical followup, yeah. If you cannot actually trust police to follow the doctrinal response when it becomes dangerous to them, then police having ready access to firearms starts to look less like a necessary tool for the protection of society and more like a massive liability.
If you want a grounded criticism of cops that doesn't rely on prior (and very justifiable) reasons to dislike cops as a whole: We have a truly staggering, awful amount of experience with mass shootings. The agreed upon doctrinal response, taught everywhere from law enforcement to security guards to teachers to the goddamn children themselves, is that you engage the shooter aggressively without attempting to render aid, wait for backup, fortify positions, or anything else. This is because, as our awful history of mass shootings has taught us, most shooters will not stop until they meet resistance and many shooters will crumple or kill themselves at the first sign of resistance.
If the police, who absolutely did have this shooter outgunned, cannot be expected to follow this doctrine, then police inaction will cause more deaths. The police in this situation were either trained poorly, because they genuinely believed their response was correct, or they were cowards, because they were more concerned with self preservation than with doing what they should have.
just to be super clear about this:
Police departments reassessed their tactics and now train for Columbine-like situations after criticism over the slow response and progress of the SWAT teams during the shooting.[265][266]
Police followed a traditional tactic at Columbine: surround the building, set up a perimeter, and contain the damage. That approach has been replaced by a tactic known as the Immediate Action Rapid Deployment tactic. This tactic calls for a four-person team to advance into the site of any ongoing shooting, optimally a diamond-shaped wedge, but even with just a single officer if more are not available. Police officers using this tactic are trained to move toward the sound of gunfire and neutralize the shooter as quickly as possible.[267] Their goal is to stop the shooter at all costs; they are to walk past wounded victims, as the aim is to prevent the shooter from killing or wounding more. Dave Cullen has stated: "The active protocol has proved successful at numerous shootings... At Virginia Tech alone, it probably saved dozens of lives."[145]
Instead of that, they did exactly the Columbine thing, a thing that over 20 years ago was seen as ineffective
The police response to this fucked up, there is no argument about this. They did exactly the opposite of what you are supposed to do if you are a responder in these situations.
- There was *not* a school officer on scene, despite initial reports
- The backdoor gunman used was unlocked
- It took an hour to take the gunman out after he entered
- Gunman shot at witnesses in the street before entering
Seen elsewhere:
Cops hide. Kids die.
According to that report, the local cops engaged the shooter inside the school and had to take cover from return fire. So more, "cops tried to stop the shooter but were outgunned, took cover and called in a tactical team" but that's tough to fit on a t shirt.
You mean the self-serving report from the very people whose performance we're infuriated over?
Let's review the (reported) performance of the Uvalde Police and CBP response team on Tuesday:
- Waited 35-60 minutes before entering school while kids bled out, wasting golden hour
- Tazed / arrested parents begging them to go in, and attempting to rescue their kids themselves
- When they did enter the school, they went to rescue their own kids first rather than deal with the shooter
- Proved incapable of opening a locked door to the room where the shooter was, so they had a school employee do it for them with a key
- Armed school resource officer failed to prevent shooter from entering school
- Uvalde SWAT team had done a walkthrough of the school in Feb to prepare for just such a situation
- Outside observers saying Uvalde police ignored every lesson learned since Columbine
- When the police did enter the classroom, they failed to neutralize the shooter first, and as a result another child died due to their incompetence
- Initially lied about the timeline
- Police is 40% of Uvalde's budget
I'm going to stick with the original.
Interesting take - I prefer the latest, most accurate official reporting on emerging events. Initial reports in events like these is almost always fallible. But I'm one of those crazy progressives that likes to reserve judgement until I get that facts of any given matter.
When the officials are the ones under criticism for their behavior, their reports are suspect at best.
That's the way of conspiracy and media illiteracy.
- There was *not* a school officer on scene, despite initial reports
- The backdoor gunman used was unlocked
- It took an hour to take the gunman out after he entered
- Gunman shot at witnesses in the street before entering
Seen elsewhere:
Cops hide. Kids die.
According to that report, the local cops engaged the shooter inside the school and had to take cover from return fire. So more, "cops tried to stop the shooter but were outgunned, took cover and called in a tactical team" but that's tough to fit on a t shirt.
Yeah, "cops hide, kids die" is an accurate way to describe that scenario.
You think that taking cover under overwhelming fire is "hiding"? What good does a bunch of dead cops do in that situation?
We'll never know because Blue Lives Matter (more than trying to save schoolchildren).
Please explain to me in detail how a small force of men with sidearms are supposed to engage with an unknown number of assailants welding assault rifle(s) in school interior effectively.
Y'all are fuckin loons for demanding that cops 'throw their bodies' between victims and shooters. That's so wildly, blatantly ineffective and stupid that I'm bewildered so many of you are latching on to it. You hate cops, I get it. But at least critique their usage and response in a manner grounded in reality.
People on Team Gun are making sounds shaped like logic but it's just an opening to go TEAM GUN TEAM GUN TEAM GUN. But I'm going to assume you're a member of the PA forums and not somebody on Team Gun who is just going "well I still think I'm right" because you don't want to take the L on this.
And if you're not, perhaps this will help someone else instead:
This is a policy paper from the International Association of Chiefs of Police. It reads in part:
Active shootings can result in a number of casualties in a short period of time, generally before officers or other emergency responders can even be summoned. In spite of this logistical disadvantage, it has been recognized that even one or two armed officers can make a difference in the outcome of active shootings by taking swift, but calculated, individual or coordinated action. For example, during the 2009 Fort Hood, Texas, shooting, two officers in close proximity to the incident took immediate action that successfully stopped the threat. Given this and similar incidents, current thinking reemphasizes that, given proper justification as defined by law and agency policy, taking immediate action during active shooter incidents, rather than waiting for specially equipped and trained officers, can save lives and prevent serious injuries. Time lost by delayed action is likely to result in additional casualties
Their national protocol is called ALERRT and it was developed in... and you can't make this fucking shit up... in Texas, in conjunction with Texas law enforcement, at UT Austin like 3 hours drive from Uvalde.
Here's the ALERRT course catalog, which you can see has as the Level 1 training "get in there and fucking engage with the shooter" https://alerrt.org/Course-Catalog
This dynamic course of instruction is designed to prepare the first responder to isolate, distract, and neutralize an active shooter. This course will cover shooting and moving, threshold evaluation, concepts and principles of team movement, setting up for and room entry techniques...
So, yes, the thing you're mocking and saying is looney turns out to be the actual and specific training they should have followed. And simultaneously it turns out that in this case you don't what the fuck you're talking about, at all.
So all that remains with this little tangent I think is to find out whether you'll take the L or just go "I still think I'm right" aka Cheer for Team Gun No Matter What.
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Also, using the wikipedia page on school shootings, I did a quick comparison, starting with Columbine, of US school shooting deaths versus other parts of the world.
America: 367 Deaths since 1999. Population 329 million. Per capita: 11 in 10 million (I think i did per capita correctly here, number of deaths divided by population then times 10 million to get a real number to compare for reasons that will be obvious in the next sentence)
Europe (all of Europe, the continent of Europe): 124 Deaths since 1994. Per capita: 1 in 10 million
In a longer time span (and I chose 1994 for Europe because that included one of the biggest incidents in the UK), there have been a third less total deaths, and with over double the population.
So we now have it confirmed via the Wall Street Journal (article behind paywall) that the gunman was firing shots outside the school for twelve minutes before entering.
We also have confirmation that the police, while standing around outside not trying to save the students, were keeping busy handcuffing and pepper-spraying parents who were justifiably angry that the cops weren't doing anything. Including one woman who, when the handcuffs were removed from her, was able to jump the fence and get inside the building to escort her children to safety.
- There was *not* a school officer on scene, despite initial reports
- The backdoor gunman used was unlocked
- It took an hour to take the gunman out after he entered
- Gunman shot at witnesses in the street before entering
Seen elsewhere:
Cops hide. Kids die.
According to that report, the local cops engaged the shooter inside the school and had to take cover from return fire. So more, "cops tried to stop the shooter but were outgunned, took cover and called in a tactical team" but that's tough to fit on a t shirt.
You mean the self-serving report from the very people whose performance we're infuriated over?
Let's review the (reported) performance of the Uvalde Police and CBP response team on Tuesday:
- Waited 35-60 minutes before entering school while kids bled out, wasting golden hour
- Tazed / arrested parents begging them to go in, and attempting to rescue their kids themselves
- When they did enter the school, they went to rescue their own kids first rather than deal with the shooter
- Proved incapable of opening a locked door to the room where the shooter was, so they had a school employee do it for them with a key
- Armed school resource officer failed to prevent shooter from entering school
- Uvalde SWAT team had done a walkthrough of the school in Feb to prepare for just such a situation
- Outside observers saying Uvalde police ignored every lesson learned since Columbine
- When the police did enter the classroom, they failed to neutralize the shooter first, and as a result another child died due to their incompetence
- Initially lied about the timeline
- Police is 40% of Uvalde's budget
I'm going to stick with the original.
Interesting take - I prefer the latest, most accurate official reporting on emerging events. Initial reports in events like these is almost always fallible. But I'm one of those crazy progressives that likes to reserve judgement until I get that facts of any given matter.
When the officials are the ones under criticism for their behavior, their reports are suspect at best.
That's the way of conspiracy and media illiteracy.
- There was *not* a school officer on scene, despite initial reports
- The backdoor gunman used was unlocked
- It took an hour to take the gunman out after he entered
- Gunman shot at witnesses in the street before entering
Seen elsewhere:
Cops hide. Kids die.
According to that report, the local cops engaged the shooter inside the school and had to take cover from return fire. So more, "cops tried to stop the shooter but were outgunned, took cover and called in a tactical team" but that's tough to fit on a t shirt.
Yeah, "cops hide, kids die" is an accurate way to describe that scenario.
You think that taking cover under overwhelming fire is "hiding"? What good does a bunch of dead cops do in that situation?
We'll never know because Blue Lives Matter (more than trying to save schoolchildren).
Please explain to me in detail how a small force of men with sidearms are supposed to engage with an unknown number of assailants welding assault rifle(s) in school interior effectively.
Y'all are fuckin loons for demanding that cops 'throw their bodies' between victims and shooters. That's so wildly, blatantly ineffective and stupid that I'm bewildered so many of you are latching on to it. You hate cops, I get it. But at least critique their usage and response in a manner grounded in reality.
You do know that this, very specifically, is the recommended tactic, recommended by the police and their trainers, in this kind of situation?
What, you think you know more about it than the cops you are trying to worship?
What
I know your just here trolling and don't care about your uninformed trolling comments, but Literally the police policy.
Changes discussed include policies and practices which are focused on reducing the number of victims when an active shooter incident happens by engaging the shooter as quickly as possible and not necessarily waiting for SWAT or other special units to arrive.
Dumbass.
in my experience as a person that has helped organize armed community defense for leftist events in the south, and run active shooter drills, this is correct, yeah
it's actually really difficult to engage with two people coordinating their fire, as a single shooter, even with hard cover, and a rifle isn't going to make a tremendous amount of difference at the ranges involved in a school
i don't really know what to say about the response to this shooting other than that i'm completely disgusted
the father that was ready to go in there unarmed had the right idea, obviously it's better to have a gun than not, but if you don't the thing to do is set up an ambush or wait for a reload, rush the shooter to get inside of and take control of their weapon arm
sitting around doesn't minimize damage in a spree shooting, just gives them more time to rack up body count
Might as well defund police if all the money ends up doing is making them look tacticool while they murder people during no-knock raids or traffic stops or safety checks or while eating candy or while sitting in their yard or, or, or, or ad nfinitum while they act like cowards during the one time they were supposed to actually do something with all their gear.
Random unarmed citizens show more courage than this all the time, even people who are not trained to fight. Hell there are corporate trainings about fighting back if you get stuck in the office by an attacker.
These cops have a lower expectation to defend people than a file clerk.
- There was *not* a school officer on scene, despite initial reports
- The backdoor gunman used was unlocked
- It took an hour to take the gunman out after he entered
- Gunman shot at witnesses in the street before entering
Seen elsewhere:
Cops hide. Kids die.
According to that report, the local cops engaged the shooter inside the school and had to take cover from return fire. So more, "cops tried to stop the shooter but were outgunned, took cover and called in a tactical team" but that's tough to fit on a t shirt.
You mean the self-serving report from the very people whose performance we're infuriated over?
Let's review the (reported) performance of the Uvalde Police and CBP response team on Tuesday:
- Waited 35-60 minutes before entering school while kids bled out, wasting golden hour
- Tazed / arrested parents begging them to go in, and attempting to rescue their kids themselves
- When they did enter the school, they went to rescue their own kids first rather than deal with the shooter
- Proved incapable of opening a locked door to the room where the shooter was, so they had a school employee do it for them with a key
- Armed school resource officer failed to prevent shooter from entering school
- Uvalde SWAT team had done a walkthrough of the school in Feb to prepare for just such a situation
- Outside observers saying Uvalde police ignored every lesson learned since Columbine
- When the police did enter the classroom, they failed to neutralize the shooter first, and as a result another child died due to their incompetence
- Initially lied about the timeline
- Police is 40% of Uvalde's budget
I'm going to stick with the original.
Interesting take - I prefer the latest, most accurate official reporting on emerging events. Initial reports in events like these is almost always fallible. But I'm one of those crazy progressives that likes to reserve judgement until I get that facts of any given matter.
When the officials are the ones under criticism for their behavior, their reports are suspect at best.
That's the way of conspiracy and media illiteracy.
- There was *not* a school officer on scene, despite initial reports
- The backdoor gunman used was unlocked
- It took an hour to take the gunman out after he entered
- Gunman shot at witnesses in the street before entering
Seen elsewhere:
Cops hide. Kids die.
According to that report, the local cops engaged the shooter inside the school and had to take cover from return fire. So more, "cops tried to stop the shooter but were outgunned, took cover and called in a tactical team" but that's tough to fit on a t shirt.
Yeah, "cops hide, kids die" is an accurate way to describe that scenario.
You think that taking cover under overwhelming fire is "hiding"? What good does a bunch of dead cops do in that situation?
We'll never know because Blue Lives Matter (more than trying to save schoolchildren).
Please explain to me in detail how a small force of men with sidearms are supposed to engage with an unknown number of assailants welding assault rifle(s) in school interior effectively.
Y'all are fuckin loons for demanding that cops 'throw their bodies' between victims and shooters. That's so wildly, blatantly ineffective and stupid that I'm bewildered so many of you are latching on to it. You hate cops, I get it. But at least critique their usage and response in a manner grounded in reality.
You do know that this, very specifically, is the recommended tactic, recommended by the police and their trainers, in this kind of situation?
What, you think you know more about it than the cops you are trying to worship?
What
I know your just here trolling and don't care about your uninformed trolling comments, but Literally the police policy.
Changes discussed include policies and practices which are focused on reducing the number of victims when an active shooter incident happens by engaging the shooter as quickly as possible and not necessarily waiting for SWAT or other special units to arrive.
Dumbass.
in my experience as a person that has helped organize armed community defense for leftist events in the south, and run active shooter drills, this is correct, yeah
it's actually really difficult to engage with two people coordinating their fire, as a single shooter, even with hard cover, and a rifle isn't going to make a tremendous amount of difference at the ranges involved in a school
i don't really know what to say about the response to this shooting other than that i'm completely disgusted
the father that was ready to go in there unarmed had the right idea, obviously it's better to have a gun than not, but if you don't the thing to do is set up an ambush or wait for a reload, rush the shooter to get inside of and take control of their weapon arm
sitting around doesn't minimize damage in a spree shooting, just gives them more time to rack up body count
It sounds like a policy designed for a regular sort of crime, like maybe a guy has hostages and is threatening to shoot. Mass shooters need a different sort of strategy. Civilians tend to find that "rush him" works best, but of course some people will die. The police weren't willing to be one of those "some people"
Random unarmed citizens show more courage than this all the time, even people who are not trained to fight. Hell there are corporate trainings about fighting back if you get stuck in the office by an attacker.
These cops have a lower expectation to defend people than a file clerk.
I think our training suggested throwing staplers at the gunman?
The realest irony of the whole "the cops didn't do anything" is the simple fact that if you ask any teacher they would almost assuredly say they'd put their life between a bullet and their kids.
Cause that's what love, not gun-toting power fantasies, looks like.
- There was *not* a school officer on scene, despite initial reports
- The backdoor gunman used was unlocked
- It took an hour to take the gunman out after he entered
- Gunman shot at witnesses in the street before entering
Seen elsewhere:
Cops hide. Kids die.
According to that report, the local cops engaged the shooter inside the school and had to take cover from return fire. So more, "cops tried to stop the shooter but were outgunned, took cover and called in a tactical team" but that's tough to fit on a t shirt.
You mean the self-serving report from the very people whose performance we're infuriated over?
Let's review the (reported) performance of the Uvalde Police and CBP response team on Tuesday:
- Waited 35-60 minutes before entering school while kids bled out, wasting golden hour
- Tazed / arrested parents begging them to go in, and attempting to rescue their kids themselves
- When they did enter the school, they went to rescue their own kids first rather than deal with the shooter
- Proved incapable of opening a locked door to the room where the shooter was, so they had a school employee do it for them with a key
- Armed school resource officer failed to prevent shooter from entering school
- Uvalde SWAT team had done a walkthrough of the school in Feb to prepare for just such a situation
- Outside observers saying Uvalde police ignored every lesson learned since Columbine
- When the police did enter the classroom, they failed to neutralize the shooter first, and as a result another child died due to their incompetence
- Initially lied about the timeline
- Police is 40% of Uvalde's budget
I'm going to stick with the original.
Interesting take - I prefer the latest, most accurate official reporting on emerging events. Initial reports in events like these is almost always fallible. But I'm one of those crazy progressives that likes to reserve judgement until I get that facts of any given matter.
When the officials are the ones under criticism for their behavior, their reports are suspect at best.
That's the way of conspiracy and media illiteracy.
- There was *not* a school officer on scene, despite initial reports
- The backdoor gunman used was unlocked
- It took an hour to take the gunman out after he entered
- Gunman shot at witnesses in the street before entering
Seen elsewhere:
Cops hide. Kids die.
According to that report, the local cops engaged the shooter inside the school and had to take cover from return fire. So more, "cops tried to stop the shooter but were outgunned, took cover and called in a tactical team" but that's tough to fit on a t shirt.
Yeah, "cops hide, kids die" is an accurate way to describe that scenario.
You think that taking cover under overwhelming fire is "hiding"? What good does a bunch of dead cops do in that situation?
We'll never know because Blue Lives Matter (more than trying to save schoolchildren).
Please explain to me in detail how a small force of men with sidearms are supposed to engage with an unknown number of assailants welding assault rifle(s) in school interior effectively.
Y'all are fuckin loons for demanding that cops 'throw their bodies' between victims and shooters. That's so wildly, blatantly ineffective and stupid that I'm bewildered so many of you are latching on to it. You hate cops, I get it. But at least critique their usage and response in a manner grounded in reality.
You do know that this, very specifically, is the recommended tactic, recommended by the police and their trainers, in this kind of situation?
What, you think you know more about it than the cops you are trying to worship?
What
I know your just here trolling and don't care about your uninformed trolling comments, but Literally the police policy.
Changes discussed include policies and practices which are focused on reducing the number of victims when an active shooter incident happens by engaging the shooter as quickly as possible and not necessarily waiting for SWAT or other special units to arrive.
Dumbass.
in my experience as a person that has helped organize armed community defense for leftist events in the south, and run active shooter drills, this is correct, yeah
it's actually really difficult to engage with two people coordinating their fire, as a single shooter, even with hard cover, and a rifle isn't going to make a tremendous amount of difference at the ranges involved in a school
i don't really know what to say about the response to this shooting other than that i'm completely disgusted
the father that was ready to go in there unarmed had the right idea, obviously it's better to have a gun than not, but if you don't the thing to do is set up an ambush or wait for a reload, rush the shooter to get inside of and take control of their weapon arm
sitting around doesn't minimize damage in a spree shooting, just gives them more time to rack up body count
It sounds like a policy designed for a regular sort of crime, like maybe a guy has hostages and is threatening to shoot. Mass shooters need a different sort of strategy. Civilians tend to find that "rush him" works best, but of course some people will die. The police weren't willing to be one of those "some people"
I think you're misreading, because you, Giggles, and every organization post Columbine agrees that in the event of a mass shooting the best tactic for dealing with the shooter is aggression with basically the only concession being "well wait for a few seconds if he's actively aiming at you specifically". Pre-Columbine, the doctrine was to treat mass shooting events as hostage situations, but that's no longer the case.
- There was *not* a school officer on scene, despite initial reports
- The backdoor gunman used was unlocked
- It took an hour to take the gunman out after he entered
- Gunman shot at witnesses in the street before entering
Seen elsewhere:
Cops hide. Kids die.
According to that report, the local cops engaged the shooter inside the school and had to take cover from return fire. So more, "cops tried to stop the shooter but were outgunned, took cover and called in a tactical team" but that's tough to fit on a t shirt.
You mean the self-serving report from the very people whose performance we're infuriated over?
Let's review the (reported) performance of the Uvalde Police and CBP response team on Tuesday:
- Waited 35-60 minutes before entering school while kids bled out, wasting golden hour
- Tazed / arrested parents begging them to go in, and attempting to rescue their kids themselves
- When they did enter the school, they went to rescue their own kids first rather than deal with the shooter
- Proved incapable of opening a locked door to the room where the shooter was, so they had a school employee do it for them with a key
- Armed school resource officer failed to prevent shooter from entering school
- Uvalde SWAT team had done a walkthrough of the school in Feb to prepare for just such a situation
- Outside observers saying Uvalde police ignored every lesson learned since Columbine
- When the police did enter the classroom, they failed to neutralize the shooter first, and as a result another child died due to their incompetence
- Initially lied about the timeline
- Police is 40% of Uvalde's budget
I'm going to stick with the original.
Interesting take - I prefer the latest, most accurate official reporting on emerging events. Initial reports in events like these is almost always fallible. But I'm one of those crazy progressives that likes to reserve judgement until I get that facts of any given matter.
When the officials are the ones under criticism for their behavior, their reports are suspect at best.
That's the way of conspiracy and media illiteracy.
- There was *not* a school officer on scene, despite initial reports
- The backdoor gunman used was unlocked
- It took an hour to take the gunman out after he entered
- Gunman shot at witnesses in the street before entering
Seen elsewhere:
Cops hide. Kids die.
According to that report, the local cops engaged the shooter inside the school and had to take cover from return fire. So more, "cops tried to stop the shooter but were outgunned, took cover and called in a tactical team" but that's tough to fit on a t shirt.
Yeah, "cops hide, kids die" is an accurate way to describe that scenario.
You think that taking cover under overwhelming fire is "hiding"? What good does a bunch of dead cops do in that situation?
We'll never know because Blue Lives Matter (more than trying to save schoolchildren).
Please explain to me in detail how a small force of men with sidearms are supposed to engage with an unknown number of assailants welding assault rifle(s) in school interior effectively.
Y'all are fuckin loons for demanding that cops 'throw their bodies' between victims and shooters. That's so wildly, blatantly ineffective and stupid that I'm bewildered so many of you are latching on to it. You hate cops, I get it. But at least critique their usage and response in a manner grounded in reality.
You do know that this, very specifically, is the recommended tactic, recommended by the police and their trainers, in this kind of situation?
What, you think you know more about it than the cops you are trying to worship?
What
I know your just here trolling and don't care about your uninformed trolling comments, but Literally the police policy.
Changes discussed include policies and practices which are focused on reducing the number of victims when an active shooter incident happens by engaging the shooter as quickly as possible and not necessarily waiting for SWAT or other special units to arrive.
Dumbass.
in my experience as a person that has helped organize armed community defense for leftist events in the south, and run active shooter drills, this is correct, yeah
it's actually really difficult to engage with two people coordinating their fire, as a single shooter, even with hard cover, and a rifle isn't going to make a tremendous amount of difference at the ranges involved in a school
i don't really know what to say about the response to this shooting other than that i'm completely disgusted
the father that was ready to go in there unarmed had the right idea, obviously it's better to have a gun than not, but if you don't the thing to do is set up an ambush or wait for a reload, rush the shooter to get inside of and take control of their weapon arm
sitting around doesn't minimize damage in a spree shooting, just gives them more time to rack up body count
It sounds like a policy designed for a regular sort of crime, like maybe a guy has hostages and is threatening to shoot. Mass shooters need a different sort of strategy. Civilians tend to find that "rush him" works best, but of course some people will die. The police weren't willing to be one of those "some people"
Considering it's literally their job to be those "some people," the fact that they weren't is fucking pathetic and should cost all of them their jobs. If all their supposed training and military gear is only good for photo ops what's the point of them existing?
- There was *not* a school officer on scene, despite initial reports
- The backdoor gunman used was unlocked
- It took an hour to take the gunman out after he entered
- Gunman shot at witnesses in the street before entering
Seen elsewhere:
Cops hide. Kids die.
According to that report, the local cops engaged the shooter inside the school and had to take cover from return fire. So more, "cops tried to stop the shooter but were outgunned, took cover and called in a tactical team" but that's tough to fit on a t shirt.
You mean the self-serving report from the very people whose performance we're infuriated over?
Let's review the (reported) performance of the Uvalde Police and CBP response team on Tuesday:
- Waited 35-60 minutes before entering school while kids bled out, wasting golden hour
- Tazed / arrested parents begging them to go in, and attempting to rescue their kids themselves
- When they did enter the school, they went to rescue their own kids first rather than deal with the shooter
- Proved incapable of opening a locked door to the room where the shooter was, so they had a school employee do it for them with a key
- Armed school resource officer failed to prevent shooter from entering school
- Uvalde SWAT team had done a walkthrough of the school in Feb to prepare for just such a situation
- Outside observers saying Uvalde police ignored every lesson learned since Columbine
- When the police did enter the classroom, they failed to neutralize the shooter first, and as a result another child died due to their incompetence
- Initially lied about the timeline
- Police is 40% of Uvalde's budget
I'm going to stick with the original.
Interesting take - I prefer the latest, most accurate official reporting on emerging events. Initial reports in events like these is almost always fallible. But I'm one of those crazy progressives that likes to reserve judgement until I get that facts of any given matter.
When the officials are the ones under criticism for their behavior, their reports are suspect at best.
That's the way of conspiracy and media illiteracy.
- There was *not* a school officer on scene, despite initial reports
- The backdoor gunman used was unlocked
- It took an hour to take the gunman out after he entered
- Gunman shot at witnesses in the street before entering
Seen elsewhere:
Cops hide. Kids die.
According to that report, the local cops engaged the shooter inside the school and had to take cover from return fire. So more, "cops tried to stop the shooter but were outgunned, took cover and called in a tactical team" but that's tough to fit on a t shirt.
Yeah, "cops hide, kids die" is an accurate way to describe that scenario.
You think that taking cover under overwhelming fire is "hiding"? What good does a bunch of dead cops do in that situation?
We'll never know because Blue Lives Matter (more than trying to save schoolchildren).
Please explain to me in detail how a small force of men with sidearms are supposed to engage with an unknown number of assailants welding assault rifle(s) in school interior effectively.
Y'all are fuckin loons for demanding that cops 'throw their bodies' between victims and shooters. That's so wildly, blatantly ineffective and stupid that I'm bewildered so many of you are latching on to it. You hate cops, I get it. But at least critique their usage and response in a manner grounded in reality.
You do know that this, very specifically, is the recommended tactic, recommended by the police and their trainers, in this kind of situation?
What, you think you know more about it than the cops you are trying to worship?
What
I know your just here trolling and don't care about your uninformed trolling comments, but Literally the police policy.
Changes discussed include policies and practices which are focused on reducing the number of victims when an active shooter incident happens by engaging the shooter as quickly as possible and not necessarily waiting for SWAT or other special units to arrive.
Dumbass.
in my experience as a person that has helped organize armed community defense for leftist events in the south, and run active shooter drills, this is correct, yeah
it's actually really difficult to engage with two people coordinating their fire, as a single shooter, even with hard cover, and a rifle isn't going to make a tremendous amount of difference at the ranges involved in a school
i don't really know what to say about the response to this shooting other than that i'm completely disgusted
the father that was ready to go in there unarmed had the right idea, obviously it's better to have a gun than not, but if you don't the thing to do is set up an ambush or wait for a reload, rush the shooter to get inside of and take control of their weapon arm
sitting around doesn't minimize damage in a spree shooting, just gives them more time to rack up body count
It sounds like a policy designed for a regular sort of crime, like maybe a guy has hostages and is threatening to shoot. Mass shooters need a different sort of strategy. Civilians tend to find that "rush him" works best, but of course some people will die. The police weren't willing to be one of those "some people"
Considering it's literally their job to be those "some people," the fact that they weren't is fucking pathetic and should cost all of them their jobs. If all their supposed training and military gear is only good for photo ops what's the point of them existing?
They have a policy of always protecting their own lives first. Which can make sense if you want to stop people doing stupid stuff like getting shot rushing in trying to stop a minor crime without waiting for backup, but doesn't make sense when little kids lives are on the line.
- There was *not* a school officer on scene, despite initial reports
- The backdoor gunman used was unlocked
- It took an hour to take the gunman out after he entered
- Gunman shot at witnesses in the street before entering
Seen elsewhere:
Cops hide. Kids die.
According to that report, the local cops engaged the shooter inside the school and had to take cover from return fire. So more, "cops tried to stop the shooter but were outgunned, took cover and called in a tactical team" but that's tough to fit on a t shirt.
You mean the self-serving report from the very people whose performance we're infuriated over?
Let's review the (reported) performance of the Uvalde Police and CBP response team on Tuesday:
- Waited 35-60 minutes before entering school while kids bled out, wasting golden hour
- Tazed / arrested parents begging them to go in, and attempting to rescue their kids themselves
- When they did enter the school, they went to rescue their own kids first rather than deal with the shooter
- Proved incapable of opening a locked door to the room where the shooter was, so they had a school employee do it for them with a key
- Armed school resource officer failed to prevent shooter from entering school
- Uvalde SWAT team had done a walkthrough of the school in Feb to prepare for just such a situation
- Outside observers saying Uvalde police ignored every lesson learned since Columbine
- When the police did enter the classroom, they failed to neutralize the shooter first, and as a result another child died due to their incompetence
- Initially lied about the timeline
- Police is 40% of Uvalde's budget
I'm going to stick with the original.
Interesting take - I prefer the latest, most accurate official reporting on emerging events. Initial reports in events like these is almost always fallible. But I'm one of those crazy progressives that likes to reserve judgement until I get that facts of any given matter.
When the officials are the ones under criticism for their behavior, their reports are suspect at best.
That's the way of conspiracy and media illiteracy.
- There was *not* a school officer on scene, despite initial reports
- The backdoor gunman used was unlocked
- It took an hour to take the gunman out after he entered
- Gunman shot at witnesses in the street before entering
Seen elsewhere:
Cops hide. Kids die.
According to that report, the local cops engaged the shooter inside the school and had to take cover from return fire. So more, "cops tried to stop the shooter but were outgunned, took cover and called in a tactical team" but that's tough to fit on a t shirt.
Yeah, "cops hide, kids die" is an accurate way to describe that scenario.
You think that taking cover under overwhelming fire is "hiding"? What good does a bunch of dead cops do in that situation?
We'll never know because Blue Lives Matter (more than trying to save schoolchildren).
Please explain to me in detail how a small force of men with sidearms are supposed to engage with an unknown number of assailants welding assault rifle(s) in school interior effectively.
Y'all are fuckin loons for demanding that cops 'throw their bodies' between victims and shooters. That's so wildly, blatantly ineffective and stupid that I'm bewildered so many of you are latching on to it. You hate cops, I get it. But at least critique their usage and response in a manner grounded in reality.
You do know that this, very specifically, is the recommended tactic, recommended by the police and their trainers, in this kind of situation?
What, you think you know more about it than the cops you are trying to worship?
What
I know your just here trolling and don't care about your uninformed trolling comments, but Literally the police policy.
Changes discussed include policies and practices which are focused on reducing the number of victims when an active shooter incident happens by engaging the shooter as quickly as possible and not necessarily waiting for SWAT or other special units to arrive.
Dumbass.
in my experience as a person that has helped organize armed community defense for leftist events in the south, and run active shooter drills, this is correct, yeah
it's actually really difficult to engage with two people coordinating their fire, as a single shooter, even with hard cover, and a rifle isn't going to make a tremendous amount of difference at the ranges involved in a school
i don't really know what to say about the response to this shooting other than that i'm completely disgusted
the father that was ready to go in there unarmed had the right idea, obviously it's better to have a gun than not, but if you don't the thing to do is set up an ambush or wait for a reload, rush the shooter to get inside of and take control of their weapon arm
sitting around doesn't minimize damage in a spree shooting, just gives them more time to rack up body count
It sounds like a policy designed for a regular sort of crime, like maybe a guy has hostages and is threatening to shoot. Mass shooters need a different sort of strategy. Civilians tend to find that "rush him" works best, but of course some people will die. The police weren't willing to be one of those "some people"
Considering it's literally their job to be those "some people," the fact that they weren't is fucking pathetic and should cost all of them their jobs. If all their supposed training and military gear is only good for photo ops what's the point of them existing?
They have a policy of always protecting their own lives first. Which can make sense if you want to stop people doing stupid stuff like getting shot rushing in trying to stop a minor crime without waiting for backup, but doesn't make sense when little kids lives are on the line.
Unless it's not wearing camo tactical during a night traffic stop, taking a COVID vaccine, etc..
you can train someone to shoot or whatever else, but you'll pretty much only ever know whether they'll end up protecting someone over their own safety in a life or death situation when a situation like that comes.
BUT cops in the US don't even feel like they're trained to protect anyone but themselves. All "civilians" are possible ways for a cop to die in their mind, not someone to protect.
So you of course end up with an even lower percentage of cops who are ready to put their life on the line.
I still don't get it with children. Protecting
their children is literally a drive built into basically every species on this planet at a very, very basic level.
How can you stand around for almost an hour as supposedly trained individual knowing children's lifes are in danger? How?
You would think any reasonable police hiring/training program would weed out the kind of person who is unwilling or unable to engage an active school shooter since police are supposed to do exactly that. “Protect and serve” and all. Perhaps procedure and training needs to be revised.
What’s that? Cops lied about what they did and are getting defensive when called on it? Ah. That changes things. That indicates that this was not a failure of policing, but of deliberate action by a group who’s primary goal is attainment and preservation of their own power and institution.
To put it another way, abandoning children to die and handcuffing the panicking parents is all according to plan for these cops, and no amount of training can change that.
- There was *not* a school officer on scene, despite initial reports
- The backdoor gunman used was unlocked
- It took an hour to take the gunman out after he entered
- Gunman shot at witnesses in the street before entering
Seen elsewhere:
Cops hide. Kids die.
According to that report, the local cops engaged the shooter inside the school and had to take cover from return fire. So more, "cops tried to stop the shooter but were outgunned, took cover and called in a tactical team" but that's tough to fit on a t shirt.
Yeah, "cops hide, kids die" is an accurate way to describe that scenario.
You think that taking cover under overwhelming fire is "hiding"? What good does a bunch of dead cops do in that situation?
Better chance of an improved outcome than armed teachers or Kevlar backpacks.
I get it though. Not in their job description. Then maybe they should stop dressing like SEAL Team Six if all they’re gonna do with that tac gear is hold back the families of the kids being slaughtered. Maybe stop posing in tac gear like they’re fucking badasses. Maybe scrape those punisher skulls off their POVs, because they’re aren’t heroes, or antiheroes, or anything worthy of note. They’re janitors and bullies with guns and qualified immunity. And cowards.
I guess I just disagree with your wild assessment that this situation would have been improved by a pile of dead cops.
You can literally watch their actions on video. We aren’t speculating, you can watch the assholes get these kids killed while bullying the parents right now.
You have video of the cops engaging the shooter inside the school? Please share! Or do you think that the cops outside maintaining the perimeter of the active shooter situation were the only police on scene?
I don’t think dead cops improves the situation per se, but it’s something I expect to see if cops want to pretend to be any sort of heroes or protectors of the public. It would indicate they tried.
Like I said before, they have the choice to not place their lives on the line here. But then fuck every single Blue Line flag forever, because they are a “line” between fuck all and nothing. They are janitors and bullies, and paid well for it.
The blue line has always been an internal code word for the line between themselves and consequences.
- There was *not* a school officer on scene, despite initial reports
- The backdoor gunman used was unlocked
- It took an hour to take the gunman out after he entered
- Gunman shot at witnesses in the street before entering
Seen elsewhere:
Cops hide. Kids die.
According to that report, the local cops engaged the shooter inside the school and had to take cover from return fire. So more, "cops tried to stop the shooter but were outgunned, took cover and called in a tactical team" but that's tough to fit on a t shirt.
You mean the self-serving report from the very people whose performance we're infuriated over?
Let's review the (reported) performance of the Uvalde Police and CBP response team on Tuesday:
- Waited 35-60 minutes before entering school while kids bled out, wasting golden hour
- Tazed / arrested parents begging them to go in, and attempting to rescue their kids themselves
- When they did enter the school, they went to rescue their own kids first rather than deal with the shooter
- Proved incapable of opening a locked door to the room where the shooter was, so they had a school employee do it for them with a key
- Armed school resource officer failed to prevent shooter from entering school
- Uvalde SWAT team had done a walkthrough of the school in Feb to prepare for just such a situation
- Outside observers saying Uvalde police ignored every lesson learned since Columbine
- When the police did enter the classroom, they failed to neutralize the shooter first, and as a result another child died due to their incompetence
- Initially lied about the timeline
- Police is 40% of Uvalde's budget
I'm going to stick with the original.
Interesting take - I prefer the latest, most accurate official reporting on emerging events. Initial reports in events like these is almost always fallible. But I'm one of those crazy progressives that likes to reserve judgement until I get that facts of any given matter.
When the officials are the ones under criticism for their behavior, their reports are suspect at best.
That's the way of conspiracy and media illiteracy.
- There was *not* a school officer on scene, despite initial reports
- The backdoor gunman used was unlocked
- It took an hour to take the gunman out after he entered
- Gunman shot at witnesses in the street before entering
Seen elsewhere:
Cops hide. Kids die.
According to that report, the local cops engaged the shooter inside the school and had to take cover from return fire. So more, "cops tried to stop the shooter but were outgunned, took cover and called in a tactical team" but that's tough to fit on a t shirt.
Yeah, "cops hide, kids die" is an accurate way to describe that scenario.
You think that taking cover under overwhelming fire is "hiding"? What good does a bunch of dead cops do in that situation?
We'll never know because Blue Lives Matter (more than trying to save schoolchildren).
Please explain to me in detail how a small force of men with sidearms are supposed to engage with an unknown number of assailants welding assault rifle(s) in school interior effectively.
Y'all are fuckin loons for demanding that cops 'throw their bodies' between victims and shooters. That's so wildly, blatantly ineffective and stupid that I'm bewildered so many of you are latching on to it. You hate cops, I get it. But at least critique their usage and response in a manner grounded in reality.
The cops that were outside pointing guns and tasers at parents had rifles and body armor.
I do not blame the police as people for being afraid of guns. I would be afraid of an armed gunman. I do not know if I could summon the courage to assault a building where one was known to be to save other peoples children. Guns are terrifying murder machines which can kill you in fractions of a second without warning.
But, this is why I did not become a policeman. And, if I HAD become a policeman I would advocate for strict and comprehensive gun control.
I do not blame the police as people for being afraid of guns. I would be afraid of an armed gunman. I do not know if I could summon the courage to assault a building where one was known to be to save other peoples children. Guns are terrifying murder machines which can kill you in fractions of a second without warning.
But, this is why I did not become a policeman. And, if I HAD become a policeman I would advocate for strict and comprehensive gun control.
Most police unions used to be pro gun control because it made their lives safer and their jobs easier.
But then they decided it'd be more fun to just kill people, and that would be less appropriate if gun control was stronger
I do not blame the police as people for being afraid of guns. I would be afraid of an armed gunman. I do not know if I could summon the courage to assault a building where one was known to be to save other peoples children. Guns are terrifying murder machines which can kill you in fractions of a second without warning.
But, this is why I did not become a policeman. And, if I HAD become a policeman I would advocate for strict and comprehensive gun control.
Most police unions used to be pro gun control because it made their lives safer and their jobs easier.
But then they decided it'd be more fun to just kill people, and that would be less appropriate if gun control was stronger
Well it's more they just became openly Republican.
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
This whole thing is a microcosm of why the US is a shithole.
-Only thing we're exceptional at in the developed world is gun violence and lots of people dying to perfectly preventable causes, but that is avoided because it'll lower the bottom line for some piece of shit parasite.
-That are police of super shitty. Not only do we piss away to much money on them, but they are fucking useless. I dread to think how many more kids would have been killed if either of the following were true: the gunman realizing the cops were going to dick around and thus having more time to murder more people or if a cop didn't have a kid in that school, would they police have even bothered. We also see the cops turning to their favorite pass time of brutalizing the community they are suppose to serve, instead doing the job they claim to be theirs. Like an officer refusing to confront and armed gunman murdering children because they might get shot, would be like a modern US service member refusing to go into combat because bad shit might happen. Sadly in this shithole of a country, the former can weasel their way out of not doing their job, while the former would face immediate court marshal. I really wish so much of the public wasn't willing to give the cops a benefit of a doubt because they are fucking trash, but we're in a democracy and defund the police won't work well, when most of the public is convinced that the cops are a good investment.
-Gun are way too fucking easy to get ahold of. I'm sorry, but it should be impossible for someone without a current gun license to legally have one. That the whole "I'll be the good guy with the gun that stops the bad guy with a gun," should be faced with derision because there should be far less fucking gun violence. Part of which is that if someone legally has a gun, it should be really fucking hard for anyone they know to easily access that gun because it's in a secure gun safe, unloaded nd the ammo is kept in some other secure area. Like guns should be scarce enough that a bat under the bed will be plenty enough for home defense against an intruder.
-Conservative disdain for schools. They don't want schools to be safe because they don't want an educated population. They don't want their kids exposed to differing opinions that call their shitty racist, racist, bigoted and theocratic worldviews out for what they are. You also have a bunch of rich assholes that only want their children to be educated. That's the whole thing not being said when they mention armed teachers or Fox's horseshit about "find less shootable schools," because with that mentality the only people that would be able to send their kids to school would be the ones that can afford a private school that hires armed security and maintains a strict defense perimeter around the school.
-The right using mental health and minorities as scapegoats. They don't want to admit there is nothing good about America's exceptionalism because it doesn't make us exceptionally good at anything, just really fucking bad in many areas. So blame some marginalized groups, instead of admitting that our nation is really a shithole because we refuse to address certain issues.
-How bullshit money is in our political system. Yeah, we have gun nut politicians that always think more guns is better. We also have a number of corrupt politicians that back more guns because gun manufacturers donate shit tons of money to them and they are willing to fuck the public over for those donations. Fuck CU, campaigns should be publicly financed so that the NRA has less way over politicians. Id' also argue that any organization that is politically advocating for an industry, like the NRA, shouldn't be allowed to be a non-profit.
-That the right continues to perpetuate tons of fucking issues and then waste money on solutions that do fuck all. We've discussed in the past how ludicrous police budgets are, where most localities either have the police force as the first or second largest expenditure of their funds. We know Uvalde was pissing 40% of their budget away on a useless ass police department. How much of those funds would have been better spend on services or infrastructure that would have been worth a damn. Hell, how much money are we pissing away on cops and not making gun laws stricter, that could have been spend on infrastructure improvements, make healthcare more accessible, addressing poverty, invest in education, invest in projects to make low income homes more affordable and many other things.
Finally, we see that the right has no fucking claim to pro-life. They are all too willing to prevent women from having control over their bodies because they see a fetus as a tool to control women. They don't give a flying fuck about life because if thy did, they wouldn't be so fucking beholden to an industry that creates tools for murder and then gleefully sacrificing children so they can continue to get donations from the gun lobby.
Might as well defund police if all the money ends up doing is making them look tacticool while they murder people during no-knock raids or traffic stops or safety checks or while eating candy or while sitting in their yard or, or, or, or ad nfinitum while they act like cowards during the one time they were supposed to actually do something with all their gear.
Leftist southerner Beau of the Fifth Column has a good video about this
Paraphrased
"If you are an officer in a situation like that, the only acceptable action is to press. You press, you keep them engaged until there is no longer a threat. You keep them engaged. Yeah they may shoot at you, they may hit you, but every shot at you is a shot that isn't at those kids... you know that warrior cop thing, it's become a thing, but it's just clothes, it's just gear."
you can train someone to shoot or whatever else, but you'll pretty much only ever know whether they'll end up protecting someone over their own safety in a life or death situation when a situation like that comes.
BUT cops in the US don't even feel like they're trained to protect anyone but themselves. All "civilians" are possible ways for a cop to die in their mind, not someone to protect.
So you of course end up with an even lower percentage of cops who are ready to put their life on the line.
I still don't get it with children. Protecting
their children is literally a drive built into basically every species on this planet at a very, very basic level.
How can you stand around for almost an hour as supposedly trained individual knowing children's lifes are in danger? How?
Abstraction, I suppose. That primal drive to protect doesn't tend to kick in unless you can see or hear a child in danger. (Or, that's my experience as a childfree person who is generally uncomfortable around kids, anyway. Obviously I don't ever want children to suffer or be hurt, but 1) I still have the protect-the-young!! instinct, apparently, and 2) it doesn't kick in unless there is a child in distress literally right in front of me.)
I do not blame the police as people for being afraid of guns. I would be afraid of an armed gunman. I do not know if I could summon the courage to assault a building where one was known to be to save other peoples children. Guns are terrifying murder machines which can kill you in fractions of a second without warning.
But, this is why I did not become a policeman. And, if I HAD become a policeman I would advocate for strict and comprehensive gun control.
Cops have no compunction with drawing on and shooting people they think might have a gun.
I do not blame the police as people for being afraid of guns. I would be afraid of an armed gunman. I do not know if I could summon the courage to assault a building where one was known to be to save other peoples children. Guns are terrifying murder machines which can kill you in fractions of a second without warning.
But, this is why I did not become a policeman. And, if I HAD become a policeman I would advocate for strict and comprehensive gun control.
Most police unions used to be pro gun control because it made their lives safer and their jobs easier.
But then they decided it'd be more fun to just kill people, and that would be less appropriate if gun control was stronger
Yeah cops have no problem shooting someone they (later claim to have) perceived as being armed, because they felt they were "in imminent danger."
But that's only when they are the ones "in imminent danger." The cops have literally gone to court to argue, successfully, that they don't have a duty to protect you if they fear for their own lives.
Reading from the ALERRT pdf database and my god they fucked it up so bad. So extremely badly, compared to what they're supposed to do.
https://alerrt.org/reading have a look at The Evolution of Active Shooter Response Training Protocols.... based on what we know right now, they did literally everything we know will cause a lot of civilian death.
+7
Options
jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
Reading from the ALERRT pdf database and my god they fucked it up so bad. So extremely badly, compared to what they're supposed to do.
https://alerrt.org/reading have a look at The Evolution of Active Shooter Response Training Protocols.... based on what we know right now, they did literally everything we know will cause a lot of civilian death.
Of course they did.
Because they didn't get the job to protect people.
I agree with Beau's point above, the gear is just dress up for these assholes, they have it to feel like big strong men, they certainly didn't use any of it to save those teachers or those kids. And what's worse is I'm sure if you gave people off the street that shit and said "kids are in danger" they'd be more likely to have rushed in there.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Posts
If the police, who absolutely did have this shooter outgunned, cannot be expected to follow this doctrine, then police inaction will cause more deaths. The police in this situation were either trained poorly, because they genuinely believed their response was correct, or they were cowards, because they were more concerned with self preservation than with doing what they should have.
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
Well, now even that fucking illusion is gone.
That's the logical followup, yeah. If you cannot actually trust police to follow the doctrinal response when it becomes dangerous to them, then police having ready access to firearms starts to look less like a necessary tool for the protection of society and more like a massive liability.
just to be super clear about this:
Instead of that, they did exactly the Columbine thing, a thing that over 20 years ago was seen as ineffective
The police response to this fucked up, there is no argument about this. They did exactly the opposite of what you are supposed to do if you are a responder in these situations.
Here's the fucking thing,
People on Team Gun are making sounds shaped like logic but it's just an opening to go
And if you're not, perhaps this will help someone else instead:
https://www.theiacp.org/sites/default/files/2018-08/ActiveShooterPaper2018.pdf
This is a policy paper from the International Association of Chiefs of Police. It reads in part:
Too global for you? Don't worry, here's the goddamned fucking FBI:
https://www.fbi.gov/about/partnerships/office-of-partner-engagement/active-shooter-resources
Their national protocol is called ALERRT and it was developed in... and you can't make this fucking shit up... in Texas, in conjunction with Texas law enforcement, at UT Austin like 3 hours drive from Uvalde.
Here's the ALERRT course catalog, which you can see has as the Level 1 training "get in there and fucking engage with the shooter"
https://alerrt.org/Course-Catalog
So, yes, the thing you're mocking and saying is looney turns out to be the actual and specific training they should have followed. And simultaneously it turns out that in this case you don't what the fuck you're talking about, at all.
So all that remains with this little tangent I think is to find out whether you'll take the L or just go "I still think I'm right" aka Cheer for Team Gun No Matter What.
3DS: 0473-8507-2652
Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
PSN: AbEntropy
Whatever. It doesn't matter
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Excellent effort, though!
One Billion Percent This.
America: 367 Deaths since 1999. Population 329 million. Per capita: 11 in 10 million (I think i did per capita correctly here, number of deaths divided by population then times 10 million to get a real number to compare for reasons that will be obvious in the next sentence)
Europe (all of Europe, the continent of Europe): 124 Deaths since 1994. Per capita: 1 in 10 million
In a longer time span (and I chose 1994 for Europe because that included one of the biggest incidents in the UK), there have been a third less total deaths, and with over double the population.
Simply atrocious. Literally ghastly.
We also have confirmation that the police, while standing around outside not trying to save the students, were keeping busy handcuffing and pepper-spraying parents who were justifiably angry that the cops weren't doing anything. Including one woman who, when the handcuffs were removed from her, was able to jump the fence and get inside the building to escort her children to safety.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
in my experience as a person that has helped organize armed community defense for leftist events in the south, and run active shooter drills, this is correct, yeah
it's actually really difficult to engage with two people coordinating their fire, as a single shooter, even with hard cover, and a rifle isn't going to make a tremendous amount of difference at the ranges involved in a school
i don't really know what to say about the response to this shooting other than that i'm completely disgusted
the father that was ready to go in there unarmed had the right idea, obviously it's better to have a gun than not, but if you don't the thing to do is set up an ambush or wait for a reload, rush the shooter to get inside of and take control of their weapon arm
sitting around doesn't minimize damage in a spree shooting, just gives them more time to rack up body count
These cops have a lower expectation to defend people than a file clerk.
It sounds like a policy designed for a regular sort of crime, like maybe a guy has hostages and is threatening to shoot. Mass shooters need a different sort of strategy. Civilians tend to find that "rush him" works best, but of course some people will die. The police weren't willing to be one of those "some people"
I think our training suggested throwing staplers at the gunman?
I didn't really pay attention to it
Cause that's what love, not gun-toting power fantasies, looks like.
I think you're misreading, because you, Giggles, and every organization post Columbine agrees that in the event of a mass shooting the best tactic for dealing with the shooter is aggression with basically the only concession being "well wait for a few seconds if he's actively aiming at you specifically". Pre-Columbine, the doctrine was to treat mass shooting events as hostage situations, but that's no longer the case.
Considering it's literally their job to be those "some people," the fact that they weren't is fucking pathetic and should cost all of them their jobs. If all their supposed training and military gear is only good for photo ops what's the point of them existing?
They have a policy of always protecting their own lives first. Which can make sense if you want to stop people doing stupid stuff like getting shot rushing in trying to stop a minor crime without waiting for backup, but doesn't make sense when little kids lives are on the line.
Unless it's not wearing camo tactical during a night traffic stop, taking a COVID vaccine, etc..
BUT cops in the US don't even feel like they're trained to protect anyone but themselves. All "civilians" are possible ways for a cop to die in their mind, not someone to protect.
So you of course end up with an even lower percentage of cops who are ready to put their life on the line.
I still don't get it with children. Protecting
their children is literally a drive built into basically every species on this planet at a very, very basic level.
How can you stand around for almost an hour as supposedly trained individual knowing children's lifes are in danger? How?
What’s that? Cops lied about what they did and are getting defensive when called on it? Ah. That changes things. That indicates that this was not a failure of policing, but of deliberate action by a group who’s primary goal is attainment and preservation of their own power and institution.
To put it another way, abandoning children to die and handcuffing the panicking parents is all according to plan for these cops, and no amount of training can change that.
The blue line has always been an internal code word for the line between themselves and consequences.
The cops that were outside pointing guns and tasers at parents had rifles and body armor.
But, this is why I did not become a policeman. And, if I HAD become a policeman I would advocate for strict and comprehensive gun control.
Most police unions used to be pro gun control because it made their lives safer and their jobs easier.
But then they decided it'd be more fun to just kill people, and that would be less appropriate if gun control was stronger
Well it's more they just became openly Republican.
Nah, only 52 of them.
-Only thing we're exceptional at in the developed world is gun violence and lots of people dying to perfectly preventable causes, but that is avoided because it'll lower the bottom line for some piece of shit parasite.
-That are police of super shitty. Not only do we piss away to much money on them, but they are fucking useless. I dread to think how many more kids would have been killed if either of the following were true: the gunman realizing the cops were going to dick around and thus having more time to murder more people or if a cop didn't have a kid in that school, would they police have even bothered. We also see the cops turning to their favorite pass time of brutalizing the community they are suppose to serve, instead doing the job they claim to be theirs. Like an officer refusing to confront and armed gunman murdering children because they might get shot, would be like a modern US service member refusing to go into combat because bad shit might happen. Sadly in this shithole of a country, the former can weasel their way out of not doing their job, while the former would face immediate court marshal. I really wish so much of the public wasn't willing to give the cops a benefit of a doubt because they are fucking trash, but we're in a democracy and defund the police won't work well, when most of the public is convinced that the cops are a good investment.
-Gun are way too fucking easy to get ahold of. I'm sorry, but it should be impossible for someone without a current gun license to legally have one. That the whole "I'll be the good guy with the gun that stops the bad guy with a gun," should be faced with derision because there should be far less fucking gun violence. Part of which is that if someone legally has a gun, it should be really fucking hard for anyone they know to easily access that gun because it's in a secure gun safe, unloaded nd the ammo is kept in some other secure area. Like guns should be scarce enough that a bat under the bed will be plenty enough for home defense against an intruder.
-Conservative disdain for schools. They don't want schools to be safe because they don't want an educated population. They don't want their kids exposed to differing opinions that call their shitty racist, racist, bigoted and theocratic worldviews out for what they are. You also have a bunch of rich assholes that only want their children to be educated. That's the whole thing not being said when they mention armed teachers or Fox's horseshit about "find less shootable schools," because with that mentality the only people that would be able to send their kids to school would be the ones that can afford a private school that hires armed security and maintains a strict defense perimeter around the school.
-The right using mental health and minorities as scapegoats. They don't want to admit there is nothing good about America's exceptionalism because it doesn't make us exceptionally good at anything, just really fucking bad in many areas. So blame some marginalized groups, instead of admitting that our nation is really a shithole because we refuse to address certain issues.
-How bullshit money is in our political system. Yeah, we have gun nut politicians that always think more guns is better. We also have a number of corrupt politicians that back more guns because gun manufacturers donate shit tons of money to them and they are willing to fuck the public over for those donations. Fuck CU, campaigns should be publicly financed so that the NRA has less way over politicians. Id' also argue that any organization that is politically advocating for an industry, like the NRA, shouldn't be allowed to be a non-profit.
-That the right continues to perpetuate tons of fucking issues and then waste money on solutions that do fuck all. We've discussed in the past how ludicrous police budgets are, where most localities either have the police force as the first or second largest expenditure of their funds. We know Uvalde was pissing 40% of their budget away on a useless ass police department. How much of those funds would have been better spend on services or infrastructure that would have been worth a damn. Hell, how much money are we pissing away on cops and not making gun laws stricter, that could have been spend on infrastructure improvements, make healthcare more accessible, addressing poverty, invest in education, invest in projects to make low income homes more affordable and many other things.
Finally, we see that the right has no fucking claim to pro-life. They are all too willing to prevent women from having control over their bodies because they see a fetus as a tool to control women. They don't give a flying fuck about life because if thy did, they wouldn't be so fucking beholden to an industry that creates tools for murder and then gleefully sacrificing children so they can continue to get donations from the gun lobby.
battletag: Millin#1360
Nice chart to figure out how honest a news source is.
Leftist southerner Beau of the Fifth Column has a good video about this
Paraphrased
"If you are an officer in a situation like that, the only acceptable action is to press. You press, you keep them engaged until there is no longer a threat. You keep them engaged. Yeah they may shoot at you, they may hit you, but every shot at you is a shot that isn't at those kids... you know that warrior cop thing, it's become a thing, but it's just clothes, it's just gear."
I agree with 100% of this and Spool's take
Abstraction, I suppose. That primal drive to protect doesn't tend to kick in unless you can see or hear a child in danger. (Or, that's my experience as a childfree person who is generally uncomfortable around kids, anyway. Obviously I don't ever want children to suffer or be hurt, but 1) I still have the protect-the-young!! instinct, apparently, and 2) it doesn't kick in unless there is a child in distress literally right in front of me.)
Cops have no compunction with drawing on and shooting people they think might have a gun.
Yeah cops have no problem shooting someone they (later claim to have) perceived as being armed, because they felt they were "in imminent danger."
But that's only when they are the ones "in imminent danger." The cops have literally gone to court to argue, successfully, that they don't have a duty to protect you if they fear for their own lives.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
https://alerrt.org/reading have a look at The Evolution of Active Shooter Response Training Protocols.... based on what we know right now, they did literally everything we know will cause a lot of civilian death.
Of course they did.
Because they didn't get the job to protect people.
pleasepaypreacher.net