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The Locked Tomb Series (open spoilers for Gideon and Harrow! Nona the Ninth is out!)

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  • MegaMan001MegaMan001 CRNA Rochester, MNRegistered User regular
    MegaMan001 wrote: »
    I have finished Nona.

    Can anyone explain Nona?
    The short version as I understand it
    Nona was Harrow's body, rescued by Pyrrha, containing the soul of Alecto, the Emperor's """cavalier""" who was actually the soul of the Earth that was killed and devoured by the Emperor in something like the lyctoral process when he killed everyone on Earth, and every planet in the solar system to boot, as seen in the dream sequences.
    The resurrection beast was parked over the planet they were on, not eating it because Nona (Alecto, who is actually something like the Resurrection Beast of Earth) was there. Nona was dying because Harrow's human body couldn't really contain a planet soul, so they returned her to the Locked Tomb where Harrow's soul had parked itself in Alecto's body at the end of Harrow, and they did swapsies.

    Okay I think I got most of that.

    Nona Epilogue Questions
    The person speaking ye olde English would be Alecto's body? Which I think is a construct that John made to house the soul of Earth he murdered in the initial resurrection?

    I am in the business of saving lives.
  • TofystedethTofystedeth Registered User regular
    MegaMan001 wrote: »
    MegaMan001 wrote: »
    I have finished Nona.

    Can anyone explain Nona?
    The short version as I understand it
    Nona was Harrow's body, rescued by Pyrrha, containing the soul of Alecto, the Emperor's """cavalier""" who was actually the soul of the Earth that was killed and devoured by the Emperor in something like the lyctoral process when he killed everyone on Earth, and every planet in the solar system to boot, as seen in the dream sequences.
    The resurrection beast was parked over the planet they were on, not eating it because Nona (Alecto, who is actually something like the Resurrection Beast of Earth) was there. Nona was dying because Harrow's human body couldn't really contain a planet soul, so they returned her to the Locked Tomb where Harrow's soul had parked itself in Alecto's body at the end of Harrow, and they did swapsies.

    Okay I think I got most of that.

    Nona Epilogue Questions
    The person speaking ye olde English would be Alecto's body? Which I think is a construct that John made to house the soul of Earth he murdered in the initial resurrection?
    Yeah. Alecto in Alecto's body instead of a borrowed human body seems to be a much weirder entity. Which kind of explains why the other lyctors referred to her as a monster. And yes her body was built by John after he lyctorized the Earth to contain her.

    steam_sig.png
  • 3cl1ps33cl1ps3 I will build a labyrinth to house the cheese Registered User regular
    MegaMan001 wrote: »
    MegaMan001 wrote: »
    I have finished Nona.

    Can anyone explain Nona?
    The short version as I understand it
    Nona was Harrow's body, rescued by Pyrrha, containing the soul of Alecto, the Emperor's """cavalier""" who was actually the soul of the Earth that was killed and devoured by the Emperor in something like the lyctoral process when he killed everyone on Earth, and every planet in the solar system to boot, as seen in the dream sequences.
    The resurrection beast was parked over the planet they were on, not eating it because Nona (Alecto, who is actually something like the Resurrection Beast of Earth) was there. Nona was dying because Harrow's human body couldn't really contain a planet soul, so they returned her to the Locked Tomb where Harrow's soul had parked itself in Alecto's body at the end of Harrow, and they did swapsies.

    Okay I think I got most of that.

    Nona Epilogue Questions
    The person speaking ye olde English would be Alecto's body? Which I think is a construct that John made to house the soul of Earth he murdered in the initial resurrection?

    Yes.

  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    edited December 2022
    A couple notes on Nona:
    Nona seems to have pieces or at least memories of Harrow and/or Gideon. I don't think Nona is Alecto so much as Alecto was the biggest piece of the soul melange that was Nona.

    Still not sure John killed killed the Earth like he did the other planets. Definitely did some sort of Lyctorization with it though.

    Also super amused that the Earth's body is based on the most unnatural body possible: that of Barbie.

    Edit: Oh yeah, Phyrra didn't initially rescue Harrow's body from the River. Somehow The Emperor's side had Harrow's body but Blood of Eden had Gideon's. Somewhere off screen but vaguely referenced the BoE (i.e. Cam/Pal and Phyrra, maybe Coronabeth) rescued Harrow's body but lost Gideon's in the process.

    DevoutlyApathetic on
    Nod. Get treat. PSN: Quippish
  • tzeentchlingtzeentchling Doctor of Rocks OaklandRegistered User regular
    I personally think Nona was actually one of the identities, or an amalgam thereof, of the soul/thanergy energy of the 200 murdered Drearburgh children used to conceive Harrow. I strongly suspect she's a version of what Teacher was, only produced by accident rather than intentionally the way the Lyctors did it. Crux mentions that Harrow has "gone away before" and even told him and others that Harrow "wasn't her name," but Harrow has always "come back to them." It's not hard to believe that someone as cold and repressive as Harrow might draw inward when faced with a sufficiently large shock to her system and allow another personality to the front until she can deal with it.

    I also suspect that Harrow's creation ritual somehow absorbed part of Alecto's soul unintentionally, perhaps because a certain amount of energy was missing when Gideon didn't die and they had to pull it in from somewhere. This would explain why Harrow has felt a connection with Alecto and is able to take her place in the dream world of the Emperor and talk with John, and why Alecto's spirit was able to ride her body. It might even be why Harrow saw The Body during her hallucinations.

  • TofystedethTofystedeth Registered User regular
    Huh that's a super cool theory.

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  • MegaMan001MegaMan001 CRNA Rochester, MNRegistered User regular
    General Series Musings
    Okay, so, the Lyctoral process is the union of a non-necromancer soul with a necromancer. The soul is used as a battery for necromancy, which otherwise needs ambient energy (thanergy or thanergy?) to work. This kills the donor (usually).

    John, when he killed the soul of Earth (Alecto)to fuel the original resurrection (after climate change), he was able to simultaneously create a construct and bind Alecto to it.

    While chasing the mega rich humans escaping from Earth, John manages to destroy every other planet in the Solar system. At some point later he resurrects his original seven supporters (two scientists, Augustine and Mercy, the cop (Gideon?), the hedge fund little brother or whatever, and the nun (Anastasia?) He then works the Lyctoral process on them without divulging you don't have to kill the donor (cavalier?) John also admits to tampering with his Saints memories.

    This is all to establish Lyctors, powerful enough necromancers who can drop into the spirit world (River) to fight Revenant Beasts (the souls of all the planets in the Sol system, minus Alecto, that he created himself) because once a Lyctor drops their soul into the River to fight, their body gets autopiloted by the cavaliers' soul to fight the Heralds?

    I am in the business of saving lives.
  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    edited December 2022
    Replying to Megaman but I'm just putting the whole thing in spoilers since it'd be easy to screw up.
    MegaMan001 wrote: »
    General Series Musings

    Okay, so, the Lyctoral process is the union of a non-necromancer soul with a necromancer. The soul is used as a battery for necromancy, which otherwise needs ambient energy (thanergy or thanergy?) to work. This kills the donor (usually).

    Don't know if it needs to be a non-necromancer. The examples we have all have been. Killing the donor is the accepted process but feels kind of iffy since they're still some sort of conscious entity at least for awhile. The necromancer consuming the other soul doesn't seem to be required but often happens.
    MegaMan001 wrote: »
    John, when he killed the soul of Earth (Alecto)to fuel the original resurrection (after climate change), he was able to simultaneously create a construct and bind Alecto to it.

    NOT climate change. Everybody but the rich assholes were doomed to die of climate change but John basically kicks off a global thermonuclear war by nuking a city in Australia. At the same time other folks realized what the rich assholes were doing and also escalated violence.
    MegaMan001 wrote: »
    While chasing the mega rich humans escaping from Earth, John manages to destroy every other planet in the Solar system. At some point later he resurrects his original seven supporters (two scientists, Augustine and Mercy, the cop (Gideon?), the hedge fund little brother or whatever, and the nun (Anastasia?) He then works the Lyctoral process on them without divulging you don't have to kill the donor (cavalier?) John also admits to tampering with his Saints memories.

    I don't think the raised Lyctors have their memories from before but it is unclear to me. Maybe he just can't raise people with their memories but that doesn't seem to jive with his comments about "knowing where memory lives".
    MegaMan001 wrote: »
    This is all to establish Lyctors, powerful enough necromancers who can drop into the spirit world (River) to fight Revenant Beasts (the souls of all the planets in the Sol system, minus Alecto, that he created himself) because once a Lyctor drops their soul into the River to fight, their body gets autopiloted by the cavaliers' soul to fight the Heralds?

    That is a stated motive. Not real sure how true it is. The idea was that John couldn't go into the river because your necromancy doesn't work in the river and his necromancy is the only reason the Sun still burns in the home system. Of course...Augustine dragged him into the river and wrestled for quite awhile and yet Earth didn't get toasted/frozen. (Apparently something did happen to the sun when he got disintigrated which is interesting.)

    DevoutlyApathetic on
    Nod. Get treat. PSN: Quippish
  • TofystedethTofystedeth Registered User regular
    General metaphysics speculation from Nona
    I'm not sure how much time there is to establish it, but I wonder if we won't see someone doing non necromantic magic. They talk a lot about thanergy vs thalergy, and mention that their understanding of the river and beyond is incomplete/inaccurate.

    And at the end of Nona when John had finished killing everyone on Earth she said "I picked you too change and this is how you repay me?" It seems odd that a planet full of life would give someone the gift of magic so focused on death.

    Like maybe Earth just opened the door and he turned left instead of right.

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  • FishmanFishman Put your goddamned hand in the goddamned Box of Pain. Registered User regular
    edited December 2022
    I finished Nona after having it on my desk next to me silently for a month, not wanting to start because I knew I'd only get one first time.

    Going to add my voice to the approvals to say I loved all the NZ nods in this:
    * Name dropping Parachute festival
    * NCEA levels
    * P- talks about training together with cops in Porirua (the location of the National Police college).
    * Quoting Spray and Walk Away infomercial :D


    I've now read all the spoilers and I wanted to add:
    Devils on Antioch speculation:

    Described as being Revenant powered, like the 8th house Cav in Gideon.
    -or basically ghosts from the River all trying to get into the prime world

    Earlier, Kiriona implies that the ghosts of the River are no longer a threat, when discussing how she and Ianthe travelled by shuttle and it didn't threatened whatever part of a soul she has got.

    The implication is that perhaps the ghosts have left the river to possess the (former) people of Antioch and spreading like a plague.

    or:

    Hell is empty and all the devils are here.

    Fishman on
    X-Com LP Thread I, II, III, IV, V
    That's unbelievably cool. Your new name is cool guy. Let's have sex.
  • nightmarennynightmarenny Registered User regular
    A couple notes on Nona:
    Nona seems to have pieces or at least memories of Harrow and/or Gideon. I don't think Nona is Alecto so much as Alecto was the biggest piece of the soul melange that was Nona.

    Still not sure John killed killed the Earth like he did the other planets. Definitely did some sort of Lyctorization with it though.

    Also super amused that the Earth's body is based on the most unnatural body possible: that of Barbie.

    Edit: Oh yeah, Phyrra didn't initially rescue Harrow's body from the River. Somehow The Emperor's side had Harrow's body but Blood of Eden had Gideon's. Somewhere off screen but vaguely referenced the BoE (i.e. Cam/Pal and Phyrra, maybe Coronabeth) rescued Harrow's body but lost Gideon's in the process.

    He did because
    When speaking to Harrow in HtN John says that he killed 9 planets and created 9 revenants. Later he says there are only 8 resurrection beasts and Harrow ponders how the math doesn't work. He definitely killed earth and then stuck the revenant of earth into a shell.

    Quire.jpg
  • tzeentchlingtzeentchling Doctor of Rocks OaklandRegistered User regular
    A couple notes on Nona:
    Nona seems to have pieces or at least memories of Harrow and/or Gideon. I don't think Nona is Alecto so much as Alecto was the biggest piece of the soul melange that was Nona.

    Still not sure John killed killed the Earth like he did the other planets. Definitely did some sort of Lyctorization with it though.

    Also super amused that the Earth's body is based on the most unnatural body possible: that of Barbie.

    Edit: Oh yeah, Phyrra didn't initially rescue Harrow's body from the River. Somehow The Emperor's side had Harrow's body but Blood of Eden had Gideon's. Somewhere off screen but vaguely referenced the BoE (i.e. Cam/Pal and Phyrra, maybe Coronabeth) rescued Harrow's body but lost Gideon's in the process.

    He did because
    When speaking to Harrow in HtN John says that he killed 9 planets and created 9 revenants. Later he says there are only 8 resurrection beasts and Harrow ponders how the math doesn't work. He definitely killed earth and then stuck the revenant of earth into a shell.
    Yeah, Number 7 up in space, while speaking through Captain Duteros, keeps referring to Nona as a "green and breathing thing" which has to represent Earth as the only planet with green life.

    Later, when Nona confronts Ianthe while pretending to be Harrow, she lets out a scream "the way the Captain had done" and briefly KOs everyone "with a necromantic body" in the way that Heralds can drive necros crazy.

  • EtiowsaEtiowsa Registered User regular
    Fishman wrote: »
    I finished Nona after having it on my desk next to me silently for a month, not wanting to start because I knew I'd only get one first time.

    Going to add my voice to the approvals to say I loved all the NZ nods in this:
    * Name dropping Parachute festival
    * NCEA levels
    * P- talks about training together with cops in Porirua (the location of the National Police college).
    * Quoting Spray and Walk Away infomercial :D


    I've now read all the spoilers and I wanted to add:
    Devils on Antioch speculation:

    Described as being Revenant powered, like the 8th house Cav in Gideon.
    -or basically ghosts from the River all trying to get into the prime world

    Earlier, Kiriona implies that the ghosts of the River are no longer a threat, when discussing how she and Ianthe travelled by shuttle and it didn't threatened whatever part of a soul she has got.

    The implication is that perhaps the ghosts have left the river to possess the (former) people of Antioch and spreading like a plague.

    or:

    Hell is empty and all the devils are here.
    I'm guessing they are the soul of the people John killed when he ate the solar system and didn't bother resurrecting for 10k years. I think Varun had a line about how they were tired of waiting or something to that effect.

  • nightmarennynightmarenny Registered User regular
    Hm so I've reached the end of Harrow in my reread.
    It appears based on the final conversation between John and the Lyctors that they all knew what Alecto is. John swears he told the truth about her and I assumed he must be lying but they more or less say(without saying it) that they knew John had killed the Earth and made her into a thing. The only thing they realize is that Alecto must be a product of the Lyctoral process and therefore John must have known a way save the cavaliers. They knew a lot more about John's early history then I would have expected.

    Quire.jpg
  • RoyceSraphimRoyceSraphim Registered User regular
    https://youtube.com/shorts/JT9qaxK8zf0?feature=share

    Now I'm trying to finish the book after starting it because I wanna see if someone could actually take on the entire pokemon universe

  • David_TDavid_T A fashion yes-man is no good to me. Copenhagen, DenmarkRegistered User regular
    I figured my third re-read of the series should be the audiobooks, so I've just now finished Gideon and BOY, boy, BOY do some things stand out more in the audiobook. The foreshadowing, sure, but the Tamsyn Muirness even more so. Just whacking you over the head with that Poochie reference.

    On to Harrow.

    euj90n71sojo.png
  • lonelyahavalonelyahava Call me Ahava ~~She/Her~~ Move to New ZealandRegistered User regular
    I'm also listening to Gideon right now and...

    Yeah. A lot of the fight stuff I must have glossed over white reading but I'm getting it now and yeah.

    Love this

  • Mortal SkyMortal Sky queer punk hedge witchRegistered User regular
    I have only read the first two pages of this thread but I am about 80 pages into Gideon and already feeling the "I was a teenage Homestuck" vibes off of Muir's writing style (in an "it takes a thief..." sorta way)

    If the second book goes full second-person those vibes are gonna be off the charts and I'm frankly already excited

  • Grey GhostGrey Ghost Registered User regular
    Oh, buddy

  • 3cl1ps33cl1ps3 I will build a labyrinth to house the cheese Registered User regular
    Mortal Sky wrote: »
    I have only read the first two pages of this thread but I am about 80 pages into Gideon and already feeling the "I was a teenage Homestuck" vibes off of Muir's writing style (in an "it takes a thief..." sorta way)

    If the second book goes full second-person those vibes are gonna be off the charts and I'm frankly already excited

    uh

    well

  • lonelyahavalonelyahava Call me Ahava ~~She/Her~~ Move to New ZealandRegistered User regular
    I am very excited as I havent been able to find the hard copy books in my bookstores. which is annoying because Muir is an NZ author and I am annoyed at the lack of hard copies.

    But I am very lucky because a kind librarian in the form of @jedoc has graced me with a voucher for an online shop and I have now been able to purchase all 3 books for future reading and notebook keeping.

  • initiatefailureinitiatefailure Registered User regular
    I wish i was a teenage homestuck

    I was an adult when i learned it wasn't a reference to homestar runner

  • nightmarennynightmarenny Registered User regular
    Mortal Sky wrote: »
    I have only read the first two pages of this thread but I am about 80 pages into Gideon and already feeling the "I was a teenage Homestuck" vibes off of Muir's writing style (in an "it takes a thief..." sorta way)

    If the second book goes full second-person those vibes are gonna be off the charts and I'm frankly already excited

    Have you come to the right franchise.

    Quire.jpg
  • Mortal SkyMortal Sky queer punk hedge witchRegistered User regular
    edited March 2023
    Mortal Sky wrote: »
    I have only read the first two pages of this thread but I am about 80 pages into Gideon and already feeling the "I was a teenage Homestuck" vibes off of Muir's writing style (in an "it takes a thief..." sorta way)

    If the second book goes full second-person those vibes are gonna be off the charts and I'm frankly already excited

    Have you come to the right franchise.

    I mean, Tamsyn Muir has never not been active on Tumblr and her time as urbanAnchorite is pretty well known and regarded, and I do think that some of this stuff is already tangible in the ~125 pages I've worked through

    So yeah I think there's a "there" there — Gideon the Ninth is obviously very much doing its own thing, and I wouldn't call it the new Undertale, but I've heard this book very much referred to as post-Tumblr fiction and/or written in the Tumblr dialect and they're not wrong

    Mortal Sky on
  • Grey GhostGrey Ghost Registered User regular
    I think I would disagree it's written in the Tumblr dialect, whatever that means. Specific exchanges between characters, or asides from the narrator, may take on such a tone, but I don't think the bulk of the prose feels like something that couldn't have happened before

  • Mortal SkyMortal Sky queer punk hedge witchRegistered User regular
    I should note there are several places on the internet I'm active as well as several people I know in real life (basically all either Tumblr/MSPA-adjacent) for which this stuff I'm bringing up came as the default pitch for getting folks to read this, so it's genuinely surprising for me to say "hey this is the position I'm approaching this series from" and get some pushback, especially considering how huge the MSPA thread here was

  • lonelyahavalonelyahava Call me Ahava ~~She/Her~~ Move to New ZealandRegistered User regular
    I don't see anybody giving you a lot of pushback? there's discussion from one person on whether a phrase you used is accurate enough, but that's about it? Nobody's telling you that you're wrong to approach it that way.

  • Mortal SkyMortal Sky queer punk hedge witchRegistered User regular
    oh I meant that in a pretty mild sense of the word, just kind of a wake up call to know there are meta angles I take for granted that some folks don't have as much background on

    anyways I should probably dip out of this thread for another book and a half at least (besides maybe a check-in on any significant impressions of the latter acts of Gideon)

  • nightmarennynightmarenny Registered User regular
    Mortal Sky wrote: »
    I should note there are several places on the internet I'm active as well as several people I know in real life (basically all either Tumblr/MSPA-adjacent) for which this stuff I'm bringing up came as the default pitch for getting folks to read this, so it's genuinely surprising for me to say "hey this is the position I'm approaching this series from" and get some pushback, especially considering how huge the MSPA thread here was

    Based on context I think you might have misunderstood my reply?

    Quire.jpg
  • initiatefailureinitiatefailure Registered User regular
    My only awareness of tumblr before reading this book came from posts recycled into twitter/Facebook memes shared by aunts around the world.

    I’m not even really sure what we mean by calling it tubmlrspeak. It just reads as quick wit modern writing to me. It’s like if Vonnegut got way into 40k

  • nightmarennynightmarenny Registered User regular
    My only awareness of tumblr before reading this book came from posts recycled into twitter/Facebook memes shared by aunts around the world.

    I’m not even really sure what we mean by calling it tubmlrspeak. It just reads as quick wit modern writing to me. It’s like if Vonnegut got way into 40k

    This is very interesting because what Mortal Sky is saying makes immediate sense to me. Its the way the references are equal parts memes and Shakespeare. It's the way the entire franchise plays with fanfic culture and tweak the nose of fandom. It's the specific way in which it has a quick wit.

    Quire.jpg
  • Mortal SkyMortal Sky queer punk hedge witchRegistered User regular
    Mortal Sky wrote: »
    I should note there are several places on the internet I'm active as well as several people I know in real life (basically all either Tumblr/MSPA-adjacent) for which this stuff I'm bringing up came as the default pitch for getting folks to read this, so it's genuinely surprising for me to say "hey this is the position I'm approaching this series from" and get some pushback, especially considering how huge the MSPA thread here was

    Based on context I think you might have misunderstood my reply?

    oh probably and/or absolutely

  • lonelyahavalonelyahava Call me Ahava ~~She/Her~~ Move to New ZealandRegistered User regular
    My only awareness of tumblr before reading this book came from posts recycled into twitter/Facebook memes shared by aunts around the world.

    I’m not even really sure what we mean by calling it tubmlrspeak. It just reads as quick wit modern writing to me. It’s like if Vonnegut got way into 40k

    Yeah same. I mean I've heard of tumblr, but i've never interacted with tumblr in any way other than people posting screenschots of tumblr posts.

    that is the most i've ever written the word 'tumblr' in my life.

  • Mortal SkyMortal Sky queer punk hedge witchRegistered User regular
    might be a generational and/or demographic thing given how much younger I am than most of this forum at large — for myself and most people I know who are my age plus or minus a few years (basically 33 to 24 with myself near the middle at 29) Tumblr has historically been a bigger deal than most other social media, especially from 2010-2015, and I have a disproportionately large number of friends who have been active on there non-stop for like a decade or more including through the years where basically anyone else would've declared the site dead

    so I do have a selection bias but also can definitely point at certain tics in the way Taz Muir writes dialogue and especially humor (let alone the way she writes posts on her blogs in her own voice) and go "one of us"

  • JedocJedoc In the scuppers with the staggers and jagsRegistered User regular
    Hrrw

    GDdCWMm.jpg
  • PeenPeen Registered User regular
    I don't even know what y'all are doing. Mortal Sky is saying that people who were way into tumblr in a specific time period may have a different appreciation for what Muir is doing in the books, which they seem to be qualified to say, I don't really think the rest of us are in a position to say otherwise? I will freely admit I have no idea what's happening on tiktok, ever, so when young people do or say something that I don't understand and then say "it's from tiktok" I don't question it, I don't think this is different or that you can't love the Locked Tomb books without being way into tumblr and I don't think anybody else is saying that?

  • Grey GhostGrey Ghost Registered User regular
    I don't think that's what anyone here is doing

  • PeenPeen Registered User regular
    Great! Because what it looked like it that MS said "this book is full of tumblrspeak" and a bunch of people said "what no it isn't and also we don't know what that is" and it was weird but I was reading fast! Glad we still have a good thread!

    I'm trying to figure out when the right time to let my 12 1/2 year old try Gideon is, because I think she'll love it, but she's still a titch young but the temptation is strong.

  • Grey GhostGrey Ghost Registered User regular
    If I came across as saying Mortal Sky was wrong to see that thread in these books, then I spoke poorly and I apologize.

    I spend some time on Tumblr, not a lot, but enough to see a wide range of posting styles, beyond what I personally could parse as a "Tumblr voice." If MS sees a resonance there, that's valid, and maybe younger folks who are more active on the site will appreciate it along that additional axis. I can't guess as to what their experience might be. When I personally read these books, I don't see anything in the prose that feels like it couldn't have been written pre-Tumblr, and in the snarkier interactions I see a kind of humor I've been seeing online for longer than Tumblr has been around. Personal experience only. Everyone brings different things to books!

  • nightmarennynightmarenny Registered User regular
    When it comes to this series and Tumblr If nothing else

    (Spoilers for Harrow)
    nothing screams "Tumblr" more to me than devoting a series of chapters(or arguably half a book) to an extended parody/homage to AU fan fiction.

    Quire.jpg
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