As was foretold, we've added advertisements to the forums! If you have questions, or if you encounter any bugs, please visit this thread: https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/240191/forum-advertisement-faq-and-reports-thread/

Uvalde Shooting: 19 elementary school children dead, 2 adults

1272830323372

Posts

  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    Restrictions work, yeah sure gun nuts know how to get around them, but this kid necessarily wouldn't have been able to. I hate the "we can't fix everything there fore anything is a waste of time." Restricting mag size is a big thing that helps prevent *sigh* the casual mass murderer.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    pleasepaypreacher.net
    MorganVGnome-InterruptusElvenshaeMr RayelectricitylikesmeCalicamonikerMan in the Mists
  • LanzLanz Registered User regular
    edited May 27
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Also if they're cosmetic the gun nuts sure got real angry for some reason anyway. Almost like they weren't cosmetic.

    Nyt reporter
    https://mobile.twitter.com/ByMikeBaker/status/1530238057454047232
    Student calls to 911:
    12:03—whispered she's in room 112
    12:10—said multiple dead
    12:13—called again
    12:16—says 8-9 students alive
    12:19—student calls from room 111
    12:21—3 shots heard on call
    12:36—another call
    12:43—asks for police
    12:47—asks for police

    I feel it was around… aurora maybe wher e you had experts talking about how he was able to kill so many people, and one of the things they pointed to was that the power of the rounds an AR can utilize could punch through the walls of the theatre and strike people in the adjoining room

    To say nothing of all the doctors who have described just what rounds an AR uses compared to your average pistol calibers do to human tissue

    Like you infer, the “cosmetic” aspect has always been bullshit. These things are designed in every way to be efficient at the job of killing humans, from the ease of use to the caliber of rounds they chamber

    Lanz on
    waNkm4k.jpg?1
    joshofalltradesnever dieMatevDee KaeElvenshaeGnome-InterruptuselectricitylikesmeCalicamonikerKristmas KthulhuMan in the MistsNitsua
  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited May 27
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Also if they're cosmetic the gun nuts sure got real angry for some reason anyway. Almost like they weren't cosmetic.

    Speaking as a former gun nut, cosmetic changes will piss people off. Especially when part of the allure of owning an AR-15 pattern rifle is that it looks like the rifle soldiers carry. Putting a thumbhole stock on it diminishes that significantly, even if the impact to deadliness is minimal (one of the guns used at Columbine was a thumbhole stock ban-compliant carbine). I’ve made this argument repeatedly, on this very forum.

    Now, here’s the thing. I’m not a gun nut anymore. But I still feel the same on this…the difference being that I now actively value reducing the allure of weapons like these. I think if making these guns look stupid and less “authentic” means less of them sell means they’re marginally less available, then good. That’s a win and nothing of value was lost.

    Because they’re not fucking toys and I care not one bit about how collectors and hobbyists feel about the authenticity of their firearms. Which should just be banned entirely anyway.

    Also, every blow to the hobby and every step to make guns less cool is one small incremental step toward maybe changing how our broader society sees them, and real change.

    Edit: Magazine sizes aren’t cosmetic, mind. I’m talking about a lot of the other requirements that largely were. The actual impact to deadliness from barrel shrouds and pistol grips is nonzero…but pretty close to zero. But gun nuts hate these restrictions because now their gun doesn’t *look* like the one seal team six used to kill bin laden or whatever. It’ll still kill unarmed kids just as well though.

    mcdermott on
    Giggles_FunsworthBlackDragon480zagdroboverride367FencingsaxDocGnizmoMatevDracomicronStabbity StyleAegeriKayne Red RobeElvenshaeGnome-InterruptuselectricitylikesmeForarmarajiCalicaKristmas Kthulhu
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Lanz wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Lanz wrote: »
    .
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Hevach wrote: »
    Shadowhope wrote: »
    While I disagree with some of the specifics, I do agree that the system is functioning exactly as intended. I think that the last decade has shown us that there is no inflection point that will change the minds of half of Americas voters. And I do think that American gun policy is driven far more by the will of Republican voters than it is by even the most bought and paid for American politicians. Things like background checks may poll well, but when the rubber hits the road you have places like Maine voting against them on the ballot. Background checks: literally less popular in practice than Hillary Clinton!

    Pittsburg and Sutherland Springs and the Charleston shootings showed that places of worship weren’t going to be the line that changed people’s minds. Neither was shooting people shopping at Wal-Mart. Vegas and Orlando made clear that body count wasn’t an issue. But that all went without saying: Sandy Hook is all the evidence we need that no blood price is too high for the Republican voters and for the non-voting Americans to change anything any time soon.

    With that said, I do sort of wonder if mass shooters targeted legislatures instead of schools if politicians might start enacting tougher laws, even if unpopular, if only out of self-interest.

    The last time we got meaningful gun control was when a "liberal" shot a Republican president. The time before that was when a bunch of black people armed themselves against white lynch mobs. Before that it was Italians, who had been made technically white in 1893 but were not the right kind of white.

    This was all before January 6 2021, though. I don't know where the line has slid to, but trying to assassinate the Vice President and Republican congressional leadership isn't it anymore.

    these are both in reference to reagan yeah?

    because he was in the capitol as governor when the panthers showed up with their rifles

    not sure if you're getting at the national firearms act or not with the second part, but if so, gun control happened as a result of white anxieties of uncontrollable black populations twice in the last century

    not even like, Last Century last century

    from this date

    EDIT: also i just looked up the dates of the AWB and the later watts riots and i'm going to go out on a limb and say that the assault weapons ban probably had more to do with that than the attempted assassination of ronald reagan almost 15 years previously

    The AWB traces it's roots back to mass shootings in the late 80s to early 90s. What is afaik the first version of what eventually made it into the final bill was introduced in 1989 after a school shooting that killed 5 kids and injured dozens of other people. It kinda floats around for a few years and then eventually Feinstein gets behind it after another mass shooting (this time I believe a workplace one) in California.

    weird how that's still 8 years after the attempted assassination of reagan and 5 years before the passage of the bill, which only happened after everybody was het up over violent super predators

    c'mon man

    It's not weird at all. I literally explained to you how it happened. Things take time in congress. Bills languish for years all the time. You can go fucking read the actual history of the bill if you want rather then spreading conspiracy theories.

    man it passed halfway into clinton's first term the same year as this

    https://www.congress.gov/bill/103rd-congress/house-bill/3355/text

    i lived through this, and remember the racial climate in california at the time

    You just said you were in your 30s so when it passed I hardly think your 9 year old recollection of the times is more accurate then, to pick a random link, NPR:
    in just her second year as a senator, Feinstein took over as chief sponsor of a bill originally offered by Ohio Democrat Howard Metzenbaum in 1989 after a mass shooting on a schoolyard in Stockton, Calif.

    That shooting took the lives of five children and injured 28 others and a teacher.

    Feinstein's resolve to carry this legislation forward was bolstered when eight more people were killed and six injured in another California horror, this time at a law firm in San Francisco.
    https://www.npr.org/2019/08/13/750656174/the-u-s-once-had-a-ban-on-assault-weapons-why-did-it-expire7

    The history of this bill is not that hard to look up. I don't know what you are trying to do here.

    Is there any particular reason we are doubting that there is a distinct correlation between racial animus by the government and the rare passage of gun restrictions in a nation that has, since prior to its inception, has long been plagued with the evil of white supremacy and anti-black animus?

    Particularly when we can also see distinct correlation of gun sales going through the goddamn roof the moment the country elected a black man president?

    This isn’t some kind of “conspiracy theory,” this is just the basic understanding of the intersection of Race and Firearms in America: as long as firearms are seen as the tools of white power, they are allowed to flow freely throughout, even flood, our communities. When black people demonstrate they too can have guns, then America tamps down.

    Because it's not actually based on anything? Maybe instead we should go with the actual history of the law in question. Which I just linked an example of. We don't need random made up conspiracies about how actually it's about some other thing if you just ignore the actual facts and instead go with wild theories based on assumed connections.

    Shryke, you know that isn’t how America actually works. You know how so much of American legal policy uses superficial rationales to paper over racial animus. It’s one of the core defining traits of this country.

    It isn’t a conspiracy to say that America is a racist country, and how race lies at the heart of countless policies. Like, Funsworth is right here; the late 80s and early 90s were a time period filled with the fear and paranoia of a potentially apocalyptic crime wave, particularly infesting urban regions and heavily hued with a racial aspect as to whom the threats to society were. It’s a miasma that permiated society back then, and we can still find it embedded in our media from the time. Even today’s paranoia about rising crime rates carries this paranoia with it.

    At this point as well I think we can even argue that the cop’s response in this issue carries that animus as well. So much of what I’ve seen so far is a heavily white department, policing a town that is heavily Latino. Given what we’ve seen as well about how they’ve handled the political angle, such as that confrontation against Beto the other day when he pressed them for accountability, and I’m pretty sure we can take a guess where they fall regarding a conservative bias.

    Combine that with what we know about how cops by and large across the country have contempt for the communities they police and you have a toxic recipe for disaster.

    Edit: phone I’m begging you to stop converting carries to Carrie’s

    What I'm talking about is how america is working literally right now. Another mass shooting just happened and there's another push for doing something about the availability of guns. Just like there was when the AWB passed back in the 90s. It's pretty simple.

    You don't need to start connecting photos with strings on a corkboard to explain this. It's the same thing that's still happening now and you can just fucking read about it by looking up the history of the bill. I don't know why y'all feel the need to invent entirely different explanations for this then the obvious one that's written everywhere you look.

  • Giggles_FunsworthGiggles_Funsworth Blight on Discourse Bay Area SprawlRegistered User regular
    edited May 27
    Tarantio wrote: »
    Magell wrote: »
    Weird how it just grows exponentially when the Assault Rifle ban expired.

    As convenient as it would be, statistics don't bear it out. Aside from the few states that enacted stricter laws banning any post-94 built AR-15 permanently, all the AWB did was increase the speed they were purchased. Companies removed a few cosmetic features to be in compliance with the ban, and people simply added them back after purchasing the gun because the only prohibition was against selling a gun with them, not possessing one. The Republican boogeyman of "They're going to take your guns" became real and they have not stopped flogging it ever since. The trend continued after the ban because prices decreased. And Obama's presidency caused an increase in purchases far more than the end of the ban did. Why wasn't there an increase in shootings during the ban then? Look at what was happening economically through the mid and late 90s. It was a massively prosperous time. The government actually managed to pass a balanced budget, and briefly had a surplus. The catastrophic income disparity we're currently being crushed under hadn't ramped up yet. Minimum wage, while not at parity with inflation, was still within the realm of a somewhat livable wage. Housing hadn't gone off the rails completely. The tech sector absolutely exploded. You could still graduate college without six figures worth of debt.

    Know what did happen just after the ban ended though? Twitter was created and Facebook became open to everyone, both in 2006. The proliferation of online extremism increased exponentially. The seeds planted with the repeal of Glass-Steagall in 1999 were coming to fruition with the subprime mortgage crisis that was about to wipe out trillions in middle class wealth. We'd gone from a minimum wage that was about 75-80% keeping pace with inflation to one that was closer to 50%. Education was now out of reach for more and more people. The mask came off the Right and they fully embraced eliminating the more than half of the country that doesn't support them. The fractures that had been growing finally managed to break us. Couple that with the refusal by one side and the inability of the other to do anything to keep a gun out of the hands of someone who would do this, and you have our current reality.

    This is a page late, but it's also wrong.

    The Assault Weapons Ban also banned magazines larger than 10 rounds, in addition to aspects of the weapons themselves (of which maybe a handful could be considered cosmetic.)

    It is much easier to kill a lot of people when you don't have to reload as often.

    i'm pretty fucking against most gun control in the current political climate, because i worry about unilaterally disarming on the eve of american kristallnacht, but this is bang on, and about the only part of my views on gun control that hasn't shifted in the last 10 years

    like i said previously when i was discussing best practices for responding to an active shooter, most spree shootings are interrupted during a reload

    unfortunately, the reason why i'm not against this is because it's easy enough to acquire or manufacture higher capacity magazines in the event of open partisan violence, and it's still incredibly possible to kill a lot of people with ten rounds if you train and you're smart about it, even on your own

    this hypothesis was unfortunately borne out with the other recent spree shooting in new york

    there's really not a simple lever you can pull to unfuck this country with the current levels of hatred, organized christofascists, and proliferation of firearms

    it would have been the same as some other countries if we'd done this 20 or 30 years ago, but instead we passed laws that were mostly aimed at preventing racial minorities from utilizing their right to self defense

    i really wish i had a better answer, i fucking hate guns and i miss when the only shooting i did was my recurve with field points, i don't know how anybody finds firearms calming

    edit: also wanna clarify, just because there isn't a simple lever doesn't mean that there isn't any solution, just that systemic problems require systemic solutions

    the first step, as mentioned previously, is seriously researching the problem so we can actually understand the system we're trying to modify

    Giggles_Funsworth on
    DarkPrimus
  • mrondeaumrondeau Montréal, CanadaRegistered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Also if they're cosmetic the gun nuts sure got real angry for some reason anyway. Almost like they weren't cosmetic.

    Speaking as a former gun nut, cosmetic changes will piss people off. Especially when part of the allure of owning an AR-15 pattern rifle is that it looks like the rifle soldiers carry. Putting a thumbhole stock on it diminishes that significantly, even if the impact to deadliness is minimal (one of the guns used at Columbine was a thumbhole stock ban-compliant carbine). I’ve made this argument repeatedly, on this very forum.

    Now, here’s the thing. I’m not a gun nut anymore. But I still feel the same on this…the difference being that I now actively value reducing the allure of weapons like these. I think if making these guns look stupid and less “authentic” means less of them sell means they’re marginally less available, then good. That’s a win and nothing of value was lost.

    Because they’re not fucking toys and I care not one bit about how collectors and hobbyists feel about the authenticity of their firearms. Which should just be banned entirely anyway.

    Also, every blow to the hobby and every step to make guns less cool is one small incremental step toward maybe changing how our broader society sees them, and real change.

    I'm fairly certain we had that exact argument at some point after some previous shooting.

    Which is rather depressing.

  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited May 27
    mrondeau wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Also if they're cosmetic the gun nuts sure got real angry for some reason anyway. Almost like they weren't cosmetic.

    Speaking as a former gun nut, cosmetic changes will piss people off. Especially when part of the allure of owning an AR-15 pattern rifle is that it looks like the rifle soldiers carry. Putting a thumbhole stock on it diminishes that significantly, even if the impact to deadliness is minimal (one of the guns used at Columbine was a thumbhole stock ban-compliant carbine). I’ve made this argument repeatedly, on this very forum.

    Now, here’s the thing. I’m not a gun nut anymore. But I still feel the same on this…the difference being that I now actively value reducing the allure of weapons like these. I think if making these guns look stupid and less “authentic” means less of them sell means they’re marginally less available, then good. That’s a win and nothing of value was lost.

    Because they’re not fucking toys and I care not one bit about how collectors and hobbyists feel about the authenticity of their firearms. Which should just be banned entirely anyway.

    Also, every blow to the hobby and every step to make guns less cool is one small incremental step toward maybe changing how our broader society sees them, and real change.

    I'm fairly certain we had that exact argument at some point after some previous shooting.

    Which is rather depressing.

    We absolutely did. I was absolutely the guy arguing that banning pistol grips was unacceptable because it wouldn’t save kids in those past threads.

    I still argue that banning pistol grips won’t save kids. Buts is crucial and necessary, because anything we can do to make guns less sexy means less guns and less gun culture.

    I hope we can come together on the second part, rather than quibbling about the first.

    Edit: Like seriously, it’s a joke in gun circles that AR-15 pattern rifles are just “Barbie for men.” Gun guys…including myself when I was one…are all about the cosmetics. They’re super important.

    mcdermott on
    electricitylikesmeAntinumeric
  • mrondeaumrondeau Montréal, CanadaRegistered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    mrondeau wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Also if they're cosmetic the gun nuts sure got real angry for some reason anyway. Almost like they weren't cosmetic.

    Speaking as a former gun nut, cosmetic changes will piss people off. Especially when part of the allure of owning an AR-15 pattern rifle is that it looks like the rifle soldiers carry. Putting a thumbhole stock on it diminishes that significantly, even if the impact to deadliness is minimal (one of the guns used at Columbine was a thumbhole stock ban-compliant carbine). I’ve made this argument repeatedly, on this very forum.

    Now, here’s the thing. I’m not a gun nut anymore. But I still feel the same on this…the difference being that I now actively value reducing the allure of weapons like these. I think if making these guns look stupid and less “authentic” means less of them sell means they’re marginally less available, then good. That’s a win and nothing of value was lost.

    Because they’re not fucking toys and I care not one bit about how collectors and hobbyists feel about the authenticity of their firearms. Which should just be banned entirely anyway.

    Also, every blow to the hobby and every step to make guns less cool is one small incremental step toward maybe changing how our broader society sees them, and real change.

    I'm fairly certain we had that exact argument at some point after some previous shooting.

    Which is rather depressing.

    We absolutely did. I was absolutely the guy arguing that banning pistol grips was unacceptable because it wouldn’t save kids in those past threads.

    I still argue that banning pistol grips won’t save kids. Buts is crucial and necessary, because anything we can do to make guns less sexy means less guns and less gun culture.

    I hope we can come together on the second part, rather than quibbling about the first.

    My point was that it's depressing that the same argument is still relevant after so long, not that we agree now.

    Giggles_FunsworthKristmas KthulhuMan in the Mistsmaraji
  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    I do have to say the look of rifles does seem incredibly important from just having been in gaming as long as I have been. The complaints about war games not having the right pretty princess guns gets people super angry.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    pleasepaypreacher.net
    mcdermottBlackDragon480Giggles_FunsworthshrykezagdrobknitdanDoodmannFencingsaxKetarDark_Sidechrono_travellerLostNinjanever dieOneAngryPossumMatevShadowfireTynnanStabbity StyleAegeriboogedybooKayne Red RobeShadowhopeLord_AsmodeusElvenshaeSkeithelectricitylikesmeHavelock2.0EinzelMr RayTicaldfjammonikerKristmas KthulhuTransporterMan in the MistsNitsuamaraji
  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited May 27
    mrondeau wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    mrondeau wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Also if they're cosmetic the gun nuts sure got real angry for some reason anyway. Almost like they weren't cosmetic.

    Speaking as a former gun nut, cosmetic changes will piss people off. Especially when part of the allure of owning an AR-15 pattern rifle is that it looks like the rifle soldiers carry. Putting a thumbhole stock on it diminishes that significantly, even if the impact to deadliness is minimal (one of the guns used at Columbine was a thumbhole stock ban-compliant carbine). I’ve made this argument repeatedly, on this very forum.

    Now, here’s the thing. I’m not a gun nut anymore. But I still feel the same on this…the difference being that I now actively value reducing the allure of weapons like these. I think if making these guns look stupid and less “authentic” means less of them sell means they’re marginally less available, then good. That’s a win and nothing of value was lost.

    Because they’re not fucking toys and I care not one bit about how collectors and hobbyists feel about the authenticity of their firearms. Which should just be banned entirely anyway.

    Also, every blow to the hobby and every step to make guns less cool is one small incremental step toward maybe changing how our broader society sees them, and real change.

    I'm fairly certain we had that exact argument at some point after some previous shooting.

    Which is rather depressing.

    We absolutely did. I was absolutely the guy arguing that banning pistol grips was unacceptable because it wouldn’t save kids in those past threads.

    I still argue that banning pistol grips won’t save kids. Buts is crucial and necessary, because anything we can do to make guns less sexy means less guns and less gun culture.

    I hope we can come together on the second part, rather than quibbling about the first.

    My point was that it's depressing that the same argument is still relevant after so long, not that we agree now.

    Oh for sure. It really feels like zero progress has been made on this issue in the last decade and a half. Absolutely none.

    Edit: I’ll take a moment to acknowledge, again, that I am part of the reason for that. Or at least I was.

    mcdermott on
  • Jealous DevaJealous Deva Registered User regular
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Also if they're cosmetic the gun nuts sure got real angry for some reason anyway. Almost like they weren't cosmetic.

    Nyt reporter
    https://mobile.twitter.com/ByMikeBaker/status/1530238057454047232
    Student calls to 911:
    12:03—whispered she's in room 112
    12:10—said multiple dead
    12:13—called again
    12:16—says 8-9 students alive
    12:19—student calls from room 111
    12:21—3 shots heard on call
    12:36—another call
    12:43—asks for police
    12:47—asks for police

    Its not even that.

    Officers were on the scene before the shooter entered the school.

    Like the shooter shot at a funeral home 10 minutes before entering the school, police cars were in the school parking lot, and somehow this guy just snuck around them with an assault rifle and got into a classroom.

    Unbelievable.

    Gnome-InterruptusNitsua
  • LanzLanz Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Lanz wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Lanz wrote: »
    .
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Hevach wrote: »
    Shadowhope wrote: »
    While I disagree with some of the specifics, I do agree that the system is functioning exactly as intended. I think that the last decade has shown us that there is no inflection point that will change the minds of half of Americas voters. And I do think that American gun policy is driven far more by the will of Republican voters than it is by even the most bought and paid for American politicians. Things like background checks may poll well, but when the rubber hits the road you have places like Maine voting against them on the ballot. Background checks: literally less popular in practice than Hillary Clinton!

    Pittsburg and Sutherland Springs and the Charleston shootings showed that places of worship weren’t going to be the line that changed people’s minds. Neither was shooting people shopping at Wal-Mart. Vegas and Orlando made clear that body count wasn’t an issue. But that all went without saying: Sandy Hook is all the evidence we need that no blood price is too high for the Republican voters and for the non-voting Americans to change anything any time soon.

    With that said, I do sort of wonder if mass shooters targeted legislatures instead of schools if politicians might start enacting tougher laws, even if unpopular, if only out of self-interest.

    The last time we got meaningful gun control was when a "liberal" shot a Republican president. The time before that was when a bunch of black people armed themselves against white lynch mobs. Before that it was Italians, who had been made technically white in 1893 but were not the right kind of white.

    This was all before January 6 2021, though. I don't know where the line has slid to, but trying to assassinate the Vice President and Republican congressional leadership isn't it anymore.

    these are both in reference to reagan yeah?

    because he was in the capitol as governor when the panthers showed up with their rifles

    not sure if you're getting at the national firearms act or not with the second part, but if so, gun control happened as a result of white anxieties of uncontrollable black populations twice in the last century

    not even like, Last Century last century

    from this date

    EDIT: also i just looked up the dates of the AWB and the later watts riots and i'm going to go out on a limb and say that the assault weapons ban probably had more to do with that than the attempted assassination of ronald reagan almost 15 years previously

    The AWB traces it's roots back to mass shootings in the late 80s to early 90s. What is afaik the first version of what eventually made it into the final bill was introduced in 1989 after a school shooting that killed 5 kids and injured dozens of other people. It kinda floats around for a few years and then eventually Feinstein gets behind it after another mass shooting (this time I believe a workplace one) in California.

    weird how that's still 8 years after the attempted assassination of reagan and 5 years before the passage of the bill, which only happened after everybody was het up over violent super predators

    c'mon man

    It's not weird at all. I literally explained to you how it happened. Things take time in congress. Bills languish for years all the time. You can go fucking read the actual history of the bill if you want rather then spreading conspiracy theories.

    man it passed halfway into clinton's first term the same year as this

    https://www.congress.gov/bill/103rd-congress/house-bill/3355/text

    i lived through this, and remember the racial climate in california at the time

    You just said you were in your 30s so when it passed I hardly think your 9 year old recollection of the times is more accurate then, to pick a random link, NPR:
    in just her second year as a senator, Feinstein took over as chief sponsor of a bill originally offered by Ohio Democrat Howard Metzenbaum in 1989 after a mass shooting on a schoolyard in Stockton, Calif.

    That shooting took the lives of five children and injured 28 others and a teacher.

    Feinstein's resolve to carry this legislation forward was bolstered when eight more people were killed and six injured in another California horror, this time at a law firm in San Francisco.
    https://www.npr.org/2019/08/13/750656174/the-u-s-once-had-a-ban-on-assault-weapons-why-did-it-expire7

    The history of this bill is not that hard to look up. I don't know what you are trying to do here.

    Is there any particular reason we are doubting that there is a distinct correlation between racial animus by the government and the rare passage of gun restrictions in a nation that has, since prior to its inception, has long been plagued with the evil of white supremacy and anti-black animus?

    Particularly when we can also see distinct correlation of gun sales going through the goddamn roof the moment the country elected a black man president?

    This isn’t some kind of “conspiracy theory,” this is just the basic understanding of the intersection of Race and Firearms in America: as long as firearms are seen as the tools of white power, they are allowed to flow freely throughout, even flood, our communities. When black people demonstrate they too can have guns, then America tamps down.

    Because it's not actually based on anything? Maybe instead we should go with the actual history of the law in question. Which I just linked an example of. We don't need random made up conspiracies about how actually it's about some other thing if you just ignore the actual facts and instead go with wild theories based on assumed connections.

    Shryke, you know that isn’t how America actually works. You know how so much of American legal policy uses superficial rationales to paper over racial animus. It’s one of the core defining traits of this country.

    It isn’t a conspiracy to say that America is a racist country, and how race lies at the heart of countless policies. Like, Funsworth is right here; the late 80s and early 90s were a time period filled with the fear and paranoia of a potentially apocalyptic crime wave, particularly infesting urban regions and heavily hued with a racial aspect as to whom the threats to society were. It’s a miasma that permiated society back then, and we can still find it embedded in our media from the time. Even today’s paranoia about rising crime rates carries this paranoia with it.

    At this point as well I think we can even argue that the cop’s response in this issue carries that animus as well. So much of what I’ve seen so far is a heavily white department, policing a town that is heavily Latino. Given what we’ve seen as well about how they’ve handled the political angle, such as that confrontation against Beto the other day when he pressed them for accountability, and I’m pretty sure we can take a guess where they fall regarding a conservative bias.

    Combine that with what we know about how cops by and large across the country have contempt for the communities they police and you have a toxic recipe for disaster.

    Edit: phone I’m begging you to stop converting carries to Carrie’s

    What I'm talking about is how america is working literally right now. Another mass shooting just happened and there's another push for doing something about the availability of guns. Just like there was when the AWB passed back in the 90s. It's pretty simple.

    You don't need to start connecting photos with strings on a corkboard to explain this. It's the same thing that's still happening now and you can just fucking read about it by looking up the history of the bill. I don't know why y'all feel the need to invent entirely different explanations for this then the obvious one that's written everywhere you look.

    Because you cannot divorce politics from the culture in which politics occur

    That is I think where the disconnect is coming in; it feels like you’re basically relying on just the legislative history of the bill going through DC, and neglecting the culture of America which influenced how it made its way through. You need a more holistic approach.

    waNkm4k.jpg?1
    electricitylikesmeMan in the MistsBandable
  • GvzbgulGvzbgul Registered User regular
    [
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Since yesterday I’ve come around on the “focusing on police ineptitude is a problem” thing. I definitely always acknowledged it as a tangent, but based on my social media feed criticism of the police response does appear to have sucked all the air out of the conversation about the actual issue, guns.

    Not talking about this thread, we’re all capable of walking and chewing gum. But color me unsurprised if it came out later that gun companies spent some nonzero amount of dollars astroturfing some “man, these cops m i rite” messaging across social media to distract from any actual conversation on gun control.

    Though if yellow line stickers become a thing, I won’t complain.
    It's so emotional I think it's going to be incredibly effective at boosting gun sales. I mean, ideally, you ought to be able to rely on police for protection, not on a gun. That's the social contract. But scared parents, faced with the inept police response, will turn to guns for comfort.

    mcdermott
  • SyphonBlueSyphonBlue Registered User regular
    Nobeard wrote: »
    I am now suspicious that some cop did charge in but instead of shooting the gunman he shot and killed a couple kids and that’s why the outside cops were so adamant on keeping anyone else from getting in, including parents and other departments.



    NBC News Correspondent NEW: Texas law enforcement officials at a press conference say they believe that all the children that were shot and killed in Uvalde, TX were shot by Salvador Ramos and not anyone else [i.e. law enforcement].

    Yeah that's uh...that's exactly what happened

    LxX6eco.jpg
    PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
    MagellBlackDragon480NobeardRhesus PositiveAegeriElvenshaethatassemblyguyelectricitylikesmeHavelock2.0monikerKristmas KthulhuMan in the MistsmarajiBullhead
  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    I’m glad to see some of y’all out of the “numb to this” feeling

    We should never accept this as something that “just happens sometimes”

    These kids deserved better

    I have moved firmly into ‘end the second amendment within my lifetime’ territory. It’s a fantasy, but I’m sick of letting idiots and cultists define this argument. Every day we keep the second amendment, we are choosing a sad power fantasy over innocent lives.

    In short- and medium-term fantasy land, a buyback/amnesty period followed by intense penalties for possession. Any access to a firearm requires a lengthy training course, background and mental health screening, proof of safe storage capacity, regular checks of your home to verify storage practices, multiple current references updated annually, and the notarized signature of everybody you have lived with or been in a significant relationship with for the past few years. You want to own any gun, you better be on your best behavior for a long fucking time. And that gets you a single-shot rifle or shotgun, no handguns, nothing semi-automatic.

    The FBI can follow the record industry’s lead from the 90s and leak bad 3D prints of ghost guns that overheat and destroy your printer. Bonus points if they can devise a mechanism that results in near-permanent resin stains on the attempted user.

    I just don’t care about these people or trying to convince them any more. The only thing they fear is losing their fucking guns, so fuck it, take them. They can’t get worse than 40,000 dead a year, and the world can’t be better until they’ve been disarmed. Make it the police’s primary job for the next couple decades to seize and destroy guns, with constant federal oversight.

    There will be blowback, because these people worship death, but you’d need a hell of a lot of blowback for it to compare to the losses every day of our current situation brings.

    Edit: I’m sure there are a hundred flaws to every step in this, even beyond the sheer fantasy of it being feasible at all. Thankfully the bar for success is low enough to functionally not exist.

    tbf, i'm in my thirties, and i've been doing my best to position myself and my community in such a way that we'll survive whatever's coming together since 2016

    idk about y'all, but i plan to see the other side of the jackpot and i think it's entirely possible that after all that chaos and conflict we might find a more peaceful and equitable state of being

    it's also entirely possible that things just keep getting more and more dystopic, but the worse everything gets the more susceptible all these structures get to collapse

    crisis is opportunity, if we plan and react wisely

    I am not sure it's possible to come up with a worse take than "All these dead kids sure will help me realize my political agenda", but let me just stop you right there before you attempt to top yourself, bucko.

    Maddie: "I named my feet. The left one is flip and the right one is flop. Oh, and also I named my flip-flops."
    joshofalltradesPreachershrykezagdrobronzoNobodyFencingsaxQanamilGnizmoKnuckle DraggerShadowfireMorganVTynnanLabelStabbity StyleAegeriboogedybooKayne Red RobeLord_AsmodeusElvenshaeGnome-InterruptusDacForarTicaldfjamAridholmonikerMan in the MistsBullhead
  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited May 27
    Preacher wrote: »
    I do have to say the look of rifles does seem incredibly important from just having been in gaming as long as I have been. The complaints about war games not having the right pretty princess guns gets people super angry.

    It’s also why you see dumb shit like AR and AK style conversion kits for .22 rifles. Because it is very much grown children playing with toys. Sometimes that’s couched in “history” and “collecting,” and some of that is genuine. But that still largely comes down to wanting to own cool looking guns because they’re cool, and not effectiveness.

    That is a culture we absolutely have to kill.

    Hell, even one of the couple guns I still have I have because it’s “cool,” but it’s a lever action cowboy gun instead of a modern military rifle. It also has sentimental value to me (it was my dad’s, who is no longer with us), which is the only reason I probably won’t get rid of it unless I’m forced to.

    I’ll still happily hand it in should we finally come to our senses as a nation.

    Edit: Actually, I’d much prefer an option to permanently disable it. It’ll make a very pretty decoration even if it can’t fire.

    mcdermott on
    electricitylikesmemaraji
  • ToxTox I kill threads he/himRegistered User regular
    SyphonBlue wrote: »
    Nobeard wrote: »
    I am now suspicious that some cop did charge in but instead of shooting the gunman he shot and killed a couple kids and that’s why the outside cops were so adamant on keeping anyone else from getting in, including parents and other departments.



    NBC News Correspondent NEW: Texas law enforcement officials at a press conference say they believe that all the children that were shot and killed in Uvalde, TX were shot by Salvador Ramos and not anyone else [i.e. law enforcement].

    Yeah that's uh...that's exactly what happened

    *58 magazines* found at the school.

    18-year-old bought 1,657 bullets.

    Those are definitely a lot of cop magazines. I don't even know how you carry that many mags unless you just have a loose sack of them.

    Steven Dennis is a reporter for Bloomberg, Robert Evans is a reporter for BellingCat and a podcaster.

    The cops murdered children that day

    BlackDragon480DoodmannNobeardMatevGnome-InterruptusDark Raven XTicaldfjamBucketman
  • Giggles_FunsworthGiggles_Funsworth Blight on Discourse Bay Area SprawlRegistered User regular
    edited May 27
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    I’m glad to see some of y’all out of the “numb to this” feeling

    We should never accept this as something that “just happens sometimes”

    These kids deserved better

    I have moved firmly into ‘end the second amendment within my lifetime’ territory. It’s a fantasy, but I’m sick of letting idiots and cultists define this argument. Every day we keep the second amendment, we are choosing a sad power fantasy over innocent lives.

    In short- and medium-term fantasy land, a buyback/amnesty period followed by intense penalties for possession. Any access to a firearm requires a lengthy training course, background and mental health screening, proof of safe storage capacity, regular checks of your home to verify storage practices, multiple current references updated annually, and the notarized signature of everybody you have lived with or been in a significant relationship with for the past few years. You want to own any gun, you better be on your best behavior for a long fucking time. And that gets you a single-shot rifle or shotgun, no handguns, nothing semi-automatic.

    The FBI can follow the record industry’s lead from the 90s and leak bad 3D prints of ghost guns that overheat and destroy your printer. Bonus points if they can devise a mechanism that results in near-permanent resin stains on the attempted user.

    I just don’t care about these people or trying to convince them any more. The only thing they fear is losing their fucking guns, so fuck it, take them. They can’t get worse than 40,000 dead a year, and the world can’t be better until they’ve been disarmed. Make it the police’s primary job for the next couple decades to seize and destroy guns, with constant federal oversight.

    There will be blowback, because these people worship death, but you’d need a hell of a lot of blowback for it to compare to the losses every day of our current situation brings.

    Edit: I’m sure there are a hundred flaws to every step in this, even beyond the sheer fantasy of it being feasible at all. Thankfully the bar for success is low enough to functionally not exist.

    tbf, i'm in my thirties, and i've been doing my best to position myself and my community in such a way that we'll survive whatever's coming together since 2016

    idk about y'all, but i plan to see the other side of the jackpot and i think it's entirely possible that after all that chaos and conflict we might find a more peaceful and equitable state of being

    it's also entirely possible that things just keep getting more and more dystopic, but the worse everything gets the more susceptible all these structures get to collapse

    crisis is opportunity, if we plan and react wisely

    I am not sure it's possible to come up with a worse take than "All these dead kids sure will help me realize my political agenda", but let me just stop you right there before you attempt to top yourself, bucko.

    it's always too soon to talk about how all these spree shooters are extremely politically motivated and usually pretty fascist for some reason i guess

    and half the posts in this thread are about using this event to pass gun control, mine isn't any different, i'm trying to encourage people to avoid despair, crises are when change happens

    edit: in less words, i am literally saying i think we can end the second amendment within my lifetime with that post

    Giggles_Funsworth on
    Metzger MeisterFeralLanzTefDee KaeMan in the MistsYamiB.
  • Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    edited May 27
    I guess it's not surprising but one thing I noticed in this article was the affirm/klarna style buy now pay later financing option for the rifle in question

    apparently its from a company called Credova that specializes in "tactical" purchases as well as outdoorsy stuff

    rando, but that answers how he was able to afford the guns. The "small loan" places offer payment plans for lots of stuff, and in this case that includes guns. If you're planning on murdering a bunch of people and then dying hey, free guns!

    also this is, well

    Phoenix-D on
    MagellBlackDragon480shrykedurandal4532FencingsaxToxchrono_travellerStabbity StyleElvenshaeGnome-InterruptusmarajiBucketman
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited May 27
    Lanz wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Lanz wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Lanz wrote: »
    .
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Hevach wrote: »
    Shadowhope wrote: »
    While I disagree with some of the specifics, I do agree that the system is functioning exactly as intended. I think that the last decade has shown us that there is no inflection point that will change the minds of half of Americas voters. And I do think that American gun policy is driven far more by the will of Republican voters than it is by even the most bought and paid for American politicians. Things like background checks may poll well, but when the rubber hits the road you have places like Maine voting against them on the ballot. Background checks: literally less popular in practice than Hillary Clinton!

    Pittsburg and Sutherland Springs and the Charleston shootings showed that places of worship weren’t going to be the line that changed people’s minds. Neither was shooting people shopping at Wal-Mart. Vegas and Orlando made clear that body count wasn’t an issue. But that all went without saying: Sandy Hook is all the evidence we need that no blood price is too high for the Republican voters and for the non-voting Americans to change anything any time soon.

    With that said, I do sort of wonder if mass shooters targeted legislatures instead of schools if politicians might start enacting tougher laws, even if unpopular, if only out of self-interest.

    The last time we got meaningful gun control was when a "liberal" shot a Republican president. The time before that was when a bunch of black people armed themselves against white lynch mobs. Before that it was Italians, who had been made technically white in 1893 but were not the right kind of white.

    This was all before January 6 2021, though. I don't know where the line has slid to, but trying to assassinate the Vice President and Republican congressional leadership isn't it anymore.

    these are both in reference to reagan yeah?

    because he was in the capitol as governor when the panthers showed up with their rifles

    not sure if you're getting at the national firearms act or not with the second part, but if so, gun control happened as a result of white anxieties of uncontrollable black populations twice in the last century

    not even like, Last Century last century

    from this date

    EDIT: also i just looked up the dates of the AWB and the later watts riots and i'm going to go out on a limb and say that the assault weapons ban probably had more to do with that than the attempted assassination of ronald reagan almost 15 years previously

    The AWB traces it's roots back to mass shootings in the late 80s to early 90s. What is afaik the first version of what eventually made it into the final bill was introduced in 1989 after a school shooting that killed 5 kids and injured dozens of other people. It kinda floats around for a few years and then eventually Feinstein gets behind it after another mass shooting (this time I believe a workplace one) in California.

    weird how that's still 8 years after the attempted assassination of reagan and 5 years before the passage of the bill, which only happened after everybody was het up over violent super predators

    c'mon man

    It's not weird at all. I literally explained to you how it happened. Things take time in congress. Bills languish for years all the time. You can go fucking read the actual history of the bill if you want rather then spreading conspiracy theories.

    man it passed halfway into clinton's first term the same year as this

    https://www.congress.gov/bill/103rd-congress/house-bill/3355/text

    i lived through this, and remember the racial climate in california at the time

    You just said you were in your 30s so when it passed I hardly think your 9 year old recollection of the times is more accurate then, to pick a random link, NPR:
    in just her second year as a senator, Feinstein took over as chief sponsor of a bill originally offered by Ohio Democrat Howard Metzenbaum in 1989 after a mass shooting on a schoolyard in Stockton, Calif.

    That shooting took the lives of five children and injured 28 others and a teacher.

    Feinstein's resolve to carry this legislation forward was bolstered when eight more people were killed and six injured in another California horror, this time at a law firm in San Francisco.
    https://www.npr.org/2019/08/13/750656174/the-u-s-once-had-a-ban-on-assault-weapons-why-did-it-expire7

    The history of this bill is not that hard to look up. I don't know what you are trying to do here.

    Is there any particular reason we are doubting that there is a distinct correlation between racial animus by the government and the rare passage of gun restrictions in a nation that has, since prior to its inception, has long been plagued with the evil of white supremacy and anti-black animus?

    Particularly when we can also see distinct correlation of gun sales going through the goddamn roof the moment the country elected a black man president?

    This isn’t some kind of “conspiracy theory,” this is just the basic understanding of the intersection of Race and Firearms in America: as long as firearms are seen as the tools of white power, they are allowed to flow freely throughout, even flood, our communities. When black people demonstrate they too can have guns, then America tamps down.

    Because it's not actually based on anything? Maybe instead we should go with the actual history of the law in question. Which I just linked an example of. We don't need random made up conspiracies about how actually it's about some other thing if you just ignore the actual facts and instead go with wild theories based on assumed connections.

    Shryke, you know that isn’t how America actually works. You know how so much of American legal policy uses superficial rationales to paper over racial animus. It’s one of the core defining traits of this country.

    It isn’t a conspiracy to say that America is a racist country, and how race lies at the heart of countless policies. Like, Funsworth is right here; the late 80s and early 90s were a time period filled with the fear and paranoia of a potentially apocalyptic crime wave, particularly infesting urban regions and heavily hued with a racial aspect as to whom the threats to society were. It’s a miasma that permiated society back then, and we can still find it embedded in our media from the time. Even today’s paranoia about rising crime rates carries this paranoia with it.

    At this point as well I think we can even argue that the cop’s response in this issue carries that animus as well. So much of what I’ve seen so far is a heavily white department, policing a town that is heavily Latino. Given what we’ve seen as well about how they’ve handled the political angle, such as that confrontation against Beto the other day when he pressed them for accountability, and I’m pretty sure we can take a guess where they fall regarding a conservative bias.

    Combine that with what we know about how cops by and large across the country have contempt for the communities they police and you have a toxic recipe for disaster.

    Edit: phone I’m begging you to stop converting carries to Carrie’s

    What I'm talking about is how america is working literally right now. Another mass shooting just happened and there's another push for doing something about the availability of guns. Just like there was when the AWB passed back in the 90s. It's pretty simple.

    You don't need to start connecting photos with strings on a corkboard to explain this. It's the same thing that's still happening now and you can just fucking read about it by looking up the history of the bill. I don't know why y'all feel the need to invent entirely different explanations for this then the obvious one that's written everywhere you look.

    Because you cannot divorce politics from the culture in which politics occur

    That is I think where the disconnect is coming in; it feels like you’re basically relying on just the legislative history of the bill going through DC, and neglecting the culture of America which influenced how it made its way through. You need a more holistic approach.

    No, the disconnect is that you are pulling bullshit from nowhere. Again, we are literally seeing right now that a mass shooting motivates people to demand action on gun control. Just like what happened in the 90s. You can go read about it if you actually care to understand the context of that gun control bill rather then just making one up. There's no need to invent facts here.

    Mass shootings are horrible and people 30+ years ago didn't think so any less then we do now. And they have the same reactions as we do today.

    shryke on
    FencingsaxAntinumericmoniker
  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    Former Buzzfeed person:
    DPS chief Steven McGraw: “We haven’t gotten into the why [motive]. We know the individual was also into cyber gaming in that regard, and group gaming.
    Group gaming, that thing like 99% of modern youth is into

    FencingsaxHexmage-PADoodmannAegeriKayne Red RobeElvenshaeGnome-InterruptusCalicamonikerNitsuamarajiBucketman
  • TryCatcherTryCatcher Registered User regular
    edited May 27
    In between all the despair, there's hope. David Hogg posts a video of a big counter protest outside the NRA convention in Houston:
    Yeah this time is gonna be different. This is in front of the NRA convention in Houston.
    Mike Hixenbaugh, NBC reporter, with some details:
    Across the street from the NRA convention: “Am I next?”

    EDIT: Beto O'Rourke with his own perspective within the Rally Against Gun Violence, half an hour video:

    TryCatcher on
    never dieShadowfireMorganVAegeriElvenshaeGnome-InterruptusthatassemblyguyCalicaMan in the MistsmarajiBullheadBucketman
  • LanzLanz Registered User regular
    edited May 27
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    I’m glad to see some of y’all out of the “numb to this” feeling

    We should never accept this as something that “just happens sometimes”

    These kids deserved better

    I have moved firmly into ‘end the second amendment within my lifetime’ territory. It’s a fantasy, but I’m sick of letting idiots and cultists define this argument. Every day we keep the second amendment, we are choosing a sad power fantasy over innocent lives.

    In short- and medium-term fantasy land, a buyback/amnesty period followed by intense penalties for possession. Any access to a firearm requires a lengthy training course, background and mental health screening, proof of safe storage capacity, regular checks of your home to verify storage practices, multiple current references updated annually, and the notarized signature of everybody you have lived with or been in a significant relationship with for the past few years. You want to own any gun, you better be on your best behavior for a long fucking time. And that gets you a single-shot rifle or shotgun, no handguns, nothing semi-automatic.

    The FBI can follow the record industry’s lead from the 90s and leak bad 3D prints of ghost guns that overheat and destroy your printer. Bonus points if they can devise a mechanism that results in near-permanent resin stains on the attempted user.

    I just don’t care about these people or trying to convince them any more. The only thing they fear is losing their fucking guns, so fuck it, take them. They can’t get worse than 40,000 dead a year, and the world can’t be better until they’ve been disarmed. Make it the police’s primary job for the next couple decades to seize and destroy guns, with constant federal oversight.

    There will be blowback, because these people worship death, but you’d need a hell of a lot of blowback for it to compare to the losses every day of our current situation brings.

    Edit: I’m sure there are a hundred flaws to every step in this, even beyond the sheer fantasy of it being feasible at all. Thankfully the bar for success is low enough to functionally not exist.

    tbf, i'm in my thirties, and i've been doing my best to position myself and my community in such a way that we'll survive whatever's coming together since 2016

    idk about y'all, but i plan to see the other side of the jackpot and i think it's entirely possible that after all that chaos and conflict we might find a more peaceful and equitable state of being

    it's also entirely possible that things just keep getting more and more dystopic, but the worse everything gets the more susceptible all these structures get to collapse

    crisis is opportunity, if we plan and react wisely

    I am not sure it's possible to come up with a worse take than "All these dead kids sure will help me realize my political agenda", but let me just stop you right there before you attempt to top yourself, bucko.

    I can’t tell if this is Mod Voice or Your personal opinion Jeffe, but I think this is, given Fundworth’s other posts, a fairly uncharitable read.

    From what he’s said here, we have two options here: either everything keeps decaying, or we can take the present moment and, with planning and organization, take the pain and suffering being felt now to channel into constructing something positive out of it before things collapse into the shithole that the reactionaries of America’s conservative movement want this nation to fall into.

    The problem is, every time this happens, we never do seize on the moment. Time after time, we allow the right to seize the moral ground of “you can’t politicize this” and every massacre becomes yet another numbing, nihilism-generating tragedy where we just slowly accept that this is the inevitability of living in America, that one day the dice are going to roll and it’ll be your horrifying turn to be sacrificed at the altar of the Right’s gun worship.

    We have to fight that.

    Maybe not this time, maybe this time we weren’t ready to press, too disorganized to follow through in a meaningful way. But it doesn’t have to be that way. We know what our gun culture is doing, and while we can’t predict it down to the minute, we know as long as these guns flow like water through our communities, always into the hands of violent men who time after time are shown to have histories of violence and abuse, we know this tragedy will repeat itself.

    That is why organization is imperative. Why planning is paramount.

    We cannot continue to let each one of these massacres become just another tally mark on our collective psyche. We have to prepare, and then we have to be ready to act. To counter the messaging of the right, to drown out their lies and their bullshit, to push for a politics that demands that this nightmare finally ends.

    At the end of this, the political agenda we’re seeking is one that ends these massacres, that turns the nightmare that has become a normal way of life since columbine, into a relic of a painful past. It is an agenda to create a nation free of this senseless, continuing tragedy, and to reject the legacy of mass murder that has plagued this country

    Let us remember where “crisis as opportunity” comes from: not some sleazy attempt at craven hijacking of issues, but from the words of Then-Senator Kennedy in 1959, speaking on the crisis of segregation and the need to integrate this country at the convocation of the United Negro College Fund.

    Today we face a different crisis; a crisis of violence that sweeps through our nation over and over, a ravenous specter that respects no age, no sex, no place or time. A specter that has lingered among us, it’s bloody claws and teeth yet still dripping with fresh blood.

    We cannot afford to let this crisis pass us without action. We must, absolutely, turn it into the opportunity for a better tomorrow.

    Lanz on
    waNkm4k.jpg?1
    FeralTefMatevGiggles_FunsworthelectricitylikesmeKristmas KthulhuMan in the MistsFANTOMASYamiB.maraji
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited May 27
    Maybe don't use words like jackpot.

    Also, when you seemingly salivate over defending against the "American kristallnacht", you sound exactly like a gun asshole.

    Fencingsax on
    shrykeMarathonmrondeauPreacherdanxMonwynBlackDragon480ronzoQanamilToxNobodyadytumKnuckle DraggerJohnny ChopsockyGnizmoLostNinjaGoumindongChiselphaneouchiesShadowfireGrisloMorganVA Kobold's KoboldTynnanSimpsoniaLabelAegeriShadowhopeElvenshaeSkeithmilskiGnome-InterruptusiTunesIsEvilHavelock2.0EinzelMr RayAridholsanstodobwaniemonikerBandable
  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    edited May 27
    Tox wrote: »
    SyphonBlue wrote: »
    Nobeard wrote: »
    I am now suspicious that some cop did charge in but instead of shooting the gunman he shot and killed a couple kids and that’s why the outside cops were so adamant on keeping anyone else from getting in, including parents and other departments.



    NBC News Correspondent NEW: Texas law enforcement officials at a press conference say they believe that all the children that were shot and killed in Uvalde, TX were shot by Salvador Ramos and not anyone else [i.e. law enforcement].

    Yeah that's uh...that's exactly what happened

    *58 magazines* found at the school.

    18-year-old bought 1,657 bullets.

    Those are definitely a lot of cop magazines. I don't even know how you carry that many mags unless you just have a loose sack of them.

    Steven Dennis is a reporter for Bloomberg, Robert Evans is a reporter for BellingCat and a podcaster.

    The cops murdered children that day

    Wait. Hold on.

    I'm supposed to believe this kid was wandering around with 20 KG's (or 45 lbs) of ammo Plus whatever the the magazines weigh (of which he had to have had at least 52 if he was using a 30 round mag)?

    Gaddez on
    PreacherNobeardDoodmannElvenshaeRingoMan in the MistsmarajiBullheadBucketman
  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator mod
    Geth, kick @Giggles_Funsworth from the thread.

    The rules about taking your disputes with mod posts to a pm with two mods hasn’t changed.

  • GethGeth Legion Perseus VeilRegistered User, Moderator, Penny Arcade Staff, Vanilla Staff vanilla
    Affirmative Bogart. @Giggles_Funsworth banned from this thread.

  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    edited May 27
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Also if they're cosmetic the gun nuts sure got real angry for some reason anyway. Almost like they weren't cosmetic.

    Nyt reporter
    https://mobile.twitter.com/ByMikeBaker/status/1530238057454047232
    Student calls to 911:
    12:03—whispered she's in room 112
    12:10—said multiple dead
    12:13—called again
    12:16—says 8-9 students alive
    12:19—student calls from room 111
    12:21—3 shots heard on call
    12:36—another call
    12:43—asks for police
    12:47—asks for police

    Its not even that.

    Officers were on the scene before the shooter entered the school.

    Like the shooter shot at a funeral home 10 minutes before entering the school, police cars were in the school parking lot, and somehow this guy just snuck around them with an assault rifle and got into a classroom.

    Unbelievable.

    But wait, it gets even worse!

    Breaking News: Border Patrol agents arrived far earlier than disclosed, but the Uvalde police initially kept them from entering the school, two officials said.
    The agents from Border Patrol and Immigration and Customs Enforcement arrived at some point between 12 p.m. and 10:10 p.m., according to the officials — far earlier than previously known. But they did not breach the adjoining classrooms of the school where the gunman had locked himself in until a little before 1 p.m. Members of the federal tactical team killed the gunman.

    The officials said that members of the Uvalde Police Department kept the federal agents from going in sooner.
    ...
    The federal officers had driven up from the Mexican border, one official said. The official said it was not clear why the local SWAT team did not respond.

    This Vice article also states that Uvalde cops' behavior contradicts how Texas law officers are supposed to be trained to handle active shooter events - to charge the building and engage the shooter, do not wait for back up but stop the killing ASAP.

    DarkPrimus on
    usnTyq4.jpg
    Gamertag: PrimusD | Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
    joshofalltradesLabelKayne Red RobeShadowhopeGnome-InterruptusmonikerKristmas KthulhuMan in the MistsmarajiBucketman
  • Dark_SideDark_Side Registered User regular
    edited May 27
    SyphonBlue wrote: »
    Nobeard wrote: »
    I am now suspicious that some cop did charge in but instead of shooting the gunman he shot and killed a couple kids and that’s why the outside cops were so adamant on keeping anyone else from getting in, including parents and other departments.



    NBC News Correspondent NEW: Texas law enforcement officials at a press conference say they believe that all the children that were shot and killed in Uvalde, TX were shot by Salvador Ramos and not anyone else [i.e. law enforcement].

    Yeah that's uh...that's exactly what happened

    So...that's basically a tacit admission that they did then.

    Also for gun control I realized today that we're so behind the 8 ball on ghost guns and 3d printing that even if we can ban AR-15's, black market printing presses will spring up overnight to churn them out.

    Dark_Side on
    NobeardGiggles_FunsworthElvenshae
  • LanzLanz Registered User regular
    edited May 27
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Maybe don't use words like jackpot.

    Also, when you seemingly salivate over defending against the "American kristallnacht", you sound exactly like a gun asshole.

    He’s using it in the Gibsonian sense; The Jackpot is William Gibson’s term to represent an apocalypse contrary to the popular conceit of the sudden, unicausal one; the Jackpot instead posits a multicausal apocalypse that plays out over the course of decades, if not over a century, as varying destructive systems come to intersect in ways that devastate society.

    It’s entering the lexicon more slowly than, say, cyberspace did, but it has penetrated somewhat.

    That’s why Funsworth phrased it as “coming out the other side of the jackpot,” because what he is suggesting is preparing to be able to survive a series of intersecting crises that severely disrupt society.

    As for “American Krystalnacht” I don’t know what to tell you; the right has made it pretty clear what their intentions are once they seize power. And it’s not like the period between Reconstruction and the CRA isn’t replete with their predecessors acting it out, from Tulsa to every lynching across the country, to the massacre of black voters attending political conventions in Louisiana.

    Lanz on
    waNkm4k.jpg?1
    FeralTefMatevtynicGiggles_FunsworthBloodsheedRingoelectricitylikesmeKnight_CalicaKristmas KthulhuMan in the MistsFANTOMASmaraji
  • MonwynMonwyn Apathy's a tragedy, and boredom is a crime. A little bit of everything, all of the time.Registered User regular
    edited May 27
    Gaddez wrote: »
    Tox wrote: »
    SyphonBlue wrote: »
    Nobeard wrote: »
    I am now suspicious that some cop did charge in but instead of shooting the gunman he shot and killed a couple kids and that’s why the outside cops were so adamant on keeping anyone else from getting in, including parents and other departments.



    NBC News Correspondent NEW: Texas law enforcement officials at a press conference say they believe that all the children that were shot and killed in Uvalde, TX were shot by Salvador Ramos and not anyone else [i.e. law enforcement].

    Yeah that's uh...that's exactly what happened

    *58 magazines* found at the school.

    18-year-old bought 1,657 bullets.

    Those are definitely a lot of cop magazines. I don't even know how you carry that many mags unless you just have a loose sack of them.

    Steven Dennis is a reporter for Bloomberg, Robert Evans is a reporter for BellingCat and a podcaster.

    The cops murdered children that day

    Wait. Hold on.

    I'm supposed to believe this kid was wandering around with 20 KG's (or 45 lbs) of ammo Plus whatever the the magazines weigh (of which he had to have had at least 52 if he was using a 30 round mag)?

    It is literally impossible to believe this kid managed to source a thousand rounds of 5.56 in a month without stealing it from someone else that was stockpiling. Like the ammo just isn't there to buy.

    Monwyn on
    uH3IcEi.png
    Dark_SideToxGnome-Interruptuselectricitylikesmemrpaku
  • mrondeaumrondeau Montréal, CanadaRegistered User regular
    Dark_Side wrote: »
    SyphonBlue wrote: »
    Nobeard wrote: »
    I am now suspicious that some cop did charge in but instead of shooting the gunman he shot and killed a couple kids and that’s why the outside cops were so adamant on keeping anyone else from getting in, including parents and other departments.



    NBC News Correspondent NEW: Texas law enforcement officials at a press conference say they believe that all the children that were shot and killed in Uvalde, TX were shot by Salvador Ramos and not anyone else [i.e. law enforcement].

    Yeah that's uh...that's exactly what happened

    So...that's basically a tacit admission that they did then.

    Also for gun control I realized today that we're so behind the 8 ball on ghost guns and 3d printing that even if we can ban AR-15's, black market printing presses will spring up overnight to churn them out.

    Making black market guns is not hard anyway, but Canadian criminals still import them from the US, because smuggling them is easier. And you can still arrest people making guns, so they won't exactly be eager to sell them to strangers.

    So it's still worth doing.

    shrykeKayne Red RobeGnome-Interruptuselectricitylikesmemonikermaraji
  • see317see317 Registered User regular
    Dark_Side wrote: »
    SyphonBlue wrote: »
    Nobeard wrote: »
    I am now suspicious that some cop did charge in but instead of shooting the gunman he shot and killed a couple kids and that’s why the outside cops were so adamant on keeping anyone else from getting in, including parents and other departments.



    NBC News Correspondent NEW: Texas law enforcement officials at a press conference say they believe that all the children that were shot and killed in Uvalde, TX were shot by Salvador Ramos and not anyone else [i.e. law enforcement].

    Yeah that's uh...that's exactly what happened

    So...that's basically a tacit admission that they did then.

    Also for gun control I realized today that we're so behind the 8 ball on ghost guns and 3d printing that even if we can ban AR-15's, black market printing presses will spring up overnight to churn them out.

    Tell me you shot a kid without saying you shot a kid...

    Dark_SidemrondeaushrykeNobeardToxMatevAegeriRingoSkeiththatassemblyguyEtiowsaelectricitylikesmeKraintmonikerMan in the MistsmarajiBucketman
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Also if they're cosmetic the gun nuts sure got real angry for some reason anyway. Almost like they weren't cosmetic.

    Nyt reporter
    https://mobile.twitter.com/ByMikeBaker/status/1530238057454047232
    Student calls to 911:
    12:03—whispered she's in room 112
    12:10—said multiple dead
    12:13—called again
    12:16—says 8-9 students alive
    12:19—student calls from room 111
    12:21—3 shots heard on call
    12:36—another call
    12:43—asks for police
    12:47—asks for police

    Its not even that.

    Officers were on the scene before the shooter entered the school.

    Like the shooter shot at a funeral home 10 minutes before entering the school, police cars were in the school parking lot, and somehow this guy just snuck around them with an assault rifle and got into a classroom.

    Unbelievable.

    But wait, it gets even worse!

    Breaking News: Border Patrol agents arrived far earlier than disclosed, but the Uvalde police initially kept them from entering the school, two officials said.
    The agents from Border Patrol and Immigration and Customs Enforcement arrived at some point between 12 p.m. and 10:10 p.m., according to the officials — far earlier than previously known. But they did not breach the adjoining classrooms of the school where the gunman had locked himself in until a little before 1 p.m. Members of the federal tactical team killed the gunman.

    The officials said that members of the Uvalde Police Department kept the federal agents from going in sooner.
    ...
    The federal officers had driven up from the Mexican border, one official said. The official said it was not clear why the local SWAT team did not respond.

    This Vice article also states that Uvalde cops' behavior contradicts how Texas law officers are supposed to be trained to handle active shooter events - to charge the building and engage the shooter, do not wait for back up but stop the killing ASAP.

    That is the doctrine for shootings. Go in and engage ASAP.

    Considering they had a training at the school a couple of weeks prior, one wonders what the fuck is going on.

    NobeardboogedybooKayne Red RobeShadowhopeGnome-InterruptusthatassemblyguyHavelock2.0RedTideTicaldfjamMan in the MistsNitsuamarajiBucketman
  • Dark_SideDark_Side Registered User regular
    mrondeau wrote: »
    Dark_Side wrote: »
    SyphonBlue wrote: »
    Nobeard wrote: »
    I am now suspicious that some cop did charge in but instead of shooting the gunman he shot and killed a couple kids and that’s why the outside cops were so adamant on keeping anyone else from getting in, including parents and other departments.



    NBC News Correspondent NEW: Texas law enforcement officials at a press conference say they believe that all the children that were shot and killed in Uvalde, TX were shot by Salvador Ramos and not anyone else [i.e. law enforcement].

    Yeah that's uh...that's exactly what happened

    So...that's basically a tacit admission that they did then.

    Also for gun control I realized today that we're so behind the 8 ball on ghost guns and 3d printing that even if we can ban AR-15's, black market printing presses will spring up overnight to churn them out.

    Making black market guns is not hard anyway, but Canadian criminals still import them from the US, because smuggling them is easier. And you can still arrest people making guns, so they won't exactly be eager to sell them to strangers.

    So it's still worth doing.

    Oh I definitely agree. I think adding the levels of complexity in obtaining a weapon is important and if some of those were in place, it likely would have greatly delayed this while greatly increasing the odds law enforcement caught him before he could execute his plan.

  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Also if they're cosmetic the gun nuts sure got real angry for some reason anyway. Almost like they weren't cosmetic.

    Nyt reporter
    https://mobile.twitter.com/ByMikeBaker/status/1530238057454047232
    Student calls to 911:
    12:03—whispered she's in room 112
    12:10—said multiple dead
    12:13—called again
    12:16—says 8-9 students alive
    12:19—student calls from room 111
    12:21—3 shots heard on call
    12:36—another call
    12:43—asks for police
    12:47—asks for police

    Its not even that.

    Officers were on the scene before the shooter entered the school.

    Like the shooter shot at a funeral home 10 minutes before entering the school, police cars were in the school parking lot, and somehow this guy just snuck around them with an assault rifle and got into a classroom.

    Unbelievable.

    But wait, it gets even worse!

    Breaking News: Border Patrol agents arrived far earlier than disclosed, but the Uvalde police initially kept them from entering the school, two officials said.
    The agents from Border Patrol and Immigration and Customs Enforcement arrived at some point between 12 p.m. and 10:10 p.m., according to the officials — far earlier than previously known. But they did not breach the adjoining classrooms of the school where the gunman had locked himself in until a little before 1 p.m. Members of the federal tactical team killed the gunman.

    The officials said that members of the Uvalde Police Department kept the federal agents from going in sooner.
    ...
    The federal officers had driven up from the Mexican border, one official said. The official said it was not clear why the local SWAT team did not respond.

    This Vice article also states that Uvalde cops' behavior contradicts how Texas law officers are supposed to be trained to handle active shooter events - to charge the building and engage the shooter, do not wait for back up but stop the killing ASAP.

    So, technically he should have been dead before he entered the building.

    MagellFencingsaxRingoNitsuamarajiBullhead
  • Dark_SideDark_Side Registered User regular
    edited May 27
    So, technically he should have been dead before he entered the building.

    So it's really starting to look like they bungled the initial stop/crash so badly that they lost him in a school, and then stormed in guns ablaze, accidentally shot some of the kids, panicked, locked off the scene, and tried to manufacture a story that he was taking hostages - hence the mentions of waiting for hostage negotiators. Sadly it would totally explain the hour delay.

    Dark_Side on
    NobeardPreacherSouth hostToxCaptain InertiaA Kobold's KoboldStabbity StyleAegeriRingoGnome-InterruptusthatassemblyguyelectricitylikesmeHavelock2.0monikerMan in the MistsmarajiBucketman
  • ZibblsnrtZibblsnrt Registered User regular
    Monwyn wrote: »
    Gaddez wrote: »
    Tox wrote: »
    SyphonBlue wrote: »
    Nobeard wrote: »
    I am now suspicious that some cop did charge in but instead of shooting the gunman he shot and killed a couple kids and that’s why the outside cops were so adamant on keeping anyone else from getting in, including parents and other departments.



    NBC News Correspondent NEW: Texas law enforcement officials at a press conference say they believe that all the children that were shot and killed in Uvalde, TX were shot by Salvador Ramos and not anyone else [i.e. law enforcement].

    Yeah that's uh...that's exactly what happened

    *58 magazines* found at the school.

    18-year-old bought 1,657 bullets.

    Those are definitely a lot of cop magazines. I don't even know how you carry that many mags unless you just have a loose sack of them.

    Steven Dennis is a reporter for Bloomberg, Robert Evans is a reporter for BellingCat and a podcaster.

    The cops murdered children that day

    Wait. Hold on.

    I'm supposed to believe this kid was wandering around with 20 KG's (or 45 lbs) of ammo Plus whatever the the magazines weigh (of which he had to have had at least 52 if he was using a 30 round mag)?

    It is literally impossible to believe this kid managed to source a thousand rounds of 5.56 in a month without stealing it from someone else that was stockpiling. Like the ammo just isn't there to buy.

    He might have also bought it from someone else that was stockpiling. It's Texas, so I assume that even if there's a retail shortage there probably isn't a shortage of individuals who've had a pile of it sitting around since whenever.

    OneAngryPossumLabelEinzel
  • Dark_SideDark_Side Registered User regular
    edited May 27
    Zibblsnrt wrote: »
    Monwyn wrote: »
    Gaddez wrote: »
    Tox wrote: »
    SyphonBlue wrote: »
    Nobeard wrote: »
    I am now suspicious that some cop did charge in but instead of shooting the gunman he shot and killed a couple kids and that’s why the outside cops were so adamant on keeping anyone else from getting in, including parents and other departments.



    NBC News Correspondent NEW: Texas law enforcement officials at a press conference say they believe that all the children that were shot and killed in Uvalde, TX were shot by Salvador Ramos and not anyone else [i.e. law enforcement].

    Yeah that's uh...that's exactly what happened

    *58 magazines* found at the school.

    18-year-old bought 1,657 bullets.

    Those are definitely a lot of cop magazines. I don't even know how you carry that many mags unless you just have a loose sack of them.

    Steven Dennis is a reporter for Bloomberg, Robert Evans is a reporter for BellingCat and a podcaster.

    The cops murdered children that day

    Wait. Hold on.

    I'm supposed to believe this kid was wandering around with 20 KG's (or 45 lbs) of ammo Plus whatever the the magazines weigh (of which he had to have had at least 52 if he was using a 30 round mag)?

    It is literally impossible to believe this kid managed to source a thousand rounds of 5.56 in a month without stealing it from someone else that was stockpiling. Like the ammo just isn't there to buy.

    He might have also bought it from someone else that was stockpiling. It's Texas, so I assume that even if there's a retail shortage there probably isn't a shortage of individuals who've had a pile of it sitting around since whenever.

    Yeah, but if you're hoarding ammo AND you know there's a massive pandemic shortage, who is going to sell that amount of rounds to an unstable 18 year old kid? Especially one working off of a Wendy's paycheck.

    Dark_Side on
    BlackDragon480Man in the Mists
  • NobeardNobeard North Carolina: Failed StateRegistered User regular
    I am extremely interested in any and all future ballistics reports. I want to know what bullets came from which guns and at what angles.

    I'm not saying we are going to have an autocratic dystopia, but things keep happening that look like they come from an autocratic dystopia.
    FencingsaxshrykeIncenjucarPreacherjoshofalltradesToxChiselphaneShadowfireA Kobold's KoboldDoodmannLabelStabbity StyleAegerithatassemblyguyelectricitylikesmeHavelock2.0ThegreatcowmrpakuKraintjimb213CalicamonikerKristmas KthulhuMan in the MistsNitsuamarajiBucketman
Sign In or Register to comment.