Skeletal mages I'm not sure. I think Poison is the better ult most of the time, and Mages would only be picked in instances where a chunk of the enemy team relies on move speed. But if you WERE in a situation where you think the slow of Mages is the better pick, then enhancing the slow by a large amount isn't too bad.
Apoc 20 being weak I think is more about Apoc itself being weak. It's one of the only ults that practically requires a teammate combo to be effective. But it's practically the same upgrade as X-Strike, but better. So I'd still say X-Strike 20 is the worse upgrade.
Apoc 20 relies on you dieing. That's like using tyrael's trait as an ult. It's not something you can control when to proc, nor can you reliable combo off of it. It's just an 'ok team I'm afk for 20s-120s, gl'
Skeletal Mages 20 I don't think I've ever actually seen one spawn extras in a real fight.
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Apoc 20 you get for the CDR not for the death trigger
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
warlord's challenge 20 one of the pretty bad ones that is never taken.
Also you are all on crazy pills if you think x-strike 20 is bad - ppl clump - nova clones are in 20% of your games - and spamming resets is fun
warlord's challenge 20 isn't great, but I pick it all the time because the only other option is throwing 2 people, which is a downgrade for the isolation effect I'm usually throwing people to get.
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But seriously, what is with the dedicated push Murkies taking it? It's only useful if they have absolutely zero resistance in pushing a structure, but in that case why wouldn't puffer fish and the level 20 slime upgrade do more siege damage?
But seriously, what is with the dedicated push Murkies taking it? It's only useful if they have absolutely zero resistance in pushing a structure, but in that case why wouldn't puffer fish and the level 20 slime upgrade do more siege damage?
Skeletal mages I'm not sure. I think Poison is the better ult most of the time, and Mages would only be picked in instances where a chunk of the enemy team relies on move speed. But if you WERE in a situation where you think the slow of Mages is the better pick, then enhancing the slow by a large amount isn't too bad.
Apoc 20 being weak I think is more about Apoc itself being weak. It's one of the only ults that practically requires a teammate combo to be effective. But it's practically the same upgrade as X-Strike, but better. So I'd still say X-Strike 20 is the worse upgrade.
Apoc 20 relies on you dieing. That's like using tyrael's trait as an ult. It's not something you can control when to proc, nor can you reliable combo off of it. It's just an 'ok team I'm afk for 20s-120s, gl'
Skeletal Mages 20 I don't think I've ever actually seen one spawn extras in a real fight.
Yup. The dying proc is just a bonus. The CDR is more useful if your team combo allows you to hit a lot with it.
The most useful thing about Skeletal Mages 20 is the 20% extra slow. That can be pretty huge against a melee team.
Cold Hand of Death can have a lot of value. You're constantly spawning Mages in teamfights, which can really gum up enemy melee. The problem is that Mortal Wound is an essentially permanent 75% healing reduction under those same circumstances, and that's almost universally better.
March of the Murlocs lets your Murky hit the core from over the wall on Hanamura Temple. I've seen Fan burn half a core's health in Bronze league before they found him.
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Cold Hand of Death can have a lot of value. You're constantly spawning Mages in teamfights, which can really gum up enemy melee. The problem is that Mortal Wound is an essentially permanent 75% healing reduction under those same circumstances, and that's almost universally better.
Let me tell you about the frequency of well rounded team comps in QM..
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Yeah but that's QM. QM is less of a mode than ARAM.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
I never bother with any Scatter Arrow talents. I've seen some people who can use them, but I just blindly fire them off because the time I spend trying to angle a shot is never worth the damage and positioning I give up.
Almost always go Redemption quest for lvl 1. Unless there's no easy to hit frontline, then I'll go with the Q quest but even that is wonky because it can be tricky to complete it in a reasonable time and it's not that outstanding for the trouble you go through.
Almost always pick the stun arrow ult. I consider Dragonstrike like Diablo's Apocalypse: devastating if it works, but practically needs an ally combo to hit. It can be used to zone in some specific map instances, but the reliable AoE stun of the other ult is almost always more useful.
(Dragonstrike's lvl 20 is more useful, but picking an ult based on what it will become at 20 isn't a great strategy)
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Hanzos other ult is just there to troll your teammates.
And you have to be good at scatter arrows or hanzo isn’t a good hero
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
I dunno, I've been getting a lot of results like this with not a single deliberately aimed scatter arrow all game.
The zinger that game was Anduin kept thinking he was safe to hit Salvation after my stun ult was burned, only for my sonic arrow lvl 20 upgrade to stun their whole team huddled together. Though I'm honestly not sure why he took Salvation in the first place given our team's abundant CC (octo-grab and Maw were in play).
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The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
Almost always pick the stun arrow ult. I consider Dragonstrike like Diablo's Apocalypse: devastating if it works, but practically needs an ally combo to hit. It can be used to zone in some specific map instances, but the reliable AoE stun of the other ult is almost always more useful.
Aight hold on, I need to check in here because this is the second time I've seen you say this. You're aware Diablo can guarantee the two second stun and nuke on someone by pressing R and then doing Q->E to suplex someone back into it, right? And then your team is in the clear to blow that person up bc everyone else on the enemy team is forced into avoiding their own stuns, leaving them with limited agency to counter what your team is doing?
If you have have like Zarya Gravitoning a team to set you up Lightning Breath is arguably better than Apoc, even. Apoc is a pick and pseudo-zoning ult.
The "trick" with being good at aiming scatter arrow isn't spending a bunch of time being good at lining up the W - but just learning which walls give you good scatter arrows and looking for targets that are standing near a wall.
The "trick" with being good at aiming scatter arrow isn't spending a bunch of time being good at lining up the W - but just learning which walls give you good scatter arrows and looking for targets that are standing near a wall.
I don't doubt it's devastating if you can pull off that crazy zen geometry.
I look at focusing on Scatter like I do Hogger vs Sonya. If you're an amazing expert at terrain ricochet angles, the choice is obvious. Otherwise...well, it's obvious in the other direction.
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
The "trick" with being good at aiming scatter arrow isn't spending a bunch of time being good at lining up the W - but just learning which walls give you good scatter arrows and looking for targets that are standing near a wall.
Also, just stand still and aim properly. Hanzo's range is such that he is pretty safe, particularly if you're just aiming a Scatter and you aren't trying to be fancy with auto attacks.
But yeah, wait for someone to stand next to a wall. Shoot the arrow right at the wall in front of them. This is basically the HotS version of the old Overwatch trick where Hanzo players would aim right at someone's feet.
The "trick" with being good at aiming scatter arrow isn't spending a bunch of time being good at lining up the W - but just learning which walls give you good scatter arrows and looking for targets that are standing near a wall.
I don't doubt it's devastating if you can pull off that crazy zen geometry.
I look at focusing on Scatter like I do Hogger vs Sonya. If you're an amazing expert at terrain ricochet angles, the choice is obvious. Otherwise...well, it's obvious in the other direction.
Do you have quick cast on? If you do, turn it off for Hanzo. It makes those shots way easier.
I'd say an aba hat is .25, at best. Can give tiny shields but mostly it's the dmg and small speed or aa burst.
And yet his hat instantly and dramatically changes the outcome of nearly every single matchup.
Breakpoints and thresholds are a thing. This is why healers are also difficult to balance in a PvP setting.
Imagine two heroes.
Hero A has 200 HP and hits for 20 damage, attacking once per second.
Hero B has 150 HP and hits for 30 damage, attacking once per second.
Hero A can kill Hero B in 8 strikes.
Hero B can kill Hero A in in 7 strikes.
In any 1v1 duel, Hero B will win with 10 HP remaining.
Now imagine that Hero A gets a 5 damage buff, which is "only" a 25% damage increase.
Hero A can now kill Hero B in 6 strikes, and will have 20 HP remaining.
This is not just an effective 30 HP swing, it also entirely changes the outcome of the fight. In contexts such as solo lanes, where basically the entire match-up is determined in a 1v1 setting, one player having an Abathur hat can dramatically alter whether that player goes from a certain loss to literally bullying the other solo laner and forcing a rotation.
Now apply this to heroes such as Illidan, who not only heals on damage but lowers cooldowns every time he strikes. Giving him an attack speed buff has a synergistic effect which doesn't "just" buff his damage by some small percentage and push him over certain kill thresholds - it also enables him to do things like juke skill shots every 2 seconds instead of every 3 seconds while also enabling him to heal damage more quickly, turning what was once a YOLO death into a fight where he comes out with half his HP left over.
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The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
I will never forget the time I saw a Gul'dan with an Aba hat and the longer death timer talent lose a fight to a solo Uther.
Guldie doesn't win any 1v1s against anyone that can cancel his suck suck.
Also, Q build Uther is a pretty excellent duelist.
This was yeeeeeears ago, I don't think Q build Uther existed.
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Yeah, exactly. Aba Hat is incredibly powerful and impactful. It might seem on paper that it "only" adds a bit of haste, bonus damage, a small shield, etc. But that's often more than enough to completely change a matchup.
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Apoc 20 relies on you dieing. That's like using tyrael's trait as an ult. It's not something you can control when to proc, nor can you reliable combo off of it. It's just an 'ok team I'm afk for 20s-120s, gl'
Skeletal Mages 20 I don't think I've ever actually seen one spawn extras in a real fight.
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wra
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wra
Also you are all on crazy pills if you think x-strike 20 is bad - ppl clump - nova clones are in 20% of your games - and spamming resets is fun
warlord's challenge 20 isn't great, but I pick it all the time because the only other option is throwing 2 people, which is a downgrade for the isolation effect I'm usually throwing people to get.
But seriously, what is with the dedicated push Murkies taking it? It's only useful if they have absolutely zero resistance in pushing a structure, but in that case why wouldn't puffer fish and the level 20 slime upgrade do more siege damage?
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Yup. The dying proc is just a bonus. The CDR is more useful if your team combo allows you to hit a lot with it.
The most useful thing about Skeletal Mages 20 is the 20% extra slow. That can be pretty huge against a melee team.
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Let me tell you about the frequency of well rounded team comps in QM..
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wra
I never bother with any Scatter Arrow talents. I've seen some people who can use them, but I just blindly fire them off because the time I spend trying to angle a shot is never worth the damage and positioning I give up.
Almost always go Redemption quest for lvl 1. Unless there's no easy to hit frontline, then I'll go with the Q quest but even that is wonky because it can be tricky to complete it in a reasonable time and it's not that outstanding for the trouble you go through.
Almost always pick the stun arrow ult. I consider Dragonstrike like Diablo's Apocalypse: devastating if it works, but practically needs an ally combo to hit. It can be used to zone in some specific map instances, but the reliable AoE stun of the other ult is almost always more useful.
(Dragonstrike's lvl 20 is more useful, but picking an ult based on what it will become at 20 isn't a great strategy)
And you have to be good at scatter arrows or hanzo isn’t a good hero
The zinger that game was Anduin kept thinking he was safe to hit Salvation after my stun ult was burned, only for my sonic arrow lvl 20 upgrade to stun their whole team huddled together. Though I'm honestly not sure why he took Salvation in the first place given our team's abundant CC (octo-grab and Maw were in play).
Aight hold on, I need to check in here because this is the second time I've seen you say this. You're aware Diablo can guarantee the two second stun and nuke on someone by pressing R and then doing Q->E to suplex someone back into it, right? And then your team is in the clear to blow that person up bc everyone else on the enemy team is forced into avoiding their own stuns, leaving them with limited agency to counter what your team is doing?
If you have have like Zarya Gravitoning a team to set you up Lightning Breath is arguably better than Apoc, even. Apoc is a pick and pseudo-zoning ult.
I don't doubt it's devastating if you can pull off that crazy zen geometry.
I look at focusing on Scatter like I do Hogger vs Sonya. If you're an amazing expert at terrain ricochet angles, the choice is obvious. Otherwise...well, it's obvious in the other direction.
Also, just stand still and aim properly. Hanzo's range is such that he is pretty safe, particularly if you're just aiming a Scatter and you aren't trying to be fancy with auto attacks.
But yeah, wait for someone to stand next to a wall. Shoot the arrow right at the wall in front of them. This is basically the HotS version of the old Overwatch trick where Hanzo players would aim right at someone's feet.
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wra
Watch all of them. Even those that don't look close by results were insane games.
That WildHeart one... Holy. Shit.
Even the casters were speechless. Not an exaggeration.
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wra
FRIGGIN LITERAL 13-HEAD PLAYS
seriously, whoever is their shot-caller deserves a statue
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wra
Do you have quick cast on? If you do, turn it off for Hanzo. It makes those shots way easier.
1:38 Stop trying to solo fight people with Aba hats! You're always outnumbered.
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No hp to soak, no body to block with or take skillshots, no real cc...
I'd say an aba hat is .25, at best. Can give tiny shields but mostly it's the dmg and small speed or aa burst.
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wra
Guldie doesn't win any 1v1s against anyone that can cancel his suck suck.
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wra
Also, Q build Uther is a pretty excellent duelist.
And yet his hat instantly and dramatically changes the outcome of nearly every single matchup.
Breakpoints and thresholds are a thing. This is why healers are also difficult to balance in a PvP setting.
This is not just an effective 30 HP swing, it also entirely changes the outcome of the fight. In contexts such as solo lanes, where basically the entire match-up is determined in a 1v1 setting, one player having an Abathur hat can dramatically alter whether that player goes from a certain loss to literally bullying the other solo laner and forcing a rotation.
Now apply this to heroes such as Illidan, who not only heals on damage but lowers cooldowns every time he strikes. Giving him an attack speed buff has a synergistic effect which doesn't "just" buff his damage by some small percentage and push him over certain kill thresholds - it also enables him to do things like juke skill shots every 2 seconds instead of every 3 seconds while also enabling him to heal damage more quickly, turning what was once a YOLO death into a fight where he comes out with half his HP left over.
This was yeeeeeears ago, I don't think Q build Uther existed.
Yeah, looking at it as "a small damage boost and shield" is utterly ignoring how much of a force magnifier it is.