The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
edited July 2022
Abathur really came into prespective for me when my friends dragged me into playing League and I saw how everyone in the community absolutely vociferously hated Yuumi and her impact on the game.
If you're unfamiliar, Yuumi is like a more powerful version of Aba hat, but who needs to be nearby (no global or splitpush presence whatsoever) to hat someone and is completely vulnerable if the person she's hatting gets killed.
Yeah throw me on board for being absolutely sick of Aba.
Mostly his AA build, which breaks almost any hero with cdr tied to auto attacks. It's too much of an exponential force multiplier.
Have I mentioned how much I hate hate HATE Samuro? He's like a top skill ceiling Zeratul with even less counterplay.
Shoot his illusion? You lose.
Shoot the real one? He swaps and now you're shooting an illusion. You lose.
Try shooting all of them so he has no high health one to swap to? You were shooting every illusion. You lose.
Actually manage to kill all illusions and are positioned to finish off the real one? He still has at least 2 more escapes: a blink, a cloak, a heal, AND a move speed boost.
Every other stealth hero can be directly countered. Most are in trouble if you manage to find and uncloak (the real) them. Even a master Zeratul can be cc'd with alert timing when he jumps someone.
There's just no "correct" answer to him other than hoping he slips up with illusions or mistakes. Your only other option is to press forward and hope you can route the rest of his team while trying to ignore him. He's not the most impactful and damaging, but it's pointless trying to address him. He's horrible to play against even if you win. It doesn't feel like you're pitting skills against someone, just throwing up your hands and hope your team wins despite him.
Sammy is also extremely tough to play well. I've watched Fan play Sam properly, and woof, that's a lot to consider. Sure, he rarely dies, but also doesn't do a lot if you aren't double soaking. His kill power is also pretty low, but that's a good thing all things considered.
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Blizzard has been putting the cart before the horse for a long time now. And he's right; that strategy radiates really obvious "I want mine" energy, and it has led to failure after failure because they keep trying to synthesize communities that need to develop organically.
What Richard said about moba fans being interested in big name players, and how HotS is really counter-intuitively designed to accommodate that, is especially true. I remember saying years ago that the HotS scene was a joke. Not because the players were bad (although, you guys remember Heroes of the Dorm? That shit was painful to watch most of the time), but because it's fucking boring --
You basically cannot carry. Any time a hero is capable of hard carrying (let's say Genji) Blizzard balances them out of reach for 99% of the community.
It's very hard to rally behind someone during a match because they're just soaking out of their minds guys holy shit.
Blizzard has no fucking idea what they're doing anymore, and it's been that way for a very long time now.
Perhaps it was doomed to happen, but I'm glad it was what it was while it lasted.
Like, it's not the first time this has come up, but a lot of the proposed "improvements" needed to make the game "successful" are just things I wouldn't want. There's a good chance a successful HotS is something I wouldn't have really played, akin to the existing successful MOBAs. I'm glad we had HotS.
HotS is easily my favorite MOBA, and also one of my most favorite games of all time.
But it's also a game where I personally disagreed with nearly every design decision they made along the way. This is only personal opinion, but each major balance revision -- like when they drastically reduced TTK to more closely match their competitors -- I felt like each of those decisions made the game worse and made the game less distinct. Less HotS-y.
From the very beginning, Blizzard was trend chasing and League chasing. Their goal was to hit player numbers that would compete with League and DotA2. And since they never hit those numbers, the game was always a failure in their eyes, even before they killed it.
They set out originally to make a game that took a shorter amount of time to play, was more accessible to the masses, and more objective based. They succeeded initially in that regard. And during the early beta stages and pre-release times was the best the game ever was. And each major patch moved the game further away from their initial vision (and further away from the things that attracted me to the game in the first place.)
Being totally different from League didn't get them the big player numbers they were hoping for so they kept moving the game closer and closer to League, and each step made it worse. In my opinion.
The best the game ever was was before their big HotS 2.0 release when they added all the free-to-play shit and made it into a mobile game. All those sprays and emotes and shit they added? That was unnecessary and just added bloat. I understand that they were trying to monetize and squeeze more money. But it also made the game less good. And along with those out-of-match bloaty system changes, they also rebalanced combat and made it less good.
For me, personally, HotS died a long time ago. It died when they stopped trying to be unique and started trying to more closely match their competitors so that they could carve a bigger piece of the pie.
To this day, HotS is the only game I have ever followed or cared about the eSports scene. I was invested in the teams, the rivalries, the players, and all of that. It was a magical time, and I miss those early days dearly.
Now can we actually say that HotS is dead without people getting their knickers in a twist???
You can say whatever you want, people are also fine to disagree with you and it doesn't automatically make them immature and wrong.
this is a very funny way of not answering Dibby's question while simultaneously answering Dibby's question
I feel like Dibby was being quite rude about it, and it seems like you are too. Am I misinterpreting this or are y'all just being mean for no reason?
the root of this conversation (in my estimation) comes from seeing "this game is dead" as a personal attack because one enjoys the game, and then arguing against it as a result
this is probably more relevant to the conversations had back when the standby development phase was announced, but getting defensive over someone who used to enjoy the game lamenting and coming to terms with the dev all but abandoning it is kinda weird, imo. what's to gain from having that conversation?
this is my interpretation of why dibby asked if people would give up on the 'debate' now that it's actually, fully confirmed to be the case
I hope this explanation made sense
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
Blizzard did this really weird thing with the game direction where they pushed towards pro design and balance but absolutely refused to move away from team-wide level and player parity. So it was almost like they doubled down on their mistakes, because you had heroes that were balanced against the knife's edge of high-skill potential but who were then doubly dependent upon having high-skilled teammates who were willing to coordinate. Which then caused this problem where the audience had no way to meaningfully discern player skill from team skill except for the most egregious mistakes (rather than the biggest individual plays).
Rich is widely regarded as the most highly-skilled HotS player in the world, and yet if you put him in front of anyone watching his pro games it is practically impossible for the viewer to identify that fact in the absence of commentary telling you otherwise (instead of the game just evidently showing you). This is not the case in pretty much any other game or sport. Even football, widely regarded as the most coordinated and complicated sport to execute from a team perspective, regularly allows for players to showcase individual skill.
Can anyone think of any individual plays which they recall that turned the course of a game? The biggest play I remember that showcased someone's skill was POILK pulling off that Repulsion Li Ming combo, and even that was at the end of a game that was pretty much already won, so it didn't actually matter in the grand scheme of things.
Now can we actually say that HotS is dead without people getting their knickers in a twist???
You can say whatever you want, people are also fine to disagree with you and it doesn't automatically make them immature and wrong.
this is a very funny way of not answering Dibby's question while simultaneously answering Dibby's question
I feel like Dibby was being quite rude about it, and it seems like you are too. Am I misinterpreting this or are y'all just being mean for no reason?
the root of this conversation (in my estimation) comes from seeing "this game is dead" as a personal attack because one enjoys the game, and then arguing against it as a result
this is probably more relevant to the conversations had back when the standby development phase was announced, but getting defensive over someone who used to enjoy the game lamenting and coming to terms with the dev all but abandoning it is kinda weird, imo. what's to gain from having that conversation?
this is my interpretation of why dibby asked if people would give up on the 'debate' now that it's actually, fully confirmed to be the case
I hope this explanation made sense
I've never saw "this game is dead" as a personal attack. I see what Dibby said there as a personal attack, though!
The issue as I see it is that some people liked to feel like they were smarter or something by declaring the game as being "dead". Maybe it just gave them some relief from the lack of updates or something, I dunno. The idea that responding to "the game is dead" with "I don't think it is because people still play it and there's an active community and the servers are still up and such" as defending it like it's a personal attack is weird! Why would you think that?
The idea that I can't just disagree with you without you thinking it has to be because I took it personally is weird! It seems immature and belittling to your fellow threadgoers. "Obviously they are disagreeing because they just took it personally. There's no logical reason I could be wrong or they could think differently than me!"
Again though, Dibby comin' in and asking if anyone is going to "get their knickers in a twist" again, like that's obviously what happens every other time he tries to shed some light on us ignorant people, is rude and insulting, I think. Saying you think the game is dead isn't.
I'd love if you could point out where people took "I think HotS is dead" personally.
Blizzard did this really weird thing with the game direction where they pushed towards pro design and balance but absolutely refused to move away from team-wide level and player parity. So it was almost like they doubled down on their mistakes, because you had heroes that were balanced against the knife's edge of high-skill potential but who were then doubly dependent upon having high-skilled teammates who were willing to coordinate. Which then caused this problem where the audience had no way to meaningfully discern player skill from team skill except for the most egregious mistakes (rather than the biggest individual plays).
Rich is widely regarded as the most highly-skilled HotS player in the world, and yet if you put him in front of anyone watching his pro games it is practically impossible for the viewer to identify that fact in the absence of commentary telling you otherwise (instead of the game just evidently showing you). This is not the case in pretty much any other game or sport. Even football, widely regarded as the most coordinated and complicated sport to execute from a team perspective, regularly allows for players to showcase individual skill.
Can anyone think of any individual plays which they recall that turned the course of a game? The biggest play I remember that showcased someone's skill was POILK pulling off that Repulsion Li Ming combo, and even that was at the end of a game that was pretty much already won, so it didn't actually matter in the grand scheme of things.
There have been plenty of games that ended off of a falstad flanking and hitting a big lvl 20 gust that put the whole team into a wall - and visually it's pretty easy to tell that setup is what is winning the game - everyone else just has to put their damage in the same spot.
For years Diablo just got to delete ppl out of position - no team required, but the skill there is hard to recognize maybe since it's a lot of micro positioning and just catching that second when another hero steps into a wall angle.
The HGC years of this game were rough though because pro games the winning team often sat a full talent advantage up the entire game; though I have no memory of when all the various xp changes actually happened
Now can we actually say that HotS is dead without people getting their knickers in a twist???
You can say whatever you want, people are also fine to disagree with you and it doesn't automatically make them immature and wrong.
this is a very funny way of not answering Dibby's question while simultaneously answering Dibby's question
I feel like Dibby was being quite rude about it, and it seems like you are too. Am I misinterpreting this or are y'all just being mean for no reason?
the root of this conversation (in my estimation) comes from seeing "this game is dead" as a personal attack because one enjoys the game, and then arguing against it as a result
this is probably more relevant to the conversations had back when the standby development phase was announced, but getting defensive over someone who used to enjoy the game lamenting and coming to terms with the dev all but abandoning it is kinda weird, imo. what's to gain from having that conversation?
this is my interpretation of why dibby asked if people would give up on the 'debate' now that it's actually, fully confirmed to be the case
I hope this explanation made sense
I've never saw "this game is dead" as a personal attack. I see what Dibby said there as a personal attack, though!
The issue as I see it is that some people liked to feel like they were smarter or something by declaring the game as being "dead". Maybe it just gave them some relief from the lack of updates or something, I dunno. The idea that responding to "the game is dead" with "I don't think it is because people still play it and there's an active community and the servers are still up and such" as defending it like it's a personal attack is weird! Why would you think that?
The idea that I can't just disagree with you without you thinking it has to be because I took it personally is weird! It seems immature and belittling to your fellow threadgoers. "Obviously they are disagreeing because they just took it personally. There's no logical reason I could be wrong or they could think differently than me!"
Again though, Dibby comin' in and asking if anyone is going to "get their knickers in a twist" again, like that's obviously what happens every other time he tries to shed some light on us ignorant people, is rude and insulting, I think. Saying you think the game is dead isn't.
I'd love if you could point out where people took "I think HotS is dead" personally.
It was legitimately a joke because we've had the age old "Is HotS a dead game" debate for ages and ages and ages. This thread has argued back and forth on that forever so now that we have an official word and official closure on the matter, it seemed fine to make a fun little poke at it.
There was no personal attack, I wasn't being rude or insulting, and I'm honestly not sure why you're taking it so personally and acting as if I've done some sort of egregious heinous crime here.
Not once did I ever make mention that anyone here was "ignorant" nor "immature and wrong", I would appreciate you not putting words in my mouth there.
Now can we actually say that HotS is dead without people getting their knickers in a twist???
You can say whatever you want, people are also fine to disagree with you and it doesn't automatically make them immature and wrong.
this is a very funny way of not answering Dibby's question while simultaneously answering Dibby's question
I feel like Dibby was being quite rude about it, and it seems like you are too. Am I misinterpreting this or are y'all just being mean for no reason?
the root of this conversation (in my estimation) comes from seeing "this game is dead" as a personal attack because one enjoys the game, and then arguing against it as a result
this is probably more relevant to the conversations had back when the standby development phase was announced, but getting defensive over someone who used to enjoy the game lamenting and coming to terms with the dev all but abandoning it is kinda weird, imo. what's to gain from having that conversation?
this is my interpretation of why dibby asked if people would give up on the 'debate' now that it's actually, fully confirmed to be the case
I hope this explanation made sense
I've never saw "this game is dead" as a personal attack. I see what Dibby said there as a personal attack, though!
The issue as I see it is that some people liked to feel like they were smarter or something by declaring the game as being "dead". Maybe it just gave them some relief from the lack of updates or something, I dunno. The idea that responding to "the game is dead" with "I don't think it is because people still play it and there's an active community and the servers are still up and such" as defending it like it's a personal attack is weird! Why would you think that?
The idea that I can't just disagree with you without you thinking it has to be because I took it personally is weird! It seems immature and belittling to your fellow threadgoers. "Obviously they are disagreeing because they just took it personally. There's no logical reason I could be wrong or they could think differently than me!"
Again though, Dibby comin' in and asking if anyone is going to "get their knickers in a twist" again, like that's obviously what happens every other time he tries to shed some light on us ignorant people, is rude and insulting, I think. Saying you think the game is dead isn't.
I'd love if you could point out where people took "I think HotS is dead" personally.
It was legitimately a joke because we've had the age old "Is HotS a dead game" debate for ages and ages and ages. This thread has argued back and forth on that forever so now that we have an official word and official closure on the matter, it seemed fine to make a fun little poke at it.
There was no personal attack, I wasn't being rude or insulting, and I'm honestly not sure why you're taking it so personally and acting as if I've done some sort of egregious heinous crime here.
Not once did I ever make mention that anyone here was "ignorant" nor "immature and wrong", I would appreciate you not putting words in my mouth there.
I'm gonna assume we're just not understanding each other and not that you're intentionally being dishonest. It doesn't matter anyways, so I'm not planning on continuing. Agree to disagree or whatever.
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
The game needed a lot of things to really help it succeed. It needed less movement speed (i.e. no mounts), a second resource to fight over besides XP, single ultimates, and a better reflection of post-draft elements. There's not a lot you can do in game if the enemy team grabbed a last second hero that needs a specific resource to counter (i.e. % damage). Talents were too rigid of a system while locking down more design space on a per hero basis.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Fan basically saying it like it is. I gave up on new content a while ago, so I'm not heartbroken about anything new getting added. Occasional balance changes would be nice, but I sort of feel that's not a thing that's gonna happen much, or at all.
But a lack of changes isn't necessarily a bad thing. StarCraft: Brood War evolved a lot for years after the game was in an unchanged state. Granted that had more to do with map pool rotations from the eSports scene, but there's no reason HotS can't have it's own fan-grown meta shift.
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But the true indicator of dead HotS is when this thread could finally get 20+ posts in a few hours and you didn't have Dibby or MMMig or someone charging in making a post thinking something was happening and then being sad to find it was just an argument about Abathur or Murky or how QM is a dumpster fire.
When Charlie Brown stopped getting fooled into running to kick Lucy's football, Peanuts was dead.
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pre-rework Uther was a v bad duelist
If you're unfamiliar, Yuumi is like a more powerful version of Aba hat, but who needs to be nearby (no global or splitpush presence whatsoever) to hat someone and is completely vulnerable if the person she's hatting gets killed.
And yeah he just boosts tf out of a dive hero's impact, almost exclusively by adding dps.
I'd think bw's global heal and follow up cc / dps is actually stronger than an aba hat.
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wra
Long live Hots!
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wra
Even the third party HotS life support systems are failing now.
Prob that we're getting 3 new heroes and a patch to add mmr and rankings to aram.
Yeah, that must be it
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Good thing it's a sedan, because you're going to have to share it with 4 other people.
Mostly his AA build, which breaks almost any hero with cdr tied to auto attacks. It's too much of an exponential force multiplier.
Have I mentioned how much I hate hate HATE Samuro? He's like a top skill ceiling Zeratul with even less counterplay.
Shoot his illusion? You lose.
Shoot the real one? He swaps and now you're shooting an illusion. You lose.
Try shooting all of them so he has no high health one to swap to? You were shooting every illusion. You lose.
Actually manage to kill all illusions and are positioned to finish off the real one? He still has at least 2 more escapes: a blink, a cloak, a heal, AND a move speed boost.
Every other stealth hero can be directly countered. Most are in trouble if you manage to find and uncloak (the real) them. Even a master Zeratul can be cc'd with alert timing when he jumps someone.
There's just no "correct" answer to him other than hoping he slips up with illusions or mistakes. Your only other option is to press forward and hope you can route the rest of his team while trying to ignore him. He's not the most impactful and damaging, but it's pointless trying to address him. He's horrible to play against even if you win. It doesn't feel like you're pitting skills against someone, just throwing up your hands and hope your team wins despite him.
I guess the real 'balance' is that he's a squishy solo laner with no healing and weak waveclear until you force his 10.
So the counter to sammy is proper drafting? Sux for QM. ^^
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Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
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I'll be there anyway.
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What Richard said about moba fans being interested in big name players, and how HotS is really counter-intuitively designed to accommodate that, is especially true. I remember saying years ago that the HotS scene was a joke. Not because the players were bad (although, you guys remember Heroes of the Dorm? That shit was painful to watch most of the time), but because it's fucking boring --
You basically cannot carry. Any time a hero is capable of hard carrying (let's say Genji) Blizzard balances them out of reach for 99% of the community.
It's very hard to rally behind someone during a match because they're just soaking out of their minds guys holy shit.
Blizzard has no fucking idea what they're doing anymore, and it's been that way for a very long time now.
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Game is sunset, which it basically already was but in just confirming it basically
Like, it's not the first time this has come up, but a lot of the proposed "improvements" needed to make the game "successful" are just things I wouldn't want. There's a good chance a successful HotS is something I wouldn't have really played, akin to the existing successful MOBAs. I'm glad we had HotS.
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Long live HotS.
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
You can say whatever you want, people are also fine to disagree with you and it doesn't automatically make them immature and wrong.
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Cuz if not... nothing really changes for me.
I'll even still be waiting for 'that patch"
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this is a very funny way of not answering Dibby's question while simultaneously answering Dibby's question
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But it's also a game where I personally disagreed with nearly every design decision they made along the way. This is only personal opinion, but each major balance revision -- like when they drastically reduced TTK to more closely match their competitors -- I felt like each of those decisions made the game worse and made the game less distinct. Less HotS-y.
From the very beginning, Blizzard was trend chasing and League chasing. Their goal was to hit player numbers that would compete with League and DotA2. And since they never hit those numbers, the game was always a failure in their eyes, even before they killed it.
They set out originally to make a game that took a shorter amount of time to play, was more accessible to the masses, and more objective based. They succeeded initially in that regard. And during the early beta stages and pre-release times was the best the game ever was. And each major patch moved the game further away from their initial vision (and further away from the things that attracted me to the game in the first place.)
Being totally different from League didn't get them the big player numbers they were hoping for so they kept moving the game closer and closer to League, and each step made it worse. In my opinion.
The best the game ever was was before their big HotS 2.0 release when they added all the free-to-play shit and made it into a mobile game. All those sprays and emotes and shit they added? That was unnecessary and just added bloat. I understand that they were trying to monetize and squeeze more money. But it also made the game less good. And along with those out-of-match bloaty system changes, they also rebalanced combat and made it less good.
For me, personally, HotS died a long time ago. It died when they stopped trying to be unique and started trying to more closely match their competitors so that they could carve a bigger piece of the pie.
To this day, HotS is the only game I have ever followed or cared about the eSports scene. I was invested in the teams, the rivalries, the players, and all of that. It was a magical time, and I miss those early days dearly.
RIP Heroes of the Storm.
I feel like Dibby was being quite rude about it, and it seems like you are too. Am I misinterpreting this or are y'all just being mean for no reason?
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the root of this conversation (in my estimation) comes from seeing "this game is dead" as a personal attack because one enjoys the game, and then arguing against it as a result
this is probably more relevant to the conversations had back when the standby development phase was announced, but getting defensive over someone who used to enjoy the game lamenting and coming to terms with the dev all but abandoning it is kinda weird, imo. what's to gain from having that conversation?
this is my interpretation of why dibby asked if people would give up on the 'debate' now that it's actually, fully confirmed to be the case
I hope this explanation made sense
Rich is widely regarded as the most highly-skilled HotS player in the world, and yet if you put him in front of anyone watching his pro games it is practically impossible for the viewer to identify that fact in the absence of commentary telling you otherwise (instead of the game just evidently showing you). This is not the case in pretty much any other game or sport. Even football, widely regarded as the most coordinated and complicated sport to execute from a team perspective, regularly allows for players to showcase individual skill.
Can anyone think of any individual plays which they recall that turned the course of a game? The biggest play I remember that showcased someone's skill was POILK pulling off that Repulsion Li Ming combo, and even that was at the end of a game that was pretty much already won, so it didn't actually matter in the grand scheme of things.
I've never saw "this game is dead" as a personal attack. I see what Dibby said there as a personal attack, though!
The issue as I see it is that some people liked to feel like they were smarter or something by declaring the game as being "dead". Maybe it just gave them some relief from the lack of updates or something, I dunno. The idea that responding to "the game is dead" with "I don't think it is because people still play it and there's an active community and the servers are still up and such" as defending it like it's a personal attack is weird! Why would you think that?
The idea that I can't just disagree with you without you thinking it has to be because I took it personally is weird! It seems immature and belittling to your fellow threadgoers. "Obviously they are disagreeing because they just took it personally. There's no logical reason I could be wrong or they could think differently than me!"
Again though, Dibby comin' in and asking if anyone is going to "get their knickers in a twist" again, like that's obviously what happens every other time he tries to shed some light on us ignorant people, is rude and insulting, I think. Saying you think the game is dead isn't.
I'd love if you could point out where people took "I think HotS is dead" personally.
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Well, now it's not incredibly rare, you fucking bell-ends.
There have been plenty of games that ended off of a falstad flanking and hitting a big lvl 20 gust that put the whole team into a wall - and visually it's pretty easy to tell that setup is what is winning the game - everyone else just has to put their damage in the same spot.
For years Diablo just got to delete ppl out of position - no team required, but the skill there is hard to recognize maybe since it's a lot of micro positioning and just catching that second when another hero steps into a wall angle.
The HGC years of this game were rough though because pro games the winning team often sat a full talent advantage up the entire game; though I have no memory of when all the various xp changes actually happened
End of Story (game).
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wra
It was legitimately a joke because we've had the age old "Is HotS a dead game" debate for ages and ages and ages. This thread has argued back and forth on that forever so now that we have an official word and official closure on the matter, it seemed fine to make a fun little poke at it.
There was no personal attack, I wasn't being rude or insulting, and I'm honestly not sure why you're taking it so personally and acting as if I've done some sort of egregious heinous crime here.
Not once did I ever make mention that anyone here was "ignorant" nor "immature and wrong", I would appreciate you not putting words in my mouth there.
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
I'm gonna assume we're just not understanding each other and not that you're intentionally being dishonest. It doesn't matter anyways, so I'm not planning on continuing. Agree to disagree or whatever.
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Fan basically saying it like it is. I gave up on new content a while ago, so I'm not heartbroken about anything new getting added. Occasional balance changes would be nice, but I sort of feel that's not a thing that's gonna happen much, or at all.
But a lack of changes isn't necessarily a bad thing. StarCraft: Brood War evolved a lot for years after the game was in an unchanged state. Granted that had more to do with map pool rotations from the eSports scene, but there's no reason HotS can't have it's own fan-grown meta shift.
Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
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Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
Switch ID: MNC Dover SW-1154-3107-1051
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When Charlie Brown stopped getting fooled into running to kick Lucy's football, Peanuts was dead.
Being dead now means no release restrictions. Now we are truly free!!!!
The janitor has been waiting patiently, like the old guard of yore.
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