As was foretold, we've added advertisements to the forums! If you have questions, or if you encounter any bugs, please visit this thread: https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/240191/forum-advertisement-faq-and-reports-thread/

A New Thread For The Russian-Ukrainian War

1141517192080

Posts

  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    Man it really does feel like germany is basically saying "how much of ukraine can russia take and call this a win so we can go back to getting oil?" At least the government is, and then like trying to seed media to make it seem like all of europe thinks the same.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    pleasepaypreacher.net
    Commander ZoomShadowenGennenalyse RuebenTryCatcherCornucopiistFencingsaxGiantGeek2020OrcaA Kobold's KoboldMoridin889LabelAimvalhalla130marajiNetscapeStrikorMr RayboogedybooMan in the MistssarukunMartini_Philosopheremp123Elvenshae
  • knitdanknitdan Registered User regular
    If Germany doesn't change their tune they're gonna find themselves diminished in international relations along with Russia.

    “I was quick when I came in here, I’m twice as quick now”
    -Indiana Solo, runner of blades
    PreacherFencingsaxOrcaA Kobold's KoboldAimvalhalla130NetscapethatassemblyguyMan in the MistssarukunCentipede DamascusMartini_Philosopher
  • Jam WarriorJam Warrior Registered User regular
    knitdan wrote: »
    If Germany doesn't change their tune they're gonna find themselves diminished in international relations along with Russia.

    They already got nul points at Eurovision. The public has spoken.

    MhCw7nZ.gif
    CornucopiistFencingsaxGiantGeek2020rahkeesh2000Moridin889Aimvalhalla130RingothatassemblyguyKayne Red RobeMr RayTynnanMan in the MistsSkeithRhesus PositivesarukunV1mEinzelMartini_Philosopheremp123Gnome-InterruptusElvenshaeBullheadAegeri
  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    knitdan wrote: »
    If Germany doesn't change their tune they're gonna find themselves diminished in international relations along with Russia.

    It really does feel like this is showing their character in the greater sense, on top of how they kind of bullied the rest of the EU during the recession while their country came out stronger.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    pleasepaypreacher.net
    knitdanBlackDragon480MvrckCornucopiistGiantGeek2020Gennenalyse RuebenOrcaA Kobold's KoboldMoridin889Labelvalhalla130NetscapeMan in the MistsMartini_PhilosopherGnome-Interruptus
  • McRhynoMcRhyno Registered User regular
    Zelensky straight up told Kissinger and his fucking fellow ghouls they are the Hitler appeasers

    PSN: ImRyanBurgundy
    TryCatcherMvrckBlackDragon480Commander ZoomjmcdonaldbrynhrtmnFencingsaxGiantGeek2020Golden YakGennenalyse RuebenJust_Bri_ThankszekebeauironsizideForarStabbity StyleShadowfireKruitezagdrobMillA Kobold's KoboldXaquinMoridin889DracomicronLabelShadowenPolaritieAimNitsuaStarZappervalhalla130The Zombie PenguinmarajiRingoNetscapethatassemblyguyKayne Red RobeMr RayboogedybooTynnanGONG-00Man in the MistsRichyBrodySkeithstopgapRhesus PositivesarukunDark Raven XEinzelDacautono-wally, erotibot300Redcoat-13EtiowsaRanlinMartini_PhilosopherHavelock2.0Munkus BeaverJacques L'Hommeemp123shrykeCantideGnome-InterruptusElvenshaeThegreatcowspool32ChiselphaneBullheadFoolOnTheHillSanguinius666264AegeriNyysjan
  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    Jewish leaders get a pass on Godwin's law, right?

    MvrckBlackDragon480Commander ZoomKnuckle DraggerzagdrobShadowenAimBrodyMartini_Philosopherlonelyahavaspool32
  • CornucopiistCornucopiist Registered User regular
    Jewish leaders get a pass on Godwin's law, right?

    I used to follow Mike Godwin on Facebook, pretty sure on where he is on this stuff (not pro-Putin) but you can go over to his wall and check.

  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited May 28
    TryCatcher wrote: »
    Oh, that reminds me, on the topic of "who started this war".

    I expect ghouls like Kissinger throw out "well, if NATO had respected the fact that Ukraine is a Russian colony, then none of this would have happened. Empires should respect each other's holdings". Is ghoulish, but is consistent.

    But to hear the same from the people that denounce to high heavens the Monroe doctrine is particulary infuriating, and it shows no other consistent position besides being a paid-for Putinist. That's with you, Glenn Greenwald.

    I occassionally have a look at his twitter, because I apparently like to hurt myself, and his latest batch is just particularly awful.

    Edit: this is much later, but good gods.

    Fencingsax on
  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    TryCatcher wrote: »
    Oh, that reminds me, on the topic of "who started this war".

    I expect ghouls like Kissinger throw out "well, if NATO had respected the fact that Ukraine is a Russian colony, then none of this would have happened. Empires should respect each other's holdings". Is ghoulish, but is consistent.

    Nah its hella inconsistent. Henry "Containment Theory" Kissinger doesn't think we could contain Russia

    The absolute fuck?

    wbBv3fj.png
    electricitylikesmeCasualshryke
  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    edited May 27
    Goumindong wrote: »
    TryCatcher wrote: »
    Oh, that reminds me, on the topic of "who started this war".

    I expect ghouls like Kissinger throw out "well, if NATO had respected the fact that Ukraine is a Russian colony, then none of this would have happened. Empires should respect each other's holdings". Is ghoulish, but is consistent.

    Nah its hella inconsistent. Henry "Containment Theory" Kissinger doesn't think we could contain Russia

    The absolute fuck?

    Oh, but this is containing them, to their own "sphere of influence", which naturally includes (the) Ukraine...
    :/

    Commander Zoom on
    steam_sig.png
    Steam, Warframe: Megajoule
    mrondeauTryCatchermarajiFencingsaxMan in the MistselectricitylikesmeEinzelMartini_PhilosopherMunkus BeaverElvenshae
  • MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    edited May 27
    Jewish leaders get a pass on Godwin's law, right?

    Everyone should get a pass on Godwin's Law when they're literal fascists. Other than the thinnest veneer with regard the bolded, how are the words and actions of Putin and his subordinates and allies, not fascist?

    https://www.dictionary.com/browse/fascism
    "(sometimes initial capital letter) a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism."

    That's not meant as a rhetorical question. What differentiates modern Russia, from fascism? Genuinely curious.

    EDIT - I get that this is about calling Kissinger a fascist sympathizer, and not Putin/Russia directly, but given Kissinger is preaching appeasement and sympathy to Russia, if Russia IS considered a fascist country, then that shoe, it definitely fits.

    MorganV on
    Man in the MistsShadowhope
  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    Godwins law was always about inappropriately calling someone a nazi or bringing up the nazis, it does not apply when people are literally appeasing a genocidal maniac who is trying to take over countries by force.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    pleasepaypreacher.net
    Commander Zoomchrono_travellerMorganVzagdrobA Kobold's KoboldMvrckMoridin889DracomicronLabelShadowenscherbchenvalhalla130Gennenalyse RuebenRingomarajiNetscapeStrikorthatassemblyguyGolden YakironsizideFencingsaxboogedybooMr RayTynnannever dieMan in the MistsRichySkeithelectricitylikesmeJPantsRhesus PositivesarukunShadowhopeGiantGeek2020EinzelEtiowsaMartini_PhilosopherHavelock2.0Munkus Beaveremp123CantideGnome-InterruptusElvenshaelonelyahavaspool32Bullhead
  • mrondeaumrondeau Montréal, CanadaRegistered User regular
    MorganV wrote: »
    Jewish leaders get a pass on Godwin's law, right?

    Everyone should get a pass on Godwin's Law when they're literal fascists. Other than the thinnest veneer with regard the bolded, how are the words and actions of Putin and his subordinates and allies, not fascist?

    https://www.dictionary.com/browse/fascism
    "(sometimes initial capital letter) a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism."

    That's not meant as a rhetorical question. What differentiates modern Russia, from fascism? Genuinely curious.

    EDIT - I get that this is about calling Kissinger a fascist sympathizer, and not Putin/Russia directly, but given Kissinger is preaching appeasement and sympathy to Russia, if Russia IS considered a fascist country, then that shoe, it definitely fits.

    Russia is fascist. If anything, the actual Fascist party was more democratic (Mussolini was deposed by the party.)

    ZibblsnrtNetscapeMr RayMan in the MistsMartini_Philosopher
  • ceresceres When the last moon is cast over the last star of morning And the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderator mod
    Jewish leaders get a pass on Godwin's law, right?

    When they've been told they're the real antisemite by someone who goes out of their way to kill Jews and commit genocide, yes. :P

    And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
    PreacherCommander ZoomFiendishrabbitGennenalyse RuebenNeveronironsizideFencingsaxBlackDragon480never dieMan in the MistssarukunMartini_Philosopherchrono_travellerMunkus BeaverElvenshaelonelyahavaAegeri
  • DracomicronDracomicron Registered User regular
    I'd even call Israel nazis if they take sovereign territory, destroy its minority population's way of life for political and economic advantage, and terrorize them for decades, killing them indiscriminately if they fight back.

    ...

    Just_Bri_Thanksvalhalla130StarZapperRingoSmrtnikKayne Red RobeBlackDragon480brynhrtmnMan in the MistsBrodyJPantssarukunMaydayShadowhopeEinzelMartini_PhilosopherMunkus BeaverSolarGnome-InterruptusBandableNyysjan
  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    Godwins law was always about inappropriately calling someone a nazi or bringing up the nazis, it does not apply when people are literally appeasing a genocidal maniac who is trying to take over countries by force.

    Godwin himself pointed out in 2017 that there are lots of people who should be called fascists around.



    Yeah, just think about the halycon days of 2017 there.

    Nod. Get treat. PSN: Quippish
    IncenjucarCommander ZoomStabbity StyleShadowenPreacherA Kobold's KoboldForarLabelGennenalyse RuebenGiantGeek2020thatassemblyguyGolden Yakvalhalla130AbsoluteZeroKayne Red RobeFencingsaxBlackDragon480boogedybooTynnannever dieEmperorSethGONG-00Man in the MistsRichyRingoJPantselectricitylikesmeRhesus PositivesarukunMvrckShadowhopemarajioverride367autono-wally, erotibot300ShadowfireRozCentipede DamascusMartini_PhilosopherHavelock2.0chrono_travellerJacques L'Hommeemp123shrykeCantideElvenshaespool32BullheadBandableFoolOnTheHillSanguinius666264AegeriNyysjan
  • ScooterScooter Registered User regular
    edited May 28
    Germany's attempt to try and make this end 'quickly' by pushing for Ukraine to lose doesn't even really make sense on a practical level. At the end of the day, all Ukraine really needs to keep going is the US and Poland, everyone else is a bonus. And what do you know, those are the two countries that seem to be most solidly in support of fighting for a victory. So Germany and Italy and whoever else can go sulk in the corner all they want, this is going to happen with or without them. So if they really wanted to speed things up they'd get on board and help out.

    Unrelated, an OSINT account with an update I'm not really sure what to make of:


    The Russian General Staff has sent out orders to Military Districts throughout the Country to begin raising and preparing “Reserve Battalions”, these Battalions will be made up of Short-Term Conscripts and older personnel who will go through a 30 Day Training Regiment.

    Is this just an additional 30 days for conscripts they already have? Or is this a whole new mobilization wave of troops that will only get 30 days of training? Because if it's the latter, it's not just desperate, it's stupid. Even in the world wars with troops driving into Soviet territory they didn't send in troops with just 4 weeks of training.

    Scooter on
    NetscapeGiantGeek2020
  • Kayne Red RobeKayne Red Robe Master of Magic ArcanusRegistered User regular
    Scooter wrote: »
    Germany's attempt to try and make this end 'quickly' by pushing for Ukraine to lose doesn't even really make sense on a practical level. At the end of the day, all Ukraine really needs to keep going is the US and Poland, everyone else is a bonus. And what do you know, those are the two countries that seem to be most solidly in support of fighting for a victory. So Germany and Italy and whoever else can go sulk in the corner all they want, this is going to happen with or without them. So if they really wanted to speed things up they'd get on board and help out.

    Unrelated, an OSINT account with an update I'm not really sure what to make of:


    The Russian General Staff has sent out orders to Military Districts throughout the Country to begin raising and preparing “Reserve Battalions”, these Battalions will be made up of Short-Term Conscripts and older personnel who will go through a 30 Day Training Regiment.

    Is this just an additional 30 days for conscripts they already have? Or is this a whole new mobilization wave of troops that will only get 30 days of training? Because if it's the latter, it's not just desperate, it's stupid. Even in the world wars with troops driving into Soviet territory they didn't send in troops with just 4 weeks of training.

    I think it's analogous to calling up the army reserve, "short term conscripts" likely refers to folks who very recently ended their term of conscription. So in theory the 30 days is a refresher course for people who in theory remember some of their previous training.

    CrazyPmarajiGiantGeek2020
  • CrazyPCrazyP Registered User regular
    Scooter wrote: »
    Germany's attempt to try and make this end 'quickly' by pushing for Ukraine to lose doesn't even really make sense on a practical level. At the end of the day, all Ukraine really needs to keep going is the US and Poland, everyone else is a bonus. And what do you know, those are the two countries that seem to be most solidly in support of fighting for a victory. So Germany and Italy and whoever else can go sulk in the corner all they want, this is going to happen with or without them. So if they really wanted to speed things up they'd get on board and help out.

    Unrelated, an OSINT account with an update I'm not really sure what to make of:


    The Russian General Staff has sent out orders to Military Districts throughout the Country to begin raising and preparing “Reserve Battalions”, these Battalions will be made up of Short-Term Conscripts and older personnel who will go through a 30 Day Training Regiment.

    Is this just an additional 30 days for conscripts they already have? Or is this a whole new mobilization wave of troops that will only get 30 days of training? Because if it's the latter, it's not just desperate, it's stupid. Even in the world wars with troops driving into Soviet territory they didn't send in troops with just 4 weeks of training.

    I think it's analogous to calling up the army reserve, "short term conscripts" likely refers to folks who very recently ended their term of conscription. So in theory the 30 days is a refresher course for people who in theory remember some of their previous training.

    Something like this - yes. Remember that Russia practices mass conscription, so most people signing up for military are expected to have some training already. Before service starts you must pass refresher course of 4 weeks, if anything it sounds like military is getting less desperate, back in April there thousands of job listings for contract service past just 2 weeks refresher, with expectation of you joining active combat right after it.

    Currently I've seen to regions close to Ukraine starting build up of reserve forces, promising they will not be sent to Ukraine btw, which I am sure will not be honored.

    Cant say what that twitter means by "short term conscripts", it maybe talking about an option of replacing 1 year of conscription service with 2 years as contract soldier, for better pay. This does usually have up to 6 month training, depending on military branch though.

  • JusticeforPlutoJusticeforPluto Registered User regular
    Scooter wrote: »
    Germany's attempt to try and make this end 'quickly' by pushing for Ukraine to lose doesn't even really make sense on a practical level. At the end of the day, all Ukraine really needs to keep going is the US and Poland, everyone else is a bonus. And what do you know, those are the two countries that seem to be most solidly in support of fighting for a victory. So Germany and Italy and whoever else can go sulk in the corner all they want, this is going to happen with or without them. So if they really wanted to speed things up they'd get on board and help out.

    Unrelated, an OSINT account with an update I'm not really sure what to make of:


    The Russian General Staff has sent out orders to Military Districts throughout the Country to begin raising and preparing “Reserve Battalions”, these Battalions will be made up of Short-Term Conscripts and older personnel who will go through a 30 Day Training Regiment.

    Is this just an additional 30 days for conscripts they already have? Or is this a whole new mobilization wave of troops that will only get 30 days of training? Because if it's the latter, it's not just desperate, it's stupid. Even in the world wars with troops driving into Soviet territory they didn't send in troops with just 4 weeks of training.

    I don't think German leadership thinks that not aiding Ukraine will make them lose, they just don't want to be on Russia's bad side when this is over.

  • ceresceres When the last moon is cast over the last star of morning And the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderator mod
    Scooter wrote: »
    Germany's attempt to try and make this end 'quickly' by pushing for Ukraine to lose doesn't even really make sense on a practical level. At the end of the day, all Ukraine really needs to keep going is the US and Poland, everyone else is a bonus. And what do you know, those are the two countries that seem to be most solidly in support of fighting for a victory. So Germany and Italy and whoever else can go sulk in the corner all they want, this is going to happen with or without them. So if they really wanted to speed things up they'd get on board and help out.

    Unrelated, an OSINT account with an update I'm not really sure what to make of:


    The Russian General Staff has sent out orders to Military Districts throughout the Country to begin raising and preparing “Reserve Battalions”, these Battalions will be made up of Short-Term Conscripts and older personnel who will go through a 30 Day Training Regiment.

    Is this just an additional 30 days for conscripts they already have? Or is this a whole new mobilization wave of troops that will only get 30 days of training? Because if it's the latter, it's not just desperate, it's stupid. Even in the world wars with troops driving into Soviet territory they didn't send in troops with just 4 weeks of training.

    I don't think German leadership thinks that not aiding Ukraine will make them lose, they just don't want to be on Russia's bad side when this is over.

    That would tell me that they believe Russia is going to come out of this on top.

    And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
    MechMantisPreacherMorninglordNitsuaCommander ZoomFencingsaxShadowenelectricitylikesmeRhesus PositiveGiantGeek2020marajiAimA Kobold's KoboldShadowfireMartini_Philosopherthatassemblyguyvalhalla130AbsoluteZeroExtreaminatusElvenshaeSanguinius666264Aegeri
  • JusticeforPlutoJusticeforPluto Registered User regular
    They probably did. Everyone did.

    But they probably realize that even if Ukraine wins, as long as they didn't help to much they can get back to business as usual quicker.

    Basically Germany alone can't change the fate of this war, so why stick your neck to much?

    (Also its late, by Germany I mean their government and not the people)

    Gnome-InterruptusElvenshae
  • MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    Scooter wrote: »
    Germany's attempt to try and make this end 'quickly' by pushing for Ukraine to lose doesn't even really make sense on a practical level. At the end of the day, all Ukraine really needs to keep going is the US and Poland, everyone else is a bonus. And what do you know, those are the two countries that seem to be most solidly in support of fighting for a victory. So Germany and Italy and whoever else can go sulk in the corner all they want, this is going to happen with or without them. So if they really wanted to speed things up they'd get on board and help out.

    Unrelated, an OSINT account with an update I'm not really sure what to make of:


    The Russian General Staff has sent out orders to Military Districts throughout the Country to begin raising and preparing “Reserve Battalions”, these Battalions will be made up of Short-Term Conscripts and older personnel who will go through a 30 Day Training Regiment.

    Is this just an additional 30 days for conscripts they already have? Or is this a whole new mobilization wave of troops that will only get 30 days of training? Because if it's the latter, it's not just desperate, it's stupid. Even in the world wars with troops driving into Soviet territory they didn't send in troops with just 4 weeks of training.

    I think it's analogous to calling up the army reserve, "short term conscripts" likely refers to folks who very recently ended their term of conscription. So in theory the 30 days is a refresher course for people who in theory remember some of their previous training.

    Yeah, I was thinking, 30 days isn't really enough time to properly haze, beat and rape the new recruits.

    But for people who went through it already, I'm sure the "training" will come back to them quickly enough.

    NetscapeMan in the Mists
  • [Expletive deleted][Expletive deleted] The mediocre doctor NorwayRegistered User regular
    ceres wrote: »
    Scooter wrote: »
    Germany's attempt to try and make this end 'quickly' by pushing for Ukraine to lose doesn't even really make sense on a practical level. At the end of the day, all Ukraine really needs to keep going is the US and Poland, everyone else is a bonus. And what do you know, those are the two countries that seem to be most solidly in support of fighting for a victory. So Germany and Italy and whoever else can go sulk in the corner all they want, this is going to happen with or without them. So if they really wanted to speed things up they'd get on board and help out.

    Unrelated, an OSINT account with an update I'm not really sure what to make of:


    The Russian General Staff has sent out orders to Military Districts throughout the Country to begin raising and preparing “Reserve Battalions”, these Battalions will be made up of Short-Term Conscripts and older personnel who will go through a 30 Day Training Regiment.

    Is this just an additional 30 days for conscripts they already have? Or is this a whole new mobilization wave of troops that will only get 30 days of training? Because if it's the latter, it's not just desperate, it's stupid. Even in the world wars with troops driving into Soviet territory they didn't send in troops with just 4 weeks of training.

    I don't think German leadership thinks that not aiding Ukraine will make them lose, they just don't want to be on Russia's bad side when this is over.

    That would tell me that they believe Russia is going to come out of this on top.

    Not necessarily. Merely that Russia will be in a state where Germany can (in principle) continue to buy oil and gas from them, and that doing so would be the cheapest option for German industry.

    Sic transit gloria mundi.
    rahkeesh2000GiantGeek2020JusticeforPlutoGnome-Interruptus
  • MuzzmuzzMuzzmuzz Registered User regular
    From a purely selfish reasoning, a loser Russia will probably be more desperate for cash than a victorious, smug Russia.

    NetscapeGiantGeek2020marajiGaddezAimShadowenoverride367A Kobold's KoboldMoridin889Martini_PhilosopherRingothatassemblyguyGennenalyse RuebenMunkus BeaverElvenshaeMan in the Mists
  • LabelLabel Registered User regular
    mmm, Russia may not have much economy left, if they lose.

    They may be better able to use and take in money, if they win.

    Maybe. I suppose it depends what sort of shape they're in if the government collapses.

  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    I know it's probably unfair of me to compare Scholz to Ribbentrop, but... :/

    steam_sig.png
    Steam, Warframe: Megajoule
  • honoverehonovere Registered User regular
    I know it's probably unfair of me to compare Scholz to Ribbentrop, but... :/

    Now we're talking Godwin's law.

  • V1mV1m Registered User regular
    edited May 28
    Jewish leaders get a pass on Godwin's law, right?

    IIRC Godwin himself has said that yeah, Putin is directly comparable to Hitler now. I'm sure I recall seeing the tweet back in March sometime.
    Muzzmuzz wrote: »
    From a purely selfish reasoning, a loser Russia will probably be more desperate for cash than a victorious, smug Russia.

    Both Russias will be desperate for cash. Both will be dangerously unreliable business partners for slightly different reasons.

    V1m on
    Commander ZoomNetscapebrynhrtmnGiantGeek2020marajiSmrtnikA Kobold's KoboldMoridin889Martini_PhilosopherGennenalyse RuebenElvenshaeMan in the Mists
  • rahkeesh2000rahkeesh2000 Registered User regular
    Don't even know why we are bandying about "Loser" and "Winner." Russia is unlikely to take Kyiv and Ukraine is even less likely to take Crimea. It's not going to be a black-and-white outcome. Even if Putin is somehow deposed, Russia is still going to have a lot of fuel and Scholz et. al. will still want it.

    MovitzGiantGeek2020ShadowenJusticeforPluto
  • V1mV1m Registered User regular
    Don't even know why we are bandying about "Loser" and "Winner." Russia is unlikely to take Kyiv and Ukraine is even less likely to take Crimea. It's not going to be a black-and-white outcome. Even if Putin is somehow deposed, Russia is still going to have a lot of fuel and Scholz et. al. will still want it.

    Both Russia and Ukraine have already 'lost' in the sense that they will be significantly worse off for a decade at least. At this point, as is usual with a war that lasts more than a month, it's about each trying to make the other side lose even more, even faster in an attempt to force them to accept terms. Ukraine by destroying Russia's military (and with the help of Western sanctions, their economy), Russia by leveraging their initial huge military advantage and by attempting to undermine Ukrainian morale with terror tactics.

    When we, here, talk about winning and losing, we really mean is whether we will win or lose here. If Russia is comprehensively defeated militarily and by sanctions, then we win because militaristic adventurism will be off the table for Russia for a generation, and will be strongly deterred elsewhere. The world will be somewhat more peaceful, the US can finally get on with the Pacific Pivot, the Black Sea and Baltic states can rest considerably easier, and so on.

    If Russia ultimately forces Ukraine to accept terms then the opposite case will be in effect, and I advise anyone who has any upcoming IT hardware purchases to make them sooner rather than later.

    GiantGeek2020NetscapeStarZapperElvenshae
  • ProhassProhass Registered User regular
    edited May 28
    Yeah if Russia is appeased and in any sense sees what they end up with as a net positive, all we are facing is the same situation over and over again as they bite off more and more chunks not just of ukraine but everywhere else they please, and this time they don’t repeat the mistakes of the first few days of the invasion

    Prohass on
    GiantGeek2020AimNetscapemarajiMr Rayvalhalla130Elvenshae
  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    Scooter wrote: »
    Germany's attempt to try and make this end 'quickly' by pushing for Ukraine to lose doesn't even really make sense on a practical level. At the end of the day, all Ukraine really needs to keep going is the US and Poland, everyone else is a bonus. And what do you know, those are the two countries that seem to be most solidly in support of fighting for a victory. So Germany and Italy and whoever else can go sulk in the corner all they want, this is going to happen with or without them. So if they really wanted to speed things up they'd get on board and help out.

    Unrelated, an OSINT account with an update I'm not really sure what to make of:


    The Russian General Staff has sent out orders to Military Districts throughout the Country to begin raising and preparing “Reserve Battalions”, these Battalions will be made up of Short-Term Conscripts and older personnel who will go through a 30 Day Training Regiment.

    Is this just an additional 30 days for conscripts they already have? Or is this a whole new mobilization wave of troops that will only get 30 days of training? Because if it's the latter, it's not just desperate, it's stupid. Even in the world wars with troops driving into Soviet territory they didn't send in troops with just 4 weeks of training.

    I don't think German leadership thinks that not aiding Ukraine will make them lose, they just don't want to be on Russia's bad side when this is over.

    Depending on how this ends it's entirely possible that russia winds up in a reversed power role WRT europe and if I'm a country that is heavily reliant on them ATM it would be entirely in my interest to make them my economic bitch.

    Elvenshae
  • MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    Gaddez wrote: »
    Scooter wrote: »
    Germany's attempt to try and make this end 'quickly' by pushing for Ukraine to lose doesn't even really make sense on a practical level. At the end of the day, all Ukraine really needs to keep going is the US and Poland, everyone else is a bonus. And what do you know, those are the two countries that seem to be most solidly in support of fighting for a victory. So Germany and Italy and whoever else can go sulk in the corner all they want, this is going to happen with or without them. So if they really wanted to speed things up they'd get on board and help out.

    Unrelated, an OSINT account with an update I'm not really sure what to make of:


    The Russian General Staff has sent out orders to Military Districts throughout the Country to begin raising and preparing “Reserve Battalions”, these Battalions will be made up of Short-Term Conscripts and older personnel who will go through a 30 Day Training Regiment.

    Is this just an additional 30 days for conscripts they already have? Or is this a whole new mobilization wave of troops that will only get 30 days of training? Because if it's the latter, it's not just desperate, it's stupid. Even in the world wars with troops driving into Soviet territory they didn't send in troops with just 4 weeks of training.

    I don't think German leadership thinks that not aiding Ukraine will make them lose, they just don't want to be on Russia's bad side when this is over.

    Depending on how this ends it's entirely possible that russia winds up in a reversed power role WRT europe and if I'm a country that is heavily reliant on them ATM it would be entirely in my interest to make them my economic bitch.

    ... make sure I'm not ever reliant on them again as soon as possible, as they're proven bad faith actors.

    THEN make them your economic bitch.

    I mean, you can continue to purchase from them (after a certain period following the end of hostilities*) if they offer a particularly appealing rate. But you need the capacity to switch off/have them stop, with minimal disruption, for if/when they try this again. They should never be a primary, let alone sole provider of any staple product.

    * Actually, that'd be a great argument for the West to make, if it looks like Russia might try to engage in "frozen conflict". You want to keep up hostilities along the border? Sanctions stay in place. Sort that shit out, THEN we'll talk trade.

    GiantGeek2020GaddezNetscapemarajiMoridin889
  • bwaniebwanie Posting into the void Registered User regular
    Yeah Scholz is on his own here. This could end very badly for his political future and i can only hope it comes to bear.

    Fucking spineless coward daring to speak for the whole of Germany and Europe to boot.

    Go and be lost forever.

    Yh6tI4T.jpg
    SmrtnikGaddezscherbchenAimV1melectricitylikesmeGiantGeek2020EchoShadowenStabbity StyleNetscapeGrudgeNobodyA Kobold's KoboldFencingsaxsarukunLabelMoridin889stopgapJusticeforPlutoMartini_PhilosopherRingoPreacherthatassemblyguyMr RayGennenalyse RuebenMunkus Beavervalhalla130AbsoluteZeroshrykeCantideElvenshaespool32Bullhead
  • manwiththemachinegunmanwiththemachinegun METAL GEAR?! Registered User regular
    Prohass wrote: »
    Yeah if Russia is appeased and in any sense sees what they end up with as a net positive, all we are facing is the same situation over and over again as they bite off more and more chunks not just of ukraine but everywhere else they please, and this time they don’t repeat the mistakes of the first few days of the invasion

    Are you SURE about that?

  • MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    Prohass wrote: »
    Yeah if Russia is appeased and in any sense sees what they end up with as a net positive, all we are facing is the same situation over and over again as they bite off more and more chunks not just of ukraine but everywhere else they please, and this time they don’t repeat the mistakes of the first few days of the invasion

    Are you SURE about that?

    I am. They simply don't have the resources to fuck up on that breadth of scale again.

    Doesn't mean they can't fuck up in a new, different and spectacular way in the future, but putting 125 BTG's into play and getting fuck all but a bloody nose out of it, I think that kind of mistake is off the board.

    Especially given the higher level leadership that's been killed or imprisoned. The reckoning if Putin survives this, and Russia are forced into defeat, is likely to get pretty lousy with falling brass. I bet Putin will provide them with adequate defenestrate attorneys.

    ForarProhassElvenshae
  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    Prohass wrote: »
    Yeah if Russia is appeased and in any sense sees what they end up with as a net positive, all we are facing is the same situation over and over again as they bite off more and more chunks not just of ukraine but everywhere else they please, and this time they don’t repeat the mistakes of the first few days of the invasion

    Are you SURE about that?

    I don't think we need to assess the success of a second invasion to conclude the existance of a second invasion itself is terrible for everyone.

    Shadowen
  • AimAim Registered User regular
    Prohass wrote: »
    Yeah if Russia is appeased and in any sense sees what they end up with as a net positive, all we are facing is the same situation over and over again as they bite off more and more chunks not just of ukraine but everywhere else they please, and this time they don’t repeat the mistakes of the first few days of the invasion

    Are you SURE about that?

    I don't think we need to assess the success of a second invasion to conclude the existance of a second invasion itself is terrible for everyone.

    Technically it would be a third, no?

    Netscape
  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    Aim wrote: »
    Prohass wrote: »
    Yeah if Russia is appeased and in any sense sees what they end up with as a net positive, all we are facing is the same situation over and over again as they bite off more and more chunks not just of ukraine but everywhere else they please, and this time they don’t repeat the mistakes of the first few days of the invasion

    Are you SURE about that?

    I don't think we need to assess the success of a second invasion to conclude the existance of a second invasion itself is terrible for everyone.

    Technically it would be a third, no?

    That would imply they withdrew after 2014

Sign In or Register to comment.