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[nba] franken-warriors rise as curse of the brook settles over lakers

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  • TelMarineTelMarine Registered User regular
    TheBigEasy wrote: »
    I don't think we really need to discuss if he is worth the max.

    But is there a team out there, that is willing to pay that? Without being able to name that team - I would say yes, there is. Probably won't be the Warriors though. If getting that max contract is his sole goal - he will get it. Although, he still has another year on his contract with a player option in 23/24. So he'd either have to get a max extension from the Warriors (which I think is unlikely - although, the owners are billionaires, they can afford it) or opt out and get a max contract elsewhere. So at that point he is another year older and who knows what happens next season.

    But if he was an unrestricted free agents right now - no doubt there would be team that would throw the max at him. With the way contract values have exploded the last few years? Come on...

    There may be another team that would offer him the max, but would it be a contending team? See what I mentioned earlier about Draymond's will to compete...if it's some scrub team, they are definitely not going to be getting full power Draymond if he accepts. He already admitted he couldn't get up for games in the 2019-2020 season knowing the Warriors wouldn't compete for a championship, let alone getting to the playoffs. I bet other teams are cognizant of this too. They must be thinking, "We could offer Draymond the max, but if we are not going to be contending, are we going to get Draymond's best effort?". From Draymond's own mouth, the answer would be no.

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    Inquisitor77
  • R-demR-dem Registered User regular
    Dray is very good at basketball
    He is bad at not being a jerk
    He is certainly incorrect in his hints that he could hang with the 98 Bulls and Jazz
    Rodman and Malone would have knocked him right out the game at his first Day dirty play
    That said he is a very good player who will likely get close to but not quite max

    FiatilTicaldfjam
  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    edited July 28
    Dray would fit in just fine with Rodman and Stockton

    He’s also specifically saying the 2017 Dubs roll the Bulls/Jazz if they use 1998 style vs 2017 rules/style, which isn’t a helpful comparison, and that’s why you shouldn’t compare the teams

    Captain Inertia on
    PreacherLeeksburboMagellRingomarajiA Kobold's Kobold
  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    R-dem wrote: »
    Dray is very good at basketball
    He is bad at not being a jerk
    He is certainly incorrect in his hints that he could hang with the 98 Bulls and Jazz
    Rodman and Malone would have knocked him right out the game at his first Day dirty play
    That said he is a very good player who will likely get close to but not quite max

    If Draymond were allowed to engage in the same level of physicality as the players of that era, he would be fine. This type of era-comparison puts the context before the player.

    Players weren't magically "tougher" or "stronger" because they played in more physical eras. They were just allowed to get away with more, and behaved accordingly. Similarly, if Larry Bird played in the current era I have no doubt he'd be near the top of the 3-point leaderboard.

    MagellRingo
  • FiatilFiatil Registered User regular
    edited July 28
    I think the Draymond toughness thing has to do with the cost of being an instigator in those eras vs. now.

    In the 80s and 90s, there was a cost -- you're going to get hard fouled in ways that would result in an immediate ejection today, that would have just been a play on in those eras.

    In the modern era, it's basically a free action. No one's going to swing at you, they're very rarely going to foul you hard in retaliation, and if they do they just get ejected and you "win".

    I can't say how he would have fared because he just doesn't face that stuff in today's NBA. That's the contention though -- he's only able to act the way he does on the court today because he faces no consequences and he would in earlier eras.

    Fiatil on
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  • dlinfinitidlinfiniti Registered User regular
    his point was that the warriors would pick and roll those era teams to death
    also the 88 pistons would be so terrified they wouldn't come out of the locker room

    AAAAA!!! PLAAAYGUUU!!!!
    Captain Inertia
  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    Fiatil wrote: »
    I think the Draymond toughness thing has to do with the cost of being an instigator in those eras vs. now.

    In the 80s and 90s, there was a cost -- you're going to get hard fouled in ways that would result in an immediate ejection today, that would have just been a play on in those eras.

    In the modern era, it's basically a free action. No one's going to swing at you, they're very rarely going to foul you hard in retaliation, and if they do they just get ejected and you "win".

    I can't say how he would have fared because he just doesn't face that stuff in today's NBA. That's the contention though -- he's only able to act the way he does on the court today because he faces no consequences and he would in earlier eras.

    John Stockton was the dirtiest player in nba history

    jkylefulton
  • burboburbo Registered User regular
    The concept of the foul that's so hard a player would be crying on the ground and the police are brought in but was a no call back in the day just never tracks for me. What I saw in those times was a lot of grabbing that wasn't called. If a guy was clocked, it was still a foul. If a guy was swiped on the arm, it was still a foul. If a superstar player fell on the ground after a drive attempt with marginal contact, it was still a foul. I feel like we remember the small handful of highlights where someone gets clotheslined (and a foul is called) and acts like that was every play, every game.

    Certainly, the suspensions are greater now. And players do spend a lot of time rolling on the ground pretending to be injured, where I think back in the day they would have pretended to be tough.

    PreachermarajiMagell
  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    Guys now are also bigger and faster. So like a Bill Lambeer trying to goon it up would find himself flat on his ass instead

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

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    Captain Inertia
  • ButtersButters A glass of some milks Registered User regular
    Big money on guaranteed contracts prevents goons more than anything.

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  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    edited July 28
    I’d love to see the “enforcers” try anything with Steven Adams. They could also try vs Zion but they would just bounce off, probably with a dent somewhere on their persons.

    The play was more physical in the past, but the guys today are better physical specimens cause of continued growth of our species and huge advances in nutrition and athletic performance sciences

    The main difference in eras is roster construction (driven by rules, both of the game and bargaining agreements) and relative popularity in the US and abroad creating a bigger funnel of players to be filtered down into about the same number of teams

    Captain Inertia on
    PreacherTicaldfjam
  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    Actually fuck it, my last point is probably the winner- rosters today are pulling from a worldwide talent pool that basically guarantees a much higher floor of skill

    Preacher
  • R-demR-dem Registered User regular
    Going back and re-reading Draymond's text more thoroughly, I change my position. I thought he was doing the whole "If we could jump back and play '90s ball against those teams we'd smoke them", which is what I was disagreeing with. If he's saying that his team playing modern ball against them playing '90s ball would smoke them, well, yeah, absolutely. I didn't read him accurately there.

    I will 100% stand by '90s dirty ball being tougher than modern dirty ball though. Y'all whippersnappers just don't know.

    Captain Inertia
  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    edited July 29
    My favorite part of Dray’s tweet about this is KDs response that Kerr would put himself in with the 2017 Dubs and call a bunch of screen action to free him to rain 3s on his own Bulls team

    Captain Inertia on
    RingomarajiTelMarine
  • TelMarineTelMarine Registered User regular
    Compilation of Curry shots that didn't count. This man is ridiculous, lol

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    Captain InertiaRingo
  • y2jake215y2jake215 certified Flat Birther theorist the Last Good Boy onlineRegistered User regular
    C8Ft8GE.jpg
    maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
  • dlinfinitidlinfiniti Registered User regular
    oh nooooo

    AAAAA!!! PLAAAYGUUU!!!!
    TicaldfjammarajitzeentchlingJebus314
  • dlinfinitidlinfiniti Registered User regular
    11 titles as a player and two more as a coach
    Insanity

    AAAAA!!! PLAAAYGUUU!!!!
    TicaldfjamjkylefultonBlackDragon480RingomarajitzeentchlingA Kobold's KoboldJebus314
  • KelorKelor Registered User regular
    TelMarine wrote: »
    Compilation of Curry shots that didn't count. This man is ridiculous, lol


    I don’t recall which season, I think 15/16, he had a higher shooting percentage from the back half of the court than the three point line, and that included all the heaves made when a quarter was ending.

  • dlinfinitidlinfiniti Registered User regular
    so KD has finally come out and put it plainly, its him or Steve Nash and Sean Marks (GM)
    what a joke, and interestingly, at least initially, ownership seems to be backing the staff

    AAAAA!!! PLAAAYGUUU!!!!
    FiatilTicaldfjam
  • FiatilFiatil Registered User regular
    "I need you to fire the coach and GM for me to stay"
    "The GM who signed DeAndre Jordan to a huge contract no one thought he deserved because he's your friend and you and Kyrie pressured him into it?"
    "Yes."
    "The one who did everything you asked and traded our entire future away to get James Harden to join you because you wanted to win now?"
    "Yes."
    "And the coach who you both wanted after you got the old coach fired for not wanting to start DeAndre Jordan over Jarrett Allen?
    "Yes"
    "Awesome sure let's do it."

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  • ButtersButters A glass of some milks Registered User regular
    Fiatil wrote: »
    "I need you to fire the coach and GM for me to stay"
    "The GM who signed DeAndre Jordan to a huge contract no one thought he deserved because he's your friend and you and Kyrie pressured him into it?"
    "Yes."
    "The one who did everything you asked and traded our entire future away to get James Harden to join you because you wanted to win now?"
    "Yes."
    "And the coach who you both wanted after you got the old coach fired for not wanting to start DeAndre Jordan over Jarrett Allen?
    "Yes"
    "Awesome sure let's do it."

    "And you still want to be traded?"

    "Correct"

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  • KelorKelor Registered User regular
    The next player/team owner negotiations are going to get wild.

    FiatilTicaldfjamTrajan45
  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    They're all big boys and girls. No one was holding a gun to their head. If they didn't think it was worth it they wouldn't have done it. I'm pretty sure there are at least a half-dozen organizations out there who wouldn't have acquiesced to KD's demands.

    I've never been a big fan of negotiating positions that start with, "Please protect us from ourselves!" See : salary caps.

    Ticaldfjam
  • FiatilFiatil Registered User regular
    edited August 9
    They're all big boys and girls. No one was holding a gun to their head. If they didn't think it was worth it they wouldn't have done it. I'm pretty sure there are at least a half-dozen organizations out there who wouldn't have acquiesced to KD's demands.

    I've never been a big fan of negotiating positions that start with, "Please protect us from ourselves!" See : salary caps.

    The point is his hypocrisy.

    His hand picked team where he got to team up with his (very toxic) buddy and had the organization essentially kill its old culture in order bend to his every whim is now finally starting to bristle and his response is to immediately request a trade with 4 years left on his contract, and then demand the people who did what he wanted all be fired. He and Kyrie chose the Nets because they were willing to cater to their whims.

    "Someone needs to be held responsible for my actions!"
    "You?"
    "No everyone that enabled me!"

    Add in the thing where he left OKC to play "team basketball" and get a ring, then left the Warriors because they played too much team basketball and wouldn't let him iso enough.....yeah the guy is slightly fickle and maybe a little hypocritical.

    I agree that the Nets shot themselves in the foot with this one, but they did so by doing what Kyrie and KD wanted. The Nets definitely aren't victims here! But KD is still being insane. Given that KD is requesting a trade immediately after his new 4 year contract sticks in...it seems like he was going to demand a trade immediately once they held him or Kyrie accountable. That's actually exactly what happened!

    Fiatil on
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    TicaldfjammarajiDoctor Detroit
  • MagellMagell Detroit Machine Guns Fort MyersRegistered User regular
    Fiatil wrote: »
    They're all big boys and girls. No one was holding a gun to their head. If they didn't think it was worth it they wouldn't have done it. I'm pretty sure there are at least a half-dozen organizations out there who wouldn't have acquiesced to KD's demands.

    I've never been a big fan of negotiating positions that start with, "Please protect us from ourselves!" See : salary caps.

    The point is his hypocrisy.

    His hand picked team where he got to team up with his (very toxic) buddy and had the organization essentially kill its old culture in order bend to his every whim is now finally starting to bristle and his response is to immediately request a trade with 4 years left on his contract, and then demand the people who did what he wanted all be fired. He and Kyrie chose the Nets because they were willing to cater to their whims.

    "Someone needs to be held responsible for my actions!"
    "You?"
    "No everyone that enabled me!"

    Add in the thing where he left OKC to play "team basketball" and get a ring, then left the Warriors because they played too much team basketball and wouldn't let him iso enough.....yeah the guy is slightly fickle and maybe a little hypocritical.

    I agree that the Nets shot themselves in the foot with this one, but they did so by doing what Kyrie and KD wanted. Given that KD is requesting a trade immediately after his new 4 year contract sticks in...it seems like he was going to demand a trade immediately once they held him or Kyrie accountable. That's actually exactly what happened!

    But both of those guys are pretty open about being pretty fickle and its not like its a surprise. I can see going all in for Durant he is that good, but Kyrie has always been unreliable as a star player and they shouldn't have gone all in on him as well.

  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    Yeah I'm not saying KD isn't being a dick. Or that Kyrie isn't a goddamn moron.

    But ownership and management knew what they were getting. Nothing that happened thus far was a surprise to anyone. Hell, in this thread alone a bunch of us were conjecturing that the trio would blow up just based on personality alone (e.g., "Kyrie will get all up in his feelings because Harden will control the ball and then there will be drama"). COVID threw a wrench into everything in terms of how those personalities eventually manifested themselves into conflict, but the actual implosion was always a pretty good bet going in.

    MagellFiatilmarajiRingoDoctor Detroit
  • FiatilFiatil Registered User regular
    Oh yeah totally. It was always an incredibly volatile mix, and this was always on the table.

    I for one am thrilled.

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  • Knight_Knight_ Dead Dead Dead Registered User regular
    owners are still going to light the players on fire because of this shit

    protect them from themselves it might be, but we have some few systems like that in the nba already, and i don't expect it to get less after this utter fiasco

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    TicaldfjamFiatil
  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    It's really just Simmons and Kyrie who have fucked it up for everyone. KD is kind of a troll but he went out and played when he could. And he can make all the requests in the world but so far he hasn't quit on anyone. The other two literally did everything in their power to just sit out for "reasons".

  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    Oh wait Simmons left the Nets group chat in response to being asked to play in Game 4

    TicaldfjamRingoMarathon
  • FiatilFiatil Registered User regular
    It's really just Simmons and Kyrie who have fucked it up for everyone. KD is kind of a troll but he went out and played when he could. And he can make all the requests in the world but so far he hasn't quit on anyone. The other two literally did everything in their power to just sit out for "reasons".

    He's currently threatening to quit on everyone. Here's a tweet that definitely wasn't written by Kevin Durant (I'm surprised it didn't talk about how handsome and cool he is):



    If you look at just players who have been on the Nets in the last year you have 4 scenarios that are kind of insane and are going to almost certainly lead to a lockout:
    • Ben Simmons -- receives mild criticism from his teammate and coach following one of the worst playoff performances in living memory. Demands a trade with 4 years left on his deal, fakes an injury to get out of training camp, then once team doctors ask to confirm his injury suddenly starts complaining about mental health issues that prevent him from playing. Is currently suing the 76ers to be paid for all of the games he refused to play in.
    • James Harden -- demands a trade to Brooklyn, shows up to training camp out of shape and clearly hostile towards the team. Gets traded, demands another trade the following year despite being traded to his preferred destination in trade #1. His case is probably most sympathetic from a fan perspective because he had to deal with Kyrie, but just like the Nets, he should have known what he was getting himself into.
    • Kyrie Irving -- lol. Goes to his preferred destination in Free Agency. In year 1, his running mate is out, so he publically calls out all of his teammates despite him missing tons of time throughout the season and fueds with his coach. Year 2, leaves the team for "personal reasons" during the height of the COVID pandemic and is seen partying maskless in a club for his sister's birthday. Year 3, complete anti-vax insanity where he misses the majority of the season, has quotes where he complains about the team not having enough time to gel as a reason for its struggles, drives Harden to request a trade due to the climate of insanity he has fostered. Demands a trade after not receiving a supermax extension for his prior efforts in Brooklyn.
    • Kevin Durant -- the "pure hooper no drama baller who just loves the game of basketball". Signs with his preferred team in FA, fulfilling a dream to pair up with his good buddies Kyrie and Deandre Jordan. Along with Kyrie, essentially dictates team culture and roster moves. Year 1, injured and plays no games. It's okay, the team knew, he's great at basketball, and they're building a solid relationship with him because it's totally worth it for the heights that he will bring them to. Year 2, awesome. Plays great in the playoffs, lose to the eventual champions with Kyrie and Harden injured. Year 3, still good, things start to go off the rails. Injures, no big deal, but increasingly apparent his pure hooper mentality isn't enough for him to tell his friend that "hey man you have to play basketball for us to be good at it". Sides with Kyrie over Harden, further torching Nets culture and alienating everyone not named Kyrie on the team. End of year 3, requests a trade essentially as soon as his 4 year contract extension begins.

    The "pro player/pro owner" thing is a false binary. You're starting to see that tide turn, and I'm glad more people are coming to understand this as well.

    The owners are soulless billionaires. I'm not on their side. As a fan who wants to watch competitive basketball, you can't allow superstar players to have unlimited movement with no consequences the moment they feel the slightest bit offended at something the organization does. That's clearly bad for competition. The supermax was supposed to be a way for teams to lock up "their guys" in a mutually beneficial way -- you stay here long term and help us, and in exchange you get more money than you could get in free agency. It's being used in the inverse -- players have shown a willingness to sign it, and then request a trade within 1-2 years. The franchise is left extra helpless as they have all of their money tied up in that player, and the player has so much power they typically always get the trade they want. It's a bad system for fans, and small market owners in particular will 100% raise hell over it in the next CBA negotiaton.

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  • ButtersButters A glass of some milks Registered User regular
    Yeah I don't want to defend the billionaires either, but I think "they all should have known what they were getting into" is a bit of a stretch. The Nets have seen more players quit on them the last 12 months than I have seen maybe ever. Durant demanding a coaching and front office overhaul as well as a trade is fucking insane. He made this bed and he deserves to sleep in it.

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  • CarpyCarpy Registered User regular
    Not disagreeing with the general thrust of your argument but Simmons was actually hurt and got back surgery this off-season.

  • burboburbo Registered User regular
    You forgot to mention that Durant was also pretty mediocre in getting swept by the Cs last year!

    Ive said it in this thread before, but ill say it again. Acting like pro sports is a typical labor dispute with athletes representing labor is very much misplaced solidarity. They are already a class who is exploiting the excess value created by other workers to get rich. Yes, they are workers on some level, but Its the equivalent of the C suite execs at Amazon going on strike and us feeling like we must support them due to solidarity. The actual exploited labor in pro sports are going to be people more like arena workers, front office staff, lower level people on the broadcast, people assembling televisions, and so on and so on.

    Doctor DetroitFiatilButters
  • FiatilFiatil Registered User regular
    edited August 10
    Carpy wrote: »
    Not disagreeing with the general thrust of your argument but Simmons was actually hurt and got back surgery this off-season.

    His injury stuff is really weird, and I'll admit that the timeline is confusing.

    The reports when he was with the 76ers were that he refused to submit to team doctors verifying the injury. Very shortly after that, he switched to "mental health issues" and we didn't really hear about the back again. He refused to report to training camp (not really a back injury thing), then refused to let 76ers doctors help him with the back or mental health issues once he reported.

    He's currently suing the 76ers, and the reporting I've seen is that it's based on his mental health argument. When he was traded to the Nets, he focused on his mental health issues:
    "I feel physically pretty good,” Simmons told reporters in his introductory press conference. “Mentally, I’m getting there, so it’s an ongoing thing to stay on top of that. But I think I’m heading in the right direction.”

    That was all of the reporting at the time as well. Ben is working through mental health issues and will eventually rejoin the team. Then, on the eve of his presumed start against Boston in the playoffs, he has back issues (~10 months after he reported them to the 76ers, refused to verify them, then switched his argument for not playing to mental health issues). He did ultimately get surgery for back issues.

    It seems like a mix of made up/questionable and legitimate, I guess. It will ultimately be at least a bit more clear once his case is settled. At various points he pointed to mental health issues being the reason that he couldn't play in Philly, though. That was the crux of "I need to be traded". You don't need to be traded for back issues -- you don't sit out, and then report and completely half-ass it in training camp drills due to back issues either. There were periods in Brooklyn where he was running around dunking and asking reporters to record him doing it. But he is also having surgery for back issues, just 10 months after the 76ers stuff. The general theories have been that the back issues are not the "76ers back issues", but it's murky as hell and I can't confirm it anywhere. There really aren't any primary sources describing his grievance with the 76ers as written, presumably because it's internal CBA stuff that's going through arbitration. But every article I can find ties his grievance to only the mental health issues:
    The 76ers claim Simmons breached his contract under the NBA’s collective bargaining agreement and that they had the right to pull that money back. Simmons is claiming that, because of his mental health struggles, he couldn’t reasonably play basketball for them.

    Fiatil on
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  • FiatilFiatil Registered User regular
    edited August 10
    burbo wrote: »
    You forgot to mention that Durant was also pretty mediocre in getting swept by the Cs last year!

    Ive said it in this thread before, but ill say it again. Acting like pro sports is a typical labor dispute with athletes representing labor is very much misplaced solidarity. They are already a class who is exploiting the excess value created by other workers to get rich. Yes, they are workers on some level, but Its the equivalent of the C suite execs at Amazon going on strike and us feeling like we must support them due to solidarity. The actual exploited labor in pro sports are going to be people more like arena workers, front office staff, lower level people on the broadcast, people assembling televisions, and so on and so on.

    Yeah exactly. Megafans often describe them as the blue collar working class for sympathy when they're...not really that anymore and haven't been in decades.

    Even more: the overwhelming majority of anti-competitive BS being pulled is from players on max and supermax contracts. It's the 1% of the union driving all of this mess. Basically everyone not making the max just acts normal and plays basketball. It's sort of the opposite of the NFL union; the NFL leadership is typically not a big name guy making huge money. The NBA is smaller, and their high earners have outsized power. The union leaders are often supermax guys (Chris Paul, now not quite that with McCollum), and it's obvious that the max contract guys have huge influence in all of the negotiations.

    Fiatil on
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  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    This is turning into some weird kind of class thing.

    At the end of the day, players can make any and all demands they want. If ownership/management don't want to do it, and it's not in the signed contract, then they don't have to. And if the player doesn't do their job then ownership/management have means available to them to try to remedy the situation via the bargaining agreement.

    I can ask my employer to change my manager. They don't have to do it because it's not in my contract, but it's in their interests to do so if I am a valuable employee and it makes me happy. If I decide to use this as leverage to get out of doing my job, and actively start not working in protest, then my employer can fire me or bring me to court.

    This really doesn't seem all that different except the numbers and demands are larger.

    This is why I think KD is fine but Simmons is an asshole. KD never actually stopped playing, and I seriously doubt he will do that, public posturing to the contrary. If he does, then the Nets can bring it up in a formal action with proof. Simmons, on the other hand, pretty clearly abused the system, and I think the timeline on his back surgery actually makes that even more clear because his back issues were never serious until he reached the point where his back was against the wall (see what I did there?).

    Then all of the sudden he starts getting more opinions on what is going on there and finds out that he needs surgery. It indicates to me that he never meaningfully investigated the issue to begin with until he was scrambling to find another reason not to play, at which point an underlying issue that should've been discovered months ago became apparent. We're talking about a multi-millionaire whose physical fitness is his most important resource. There's absolutely no reason he couldn't have gone to specialists the whole time, instead of waiting until the last minute. At least the Kawhi saga had him going to a bunch of different doctors and then having dueling diagnoses.

    Captain Inertia
  • FiatilFiatil Registered User regular
    This is turning into some weird kind of class thing.

    At the end of the day, players can make any and all demands they want. If ownership/management don't want to do it, and it's not in the signed contract, then they don't have to. And if the player doesn't do their job then ownership/management have means available to them to try to remedy the situation via the bargaining agreement.

    I can ask my employer to change my manager. They don't have to do it because it's not in my contract, but it's in their interests to do so if I am a valuable employee and it makes me happy. If I decide to use this as leverage to get out of doing my job, and actively start not working in protest, then my employer can fire me or bring me to court.

    This really doesn't seem all that different except the numbers and demands are larger.

    This is why I think KD is fine but Simmons is an asshole. KD never actually stopped playing, and I seriously doubt he will do that, public posturing to the contrary. If he does, then the Nets can bring it up in a formal action with proof. Simmons, on the other hand, pretty clearly abused the system, and I think the timeline on his back surgery actually makes that even more clear because his back issues were never serious until he reached the point where his back was against the wall (see what I did there?).

    Then all of the sudden he starts getting more opinions on what is going on there and finds out that he needs surgery. It indicates to me that he never meaningfully investigated the issue to begin with until he was scrambling to find another reason not to play, at which point an underlying issue that should've been discovered months ago became apparent. We're talking about a multi-millionaire whose physical fitness is his most important resource. There's absolutely no reason he couldn't have gone to specialists the whole time, instead of waiting until the last minute. At least the Kawhi saga had him going to a bunch of different doctors and then having dueling diagnoses.

    I wouldn't say it's turning into a weird class thing -- that's a parallel conversation. We're just saying that it's not some "worker solidarity" thing where fans should have class consciousness with the players and support them at all costs in the same way as it is with a "normal labor union". There's a material difference between a teamsters union fighting management for health and childcare, and an NBA player feeling like they should be able to void their contract whenever they want for any reason. I'm good with setting all of that aside, as it's an aside. Ultimately neither side is the same as me -- it's millionaires vs. billionaires. The entire point is that we're a 3rd party -- not NBA player, not owner; fans with our own interests.

    So your bolded is where the analogy doesn't work completely, because of the CBA. NBA teams can't just fire you without cause, or fine you without cause.

    Players have figured this out. You just show up, and act like an asshole. You don't technically break any rules in the CBA, you show up to practice, but you just act like a complete jerk to everyone, jack up 50 shots in practice, be mean to your teammates and never pass to them. Congrats, you still get paid your entire salary and the team now has a product on the court that is complete garbage. You get flamed on twitter, they have all of their season ticket holders cancel and lose their sponsors, and fans are pissed off because their favorite team is a joke. You go against the spirit of the CBA but not the letter, you win, everyone else loses.

    steam_sig.png
    burbo
  • MagellMagell Detroit Machine Guns Fort MyersRegistered User regular
    Fiatil wrote: »
    This is turning into some weird kind of class thing.

    At the end of the day, players can make any and all demands they want. If ownership/management don't want to do it, and it's not in the signed contract, then they don't have to. And if the player doesn't do their job then ownership/management have means available to them to try to remedy the situation via the bargaining agreement.

    I can ask my employer to change my manager. They don't have to do it because it's not in my contract, but it's in their interests to do so if I am a valuable employee and it makes me happy. If I decide to use this as leverage to get out of doing my job, and actively start not working in protest, then my employer can fire me or bring me to court.

    This really doesn't seem all that different except the numbers and demands are larger.

    This is why I think KD is fine but Simmons is an asshole. KD never actually stopped playing, and I seriously doubt he will do that, public posturing to the contrary. If he does, then the Nets can bring it up in a formal action with proof. Simmons, on the other hand, pretty clearly abused the system, and I think the timeline on his back surgery actually makes that even more clear because his back issues were never serious until he reached the point where his back was against the wall (see what I did there?).

    Then all of the sudden he starts getting more opinions on what is going on there and finds out that he needs surgery. It indicates to me that he never meaningfully investigated the issue to begin with until he was scrambling to find another reason not to play, at which point an underlying issue that should've been discovered months ago became apparent. We're talking about a multi-millionaire whose physical fitness is his most important resource. There's absolutely no reason he couldn't have gone to specialists the whole time, instead of waiting until the last minute. At least the Kawhi saga had him going to a bunch of different doctors and then having dueling diagnoses.

    I wouldn't say it's turning into a weird class thing -- that's a parallel conversation. We're just saying that it's not some "worker solidarity" thing where fans should have class consciousness with the players and support them at all costs in the same way as it is with a "normal labor union". There's a material difference between a teamsters union fighting management for health and childcare, and an NBA player feeling like they should be able to void their contract whenever they want for any reason. I'm good with setting all of that aside, as it's an aside. Ultimately neither side is the same as me -- it's millionaires vs. billionaires. The entire point is that we're a 3rd party -- not NBA player, not owner; fans with our own interests.

    So your bolded is where the analogy doesn't work completely, because of the CBA. NBA teams can't just fire you without cause, or fine you without cause.

    Players have figured this out. You just show up, and act like an asshole. You don't technically break any rules in the CBA, you show up to practice, but you just act like a complete jerk to everyone, jack up 50 shots in practice, be mean to your teammates and never pass to them. Congrats, you still get paid your entire salary and the team now has a product on the court that is complete garbage. You get flamed on twitter, they have all of their season ticket holders cancel and lose their sponsors, and fans are pissed off because their favorite team is a joke. You go against the spirit of the CBA but not the letter, you win, everyone else loses.

    I'm going to side with the players over the owners because I don't give a shit about them and I want to watch the players play.

    Oh, you hired three players who are known to have diva behavior and it didn't work out and now everything is broken? Don't care just want to watch basketball.

    Captain Inertiajkylefulton
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