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Uvalde Shooting: 19 elementary school children dead, 2 adults

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Posts

  • KetBraKetBra Dressed Ridiculously Registered User regular
    DPS chief Steven McGraw: “We haven’t gotten into the why [motive]. We know the individual was also into cyber gaming in that regard, and group gaming.”
    Andrew Kimmel is a former Buzzfeed news person

    KGMvDLc.jpg?1
    ElvenshaeMartini_PhilosophershrykeThegreatcowPreacherdurandal4532ToxFencingsaxdispatch.ochrono_travellerBigPointyTeethMatevShadowfireAegeriLord_AsmodeusGnome-InterruptusHavelock2.0Dark Raven XmarajiMan in the MistsNitsuaFoolOnTheHill
  • OneAngryPossumOneAngryPossum Registered User regular
    edited May 27
    I’m glad to see some of y’all out of the “numb to this” feeling

    We should never accept this as something that “just happens sometimes”

    These kids deserved better

    I have moved firmly into ‘end the second amendment within my lifetime’ territory. It’s a fantasy, but I’m sick of letting idiots and cultists define this argument. Every day we keep the second amendment, we are choosing a sad power fantasy over innocent lives.

    In short- and medium-term fantasy land, a buyback/amnesty period followed by intense penalties for possession. Any access to a firearm requires a lengthy training course, background and mental health screening, proof of safe storage capacity, regular checks of your home to verify storage practices, multiple current references updated annually, and the notarized signature of everybody you have lived with or been in a significant relationship with for the past few years. You want to own any gun, you better be on your best behavior for a long fucking time. And that gets you a single-shot rifle or shotgun, no handguns, nothing semi-automatic.

    The FBI can follow the record industry’s lead from the 90s and leak bad 3D prints of ghost guns that overheat and destroy your printer. Bonus points if they can devise a mechanism that results in near-permanent resin stains on the attempted user.

    I just don’t care about these people or trying to convince them any more. The only thing they fear is losing their fucking guns, so fuck it, take them. They can’t get worse than 40,000 dead a year, and the world can’t be better until they’ve been disarmed. Make it the police’s primary job for the next couple decades to seize and destroy guns, with constant federal oversight.

    There will be blowback, because these people worship death, but you’d need a hell of a lot of blowback for it to compare to the losses every day of our current situation brings.

    Edit: I’m sure there are a hundred flaws to every step in this, even beyond the sheer fantasy of it being feasible at all. Thankfully the bar for success is low enough to functionally not exist.

    OneAngryPossum on
  • ElvenshaeElvenshae Registered User regular
    The shooter reportedly had a pair of Daniel Defense AR-15 weapons, which he used to murder almost two dozen people.

    This is an ad that Daniel Defense ran on their Twitter account roughly a week ago. (Spoiled for being absolutely fucked up.)
    iwnhr40d7xfg.png

    Screencap of a tweet by USA Singers (whatever) but news articles detailing it are available from The Guardian, Washington Post, etc.

    This is Daniel Defense's current Twitter account page:
    cvtjqjk1j7pi.png

    https://twitter.com/DanielDefense

    ... because they are fuckshit cowardly ass motherfucking accessories to murder.

    BlackDragon480joshofalltradesStabbity StyleNobodymrpakuA Kobold's KoboldFencingsaxRhesus Positivechrono_travellerMatevShadowfireAegeriboogedybooDark Raven XmonikerMan in the MistsBullhead
  • klemmingklemming Registered User regular
    KetBra wrote: »
    DPS chief Steven McGraw: “We haven’t gotten into the why [motive]. We know the individual was also into cyber gaming in that regard, and group gaming.”
    Andrew Kimmel is a former Buzzfeed news person
    Cyber gaming, that well known-refuge of the criminally insane.

    Nobody remembers the singer. The song remains.
    ElvenshaeBlackDragon480Captain InertiaStabbity StyleMartini_PhilosopherCentipede DamascusNobodyshrykeNobeardPreachermrpakuAegisA Kobold's KoboldFencingsaxdispatch.oRhesus Positiveoverride367chrono_travellerKayne Red Robespool32AbsoluteZeroMatevShadowfireMillAegeriLord_AsmodeusGnome-InterruptusRingoelectricitylikesmeHavelock2.0Mr RayDark Raven XTicaldfjamSolarmarajiSmrtnikmonikerCalicaKristmas KthulhuMan in the MistsNitsuaBullhead
  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    I’m glad to see some of y’all out of the “numb to this” feeling

    We should never accept this as something that “just happens sometimes”

    These kids deserved better

    I have moved firmly into ‘end the second amendment within my lifetime’ territory. It’s a fantasy, but I’m sick of letting idiots and cultists define this argument. Every day we keep the second amendment, we are choosing a sad power fantasy over innocent lives.

    In short- and medium-term fantasy land, a buyback/amnesty period followed by intense penalties for possession. Any access to a firearm requires a lengthy training course, background and mental health screening, proof of safe storage capacity, regular checks of your home to verify storage practices, multiple current references updated annually, and the notarized signature of everybody you have lived with or been in a significant relationship with for the past few years. You want to own any gun, you better be on your best behavior for a long fucking time. And that gets you a single-shot rifle or shotgun, no handguns, nothing semi-automatic.

    The FBI can follow the record industry’s lead from the 90s and leak bad 3D prints of ghost guns that overheat and destroy your printer. Bonus points if they can devise a mechanism that results in near-permanent resin stains on the attempted user.

    I just don’t care about these people or trying to convince them any more. The only thing they fear is losing their fucking guns, so fuck it, take them. They can’t get worse than 40,000 dead a year, and the world can’t be better until they’ve been disarmed. Make it the police’s primary job for the next couple decades to seize and destroy guns, with constant federal oversight.

    There will be blowback, because these people worship death, but you’d need a hell of a lot of blowback for it to compare to the losses every day of our current situation brings.

    Edit: I’m sure there are a hundred flaws to every step in this, even beyond the sheer fantasy of it being feasible at all. Thankfully the bar for success is low enough to functionally not exist.

    People thought the same thing about cigarettes, but the way to make this happen is actually fairly simple, if there is any political will at all to make it happen.

    You systematically dismantle the mystique around the thing. When it isn't cool anymore, when every gun owner that doesn't need their firearm for subsistence hunting, when every dumbass that says they need it for home defense looks like what they really are (sociopaths), they start to feel like losers.

    When they feel like losers, you offer to buy the thing from them. Suddenly they're winners again, because they got rid of the thing that was making them uncool and unpopular and they got some money for it.

    The problem here is step 1, because our politicians can be (and are) bribed to not do even the most simple things to fix the problem.

    OneAngryPossumFencingsaxspool32Gnome-InterruptuselectricitylikesmeKristmas KthulhuMan in the Mists
  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    klemming wrote: »
    KetBra wrote: »
    DPS chief Steven McGraw: “We haven’t gotten into the why [motive]. We know the individual was also into cyber gaming in that regard, and group gaming.”
    Andrew Kimmel is a former Buzzfeed news person
    Cyber gaming, that well known-refuge of the criminally insane.

    To be fair that’s where Steve Bannon became prominent

    Could also refer to 4chan

    Of course it’s also worldwide but the mass shootings are here where all the guns are

    override367electricitylikesme
  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    Pretty much every major problem in this country comes around to money in politics. Politicians need money to be elected, where do they get it? Wealthy donors and special interests. But then they get addicted to that money and the donors and special interests don't want you to fix the problems, because that's how they got wealthy.

    The NRA (and the gun lobby in general) almost literally just hand sacks of cash over to the people who could solve the problem. The only people who could actually stop children from getting slaughtered are being paid to let it happen.

    electricitylikesmeKristmas Kthulhu
  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    edited May 27
    We need to destroy the gun industry yeah

    Their lobbying, yes, but also their marketing and innovating death etc

    Captain Inertia on
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  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    edited May 27
    KetBra wrote: »
    DPS chief Steven McGraw: “We haven’t gotten into the why [motive]. We know the individual was also into cyber gaming in that regard, and group gaming.”
    Andrew Kimmel is a former Buzzfeed news person

    Did I step into a portal to 1993 without realizing it?

    DPS Chief getting the playbook out:

    3w3br09jehpr.png

    joshofalltrades on
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  • Giggles_FunsworthGiggles_Funsworth Blight on Discourse Bay Area SprawlRegistered User regular
    I’m glad to see some of y’all out of the “numb to this” feeling

    We should never accept this as something that “just happens sometimes”

    These kids deserved better

    I have moved firmly into ‘end the second amendment within my lifetime’ territory. It’s a fantasy, but I’m sick of letting idiots and cultists define this argument. Every day we keep the second amendment, we are choosing a sad power fantasy over innocent lives.

    In short- and medium-term fantasy land, a buyback/amnesty period followed by intense penalties for possession. Any access to a firearm requires a lengthy training course, background and mental health screening, proof of safe storage capacity, regular checks of your home to verify storage practices, multiple current references updated annually, and the notarized signature of everybody you have lived with or been in a significant relationship with for the past few years. You want to own any gun, you better be on your best behavior for a long fucking time. And that gets you a single-shot rifle or shotgun, no handguns, nothing semi-automatic.

    The FBI can follow the record industry’s lead from the 90s and leak bad 3D prints of ghost guns that overheat and destroy your printer. Bonus points if they can devise a mechanism that results in near-permanent resin stains on the attempted user.

    I just don’t care about these people or trying to convince them any more. The only thing they fear is losing their fucking guns, so fuck it, take them. They can’t get worse than 40,000 dead a year, and the world can’t be better until they’ve been disarmed. Make it the police’s primary job for the next couple decades to seize and destroy guns, with constant federal oversight.

    There will be blowback, because these people worship death, but you’d need a hell of a lot of blowback for it to compare to the losses every day of our current situation brings.

    Edit: I’m sure there are a hundred flaws to every step in this, even beyond the sheer fantasy of it being feasible at all. Thankfully the bar for success is low enough to functionally not exist.

    tbf, i'm in my thirties, and i've been doing my best to position myself and my community in such a way that we'll survive whatever's coming together since 2016

    idk about y'all, but i plan to see the other side of the jackpot and i think it's entirely possible that after all that chaos and conflict we might find a more peaceful and equitable state of being

    it's also entirely possible that things just keep getting more and more dystopic, but the worse everything gets the more susceptible all these structures get to collapse

    crisis is opportunity, if we plan and react wisely

    mrpakutynicRingoKristmas Kthulhu
  • jungleroomxjungleroomx It's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovels Registered User regular
    Pretty much every major problem in this country comes around to money in politics.

    I hate to quote myself but I'm gonna quote myself
    No I’m fairly certain we can blame the vast majority of the systemic societal ills on the whims of rich people wanting more money.

    Giggles_FunsworthIncenjucarMagellDacNobodyBlackDragon480mrpakunever dieSleepMatevStabbity StyleAegeriboogedybooShadowhopeLord_AsmodeusEtiowsaCalicaMan in the MistsNitsua
  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    I’m glad to see some of y’all out of the “numb to this” feeling

    We should never accept this as something that “just happens sometimes”

    These kids deserved better

    I have moved firmly into ‘end the second amendment within my lifetime’ territory. It’s a fantasy, but I’m sick of letting idiots and cultists define this argument. Every day we keep the second amendment, we are choosing a sad power fantasy over innocent lives.

    In short- and medium-term fantasy land, a buyback/amnesty period followed by intense penalties for possession. Any access to a firearm requires a lengthy training course, background and mental health screening, proof of safe storage capacity, regular checks of your home to verify storage practices, multiple current references updated annually, and the notarized signature of everybody you have lived with or been in a significant relationship with for the past few years. You want to own any gun, you better be on your best behavior for a long fucking time. And that gets you a single-shot rifle or shotgun, no handguns, nothing semi-automatic.

    The FBI can follow the record industry’s lead from the 90s and leak bad 3D prints of ghost guns that overheat and destroy your printer. Bonus points if they can devise a mechanism that results in near-permanent resin stains on the attempted user.

    I just don’t care about these people or trying to convince them any more. The only thing they fear is losing their fucking guns, so fuck it, take them. They can’t get worse than 40,000 dead a year, and the world can’t be better until they’ve been disarmed. Make it the police’s primary job for the next couple decades to seize and destroy guns, with constant federal oversight.

    There will be blowback, because these people worship death, but you’d need a hell of a lot of blowback for it to compare to the losses every day of our current situation brings.

    Edit: I’m sure there are a hundred flaws to every step in this, even beyond the sheer fantasy of it being feasible at all. Thankfully the bar for success is low enough to functionally not exist.

    People thought the same thing about cigarettes, but the way to make this happen is actually fairly simple, if there is any political will at all to make it happen.

    You systematically dismantle the mystique around the thing. When it isn't cool anymore, when every gun owner that doesn't need their firearm for subsistence hunting, when every dumbass that says they need it for home defense looks like what they really are (sociopaths), they start to feel like losers.

    When they feel like losers, you offer to buy the thing from them. Suddenly they're winners again, because they got rid of the thing that was making them uncool and unpopular and they got some money for it.

    The problem here is step 1, because our politicians can be (and are) bribed to not do even the most simple things to fix the problem.

    I said it earlier in the thread but it is worth reiterating: the reduction of tobacco usage was the result of not any one single policy but the culmination of decades of intersecting and related policies.

    Gun violence in America is a public health issue, and as with tobacco I believe the first steps to be taken is to allow unrestricted and generously-funded research into the issue. We need to be armed with the truth in order to combat the propagandists lobbying for profiting from death.

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  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    I’m glad to see some of y’all out of the “numb to this” feeling

    We should never accept this as something that “just happens sometimes”

    These kids deserved better

    I have moved firmly into ‘end the second amendment within my lifetime’ territory. It’s a fantasy, but I’m sick of letting idiots and cultists define this argument. Every day we keep the second amendment, we are choosing a sad power fantasy over innocent lives.

    In short- and medium-term fantasy land, a buyback/amnesty period followed by intense penalties for possession. Any access to a firearm requires a lengthy training course, background and mental health screening, proof of safe storage capacity, regular checks of your home to verify storage practices, multiple current references updated annually, and the notarized signature of everybody you have lived with or been in a significant relationship with for the past few years. You want to own any gun, you better be on your best behavior for a long fucking time. And that gets you a single-shot rifle or shotgun, no handguns, nothing semi-automatic.

    The FBI can follow the record industry’s lead from the 90s and leak bad 3D prints of ghost guns that overheat and destroy your printer. Bonus points if they can devise a mechanism that results in near-permanent resin stains on the attempted user.

    I just don’t care about these people or trying to convince them any more. The only thing they fear is losing their fucking guns, so fuck it, take them. They can’t get worse than 40,000 dead a year, and the world can’t be better until they’ve been disarmed. Make it the police’s primary job for the next couple decades to seize and destroy guns, with constant federal oversight.

    There will be blowback, because these people worship death, but you’d need a hell of a lot of blowback for it to compare to the losses every day of our current situation brings.

    Edit: I’m sure there are a hundred flaws to every step in this, even beyond the sheer fantasy of it being feasible at all. Thankfully the bar for success is low enough to functionally not exist.

    People thought the same thing about cigarettes, but the way to make this happen is actually fairly simple, if there is any political will at all to make it happen.

    You systematically dismantle the mystique around the thing. When it isn't cool anymore, when every gun owner that doesn't need their firearm for subsistence hunting, when every dumbass that says they need it for home defense looks like what they really are (sociopaths), they start to feel like losers.

    When they feel like losers, you offer to buy the thing from them. Suddenly they're winners again, because they got rid of the thing that was making them uncool and unpopular and they got some money for it.

    The problem here is step 1, because our politicians can be (and are) bribed to not do even the most simple things to fix the problem.

    I said it earlier in the thread but it is worth reiterating: the reduction of tobacco usage was the result of not any one single policy but the culmination of decades of intersecting and related policies.

    Gun violence in America is a public health issue, and as with tobacco I believe the first steps to be taken is to allow unrestricted and generously-funded research into the issue. We need to be armed with the truth in order to combat the propagandists lobbying for profiting from death.

    They very specifically do not want researchers investigating it. It's a giant flashing "attack this weak point for massive damage".

    When evil asks you not to open that closet right there, you fucking open the closet.

    ElvenshaethatassemblyguyshrykeNobeardBlackDragon480mrpakuFencingsaxKayne Red Robeoverride367MatevStabbity StyleAegeriboogedybooShadowhopeLord_AsmodeusGnome-InterruptusRingoelectricitylikesmeMr RayForarmonikerjimb213CalicaKristmas KthulhuMan in the MistsNitsuaBullhead
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited May 27
    shryke wrote: »
    Hevach wrote: »
    Shadowhope wrote: »
    While I disagree with some of the specifics, I do agree that the system is functioning exactly as intended. I think that the last decade has shown us that there is no inflection point that will change the minds of half of Americas voters. And I do think that American gun policy is driven far more by the will of Republican voters than it is by even the most bought and paid for American politicians. Things like background checks may poll well, but when the rubber hits the road you have places like Maine voting against them on the ballot. Background checks: literally less popular in practice than Hillary Clinton!

    Pittsburg and Sutherland Springs and the Charleston shootings showed that places of worship weren’t going to be the line that changed people’s minds. Neither was shooting people shopping at Wal-Mart. Vegas and Orlando made clear that body count wasn’t an issue. But that all went without saying: Sandy Hook is all the evidence we need that no blood price is too high for the Republican voters and for the non-voting Americans to change anything any time soon.

    With that said, I do sort of wonder if mass shooters targeted legislatures instead of schools if politicians might start enacting tougher laws, even if unpopular, if only out of self-interest.

    The last time we got meaningful gun control was when a "liberal" shot a Republican president. The time before that was when a bunch of black people armed themselves against white lynch mobs. Before that it was Italians, who had been made technically white in 1893 but were not the right kind of white.

    This was all before January 6 2021, though. I don't know where the line has slid to, but trying to assassinate the Vice President and Republican congressional leadership isn't it anymore.

    these are both in reference to reagan yeah?

    because he was in the capitol as governor when the panthers showed up with their rifles

    not sure if you're getting at the national firearms act or not with the second part, but if so, gun control happened as a result of white anxieties of uncontrollable black populations twice in the last century

    not even like, Last Century last century

    from this date

    EDIT: also i just looked up the dates of the AWB and the later watts riots and i'm going to go out on a limb and say that the assault weapons ban probably had more to do with that than the attempted assassination of ronald reagan almost 15 years previously

    The AWB traces it's roots back to mass shootings in the late 80s to early 90s. What is afaik the first version of what eventually made it into the final bill was introduced in 1989 after a school shooting that killed 5 kids and injured dozens of other people. It kinda floats around for a few years and then eventually Feinstein gets behind it after another mass shooting (this time I believe a workplace one) in California.

    weird how that's still 8 years after the attempted assassination of reagan and 5 years before the passage of the bill, which only happened after everybody was het up over violent super predators

    c'mon man

    It's not weird at all. I literally explained to you how it happened. Things take time in congress. Bills languish for years all the time. You can go fucking read the actual history of the bill if you want rather then spreading conspiracy theories.

    shryke on
    QanamilFencingsax
  • OneAngryPossumOneAngryPossum Registered User regular
    edited May 27
    I appreciated this article from Scientific American I saw shared recently to combat the stupid myth that guns are used millions of times a year in self-defense:

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/more-guns-do-not-stop-more-crimes-evidence-shows/

    More neutrally written than I’d like, but honestly that’s probably helpful.

    Edit: In particular, there’s a graphic about mid-way through that I think is an efficient response to most of these self-defense illusions.

    OneAngryPossum on
    moniker
  • ZibblsnrtZibblsnrt Registered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    I’m glad to see some of y’all out of the “numb to this” feeling

    We should never accept this as something that “just happens sometimes”

    These kids deserved better

    I have moved firmly into ‘end the second amendment within my lifetime’ territory. It’s a fantasy, but I’m sick of letting idiots and cultists define this argument. Every day we keep the second amendment, we are choosing a sad power fantasy over innocent lives.

    In short- and medium-term fantasy land, a buyback/amnesty period followed by intense penalties for possession. Any access to a firearm requires a lengthy training course, background and mental health screening, proof of safe storage capacity, regular checks of your home to verify storage practices, multiple current references updated annually, and the notarized signature of everybody you have lived with or been in a significant relationship with for the past few years. You want to own any gun, you better be on your best behavior for a long fucking time. And that gets you a single-shot rifle or shotgun, no handguns, nothing semi-automatic.

    The FBI can follow the record industry’s lead from the 90s and leak bad 3D prints of ghost guns that overheat and destroy your printer. Bonus points if they can devise a mechanism that results in near-permanent resin stains on the attempted user.

    I just don’t care about these people or trying to convince them any more. The only thing they fear is losing their fucking guns, so fuck it, take them. They can’t get worse than 40,000 dead a year, and the world can’t be better until they’ve been disarmed. Make it the police’s primary job for the next couple decades to seize and destroy guns, with constant federal oversight.

    There will be blowback, because these people worship death, but you’d need a hell of a lot of blowback for it to compare to the losses every day of our current situation brings.

    Edit: I’m sure there are a hundred flaws to every step in this, even beyond the sheer fantasy of it being feasible at all. Thankfully the bar for success is low enough to functionally not exist.

    People thought the same thing about cigarettes, but the way to make this happen is actually fairly simple, if there is any political will at all to make it happen.

    You systematically dismantle the mystique around the thing. When it isn't cool anymore, when every gun owner that doesn't need their firearm for subsistence hunting, when every dumbass that says they need it for home defense looks like what they really are (sociopaths), they start to feel like losers.

    When they feel like losers, you offer to buy the thing from them. Suddenly they're winners again, because they got rid of the thing that was making them uncool and unpopular and they got some money for it.

    The problem here is step 1, because our politicians can be (and are) bribed to not do even the most simple things to fix the problem.

    I said it earlier in the thread but it is worth reiterating: the reduction of tobacco usage was the result of not any one single policy but the culmination of decades of intersecting and related policies.

    Gun violence in America is a public health issue, and as with tobacco I believe the first steps to be taken is to allow unrestricted and generously-funded research into the issue. We need to be armed with the truth in order to combat the propagandists lobbying for profiting from death.

    They very specifically do not want researchers investigating it. It's a giant flashing "attack this weak point for massive damage".

    When evil asks you not to open that closet right there, you fucking open the closet.

    Just in case that wasn't silly enough, the ATF isn't allowed to use to use any technology that allows or facilitates searching in firearms tracing. Their "database," when the need to look up a weapon, is required by law to be entirely analog. It's all paper and microfilm.

    ElvenshaeBlackDragon480Martini_PhilosopherGONG-00FencingsaxAegeriGnome-InterruptuselectricitylikesmemarajimonikerKristmas KthulhuMan in the Mists
  • Giggles_FunsworthGiggles_Funsworth Blight on Discourse Bay Area SprawlRegistered User regular
    edited May 27
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Hevach wrote: »
    Shadowhope wrote: »
    While I disagree with some of the specifics, I do agree that the system is functioning exactly as intended. I think that the last decade has shown us that there is no inflection point that will change the minds of half of Americas voters. And I do think that American gun policy is driven far more by the will of Republican voters than it is by even the most bought and paid for American politicians. Things like background checks may poll well, but when the rubber hits the road you have places like Maine voting against them on the ballot. Background checks: literally less popular in practice than Hillary Clinton!

    Pittsburg and Sutherland Springs and the Charleston shootings showed that places of worship weren’t going to be the line that changed people’s minds. Neither was shooting people shopping at Wal-Mart. Vegas and Orlando made clear that body count wasn’t an issue. But that all went without saying: Sandy Hook is all the evidence we need that no blood price is too high for the Republican voters and for the non-voting Americans to change anything any time soon.

    With that said, I do sort of wonder if mass shooters targeted legislatures instead of schools if politicians might start enacting tougher laws, even if unpopular, if only out of self-interest.

    The last time we got meaningful gun control was when a "liberal" shot a Republican president. The time before that was when a bunch of black people armed themselves against white lynch mobs. Before that it was Italians, who had been made technically white in 1893 but were not the right kind of white.

    This was all before January 6 2021, though. I don't know where the line has slid to, but trying to assassinate the Vice President and Republican congressional leadership isn't it anymore.

    these are both in reference to reagan yeah?

    because he was in the capitol as governor when the panthers showed up with their rifles

    not sure if you're getting at the national firearms act or not with the second part, but if so, gun control happened as a result of white anxieties of uncontrollable black populations twice in the last century

    not even like, Last Century last century

    from this date

    EDIT: also i just looked up the dates of the AWB and the later watts riots and i'm going to go out on a limb and say that the assault weapons ban probably had more to do with that than the attempted assassination of ronald reagan almost 15 years previously

    The AWB traces it's roots back to mass shootings in the late 80s to early 90s. What is afaik the first version of what eventually made it into the final bill was introduced in 1989 after a school shooting that killed 5 kids and injured dozens of other people. It kinda floats around for a few years and then eventually Feinstein gets behind it after another mass shooting (this time I believe a workplace one) in California.

    weird how that's still 8 years after the attempted assassination of reagan and 5 years before the passage of the bill, which only happened after everybody was het up over violent super predators

    c'mon man

    It's not weird at all. I literally explained to you how it happened. Things take time in congress. Bills languish for years all the time. You can go fucking read the actual history of the bill if you want rather then spreading conspiracy theories.

    man it passed halfway into clinton's first term the same year as this

    https://www.congress.gov/bill/103rd-congress/house-bill/3355/text

    i lived through this, and remember the racial climate in california at the time

    Giggles_Funsworth on
  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    Zibblsnrt wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    I’m glad to see some of y’all out of the “numb to this” feeling

    We should never accept this as something that “just happens sometimes”

    These kids deserved better

    I have moved firmly into ‘end the second amendment within my lifetime’ territory. It’s a fantasy, but I’m sick of letting idiots and cultists define this argument. Every day we keep the second amendment, we are choosing a sad power fantasy over innocent lives.

    In short- and medium-term fantasy land, a buyback/amnesty period followed by intense penalties for possession. Any access to a firearm requires a lengthy training course, background and mental health screening, proof of safe storage capacity, regular checks of your home to verify storage practices, multiple current references updated annually, and the notarized signature of everybody you have lived with or been in a significant relationship with for the past few years. You want to own any gun, you better be on your best behavior for a long fucking time. And that gets you a single-shot rifle or shotgun, no handguns, nothing semi-automatic.

    The FBI can follow the record industry’s lead from the 90s and leak bad 3D prints of ghost guns that overheat and destroy your printer. Bonus points if they can devise a mechanism that results in near-permanent resin stains on the attempted user.

    I just don’t care about these people or trying to convince them any more. The only thing they fear is losing their fucking guns, so fuck it, take them. They can’t get worse than 40,000 dead a year, and the world can’t be better until they’ve been disarmed. Make it the police’s primary job for the next couple decades to seize and destroy guns, with constant federal oversight.

    There will be blowback, because these people worship death, but you’d need a hell of a lot of blowback for it to compare to the losses every day of our current situation brings.

    Edit: I’m sure there are a hundred flaws to every step in this, even beyond the sheer fantasy of it being feasible at all. Thankfully the bar for success is low enough to functionally not exist.

    People thought the same thing about cigarettes, but the way to make this happen is actually fairly simple, if there is any political will at all to make it happen.

    You systematically dismantle the mystique around the thing. When it isn't cool anymore, when every gun owner that doesn't need their firearm for subsistence hunting, when every dumbass that says they need it for home defense looks like what they really are (sociopaths), they start to feel like losers.

    When they feel like losers, you offer to buy the thing from them. Suddenly they're winners again, because they got rid of the thing that was making them uncool and unpopular and they got some money for it.

    The problem here is step 1, because our politicians can be (and are) bribed to not do even the most simple things to fix the problem.

    I said it earlier in the thread but it is worth reiterating: the reduction of tobacco usage was the result of not any one single policy but the culmination of decades of intersecting and related policies.

    Gun violence in America is a public health issue, and as with tobacco I believe the first steps to be taken is to allow unrestricted and generously-funded research into the issue. We need to be armed with the truth in order to combat the propagandists lobbying for profiting from death.

    They very specifically do not want researchers investigating it. It's a giant flashing "attack this weak point for massive damage".

    When evil asks you not to open that closet right there, you fucking open the closet.

    Just in case that wasn't silly enough, the ATF isn't allowed to use to use any technology that allows or facilitates searching in firearms tracing. Their "database," when the need to look up a weapon, is required by law to be entirely analog. It's all paper and microfilm.

    It’s slightly better than that now

    Unsearchable images saved as pdfs

  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    edited May 27
    Mulletude wrote: »
    They blocked people who were ready, willing and trained to go in and end it...I don't understand...

    My son is 11 and since the moment the news broke on this particular tragedy my fear for what he could needlessly encounter in his young life has once again been renewed.

    There's no fucking end in sight to this bullshit is there

    More then that: they blocked people who were capable of doing it but in no logical world should of been required to do so since it was fucking border patrol ffs and they have a god damn swat team in a town of 13k.
    I’m glad to see some of y’all out of the “numb to this” feeling

    We should never accept this as something that “just happens sometimes”

    These kids deserved better

    I have moved firmly into ‘end the second amendment within my lifetime’ territory. It’s a fantasy, but I’m sick of letting idiots and cultists define this argument. Every day we keep the second amendment, we are choosing a sad power fantasy over innocent lives.

    In short- and medium-term fantasy land, a buyback/amnesty period followed by intense penalties for possession. Any access to a firearm requires a lengthy training course, background and mental health screening, proof of safe storage capacity, regular checks of your home to verify storage practices, multiple current references updated annually, and the notarized signature of everybody you have lived with or been in a significant relationship with for the past few years. You want to own any gun, you better be on your best behavior for a long fucking time. And that gets you a single-shot rifle or shotgun, no handguns, nothing semi-automatic.

    The FBI can follow the record industry’s lead from the 90s and leak bad 3D prints of ghost guns that overheat and destroy your printer. Bonus points if they can devise a mechanism that results in near-permanent resin stains on the attempted user.

    I just don’t care about these people or trying to convince them any more. The only thing they fear is losing their fucking guns, so fuck it, take them. They can’t get worse than 40,000 dead a year, and the world can’t be better until they’ve been disarmed. Make it the police’s primary job for the next couple decades to seize and destroy guns, with constant federal oversight.

    There will be blowback, because these people worship death, but you’d need a hell of a lot of blowback for it to compare to the losses every day of our current situation brings.

    Edit: I’m sure there are a hundred flaws to every step in this, even beyond the sheer fantasy of it being feasible at all. Thankfully the bar for success is low enough to functionally not exist.

    A lot of the problems with the 2nd ammendment would be dramatically resolved if it was actually used as intended (IE you need to be part of an organized, regulated milita if you want to play with a bang bang stick).

    Gaddez on
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  • NobeardNobeard North Carolina: Failed StateRegistered User regular
    I am now suspicious that some cop did charge in but instead of shooting the gunman he shot and killed a couple kids and that’s why the outside cops were so adamant on keeping anyone else from getting in, including parents and other departments.

    I'm not saying we are going to have an autocratic dystopia, but things keep happening that look like they come from an autocratic dystopia.
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  • OneAngryPossumOneAngryPossum Registered User regular
    Agreed on the second amendment, but we’ve pretty thoroughly shown it’s not something we should be trusted to interpret that way. By the time getting rid of it is feasible it would be mostly symbolic and protection against cultural backsliding.

    Captain Inertiamaraji
  • zagdrobzagdrob Registered User regular
    I’m glad to see some of y’all out of the “numb to this” feeling

    We should never accept this as something that “just happens sometimes”

    These kids deserved better

    I have moved firmly into ‘end the second amendment within my lifetime’ territory. It’s a fantasy, but I’m sick of letting idiots and cultists define this argument. Every day we keep the second amendment, we are choosing a sad power fantasy over innocent lives.

    In short- and medium-term fantasy land, a buyback/amnesty period followed by intense penalties for possession. Any access to a firearm requires a lengthy training course, background and mental health screening, proof of safe storage capacity, regular checks of your home to verify storage practices, multiple current references updated annually, and the notarized signature of everybody you have lived with or been in a significant relationship with for the past few years. You want to own any gun, you better be on your best behavior for a long fucking time. And that gets you a single-shot rifle or shotgun, no handguns, nothing semi-automatic.

    The FBI can follow the record industry’s lead from the 90s and leak bad 3D prints of ghost guns that overheat and destroy your printer. Bonus points if they can devise a mechanism that results in near-permanent resin stains on the attempted user.

    I just don’t care about these people or trying to convince them any more. The only thing they fear is losing their fucking guns, so fuck it, take them. They can’t get worse than 40,000 dead a year, and the world can’t be better until they’ve been disarmed. Make it the police’s primary job for the next couple decades to seize and destroy guns, with constant federal oversight.

    There will be blowback, because these people worship death, but you’d need a hell of a lot of blowback for it to compare to the losses every day of our current situation brings.

    Edit: I’m sure there are a hundred flaws to every step in this, even beyond the sheer fantasy of it being feasible at all. Thankfully the bar for success is low enough to functionally not exist.

    tbf, i'm in my thirties, and i've been doing my best to position myself and my community in such a way that we'll survive whatever's coming together since 2016

    idk about y'all, but i plan to see the other side of the jackpot and i think it's entirely possible that after all that chaos and conflict we might find a more peaceful and equitable state of being

    it's also entirely possible that things just keep getting more and more dystopic, but the worse everything gets the more susceptible all these structures get to collapse

    crisis is opportunity, if we plan and react wisely

    I hope you realize how utterly callously tasteless a 'chaos is a ladder' post talking about jackpots and opportunity is in a thread about a classroom full of dead kids.

    This is just gross.

    shrykejoshofalltradesronzoElvenshaeKnuckle DraggerDacSkeithQanamilMartini_PhilosopherEmperorSethElJeffeFencingsaxCentipede DamascusKayne Red RobeChiselphaneShadowfireTynnanAegeriLord_AsmodeusmonikerMan in the MistsBandable
  • Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    edited May 27
    Also in that Scientific American article:
    I was standing in a shooting range 15 miles south of Kennesaw, Ga., a place known as “America's Gun City” because of a law requiring residents to own firearms.

    excuse me WHAT?
    Yet the sense I got in Kennesaw—which feels like a typical small city, not some gun-frenzied town—is that data don't matter to a lot of people. It was similar in other places I visited. What matters more is apparent logic: guns stop criminals, so they keep people safer

    same verse same as the first. Gut feeling bullshit is what most people rely on for most things.

    Phoenix-D on
    OneAngryPossumelectricitylikesmemarajijimb213
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited May 27
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Hevach wrote: »
    Shadowhope wrote: »
    While I disagree with some of the specifics, I do agree that the system is functioning exactly as intended. I think that the last decade has shown us that there is no inflection point that will change the minds of half of Americas voters. And I do think that American gun policy is driven far more by the will of Republican voters than it is by even the most bought and paid for American politicians. Things like background checks may poll well, but when the rubber hits the road you have places like Maine voting against them on the ballot. Background checks: literally less popular in practice than Hillary Clinton!

    Pittsburg and Sutherland Springs and the Charleston shootings showed that places of worship weren’t going to be the line that changed people’s minds. Neither was shooting people shopping at Wal-Mart. Vegas and Orlando made clear that body count wasn’t an issue. But that all went without saying: Sandy Hook is all the evidence we need that no blood price is too high for the Republican voters and for the non-voting Americans to change anything any time soon.

    With that said, I do sort of wonder if mass shooters targeted legislatures instead of schools if politicians might start enacting tougher laws, even if unpopular, if only out of self-interest.

    The last time we got meaningful gun control was when a "liberal" shot a Republican president. The time before that was when a bunch of black people armed themselves against white lynch mobs. Before that it was Italians, who had been made technically white in 1893 but were not the right kind of white.

    This was all before January 6 2021, though. I don't know where the line has slid to, but trying to assassinate the Vice President and Republican congressional leadership isn't it anymore.

    these are both in reference to reagan yeah?

    because he was in the capitol as governor when the panthers showed up with their rifles

    not sure if you're getting at the national firearms act or not with the second part, but if so, gun control happened as a result of white anxieties of uncontrollable black populations twice in the last century

    not even like, Last Century last century

    from this date

    EDIT: also i just looked up the dates of the AWB and the later watts riots and i'm going to go out on a limb and say that the assault weapons ban probably had more to do with that than the attempted assassination of ronald reagan almost 15 years previously

    The AWB traces it's roots back to mass shootings in the late 80s to early 90s. What is afaik the first version of what eventually made it into the final bill was introduced in 1989 after a school shooting that killed 5 kids and injured dozens of other people. It kinda floats around for a few years and then eventually Feinstein gets behind it after another mass shooting (this time I believe a workplace one) in California.

    weird how that's still 8 years after the attempted assassination of reagan and 5 years before the passage of the bill, which only happened after everybody was het up over violent super predators

    c'mon man

    It's not weird at all. I literally explained to you how it happened. Things take time in congress. Bills languish for years all the time. You can go fucking read the actual history of the bill if you want rather then spreading conspiracy theories.

    man it passed halfway into clinton's first term the same year as this

    https://www.congress.gov/bill/103rd-congress/house-bill/3355/text

    i lived through this, and remember the racial climate in california at the time

    You just said you were in your 30s so when it passed I hardly think your 9 year old recollection of the times is more accurate then, to pick a random link, NPR:
    in just her second year as a senator, Feinstein took over as chief sponsor of a bill originally offered by Ohio Democrat Howard Metzenbaum in 1989 after a mass shooting on a schoolyard in Stockton, Calif.

    That shooting took the lives of five children and injured 28 others and a teacher.

    Feinstein's resolve to carry this legislation forward was bolstered when eight more people were killed and six injured in another California horror, this time at a law firm in San Francisco.
    https://www.npr.org/2019/08/13/750656174/the-u-s-once-had-a-ban-on-assault-weapons-why-did-it-expire7

    The history of this bill is not that hard to look up. I don't know what you are trying to do here.

    shryke on
    Knuckle DraggerFencingsaxGnome-InterruptusmonikerBandable
  • VeagleVeagle Registered User regular
    Zibblsnrt wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    I’m glad to see some of y’all out of the “numb to this” feeling

    We should never accept this as something that “just happens sometimes”

    These kids deserved better

    I have moved firmly into ‘end the second amendment within my lifetime’ territory. It’s a fantasy, but I’m sick of letting idiots and cultists define this argument. Every day we keep the second amendment, we are choosing a sad power fantasy over innocent lives.

    In short- and medium-term fantasy land, a buyback/amnesty period followed by intense penalties for possession. Any access to a firearm requires a lengthy training course, background and mental health screening, proof of safe storage capacity, regular checks of your home to verify storage practices, multiple current references updated annually, and the notarized signature of everybody you have lived with or been in a significant relationship with for the past few years. You want to own any gun, you better be on your best behavior for a long fucking time. And that gets you a single-shot rifle or shotgun, no handguns, nothing semi-automatic.

    The FBI can follow the record industry’s lead from the 90s and leak bad 3D prints of ghost guns that overheat and destroy your printer. Bonus points if they can devise a mechanism that results in near-permanent resin stains on the attempted user.

    I just don’t care about these people or trying to convince them any more. The only thing they fear is losing their fucking guns, so fuck it, take them. They can’t get worse than 40,000 dead a year, and the world can’t be better until they’ve been disarmed. Make it the police’s primary job for the next couple decades to seize and destroy guns, with constant federal oversight.

    There will be blowback, because these people worship death, but you’d need a hell of a lot of blowback for it to compare to the losses every day of our current situation brings.

    Edit: I’m sure there are a hundred flaws to every step in this, even beyond the sheer fantasy of it being feasible at all. Thankfully the bar for success is low enough to functionally not exist.

    People thought the same thing about cigarettes, but the way to make this happen is actually fairly simple, if there is any political will at all to make it happen.

    You systematically dismantle the mystique around the thing. When it isn't cool anymore, when every gun owner that doesn't need their firearm for subsistence hunting, when every dumbass that says they need it for home defense looks like what they really are (sociopaths), they start to feel like losers.

    When they feel like losers, you offer to buy the thing from them. Suddenly they're winners again, because they got rid of the thing that was making them uncool and unpopular and they got some money for it.

    The problem here is step 1, because our politicians can be (and are) bribed to not do even the most simple things to fix the problem.

    I said it earlier in the thread but it is worth reiterating: the reduction of tobacco usage was the result of not any one single policy but the culmination of decades of intersecting and related policies.

    Gun violence in America is a public health issue, and as with tobacco I believe the first steps to be taken is to allow unrestricted and generously-funded research into the issue. We need to be armed with the truth in order to combat the propagandists lobbying for profiting from death.

    They very specifically do not want researchers investigating it. It's a giant flashing "attack this weak point for massive damage".

    When evil asks you not to open that closet right there, you fucking open the closet.

    Just in case that wasn't silly enough, the ATF isn't allowed to use to use any technology that allows or facilitates searching in firearms tracing. Their "database," when the need to look up a weapon, is required by law to be entirely analog. It's all paper and microfilm.

    Stored in shipping containers in the parking lot because they're worried their dilapidated office will collapse from the weight of the paperwork, and run by a handful of employees.

    https://gq.com/story/inside-federal-bureau-of-way-too-many-guns

    They should make a movie out of this to get people informed, but nobody would believe it's real.

    steam_sig.png
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  • PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    It seems like we're really focused on this, and it's something that is probably accomplishable with public pressure

    Marty: The future, it's where you're going?
    Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    Paladin wrote: »
    It seems like we're really focused on this, and it's something that is probably accomplishable with public pressure

    Let’s see how focused it seems after 2 more weekends, cause the senate is out that whole time

    SleepBurtletoymarajiMan in the MistsNitsua
  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    Since yesterday I’ve come around on the “focusing on police ineptitude is a problem” thing. I definitely always acknowledged it as a tangent, but based on my social media feed criticism of the police response does appear to have sucked all the air out of the conversation about the actual issue, guns.

    Not talking about this thread, we’re all capable of walking and chewing gum. But color me unsurprised if it came out later that gun companies spent some nonzero amount of dollars astroturfing some “man, these cops m i rite” messaging across social media to distract from any actual conversation on gun control.

    Though if yellow line stickers become a thing, I won’t complain.

    maraji
  • LanzLanz Registered User regular
    .
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Hevach wrote: »
    Shadowhope wrote: »
    While I disagree with some of the specifics, I do agree that the system is functioning exactly as intended. I think that the last decade has shown us that there is no inflection point that will change the minds of half of Americas voters. And I do think that American gun policy is driven far more by the will of Republican voters than it is by even the most bought and paid for American politicians. Things like background checks may poll well, but when the rubber hits the road you have places like Maine voting against them on the ballot. Background checks: literally less popular in practice than Hillary Clinton!

    Pittsburg and Sutherland Springs and the Charleston shootings showed that places of worship weren’t going to be the line that changed people’s minds. Neither was shooting people shopping at Wal-Mart. Vegas and Orlando made clear that body count wasn’t an issue. But that all went without saying: Sandy Hook is all the evidence we need that no blood price is too high for the Republican voters and for the non-voting Americans to change anything any time soon.

    With that said, I do sort of wonder if mass shooters targeted legislatures instead of schools if politicians might start enacting tougher laws, even if unpopular, if only out of self-interest.

    The last time we got meaningful gun control was when a "liberal" shot a Republican president. The time before that was when a bunch of black people armed themselves against white lynch mobs. Before that it was Italians, who had been made technically white in 1893 but were not the right kind of white.

    This was all before January 6 2021, though. I don't know where the line has slid to, but trying to assassinate the Vice President and Republican congressional leadership isn't it anymore.

    these are both in reference to reagan yeah?

    because he was in the capitol as governor when the panthers showed up with their rifles

    not sure if you're getting at the national firearms act or not with the second part, but if so, gun control happened as a result of white anxieties of uncontrollable black populations twice in the last century

    not even like, Last Century last century

    from this date

    EDIT: also i just looked up the dates of the AWB and the later watts riots and i'm going to go out on a limb and say that the assault weapons ban probably had more to do with that than the attempted assassination of ronald reagan almost 15 years previously

    The AWB traces it's roots back to mass shootings in the late 80s to early 90s. What is afaik the first version of what eventually made it into the final bill was introduced in 1989 after a school shooting that killed 5 kids and injured dozens of other people. It kinda floats around for a few years and then eventually Feinstein gets behind it after another mass shooting (this time I believe a workplace one) in California.

    weird how that's still 8 years after the attempted assassination of reagan and 5 years before the passage of the bill, which only happened after everybody was het up over violent super predators

    c'mon man

    It's not weird at all. I literally explained to you how it happened. Things take time in congress. Bills languish for years all the time. You can go fucking read the actual history of the bill if you want rather then spreading conspiracy theories.

    man it passed halfway into clinton's first term the same year as this

    https://www.congress.gov/bill/103rd-congress/house-bill/3355/text

    i lived through this, and remember the racial climate in california at the time

    You just said you were in your 30s so when it passed I hardly think your 9 year old recollection of the times is more accurate then, to pick a random link, NPR:
    in just her second year as a senator, Feinstein took over as chief sponsor of a bill originally offered by Ohio Democrat Howard Metzenbaum in 1989 after a mass shooting on a schoolyard in Stockton, Calif.

    That shooting took the lives of five children and injured 28 others and a teacher.

    Feinstein's resolve to carry this legislation forward was bolstered when eight more people were killed and six injured in another California horror, this time at a law firm in San Francisco.
    https://www.npr.org/2019/08/13/750656174/the-u-s-once-had-a-ban-on-assault-weapons-why-did-it-expire7

    The history of this bill is not that hard to look up. I don't know what you are trying to do here.

    Is there any particular reason we are doubting that there is a distinct correlation between racial animus by the government and the rare passage of gun restrictions in a nation that has, since prior to its inception, has long been plagued with the evil of white supremacy and anti-black animus?

    Particularly when we can also see distinct correlation of gun sales going through the goddamn roof the moment the country elected a black man president?

    This isn’t some kind of “conspiracy theory,” this is just the basic understanding of the intersection of Race and Firearms in America: as long as firearms are seen as the tools of white power, they are allowed to flow freely throughout, even flood, our communities. When black people demonstrate they too can have guns, then America tamps down.

    waNkm4k.jpg?1
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  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Since yesterday I’ve come around on the “focusing on police ineptitude is a problem” thing. I definitely always acknowledged it as a tangent, but based on my social media feed criticism of the police response does appear to have sucked all the air out of the conversation about the actual issue, guns.

    Not talking about this thread, we’re all capable of walking and chewing gum. But color me unsurprised if it came out later that gun companies spent some nonzero amount of dollars astroturfing some “man, these cops m i rite” messaging across social media to distract from any actual conversation on gun control.

    Though if yellow line stickers become a thing, I won’t complain.

    The wet yellow line

    ElvenshaeDocmarajimonikerKristmas Kthulhu
  • Dark_SideDark_Side Registered User regular
    edited May 27
    Nobeard wrote: »
    I am now suspicious that some cop did charge in but instead of shooting the gunman he shot and killed a couple kids and that’s why the outside cops were so adamant on keeping anyone else from getting in, including parents and other departments.

    Typically the simplest option is the correct one, and that would be they showed up and decided to secure the site before breaching, communication broke down, and cost them an hour before taking action. But....the weirdly random nature of what they're saying in these press conferences, and the desperate search for a scapegoat like video games, really hints it was far worse than bad communication.

    But my god...you had officers standing outside that school with military grade rifles. It's just inexcusable.

    Dark_Side on
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  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    Even if those cops had nothing but their bare hands, I would still have expected them to call for backup, then run in the school and try to tackle the shooter.

    Those were kids in there. If nothing else, you buy them some time.

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  • Giggles_FunsworthGiggles_Funsworth Blight on Discourse Bay Area SprawlRegistered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Hevach wrote: »
    Shadowhope wrote: »
    While I disagree with some of the specifics, I do agree that the system is functioning exactly as intended. I think that the last decade has shown us that there is no inflection point that will change the minds of half of Americas voters. And I do think that American gun policy is driven far more by the will of Republican voters than it is by even the most bought and paid for American politicians. Things like background checks may poll well, but when the rubber hits the road you have places like Maine voting against them on the ballot. Background checks: literally less popular in practice than Hillary Clinton!

    Pittsburg and Sutherland Springs and the Charleston shootings showed that places of worship weren’t going to be the line that changed people’s minds. Neither was shooting people shopping at Wal-Mart. Vegas and Orlando made clear that body count wasn’t an issue. But that all went without saying: Sandy Hook is all the evidence we need that no blood price is too high for the Republican voters and for the non-voting Americans to change anything any time soon.

    With that said, I do sort of wonder if mass shooters targeted legislatures instead of schools if politicians might start enacting tougher laws, even if unpopular, if only out of self-interest.

    The last time we got meaningful gun control was when a "liberal" shot a Republican president. The time before that was when a bunch of black people armed themselves against white lynch mobs. Before that it was Italians, who had been made technically white in 1893 but were not the right kind of white.

    This was all before January 6 2021, though. I don't know where the line has slid to, but trying to assassinate the Vice President and Republican congressional leadership isn't it anymore.

    these are both in reference to reagan yeah?

    because he was in the capitol as governor when the panthers showed up with their rifles

    not sure if you're getting at the national firearms act or not with the second part, but if so, gun control happened as a result of white anxieties of uncontrollable black populations twice in the last century

    not even like, Last Century last century

    from this date

    EDIT: also i just looked up the dates of the AWB and the later watts riots and i'm going to go out on a limb and say that the assault weapons ban probably had more to do with that than the attempted assassination of ronald reagan almost 15 years previously

    The AWB traces it's roots back to mass shootings in the late 80s to early 90s. What is afaik the first version of what eventually made it into the final bill was introduced in 1989 after a school shooting that killed 5 kids and injured dozens of other people. It kinda floats around for a few years and then eventually Feinstein gets behind it after another mass shooting (this time I believe a workplace one) in California.

    weird how that's still 8 years after the attempted assassination of reagan and 5 years before the passage of the bill, which only happened after everybody was het up over violent super predators

    c'mon man

    It's not weird at all. I literally explained to you how it happened. Things take time in congress. Bills languish for years all the time. You can go fucking read the actual history of the bill if you want rather then spreading conspiracy theories.

    man it passed halfway into clinton's first term the same year as this

    https://www.congress.gov/bill/103rd-congress/house-bill/3355/text

    i lived through this, and remember the racial climate in california at the time

    You just said you were in your 30s so when it passed I hardly think your 9 year old recollection of the times is more accurate then, to pick a random link, NPR:
    in just her second year as a senator, Feinstein took over as chief sponsor of a bill originally offered by Ohio Democrat Howard Metzenbaum in 1989 after a mass shooting on a schoolyard in Stockton, Calif.

    That shooting took the lives of five children and injured 28 others and a teacher.

    Feinstein's resolve to carry this legislation forward was bolstered when eight more people were killed and six injured in another California horror, this time at a law firm in San Francisco.
    https://www.npr.org/2019/08/13/750656174/the-u-s-once-had-a-ban-on-assault-weapons-why-did-it-expire7

    The history of this bill is not that hard to look up. I don't know what you are trying to do here.

    buddy i've helped get a few bills passed, and most the work is in shifting the overton window to the point where they can pass

    the fact is the bill finally passed in the wake of these widely televised race riots along with a bunch of other incredibly racist legislation

    most the point of clinton's "third way" bullshit was giving into the "economic anxiety" of white suburbanites

    the democrats submit bills that aren't ever going to go anywhere all the time

    the date it was submitted is nearly meaningless, that's theater

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited May 27
    Lanz wrote: »
    .
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Hevach wrote: »
    Shadowhope wrote: »
    While I disagree with some of the specifics, I do agree that the system is functioning exactly as intended. I think that the last decade has shown us that there is no inflection point that will change the minds of half of Americas voters. And I do think that American gun policy is driven far more by the will of Republican voters than it is by even the most bought and paid for American politicians. Things like background checks may poll well, but when the rubber hits the road you have places like Maine voting against them on the ballot. Background checks: literally less popular in practice than Hillary Clinton!

    Pittsburg and Sutherland Springs and the Charleston shootings showed that places of worship weren’t going to be the line that changed people’s minds. Neither was shooting people shopping at Wal-Mart. Vegas and Orlando made clear that body count wasn’t an issue. But that all went without saying: Sandy Hook is all the evidence we need that no blood price is too high for the Republican voters and for the non-voting Americans to change anything any time soon.

    With that said, I do sort of wonder if mass shooters targeted legislatures instead of schools if politicians might start enacting tougher laws, even if unpopular, if only out of self-interest.

    The last time we got meaningful gun control was when a "liberal" shot a Republican president. The time before that was when a bunch of black people armed themselves against white lynch mobs. Before that it was Italians, who had been made technically white in 1893 but were not the right kind of white.

    This was all before January 6 2021, though. I don't know where the line has slid to, but trying to assassinate the Vice President and Republican congressional leadership isn't it anymore.

    these are both in reference to reagan yeah?

    because he was in the capitol as governor when the panthers showed up with their rifles

    not sure if you're getting at the national firearms act or not with the second part, but if so, gun control happened as a result of white anxieties of uncontrollable black populations twice in the last century

    not even like, Last Century last century

    from this date

    EDIT: also i just looked up the dates of the AWB and the later watts riots and i'm going to go out on a limb and say that the assault weapons ban probably had more to do with that than the attempted assassination of ronald reagan almost 15 years previously

    The AWB traces it's roots back to mass shootings in the late 80s to early 90s. What is afaik the first version of what eventually made it into the final bill was introduced in 1989 after a school shooting that killed 5 kids and injured dozens of other people. It kinda floats around for a few years and then eventually Feinstein gets behind it after another mass shooting (this time I believe a workplace one) in California.

    weird how that's still 8 years after the attempted assassination of reagan and 5 years before the passage of the bill, which only happened after everybody was het up over violent super predators

    c'mon man

    It's not weird at all. I literally explained to you how it happened. Things take time in congress. Bills languish for years all the time. You can go fucking read the actual history of the bill if you want rather then spreading conspiracy theories.

    man it passed halfway into clinton's first term the same year as this

    https://www.congress.gov/bill/103rd-congress/house-bill/3355/text

    i lived through this, and remember the racial climate in california at the time

    You just said you were in your 30s so when it passed I hardly think your 9 year old recollection of the times is more accurate then, to pick a random link, NPR:
    in just her second year as a senator, Feinstein took over as chief sponsor of a bill originally offered by Ohio Democrat Howard Metzenbaum in 1989 after a mass shooting on a schoolyard in Stockton, Calif.

    That shooting took the lives of five children and injured 28 others and a teacher.

    Feinstein's resolve to carry this legislation forward was bolstered when eight more people were killed and six injured in another California horror, this time at a law firm in San Francisco.
    https://www.npr.org/2019/08/13/750656174/the-u-s-once-had-a-ban-on-assault-weapons-why-did-it-expire7

    The history of this bill is not that hard to look up. I don't know what you are trying to do here.

    Is there any particular reason we are doubting that there is a distinct correlation between racial animus by the government and the rare passage of gun restrictions in a nation that has, since prior to its inception, has long been plagued with the evil of white supremacy and anti-black animus?

    Particularly when we can also see distinct correlation of gun sales going through the goddamn roof the moment the country elected a black man president?

    This isn’t some kind of “conspiracy theory,” this is just the basic understanding of the intersection of Race and Firearms in America: as long as firearms are seen as the tools of white power, they are allowed to flow freely throughout, even flood, our communities. When black people demonstrate they too can have guns, then America tamps down.

    Because it's not actually based on anything? Maybe instead we should go with the actual history of the law in question. Which I just linked an example of. We don't need random made up conspiracies about how actually it's about some other thing if you just ignore the actual facts and instead go with wild theories based on assumed connections.

    shryke on
  • LanzLanz Registered User regular
    Even if those cops had nothing but their bare hands, I would still have expected them to call for backup, then run in the school and try to tackle the shooter.

    Those were kids in there. If nothing else, you buy them some time.



    Sara Jeong is Deputy Features editor at The Verge, and is currently briefing herself on and writing to her feed about the Active Shooter Response for School-Based Law Enforcement manual, published Jan 2020
    gonna end this with the most striking line from the manual:

    "A first responder unwilling to place the lives of the innocent above their own safety should consider another career field."

    waNkm4k.jpg?1
    joshofalltradesBlackDragon480ElvenshaeTetraNitroCubaneshrykeMagellMartini_PhilosopherLabelBloodsheedknitdanmanwiththemachinegunNobodyA Kobold's KoboldDarkPrimusFencingsaxFlying CouchKetarNobeardchrono_travellerCentipede DamascusAbsoluteZeroMatevShadowfireMorganVKruiteBurtletoyMillSkeithStabbity StyleAegeriboogedybooShadowhopeGnome-InterruptusRingothatassemblyguyelectricitylikesmeHavelock2.0marajimonikerjimb213Kristmas KthulhuTransporterMan in the MistsNitsuaNyysjanBullhead
  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    Even if those cops had nothing but their bare hands, I would still have expected them to call for backup, then run in the school and try to tackle the shooter.

    Those were kids in there. If nothing else, you buy them some time.

    I mean its literally what they tell us teachers should be doing. And probably what at least one of the dead adults probably attempted.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    pleasepaypreacher.net
    ElvenshaejoshofalltradesshrykeMagellDark_SideFencingsaxSleepSkeithAegeriKayne Red RobeShadowhopeGnome-InterruptusthatassemblyguyelectricitylikesmemarajimonikerCalicaKristmas KthulhuMan in the Mists
  • LanzLanz Registered User regular
    edited May 27
    shryke wrote: »
    Lanz wrote: »
    .
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Hevach wrote: »
    Shadowhope wrote: »
    While I disagree with some of the specifics, I do agree that the system is functioning exactly as intended. I think that the last decade has shown us that there is no inflection point that will change the minds of half of Americas voters. And I do think that American gun policy is driven far more by the will of Republican voters than it is by even the most bought and paid for American politicians. Things like background checks may poll well, but when the rubber hits the road you have places like Maine voting against them on the ballot. Background checks: literally less popular in practice than Hillary Clinton!

    Pittsburg and Sutherland Springs and the Charleston shootings showed that places of worship weren’t going to be the line that changed people’s minds. Neither was shooting people shopping at Wal-Mart. Vegas and Orlando made clear that body count wasn’t an issue. But that all went without saying: Sandy Hook is all the evidence we need that no blood price is too high for the Republican voters and for the non-voting Americans to change anything any time soon.

    With that said, I do sort of wonder if mass shooters targeted legislatures instead of schools if politicians might start enacting tougher laws, even if unpopular, if only out of self-interest.

    The last time we got meaningful gun control was when a "liberal" shot a Republican president. The time before that was when a bunch of black people armed themselves against white lynch mobs. Before that it was Italians, who had been made technically white in 1893 but were not the right kind of white.

    This was all before January 6 2021, though. I don't know where the line has slid to, but trying to assassinate the Vice President and Republican congressional leadership isn't it anymore.

    these are both in reference to reagan yeah?

    because he was in the capitol as governor when the panthers showed up with their rifles

    not sure if you're getting at the national firearms act or not with the second part, but if so, gun control happened as a result of white anxieties of uncontrollable black populations twice in the last century

    not even like, Last Century last century

    from this date

    EDIT: also i just looked up the dates of the AWB and the later watts riots and i'm going to go out on a limb and say that the assault weapons ban probably had more to do with that than the attempted assassination of ronald reagan almost 15 years previously

    The AWB traces it's roots back to mass shootings in the late 80s to early 90s. What is afaik the first version of what eventually made it into the final bill was introduced in 1989 after a school shooting that killed 5 kids and injured dozens of other people. It kinda floats around for a few years and then eventually Feinstein gets behind it after another mass shooting (this time I believe a workplace one) in California.

    weird how that's still 8 years after the attempted assassination of reagan and 5 years before the passage of the bill, which only happened after everybody was het up over violent super predators

    c'mon man

    It's not weird at all. I literally explained to you how it happened. Things take time in congress. Bills languish for years all the time. You can go fucking read the actual history of the bill if you want rather then spreading conspiracy theories.

    man it passed halfway into clinton's first term the same year as this

    https://www.congress.gov/bill/103rd-congress/house-bill/3355/text

    i lived through this, and remember the racial climate in california at the time

    You just said you were in your 30s so when it passed I hardly think your 9 year old recollection of the times is more accurate then, to pick a random link, NPR:
    in just her second year as a senator, Feinstein took over as chief sponsor of a bill originally offered by Ohio Democrat Howard Metzenbaum in 1989 after a mass shooting on a schoolyard in Stockton, Calif.

    That shooting took the lives of five children and injured 28 others and a teacher.

    Feinstein's resolve to carry this legislation forward was bolstered when eight more people were killed and six injured in another California horror, this time at a law firm in San Francisco.
    https://www.npr.org/2019/08/13/750656174/the-u-s-once-had-a-ban-on-assault-weapons-why-did-it-expire7

    The history of this bill is not that hard to look up. I don't know what you are trying to do here.

    Is there any particular reason we are doubting that there is a distinct correlation between racial animus by the government and the rare passage of gun restrictions in a nation that has, since prior to its inception, has long been plagued with the evil of white supremacy and anti-black animus?

    Particularly when we can also see distinct correlation of gun sales going through the goddamn roof the moment the country elected a black man president?

    This isn’t some kind of “conspiracy theory,” this is just the basic understanding of the intersection of Race and Firearms in America: as long as firearms are seen as the tools of white power, they are allowed to flow freely throughout, even flood, our communities. When black people demonstrate they too can have guns, then America tamps down.

    Because it's not actually based on anything? Maybe instead we should go with the actual history of the law in question. Which I just linked an example of. We don't need random made up conspiracies about how actually it's about some other thing if you just ignore the actual facts and instead go with wild theories based on assumed connections.

    Shryke, you know that isn’t how America actually works. You know how so much of American legal policy uses superficial rationales to paper over racial animus. It’s one of the core defining traits of this country.

    It isn’t a conspiracy to say that America is a racist country, and how race lies at the heart of countless policies. Like, Funsworth is right here; the late 80s and early 90s were a time period filled with the fear and paranoia of a potentially apocalyptic crime wave, particularly infesting urban regions and heavily hued with a racial aspect as to whom the threats to society were. It’s a miasma that permiated society back then, and we can still find it embedded in our media from the time. Even today’s paranoia about rising crime rates carries this paranoia with it.

    At this point as well I think we can even argue that the cop’s response in this issue carries that animus as well. So much of what I’ve seen so far is a heavily white department, policing a town that is heavily Latino. Given what we’ve seen as well about how they’ve handled the political angle, such as that confrontation against Beto the other day when he pressed them for accountability, and I’m pretty sure we can take a guess where they fall regarding a conservative bias.

    Combine that with what we know about how cops by and large across the country have contempt for the communities they police and you have a toxic recipe for disaster.

    Edit: phone I’m begging you to stop converting carries to Carrie’s

    Lanz on
    waNkm4k.jpg?1
    Dee KaeelectricitylikesmeKristmas KthulhuMan in the Mists
  • TarantioTarantio Registered User regular
    Magell wrote: »
    Weird how it just grows exponentially when the Assault Rifle ban expired.

    As convenient as it would be, statistics don't bear it out. Aside from the few states that enacted stricter laws banning any post-94 built AR-15 permanently, all the AWB did was increase the speed they were purchased. Companies removed a few cosmetic features to be in compliance with the ban, and people simply added them back after purchasing the gun because the only prohibition was against selling a gun with them, not possessing one. The Republican boogeyman of "They're going to take your guns" became real and they have not stopped flogging it ever since. The trend continued after the ban because prices decreased. And Obama's presidency caused an increase in purchases far more than the end of the ban did. Why wasn't there an increase in shootings during the ban then? Look at what was happening economically through the mid and late 90s. It was a massively prosperous time. The government actually managed to pass a balanced budget, and briefly had a surplus. The catastrophic income disparity we're currently being crushed under hadn't ramped up yet. Minimum wage, while not at parity with inflation, was still within the realm of a somewhat livable wage. Housing hadn't gone off the rails completely. The tech sector absolutely exploded. You could still graduate college without six figures worth of debt.

    Know what did happen just after the ban ended though? Twitter was created and Facebook became open to everyone, both in 2006. The proliferation of online extremism increased exponentially. The seeds planted with the repeal of Glass-Steagall in 1999 were coming to fruition with the subprime mortgage crisis that was about to wipe out trillions in middle class wealth. We'd gone from a minimum wage that was about 75-80% keeping pace with inflation to one that was closer to 50%. Education was now out of reach for more and more people. The mask came off the Right and they fully embraced eliminating the more than half of the country that doesn't support them. The fractures that had been growing finally managed to break us. Couple that with the refusal by one side and the inability of the other to do anything to keep a gun out of the hands of someone who would do this, and you have our current reality.

    This is a page late, but it's also wrong.

    The Assault Weapons Ban also banned magazines larger than 10 rounds, in addition to aspects of the weapons themselves (of which maybe a handful could be considered cosmetic.)

    It is much easier to kill a lot of people when you don't have to reload as often.

    PreacherMagellGiggles_FunsworthBlackDragon480A Kobold's KoboldArbitraryDescriptorFencingsaxGnizmoStabbity StyleAegeriboogedybooKayne Red RobeShadowhopeLord_AsmodeusGnome-InterruptusElvenshaeSkeithelectricitylikesmeKristmas KthulhuMan in the MistsNitsua
  • Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    Also if they're cosmetic the gun nuts sure got real angry for some reason anyway. Almost like they weren't cosmetic.

    Nyt reporter
    https://mobile.twitter.com/ByMikeBaker/status/1530238057454047232
    Student calls to 911:
    12:03—whispered she's in room 112
    12:10—said multiple dead
    12:13—called again
    12:16—says 8-9 students alive
    12:19—student calls from room 111
    12:21—3 shots heard on call
    12:36—another call
    12:43—asks for police
    12:47—asks for police

    PreacherknitdanFencingsaxAegeriGnome-InterruptusElvenshaeelectricitylikesmeHavelock2.0monikerKristmas KthulhuMan in the Mists
  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    That timeline is fucking unacceptable

    The cops were there

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