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The Failing [Russian Invasion of Ukraine]

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  • TraceTrace Registered User regular
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  • caligynefobcaligynefob Registered User regular
    Golden Yak wrote: »
    Jesus, just revolt already.

    This is something I’ve been considering since the exodus of people trying to leave Russia. Instead of leaving, protest and revolt against the regime and try to enact some meaningful change. I know it comes with considerable risk, but at this point it is almost a moral obligation to the world and fellow citizens.

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  • V1mV1m Registered User regular
    It's not as flashy as HIMARS, but that troop training support is at least as important to Ukraine's survival. Those properly trained and equipped troops with be worth 10 or 20 times their number of untrained, barely equipped conscripts (and will consequently be 10 or 20 times more effective per unit effort of transport and supply logistics employed).

    Training them properly (and feeding them meanwhile) in a place where they're completely safe from everyone but themselves has relieved Ukraine of a huge burden. And the morale of those troops, knowing that they're actually trained, actually have some gear, actually have a chance of surviving this shitstorm, will be infinitely higher.

    Not to mention the morale of their families.

    This is surely a non-trivial factor in Ukraine's lack of recruitment issues. People are happy to join up because they're confident that they'll be valuable and valued.

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  • AldoAldo Registered User regular
    Golden Yak wrote: »
    Jesus, just revolt already.

    This is something I’ve been considering since the exodus of people trying to leave Russia. Instead of leaving, protest and revolt against the regime and try to enact some meaningful change. I know it comes with considerable risk, but at this point it is almost a moral obligation to the world and fellow citizens.

    My thinking is heavily informed by the John Green's video linked below. He's more eloquent than I'll ever be, so give that a watch if you're done reading poasts by a pygmy hippo.

    The idea that you 'just revolt' is never true, you need to do a lot of stuff and generally need some kind of leader or figurehead. Putin &co have eradicated any form of opposition from the large population centers, either just killing them or sending them to Siberia. There's no charismatic leadership to rally behind. For the colonized areas of the Russian Federation they have been under the boot of Moscow for over a century, their local identity has been erased by one leader after the other. Royals, communists, kleptocrats all treated them the same.

    And you gotta realize that the bad times don't stop after a revolution. It is followed by a period (years of it, sometimes!) of chaos and danger. With no guarantee that you're gonna end up with a better ruler. It takes a lot of shit for regular ass people to take to the streets. Also consider that despite the mobilization all the masked cops in Moscow are still patrolling and none of them have to go to the west. Anything that reeks of organized discontent is hauled off in black vans.

    So like, I get it. And there's been plenty of examples of revolutions in places that were just as shitty. But there's a reason why most analysts expect a palace revolution first, rather than a popular uprising.

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  • V1mV1m Registered User regular
    Historically 'palace revolutions' and army coups are rather more frequent than popular revolutions. The popular revolutions are famous largely because they're rare.

    Unfortunately the leading candidates for a palace revolution in Russia are, incredibly, worse than Putin. Specifically that Wagner Group guy who is blatantly positioning himself for the job and has openly said that the campaign in Ukraine is going bad because they're not warcriming enough.

    A "Year Of The Five Tsars" would probably be a best-case outcome for Russia, in the sense that it would see at least 4 of the most powerful psychopaths dead.

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  • HydropoloHydropolo Registered User regular
    Polaritie wrote: »
    That_Guy wrote: »

    ‼️ White House announces new $1.1 billion weapons pkg for #Ukraine. It includes +18 HIMARS systems, hundreds of armored vehicles, radars and counter-drone systems.

    FdwynNoXEAAqMtW?format=jpg&name=small

    Ostap Yarysh is a journalist for the Voice of America.

    That's a lot of freedom heading straight to where it's needed more. That package alone could guard the a massive chunk of the northern border with Belarus and Russia.

    That seems like literally everything except tanks being shipped over... and it doesn't seem impossible that somebody's training up Ukrainian tank crews either (I'm assuming tanks are more complicated to operate than what's being sent in this package)

    I believe Poland is working on a general purpose service depot near the border, such a thing would be needed as its not that Abrams are impossible to use or nearly as hard to train to use as a plane or whatever, it's that repairing and maintaining the things is a nightmare and why almost all of the Taliban's Abrams tanks are now giant heavy decorations

    An Abrams uses jet fuel to go. It's a jet.

    It's a jet turbine but the Abrams will run on just about anything, jet fuel, diesel, unleaded, vodka, hot sauce, whatever

    The logistical infrastructure required to support it is the biggest hurdle

    For example, the Australian version runs generally on Diesel because the Australian Army doesn't just have a massive volume of JP-8 like the US military.

  • TarantioTarantio Registered User regular
    Not to mention, the most immediate problem for these conscripts personally is that they are being shipped off to war without the training and resources needed to fight.

    A different fight with worse odds and worse consequences for your family if you get killed is not an appealing proposition, despite being a fight for justice instead of against it.

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  • HappylilElfHappylilElf Registered User regular
    Golden Yak wrote: »
    Jesus, just revolt already.

    This is something I’ve been considering since the exodus of people trying to leave Russia. Instead of leaving, protest and revolt against the regime and try to enact some meaningful change. I know it comes with considerable risk, but at this point it is almost a moral obligation to the world and fellow citizens.

    I get the sentiment, I really do, but I just can't support line of thought.

    I'm sitting here safely half a world away so, at least personally, I don't get to criticize people who aren't willing to risk their own life.

    I'd do everything I could to support them if they did (which frankly isn't much more than fuckall) but, again at least to me, I definitely don't get to sit here in absolute safety and gripe about them.

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  • ceresceres Registered User, Moderator mod
    R-dem wrote: »
    Two tangential notes before going back to seriousness:

    Saturation diving is fascinating and awesome and also completely insane, and if anyone ever has some time to kill there are some amazing documentaries about it. Just, you know, fuck nitrogen and p-diff.

    Also now that I know the bells get Internet I have mental images of saturation divers playing Subnautica on Steam in their off time.



    We aren't that cool, but we try to be

    Sorry, I know this was pages ago, but you would have to pay me so much money and in the event of my death agree to make my son king of the land.

    And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
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  • Stabbity StyleStabbity Style Registered User regular
    I know we've tread this ground before but it's still just super frustrating that apparently there's no recourse if a dictator decides to commit genocide. Other countries aren't gonna do anything, the rank and file serving under him aren't gonna do anything, the citizens of his country aren't going to do anything. Literally anyone doing anything are the people being genocided. And it's not just Ukraine, it's pretty much everywhere. Like, the only one I think anyone actually stopped (albeit far too late and not even for the purpose of stopping it) was Hitler and that was only because he decided to invade basically everyone.

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  • CasualCasual Registered User regular
    Golden Yak wrote: »
    Jesus, just revolt already.

    This is something I’ve been considering since the exodus of people trying to leave Russia. Instead of leaving, protest and revolt against the regime and try to enact some meaningful change. I know it comes with considerable risk, but at this point it is almost a moral obligation to the world and fellow citizens.

    Easy to say from a position of safety. Imagine you live in a place where the slightest sign of disobedience can get you and your loved ones disappeared, are you gonna go out on the street and wave signs for the slight chance it makes life better for other people?

    Any sane person with a shred of self preservation is just going to gtfo. The massive brain drain also significantly hurts Russia.

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  • CornucopiistCornucopiist Registered User regular
    edited September 29
    I know we've tread this ground before but it's still just super frustrating that apparently there's no recourse if a dictator decides to commit genocide. Other countries aren't gonna do anything, the rank and file serving under him aren't gonna do anything, the citizens of his country aren't going to do anything. Literally anyone doing anything are the people being genocided. And it's not just Ukraine, it's pretty much everywhere. Like, the only one I think anyone actually stopped (albeit far too late and not even for the purpose of stopping it) was Hitler and that was only because he decided to invade basically everyone.

    Hence the importance of keeping your politics away from nationalism at all f*cking cost.
    Punch the Nazis while there are still pearl-clutching moderates. Punch them early, when they are only dog-whistling. Openly support Nazi-punchers. Make sure that everyone knows that the alternative to punching them early is dictatorship, genocide, and the eventual removal of all hope. “A boot stomping on a human face forever.”

    Cornucopiist on
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  • ProhassProhass Registered User regular
    edited September 29
    I know we've tread this ground before but it's still just super frustrating that apparently there's no recourse if a dictator decides to commit genocide. Other countries aren't gonna do anything, the rank and file serving under him aren't gonna do anything, the citizens of his country aren't going to do anything. Literally anyone doing anything are the people being genocided. And it's not just Ukraine, it's pretty much everywhere. Like, the only one I think anyone actually stopped (albeit far too late and not even for the purpose of stopping it) was Hitler and that was only because he decided to invade basically everyone.

    I think it’s less anyone can commit genocide and more anyone with nukes can commit genocide and there’s only so many things everyone else can do to both stop them and avoid nuclear Armageddon

    If Putin didn’t have nukes we would’ve been providing air support to Ukrainians by this stage at the very least and the war would be over

    Prohass on
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  • MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    V1m wrote: »
    It's not as flashy as HIMARS, but that troop training support is at least as important to Ukraine's survival. Those properly trained and equipped troops with be worth 10 or 20 times their number of untrained, barely equipped conscripts (and will consequently be 10 or 20 times more effective per unit effort of transport and supply logistics employed).

    Training them properly (and feeding them meanwhile) in a place where they're completely safe from everyone but themselves has relieved Ukraine of a huge burden. And the morale of those troops, knowing that they're actually trained, actually have some gear, actually have a chance of surviving this shitstorm, will be infinitely higher.

    Not to mention the morale of their families.

    This is surely a non-trivial factor in Ukraine's lack of recruitment issues. People are happy to join up because they're confident that they'll be valuable and valued.

    I mean, this is arguably one of the other big factors. While there's absolutely danger any time you're in a warzone, and most people aren't anxious to kill people, knowledge that you're being trained in the best that the world can offer, and that you're not up against the "iron curtain", but rusty sheetmetal held up by some particularly thick but rotten planks.

    Contrast to the Russians sending their troops into a woodchipper.

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  • Stabbity StyleStabbity Style Registered User regular
    Prohass wrote: »
    I know we've tread this ground before but it's still just super frustrating that apparently there's no recourse if a dictator decides to commit genocide. Other countries aren't gonna do anything, the rank and file serving under him aren't gonna do anything, the citizens of his country aren't going to do anything. Literally anyone doing anything are the people being genocided. And it's not just Ukraine, it's pretty much everywhere. Like, the only one I think anyone actually stopped (albeit far too late and not even for the purpose of stopping it) was Hitler and that was only because he decided to invade basically everyone.

    I think it’s less anyone can commit genocide and more anyone with nukes can commit genocide and there’s only so many things everyone else can do to both stop them and avoid nuclear Armageddon

    If Putin didn’t have nukes we would’ve been providing air support to Ukrainians by this stage at the very least and the war would be over

    I dunno, you look at pretty much any genocide in the last 100 years, only Russia/Soviet Union and China have had nukes protecting them.

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  • AstharielAsthariel Registered User regular
    Yes, expecting Russia's people to revolt is not fair considering how much is there at risk for people trying to protest, but it is simply a sad reality that there is no other way - the change to Russia NEEDS to come from inside of Russia, any kind of outside intervention is simply not viable. It is what it is, it's either revolt or Russia will continue to slowly die and / or further radicalize for next decades.

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  • HydropoloHydropolo Registered User regular
    Prohass wrote: »
    I know we've tread this ground before but it's still just super frustrating that apparently there's no recourse if a dictator decides to commit genocide. Other countries aren't gonna do anything, the rank and file serving under him aren't gonna do anything, the citizens of his country aren't going to do anything. Literally anyone doing anything are the people being genocided. And it's not just Ukraine, it's pretty much everywhere. Like, the only one I think anyone actually stopped (albeit far too late and not even for the purpose of stopping it) was Hitler and that was only because he decided to invade basically everyone.

    I think it’s less anyone can commit genocide and more anyone with nukes can commit genocide and there’s only so many things everyone else can do to both stop them and avoid nuclear Armageddon

    If Putin didn’t have nukes we would’ve been providing air support to Ukrainians by this stage at the very least and the war would be over

    I dunno, you look at pretty much any genocide in the last 100 years, only Russia/Soviet Union and China have had nukes protecting them.

    A lot of them have also seen bigger powers intervening as well. Not all clearly, but any restriction on it is "no party felt strongly about it" or "a nuclear power guaranteed them". Also, you are leaving out a lot of nuclear powers who have committed at least light genocide (including the US and Israel and France). Then you have countries like Turkey that are after the Kurds but are part of NATO so.........

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  • honoverehonovere Registered User regular
    And there it is. Russian annexation of Luhansk, Donezk, Cherson, and Saporischschja is scheduled for Friday afternoon according to Kremlin spokesperson Peskow.

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  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    honovere wrote: »
    And there it is. Russian annexation of Luhansk, Donezk, Cherson, and Saporischschja is scheduled for Friday afternoon according to Kremlin spokesperson Peskow.

    So much for offering independent-but-Russia-aligned status for Kherson and Zaporizhzhia. I guess they saw Ukraine wasn't biting.

    Netscape
  • V1mV1m Registered User regular
    honovere wrote: »
    And there it is. Russian annexation of Luhansk, Donezk, Cherson, and Saporischschja is scheduled for Friday afternoon according to Kremlin spokesperson Peskow.

    So much for offering independent-but-Russia-aligned status for Kherson and Zaporizhzhia. I guess they saw Ukraine wasn't biting.

    Oh I think they'll find that Ukraine is pretty fucking bitey

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  • MovitzMovitz Registered User regular
    edited September 29
    honovere wrote: »
    And there it is. Russian annexation of Luhansk, Donezk, Cherson, and Saporischschja is scheduled for Friday afternoon according to Kremlin spokesperson Peskow.

    Fuck, expected but still. Now we have some nerve-wracking days ahead of us when Russia figures out what to do when the Ukranians don't stop taking back their rightful territories. I'm really hoping someone with a cool head is in charge of the big red button in the Kremlin. I really, really, don't want to live in a world where annexations backed up with nukes becomes part of the playbook.

    I hate interesting times :/

    Movitz on
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  • VanguardVanguard Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    Movitz wrote: »
    honovere wrote: »
    And there it is. Russian annexation of Luhansk, Donezk, Cherson, and Saporischschja is scheduled for Friday afternoon according to Kremlin spokesperson Peskow.

    Fuck, expected but still. Now we have some nerve-wracking days ahead of us when Russia figures out what to do when the Ukranians don't stop taking back their rightful territories. I'm really hoping someone with a cool head is in charge of the big red button in the Kremlin. I really, really, don't want to live in a world where annexations backed up with nukes becomes a playbook strategy.

    I hate interesting times :/

    I think the pipeline and this are related. Russia is going to claim that Ukraine is assaulting Russia, blame the pipeline in them (saying it got help from the West), so more heinous shit and escalate.

  • electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    Vanguard wrote: »
    Movitz wrote: »
    honovere wrote: »
    And there it is. Russian annexation of Luhansk, Donezk, Cherson, and Saporischschja is scheduled for Friday afternoon according to Kremlin spokesperson Peskow.

    Fuck, expected but still. Now we have some nerve-wracking days ahead of us when Russia figures out what to do when the Ukranians don't stop taking back their rightful territories. I'm really hoping someone with a cool head is in charge of the big red button in the Kremlin. I really, really, don't want to live in a world where annexations backed up with nukes becomes a playbook strategy.

    I hate interesting times :/

    I think the pipeline and this are related. Russia is going to claim that Ukraine is assaulting Russia, blame the pipeline in them (saying it got help from the West), so more heinous shit and escalate.

    They can't really escalate like that though. The pipeline is a one shot deal - because anything else in the area is a direct attack on NATO infrastructure. There's no army for them to escalate with that's not already committed, and they've been wasting missiles on civilians just as fast as they can.

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  • SyphonBlueSyphonBlue Registered User regular
    honovere wrote: »
    And there it is. Russian annexation of Luhansk, Donezk, Cherson, and Saporischschja is scheduled for Friday afternoon according to Kremlin spokesperson Peskow.

    Have they even said what the "results" of the "voting" were yet?

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  • [Expletive deleted][Expletive deleted] Registered User regular
    Vanguard wrote: »
    Movitz wrote: »
    honovere wrote: »
    And there it is. Russian annexation of Luhansk, Donezk, Cherson, and Saporischschja is scheduled for Friday afternoon according to Kremlin spokesperson Peskow.

    Fuck, expected but still. Now we have some nerve-wracking days ahead of us when Russia figures out what to do when the Ukranians don't stop taking back their rightful territories. I'm really hoping someone with a cool head is in charge of the big red button in the Kremlin. I really, really, don't want to live in a world where annexations backed up with nukes becomes a playbook strategy.

    I hate interesting times :/

    I think the pipeline and this are related. Russia is going to claim that Ukraine is assaulting Russia, blame the pipeline in them (saying it got help from the West), so more heinous shit and escalate.

    They can't really escalate like that though. The pipeline is a one shot deal - because anything else in the area is a direct attack on NATO infrastructure. There's no army for them to escalate with that's not already committed, and they've been wasting missiles on civilians just as fast as they can.

    The only ways to escalate is direct attack on NATO or ABC stuff.

    Let's hope Putin wants to live.

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    Raiju
  • VanguardVanguard Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    Vanguard wrote: »
    Movitz wrote: »
    honovere wrote: »
    And there it is. Russian annexation of Luhansk, Donezk, Cherson, and Saporischschja is scheduled for Friday afternoon according to Kremlin spokesperson Peskow.

    Fuck, expected but still. Now we have some nerve-wracking days ahead of us when Russia figures out what to do when the Ukranians don't stop taking back their rightful territories. I'm really hoping someone with a cool head is in charge of the big red button in the Kremlin. I really, really, don't want to live in a world where annexations backed up with nukes becomes a playbook strategy.

    I hate interesting times :/

    I think the pipeline and this are related. Russia is going to claim that Ukraine is assaulting Russia, blame the pipeline in them (saying it got help from the West), so more heinous shit and escalate.

    They can't really escalate like that though. The pipeline is a one shot deal - because anything else in the area is a direct attack on NATO infrastructure. There's no army for them to escalate with that's not already committed, and they've been wasting missiles on civilians just as fast as they can.

    What do you mean can’t

    Can’t, won’t, or would not if we were dealing with a rational actor?

    Smrtnik
  • JazzJazz Registered User regular
    edited September 29
    SyphonBlue wrote: »
    honovere wrote: »
    And there it is. Russian annexation of Luhansk, Donezk, Cherson, and Saporischschja is scheduled for Friday afternoon according to Kremlin spokesperson Peskow.

    Have they even said what the "results" of the "voting" were yet?

    BBC News reported the "results" were 97% in favour of annexation in one of the provinces, 98% in the other three (can't find the screen grab now I'm afraid).

    So about as legit as you'd expect. Even Kim Jong-Un would probably go "blimey, that's a bit blatant".

    Edit: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-63052207.amp - this story says Kremlin-backed sources are saying 99.23%.

    Jazz on
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  • electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    Vanguard wrote: »
    Vanguard wrote: »
    Movitz wrote: »
    honovere wrote: »
    And there it is. Russian annexation of Luhansk, Donezk, Cherson, and Saporischschja is scheduled for Friday afternoon according to Kremlin spokesperson Peskow.

    Fuck, expected but still. Now we have some nerve-wracking days ahead of us when Russia figures out what to do when the Ukranians don't stop taking back their rightful territories. I'm really hoping someone with a cool head is in charge of the big red button in the Kremlin. I really, really, don't want to live in a world where annexations backed up with nukes becomes a playbook strategy.

    I hate interesting times :/

    I think the pipeline and this are related. Russia is going to claim that Ukraine is assaulting Russia, blame the pipeline in them (saying it got help from the West), so more heinous shit and escalate.

    They can't really escalate like that though. The pipeline is a one shot deal - because anything else in the area is a direct attack on NATO infrastructure. There's no army for them to escalate with that's not already committed, and they've been wasting missiles on civilians just as fast as they can.

    What do you mean can’t

    Can’t, won’t, or would not if we were dealing with a rational actor?

    I mean literally can't.

    Below "nuclear war with ICBMs" Russia's got nothing left in the tank, and that's not an escalation that's the end of the line.

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  • Mc zanyMc zany Registered User regular
    edited September 29
    Not surprising considering there are videos of the vote counters not even bothering to look at the papers before counting them as "yes" (it seems a lot were left blank)

    Mc zany on
    Jazz
  • Stabbity StyleStabbity Style Registered User regular
    Vanguard wrote: »
    Movitz wrote: »
    honovere wrote: »
    And there it is. Russian annexation of Luhansk, Donezk, Cherson, and Saporischschja is scheduled for Friday afternoon according to Kremlin spokesperson Peskow.

    Fuck, expected but still. Now we have some nerve-wracking days ahead of us when Russia figures out what to do when the Ukranians don't stop taking back their rightful territories. I'm really hoping someone with a cool head is in charge of the big red button in the Kremlin. I really, really, don't want to live in a world where annexations backed up with nukes becomes a playbook strategy.

    I hate interesting times :/

    I think the pipeline and this are related. Russia is going to claim that Ukraine is assaulting Russia, blame the pipeline in them (saying it got help from the West), so more heinous shit and escalate.

    Is there really much room to escalate? They're already doing war crimes like crazy, they've already started mobilization. Like, short of nuclear weapons or chemical weapons, it feels like they're doing everything they have available other than like, complete mobilization of millions of people beyond what they're currently planning on mobilizing.

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  • MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    Hydropolo wrote: »
    Prohass wrote: »
    I know we've tread this ground before but it's still just super frustrating that apparently there's no recourse if a dictator decides to commit genocide. Other countries aren't gonna do anything, the rank and file serving under him aren't gonna do anything, the citizens of his country aren't going to do anything. Literally anyone doing anything are the people being genocided. And it's not just Ukraine, it's pretty much everywhere. Like, the only one I think anyone actually stopped (albeit far too late and not even for the purpose of stopping it) was Hitler and that was only because he decided to invade basically everyone.

    I think it’s less anyone can commit genocide and more anyone with nukes can commit genocide and there’s only so many things everyone else can do to both stop them and avoid nuclear Armageddon

    If Putin didn’t have nukes we would’ve been providing air support to Ukrainians by this stage at the very least and the war would be over

    I dunno, you look at pretty much any genocide in the last 100 years, only Russia/Soviet Union and China have had nukes protecting them.

    A lot of them have also seen bigger powers intervening as well. Not all clearly, but any restriction on it is "no party felt strongly about it" or "a nuclear power guaranteed them". Also, you are leaving out a lot of nuclear powers who have committed at least light genocide (including the US and Israel and France). Then you have countries like Turkey that are after the Kurds but are part of NATO so.........

    Yeah, if Yugoslavia had nukes, no way that Bosnia and Croatia exist now as separate states, or likely as ethnic groups.

    shrykeSmrtnikmarajiElldren
  • raging_stormraging_storm Registered User regular
    ceres wrote: »
    R-dem wrote: »
    Two tangential notes before going back to seriousness:

    Saturation diving is fascinating and awesome and also completely insane, and if anyone ever has some time to kill there are some amazing documentaries about it. Just, you know, fuck nitrogen and p-diff.

    Also now that I know the bells get Internet I have mental images of saturation divers playing Subnautica on Steam in their off time.



    We aren't that cool, but we try to be

    Sorry, I know this was pages ago, but you would have to pay me so much money and in the event of my death agree to make my son king of the land.

    The crazy thing is those of us who do stuff like this love it. Nobody would want to do anything else. You get to do crazy shit with other crazy nutters and they are going to pay you six figures for it? Hell yeah! It's a great gig! Most of us go stir crazy when we are doing the desk side of things argue with doctors to go back down. You may think petting a shark is isane, we think it's awesome. Plus you get amazaballs moments like watching someone get into a fist fight with an octopus. It's actually nice though. It's very calm, very deliberate work. It's safe as well. We have tons of regulations and best practices you don't cowboy and hold my beer this stuff, though we all drink like sailors cause well that's also fun! The people are all mostly veterans, usually decorated to hell and back, who are very professional and great to be around. Nobody is at work to punch a clock, unless you are on desk duty, you have to really want to do this to get to do it and that makes things better.

    People see undersea pipeline and other operations and don't realize it's really a mass of ROVs and then some people who really, really, really, really, really want to be there and love it! The best way to describe it to most people is most people say they want to skydive, it's on their bucket list. So you go up and you look about and there are all these people strapped to others with nervous or outright terrified looks on their faces. Then there are the two nutjobs in the back with shit eating grins on their face thinking "this is so cool, I get to leap from a plane, and I might die, man what a life". Imagine feeling like that for weeks on end, being around people feeling the same way!

    Which to bring this back to the topic at hand. Rest assured there are people watching, on call, and looking into the pipeline fuckery. They not only want to do this, they love it. They are highly trained and highly paid. They've also been there and done that before.

    Anytime you see someone doing a crazy job, diver, rescue swimmer, ranger, firefighter, be assured they aren't doing it because they have to. They want to do this. Well almost always. I know a buddy who took a gig cleaning sewage lines of all things. Those pre moist chemical asswipes? Yeah they don't degrade they are clamied to. So they clump into giant balls of shit and clog things up. And there you will be in the shit water, fighting a ball of shit wipes that weighs more than an SUV, wondering how the fuck you ended up here. Also there are big animal down there floating dead in the mess.

    MechMantisDizzy DNetscapeHefflingJazzShadowhopeElvenshaeThegreatcowshrykeelectricitylikesmeNobodyCaptain InertiaceresForarMartini_PhilosopherInquisitor77Commander ZoomGennenalyse RuebenAegeriShadowenFencingsaxRaijufedaykin666Sanguinius666264BlackDragon480Bullheademp123
  • TryCatcherTryCatcher Registered User regular
    zagdrob wrote: »
    Go figure, Russia had Naval Vessels - both surface ships and subs in the area prior to and around the time of the pipeline attack.

    https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/09/28/politics/nord-stream-pipeline-leak-russian-navy-ships/index.html

    Who could ever have foreseen the country doing stupid irrational things at the behest of their seemingly insane leader would do something stupid like this.

    Edit - the article really does go out of it's way to not directly accuse Russia but 'yeah of course Russia'
    Russia has requested a UN Security Council meeting on the damaged pipeline this week – something the senior US official said is also suspicious. Typically, the official said, Russia isn’t organized enough to move so quickly, suggesting that the maneuver was pre-planned.

    Heh, that's a fourth-degree burn there.

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  • schussschuss Registered User regular
    Vanguard wrote: »
    Vanguard wrote: »
    Movitz wrote: »
    honovere wrote: »
    And there it is. Russian annexation of Luhansk, Donezk, Cherson, and Saporischschja is scheduled for Friday afternoon according to Kremlin spokesperson Peskow.

    Fuck, expected but still. Now we have some nerve-wracking days ahead of us when Russia figures out what to do when the Ukranians don't stop taking back their rightful territories. I'm really hoping someone with a cool head is in charge of the big red button in the Kremlin. I really, really, don't want to live in a world where annexations backed up with nukes becomes a playbook strategy.

    I hate interesting times :/

    I think the pipeline and this are related. Russia is going to claim that Ukraine is assaulting Russia, blame the pipeline in them (saying it got help from the West), so more heinous shit and escalate.

    They can't really escalate like that though. The pipeline is a one shot deal - because anything else in the area is a direct attack on NATO infrastructure. There's no army for them to escalate with that's not already committed, and they've been wasting missiles on civilians just as fast as they can.

    What do you mean can’t

    Can’t, won’t, or would not if we were dealing with a rational actor?

    I mean literally can't.

    Below "nuclear war with ICBMs" Russia's got nothing left in the tank, and that's not an escalation that's the end of the line.

    There are questions about how much of the USSRs bioweapons and chemical weapons programs survived. I could see Vlad drop a ton of anthrax on kyiv.

  • raging_stormraging_storm Registered User regular
    Carpy wrote: »
    R-dem wrote: »
    Two tangential notes before going back to seriousness:

    Saturation diving is fascinating and awesome and also completely insane, and if anyone ever has some time to kill there are some amazing documentaries about it. Just, you know, fuck nitrogen and p-diff.

    Also now that I know the bells get Internet I have mental images of saturation divers playing Subnautica on Steam in their off time.



    We aren't that cool, but we try to be

    Giggling at the crazy saturation divers using the same gloves that I wore back when I worked in a Lowes garden center.

    You wear boots and gloves over your boots and gloves! This is for multiple reasons but people just go with what works for them. For years used gloves for shucking oysters over my suit and then my gardening gloves over them, also boots from walmart that I liked. I'm not sure I should have used them for two things but oh well! We had a dude who wore socks over his suit for reasons.

    It's not a job where people care about fashion choices. Though the wearing of neon pink ranger panties over your suit for giggles was kinda funny.

    ceresElvenshaeForarNitsuamarajiCommander ZoomShadowenFencingsaxCarpyBlackDragon480chrono_travellerElldrenemp123
  • raging_stormraging_storm Registered User regular
    schuss wrote: »
    Vanguard wrote: »
    Vanguard wrote: »
    Movitz wrote: »
    honovere wrote: »
    And there it is. Russian annexation of Luhansk, Donezk, Cherson, and Saporischschja is scheduled for Friday afternoon according to Kremlin spokesperson Peskow.

    Fuck, expected but still. Now we have some nerve-wracking days ahead of us when Russia figures out what to do when the Ukranians don't stop taking back their rightful territories. I'm really hoping someone with a cool head is in charge of the big red button in the Kremlin. I really, really, don't want to live in a world where annexations backed up with nukes becomes a playbook strategy.

    I hate interesting times :/

    I think the pipeline and this are related. Russia is going to claim that Ukraine is assaulting Russia, blame the pipeline in them (saying it got help from the West), so more heinous shit and escalate.

    They can't really escalate like that though. The pipeline is a one shot deal - because anything else in the area is a direct attack on NATO infrastructure. There's no army for them to escalate with that's not already committed, and they've been wasting missiles on civilians just as fast as they can.

    What do you mean can’t

    Can’t, won’t, or would not if we were dealing with a rational actor?

    I mean literally can't.

    Below "nuclear war with ICBMs" Russia's got nothing left in the tank, and that's not an escalation that's the end of the line.

    There are questions about how much of the USSRs bioweapons and chemical weapons programs survived. I could see Vlad drop a ton of anthrax on kyiv.

    Nukes are harder to keep up than conventional weapons. These people sell fuel for their tanks. What makes you think the tritium gas for the nukes wasn't sold off?

    NetscapezepherinTryCatcherShadowenFencingsaxRaijuMan in the Mists
  • DarklyreDarklyre Registered User regular
    You may think petting a shark is isane, we think it's awesome. Plus you get amazaballs moments like watching someone get into a fist fight with an octopus.

    I am in the wrong line of work.

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  • R-demR-dem Registered User regular
    It's not just the Abrams that runs on JP-8 in the ground forces. US logistics doesn't want to bother with multiple fuel sources, so a big ol' HEMTT tanker rolls up and you top everything off with it. EVERYTHING. Earthmovers? Do it. Humvees? Heck yeah, dump that stuff in there. Jerry cans for the tent stoves? JP-8's actually safer than regular gas, go for it!*

    *I actually have no idea if it's safer, but years on down the road when I develop ass cancer from living in JP-8-heated tents I can say "But Sarge told me it was OK!"

    ThegreatcowGnome-InterruptuselectricitylikesmeWeaverRingoElvenshaeForarSmrtnikMartini_PhilosopherLabelRhesus PositiveAegeriFencingsaxfedaykin666BlackDragon480BullheadElldrenemp123
  • MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    Darklyre wrote: »
    You may think petting a shark is isane, we think it's awesome. Plus you get amazaballs moments like watching someone get into a fist fight with an octopus.

    I am in the wrong line of work.

    Depends. Do you think you could WIN a fistfight with an octopus? If not, I'm not sure a career change would be a good idea.

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  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    edited September 29
    schuss wrote: »
    Vanguard wrote: »
    Vanguard wrote: »
    Movitz wrote: »
    honovere wrote: »
    And there it is. Russian annexation of Luhansk, Donezk, Cherson, and Saporischschja is scheduled for Friday afternoon according to Kremlin spokesperson Peskow.

    Fuck, expected but still. Now we have some nerve-wracking days ahead of us when Russia figures out what to do when the Ukranians don't stop taking back their rightful territories. I'm really hoping someone with a cool head is in charge of the big red button in the Kremlin. I really, really, don't want to live in a world where annexations backed up with nukes becomes a playbook strategy.

    I hate interesting times :/

    I think the pipeline and this are related. Russia is going to claim that Ukraine is assaulting Russia, blame the pipeline in them (saying it got help from the West), so more heinous shit and escalate.

    They can't really escalate like that though. The pipeline is a one shot deal - because anything else in the area is a direct attack on NATO infrastructure. There's no army for them to escalate with that's not already committed, and they've been wasting missiles on civilians just as fast as they can.

    What do you mean can’t

    Can’t, won’t, or would not if we were dealing with a rational actor?

    I mean literally can't.

    Below "nuclear war with ICBMs" Russia's got nothing left in the tank, and that's not an escalation that's the end of the line.

    There are questions about how much of the USSRs bioweapons and chemical weapons programs survived. I could see Vlad drop a ton of anthrax on kyiv.

    Nukes are harder to keep up than conventional weapons. These people sell fuel for their tanks. What makes you think the tritium gas for the nukes wasn't sold off?

    Best indication is probably the lack of nuclear material being used by terrorists (who are unlikely to sit on such a hot item without using it) or in places like Syria, and the sluggish pace of nuclear weapons programs in the countries currently pursuing them.

    State actors won't keep a nuclear weapon secret because it doesn't work if it's secret (Israel's nominally secret stockpile is the worst kept secret in the world on purpose) and non state actors won't sit on one unused because it is simply too hot in multiple senses of the word.


    Tank fuel is tank fuel. Anyone with an engine that'll run on it can buy it and it's just like all the other fuel of that type so it's basically fungible. Same with bullets, anyone with a gun that shoots them can use them. Good luck ever finding any of this stuff once it's out the door.

    Nuclear material is like trying to sell a stolen Stradivarius. There's a reason why truly priceless works of art keep getting left in storage lockers or donated back to their museums or even burned. Because it's simply impossible to sell them - nobody in the market will be checking the back of the local drug dealer's van for random bargains and any channel to the people who would be in the market will almost definitely explode the second you speak the words aloud.

    Hevach on
    GiantGeek2020zepherinshrykeEddyElvenshaeCommander ZoomShadowen
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