The list for me, personally, of media where I think going in blind is critical for the best experience is incredibly small. It’s all about the execution- I go in to Romeo and Juliet knowing everyone dies. That doesn’t mean it’s not going to move me if they do it well.
I noticed this about myself with the Star Wars prequels. For TPM I was 19 and a superfan so I made sure to go in blind. For AotC I went in blind again. For RotS I said 'to hell with it' and read the novelization which came out like a week before the movie. After that I realized knowing the details didn't really effect my enjoyment.
StraightziHere we may reign secure, and in my choice,To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered Userregular
There's also like, a different culture of it with different artistic mediums that I find interesting.
Like, if I go to the opera or the ballet, there's going to be a plot summary in my program, that's the expectation there. With Shakespeare and a lot of other older theatre too, I know I often have whoever I dragged with me asking what the plot of this one is on our way there. That's all certainly within the realm of voluntary of course, but it's a pretty standard expectation.
+6
GustavFriend of GoatsSomewhere in the OzarksRegistered Userregular
edited May 31
i just think its pretty fair to expect people to hold off on blasting plot twists and reveals everywhere they can until like at least after opening weekend.
but i accept the war was lost when a million jackals started posting some bunk pop science articles about people liking movies better when they are spoiled ages back.
someone once got upset at me for spoiling the end of Hamilton
mf never saw the milk commercial???
well, they were from the UK, so
this is crucial information
i absolutely do not expect anyone outside of america to know or care about some dork who never even got to be president
+33
GustavFriend of GoatsSomewhere in the OzarksRegistered Userregular
I've also noticed that people are much happier to spoil movies when they think they are bad. Which sucks too! That's like telling me the punchline before the setup. I wanna guffaw at the stupid decisions too
someone once got upset at me for spoiling the end of Hamilton
mf never saw the milk commercial???
well, they were from the UK, so
this is crucial information
i absolutely do not expect anyone outside of america to know or care about some dork who never even got to be president
yeah, I wasn't surprised they didn't know (and it's not even like...much more than trivia in the US, even), but also the musical explains that he got shot and who shot him in the opening song
someone once got upset at me for spoiling the end of Hamilton
mf never saw the milk commercial???
well, they were from the UK, so
this is crucial information
i absolutely do not expect anyone outside of america to know or care about some dork who never even got to be president
yeah, I wasn't surprised they didn't know (and it's not even like...much more than trivia in the US, even), but also the musical explains that he got shot and who shot him in the opening song
see this is new information to me because i have never seen hamilton
i do not trust rap music that white grandparents will willingly listen to
+7
GustavFriend of GoatsSomewhere in the OzarksRegistered Userregular
someone once got upset at me for spoiling the end of Hamilton
mf never saw the milk commercial???
well, they were from the UK, so
this is crucial information
i absolutely do not expect anyone outside of america to know or care about some dork who never even got to be president
yeah, I wasn't surprised they didn't know (and it's not even like...much more than trivia in the US, even), but also the musical explains that he got shot and who shot him in the opening song
see this is new information to me because i have never seen hamilton
i do not trust rap music that white grandparents will willingly listen to
im honestly not sure I personally know someone who would hate Hamilton more than you
+12
StraightziHere we may reign secure, and in my choice,To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered Userregular
I've also noticed that people are much happier to spoil movies when they think they are bad. Which sucks too! That's like telling me the punchline before the setup. I wanna guffaw at the stupid decisions too
If anything, I feel like movies that I think are good are more likely to be able to stand up to having parts of them spoiled
+13
3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
I think AJ would find sitting through 14 hours of Lord of the Rings extended easier than sitting through Hamilton, truly.
There's also like, a different culture of it with different artistic mediums that I find interesting.
Like, if I go to the opera or the ballet, there's going to be a plot summary in my program, that's the expectation there. With Shakespeare and a lot of other older theatre too, I know I often have whoever I dragged with me asking what the plot of this one is on our way there. That's all certainly within the realm of voluntary of course, but it's a pretty standard expectation.
Not for nothing but those are also older artforms, yeah?
Which kinda ties into my personal bugbear about Spoiler Culture, where it's asking a lot of folks to completely change how THEY talk about (and thus, interact with) a medium, and switch to this more recent, kinda arbitrary way, all for the sake of... This one tool in storytelling that they have fixated on?
Like, I dunno. Used to be if somebody taped the big game and they wanted to watch it, and they knew folks at the water cooler talk about the sport, they'd just... Not go up to the water cooler. Or if they're passing by a cubicle and realize the game is being discussed, they'd pick up the pace of their walk. They wouldn't loudly stand up and demand that nobody talk about the game anywhere where they can accidentally hear, unless they're... Kind of an asshole?
And now it occasionally feels as though there's this implication that it is somehow rude or immoral to discuss fictional events at a (metaphorical) volume someone else might overhear, and I just don't have it in me to take that too seriously. Don't willfully antagonize people you know are catching up on something, sure, that's just common courtesy. But normalizing "treat every fictional event as a sacrosanct ritual to be spoken of only in whispers" seems wild to me
People do get shitty about sports "spoilers," though they're primarily concerned about watching sports from overseas, where watching them live is much more difficult. I have seen it happen with like, American sports, and I genuinely don't get it
I've also noticed that people are much happier to spoil movies when they think they are bad. Which sucks too! That's like telling me the punchline before the setup. I wanna guffaw at the stupid decisions too
If anything, I feel like movies that I think are good are more likely to be able to stand up to having parts of them spoiled
i feel like every great movie has one piece of it that isn't in the trailers, be it a vibe or a moment, that will absolutely be why i love it and my "okay, so here's why you gotta see this" when selling it to other people
+1
GustavFriend of GoatsSomewhere in the OzarksRegistered Userregular
edited May 31
I think what both ends of spoiler fights are actually fighting about is how much of a jackass they are allowed to be.
But I think its a really weird modern conundrum. Cause on one end it's hard not to roll your eyes at the idea that casting announcements or trailer info are spoilers. But on the other end it gets impossible to avoid the water cooler when every corner of the internet is considered the water cooler.
I think what both ends of spoiler fights are actually fighting about is how much of a jackass they are allowed to be.
But I think its a really weird modern conundrum. Cause on one end it's hard not to roll your eyes at the idea that casting announcements or trailer info are spoilers. But on the other end it gets impossible to avoid the water cooler when every corner of the internet is considered the water cooler.
I will also admit that I've never fully grokked the "once I've started reading a post, I can't stop and I get accidentally spoilered" thing
Fuckin' love an excuse to stop reading a post and scroll, hell yeah, I'm gonna flyyyyyy down that page
Edit: but also, re: water cooler, agreed. Yet even the most unreasonable office mate would get a day, maybe two, MAYBE a week? But anybody going "Don't tell me about last year's Super Bowl" would be looked at... Askance.
Poorochondriac on
+11
GustavFriend of GoatsSomewhere in the OzarksRegistered Userregular
edited May 31
Yeah its less a problem for me with posts that are purely text. But we are also seeing a rise in people posting footage from their phones from the theater all over sites with auto playing video. Or screencaps of the big moments etc. Which I find worse. It's one thing to know the story beats going in its another thing to know how they execute it.
Or even more frustrating is that everything now exists like comic marketing where reveals and shocking developments are posted in actual news sources before the episodes air or the movie's been out for all of one hour. I can find a way to make every problem in the world marketing's fault.
Gustav on
+10
Brovid Hasselsmof[Growling historic on the fury road]Registered Userregular
There's also like, a different culture of it with different artistic mediums that I find interesting.
Like, if I go to the opera or the ballet, there's going to be a plot summary in my program, that's the expectation there. With Shakespeare and a lot of other older theatre too, I know I often have whoever I dragged with me asking what the plot of this one is on our way there. That's all certainly within the realm of voluntary of course, but it's a pretty standard expectation.
Not for nothing but those are also older artforms, yeah?
Which kinda ties into my personal bugbear about Spoiler Culture, where it's asking a lot of folks to completely change how THEY talk about (and thus, interact with) a medium, and switch to this more recent, kinda arbitrary way, all for the sake of... This one tool in storytelling that they have fixated on?
I'm curious what you mean by the "one tool in storytelling" you refer to here. Do you mean the plot?
0
StraightziHere we may reign secure, and in my choice,To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered Userregular
I think there's also like, a lot of media that relies on novelty above all else.
That's not a new or particularly trenchant thought, but I feel like especially with serialized TV and movies the twist and/or the reveal have a tendency to become the meat itself rather than the broth it's cooked in. And it's easy to blame that on the storytellers, who should have done a better job, and that may well be true, but I think there's also something to be said towards enthusiast culture eating up everything else ahead of time. If we know everyone who is cast in a movie before it starts filming, if we read a dozen articles about who this character is in the comics, interviews and press junkets about how everyone feels about the project and what they're hoping for in the future, the ARG that shows exclusive photos, sly nods from the creators on Twitter, et cetera ad nauseum, then what else is there left? Of course those spoilers are in a headline two days later - they're the only thing that hasn't been reported on yet.
There's also like, a different culture of it with different artistic mediums that I find interesting.
Like, if I go to the opera or the ballet, there's going to be a plot summary in my program, that's the expectation there. With Shakespeare and a lot of other older theatre too, I know I often have whoever I dragged with me asking what the plot of this one is on our way there. That's all certainly within the realm of voluntary of course, but it's a pretty standard expectation.
Not for nothing but those are also older artforms, yeah?
Which kinda ties into my personal bugbear about Spoiler Culture, where it's asking a lot of folks to completely change how THEY talk about (and thus, interact with) a medium, and switch to this more recent, kinda arbitrary way, all for the sake of... This one tool in storytelling that they have fixated on?
I'm curious what you mean by the "one tool in storytelling" you refer to here. Do you mean the plot?
Surprise. When information is withheld and revealed is a tool in plotting, but I personally feel that the PACING on a reveal, and how well it is (or isn't) earned, on who within the story does doesn't know it's coming, is all important. The surprise itself, the secrecy, is only one tool in the box.
+13
GustavFriend of GoatsSomewhere in the OzarksRegistered Userregular
Nothing worse than a story that's structured so heavily on a reveal that pretty much everything leading up to it is basically procrastinating.
Can't tell you how many stories would work better if the big shocking reveal was the starting point.
Movie theaters already tailor trailer selection to match the movie they're attached to, to an extent. If you go see a horror movie, you're going to get more horror movie trailers, with deep cuts, because they know that the audience for a Saw movie is going to be more likely to be excited for those, and they know the audience for the Mario movie probably isn't going to line up to see Saw X.
The funniest thing was me realizing Hacksaw Ridge was a Christian themed film because it started showing me a bunch of trailers for God's Not Dead 7: God Kills Woke or whatever
Movie theaters already tailor trailer selection to match the movie they're attached to, to an extent. If you go see a horror movie, you're going to get more horror movie trailers, with deep cuts, because they know that the audience for a Saw movie is going to be more likely to be excited for those, and they know the audience for the Mario movie probably isn't going to line up to see Saw X.
The funniest thing was me realizing Hacksaw Ridge was a Christian themed film because it started showing me a bunch of trailers for God's Not Dead 7: God Kills Woke or whatever
Hacksaw Ridge, one of the few Christian movies in which a guy uses a dismembered human torso as a shield
If your story is ruined by knowing a big surprise then it probably wasn't a very strong story on its other merits
I agree with the slight caveat I think you can still ruin moments of a story without ruining the whole story. But that's some fine-tooth nitpicking on my part.
The best executed media for me personally are the ones that still get me even on further rewatches.
Like, I still gasp at the end of speed racer even though I’ve seen it a million times. It is emotional catharsis distilled in such a way that defies you to get used to it. It always punches me directly in the gut. To me, that’s when a movie or show or book is firing on all cylinders, in a movie’s case where the performance and editing and writing and direction and effects are all so tightly honed that you’re still stunned even when you shouldn’t be surprised.
the best twists/reveals are ones where you get the thrill of going "oh, holy shit!" the first time, and the rewarding experience of watching it again and realizing they put the clues right in front of your face the entire time
not a huge coincidence that the reveals that don't really cheat are the ones that generally make them rewarding story beats regardless of surprise
So one of my D&D players has been sleeping on the D&D movie till it came out on streaming (they no longer go to the theater) and they had a chance to see it. So we haven’t been discussing it at game while they are in the call as a courtesy.
There’s nothing to really spoil for them, it’s not a movie with any major twists or anything. It’s not that narratively challenging. You can see a lot of what is coming ahead of its happening just due to common narrative structures. They’ve seen some of the bigger referential jokes from the trailers, but there’s still some fun in not having absolutely everything described in detail. I think a lot of the first sequence would lose its effect if you’re told why jarnathan is really important to their case.
But it’s been long enough that I at least called them out on it when a movie reference started to come up in a game last week and I stopped a spoiler from leaking out.
0
GustavFriend of GoatsSomewhere in the OzarksRegistered Userregular
The most fun version is where you have a Twin Peaks and you can spoil the whole show for a guy. And then another person can spoil the whole show for the same guy. And neither version aligns at all.
Nothing worse than a story that's structured so heavily on a reveal that pretty much everything leading up to it is basically procrastinating.
Can't tell you how many stories would work better if the big shocking reveal was the starting point.
Now you got me thinking about movies with the big reveal up front and trying to imagine how they'd play out if they tried to play coy with the reveal.
And the first one that comes to mind is Pacific Rim where they try to hide the kaiju for an hour and a half...
0
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
There's also like, a different culture of it with different artistic mediums that I find interesting.
Like, if I go to the opera or the ballet, there's going to be a plot summary in my program, that's the expectation there. With Shakespeare and a lot of other older theatre too, I know I often have whoever I dragged with me asking what the plot of this one is on our way there. That's all certainly within the realm of voluntary of course, but it's a pretty standard expectation.
Not for nothing but those are also older artforms, yeah?
Which kinda ties into my personal bugbear about Spoiler Culture, where it's asking a lot of folks to completely change how THEY talk about (and thus, interact with) a medium, and switch to this more recent, kinda arbitrary way, all for the sake of... This one tool in storytelling that they have fixated on?
I'm curious what you mean by the "one tool in storytelling" you refer to here. Do you mean the plot?
Surprise. When information is withheld and revealed is a tool in plotting, but I personally feel that the PACING on a reveal, and how well it is (or isn't) earned, on who within the story does doesn't know it's coming, is all important. The surprise itself, the secrecy, is only one tool in the box.
I often think about hitchcock's advice to writing tension. If you write a story with two people having a discussion at a table, and after fifteen minutes a bomb underneath explodes, then you've shocked someone for a moment. If you tell the audience there is a bomb under the table set to go off in 15 minutes, then you have them rapt for the duration.
Surprise is just one tool in the toolbox as you said, and way too often it seems like people view it as the only tool. All the shit about GoT just trying to shock or westworld changing the script because someone guessed the ending....if something is the natural consequence of the story and characters, let it happen! Don't shoehorn in a surprise just because the ending is expected. The thing that made the red wedding work is because it bucked genre conventions while being 100% foreseeable based on the characters and actions.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
GustavFriend of GoatsSomewhere in the OzarksRegistered Userregular
edited May 31
i think about that tweet every single time i start a new project. like i should honest to god get a surf dracula tattoo at this point
Gustav on
+20
GustavFriend of GoatsSomewhere in the OzarksRegistered Userregular
edited May 31
But yeah. I think it's another problem of how literal art seems to have become. The events have to be the stories because they happen and you can see them happen. The effects of the event are nebulous and internal. That's ephemeral and spooky. Harder to write a wiki entry on the internal.
Posts
mf never saw the milk commercial???
Capitalism wins, humanity dies?
Like, if I go to the opera or the ballet, there's going to be a plot summary in my program, that's the expectation there. With Shakespeare and a lot of other older theatre too, I know I often have whoever I dragged with me asking what the plot of this one is on our way there. That's all certainly within the realm of voluntary of course, but it's a pretty standard expectation.
but i accept the war was lost when a million jackals started posting some bunk pop science articles about people liking movies better when they are spoiled ages back.
well, they were from the UK, so
this is crucial information
i absolutely do not expect anyone outside of america to know or care about some dork who never even got to be president
yeah, I wasn't surprised they didn't know (and it's not even like...much more than trivia in the US, even), but also the musical explains that he got shot and who shot him in the opening song
see this is new information to me because i have never seen hamilton
i do not trust rap music that white grandparents will willingly listen to
im honestly not sure I personally know someone who would hate Hamilton more than you
If anything, I feel like movies that I think are good are more likely to be able to stand up to having parts of them spoiled
Not for nothing but those are also older artforms, yeah?
Which kinda ties into my personal bugbear about Spoiler Culture, where it's asking a lot of folks to completely change how THEY talk about (and thus, interact with) a medium, and switch to this more recent, kinda arbitrary way, all for the sake of... This one tool in storytelling that they have fixated on?
Like, I dunno. Used to be if somebody taped the big game and they wanted to watch it, and they knew folks at the water cooler talk about the sport, they'd just... Not go up to the water cooler. Or if they're passing by a cubicle and realize the game is being discussed, they'd pick up the pace of their walk. They wouldn't loudly stand up and demand that nobody talk about the game anywhere where they can accidentally hear, unless they're... Kind of an asshole?
And now it occasionally feels as though there's this implication that it is somehow rude or immoral to discuss fictional events at a (metaphorical) volume someone else might overhear, and I just don't have it in me to take that too seriously. Don't willfully antagonize people you know are catching up on something, sure, that's just common courtesy. But normalizing "treat every fictional event as a sacrosanct ritual to be spoken of only in whispers" seems wild to me
i will never find out
i feel like every great movie has one piece of it that isn't in the trailers, be it a vibe or a moment, that will absolutely be why i love it and my "okay, so here's why you gotta see this" when selling it to other people
But I think its a really weird modern conundrum. Cause on one end it's hard not to roll your eyes at the idea that casting announcements or trailer info are spoilers. But on the other end it gets impossible to avoid the water cooler when every corner of the internet is considered the water cooler.
I will also admit that I've never fully grokked the "once I've started reading a post, I can't stop and I get accidentally spoilered" thing
Fuckin' love an excuse to stop reading a post and scroll, hell yeah, I'm gonna flyyyyyy down that page
Edit: but also, re: water cooler, agreed. Yet even the most unreasonable office mate would get a day, maybe two, MAYBE a week? But anybody going "Don't tell me about last year's Super Bowl" would be looked at... Askance.
Or even more frustrating is that everything now exists like comic marketing where reveals and shocking developments are posted in actual news sources before the episodes air or the movie's been out for all of one hour. I can find a way to make every problem in the world marketing's fault.
I'm curious what you mean by the "one tool in storytelling" you refer to here. Do you mean the plot?
That's not a new or particularly trenchant thought, but I feel like especially with serialized TV and movies the twist and/or the reveal have a tendency to become the meat itself rather than the broth it's cooked in. And it's easy to blame that on the storytellers, who should have done a better job, and that may well be true, but I think there's also something to be said towards enthusiast culture eating up everything else ahead of time. If we know everyone who is cast in a movie before it starts filming, if we read a dozen articles about who this character is in the comics, interviews and press junkets about how everyone feels about the project and what they're hoping for in the future, the ARG that shows exclusive photos, sly nods from the creators on Twitter, et cetera ad nauseum, then what else is there left? Of course those spoilers are in a headline two days later - they're the only thing that hasn't been reported on yet.
Surprise. When information is withheld and revealed is a tool in plotting, but I personally feel that the PACING on a reveal, and how well it is (or isn't) earned, on who within the story does doesn't know it's coming, is all important. The surprise itself, the secrecy, is only one tool in the box.
Can't tell you how many stories would work better if the big shocking reveal was the starting point.
The funniest thing was me realizing Hacksaw Ridge was a Christian themed film because it started showing me a bunch of trailers for God's Not Dead 7: God Kills Woke or whatever
Hacksaw Ridge, one of the few Christian movies in which a guy uses a dismembered human torso as a shield
PSN ID : DetectiveOlivaw | TWITTER | STEAM ID | NEVER FORGET
I get a little chuckle whenever I see a real strident No Spoilers Ever type ALSO complain about JJ Abrams puzzlebox shit
Like, I dunno, kinda sounds like some priorities are aligning and there are some natural consequences to what we prioritize, but what do I know
I agree with the slight caveat I think you can still ruin moments of a story without ruining the whole story. But that's some fine-tooth nitpicking on my part.
Like, I still gasp at the end of speed racer even though I’ve seen it a million times. It is emotional catharsis distilled in such a way that defies you to get used to it. It always punches me directly in the gut. To me, that’s when a movie or show or book is firing on all cylinders, in a movie’s case where the performance and editing and writing and direction and effects are all so tightly honed that you’re still stunned even when you shouldn’t be surprised.
not a huge coincidence that the reveals that don't really cheat are the ones that generally make them rewarding story beats regardless of surprise
There’s nothing to really spoil for them, it’s not a movie with any major twists or anything. It’s not that narratively challenging. You can see a lot of what is coming ahead of its happening just due to common narrative structures. They’ve seen some of the bigger referential jokes from the trailers, but there’s still some fun in not having absolutely everything described in detail. I think a lot of the first sequence would lose its effect if you’re told why jarnathan is really important to their case.
But it’s been long enough that I at least called them out on it when a movie reference started to come up in a game last week and I stopped a spoiler from leaking out.
Now you got me thinking about movies with the big reveal up front and trying to imagine how they'd play out if they tried to play coy with the reveal.
And the first one that comes to mind is Pacific Rim where they try to hide the kaiju for an hour and a half...
I often think about hitchcock's advice to writing tension. If you write a story with two people having a discussion at a table, and after fifteen minutes a bomb underneath explodes, then you've shocked someone for a moment. If you tell the audience there is a bomb under the table set to go off in 15 minutes, then you have them rapt for the duration.
Surprise is just one tool in the toolbox as you said, and way too often it seems like people view it as the only tool. All the shit about GoT just trying to shock or westworld changing the script because someone guessed the ending....if something is the natural consequence of the story and characters, let it happen! Don't shoehorn in a surprise just because the ending is expected. The thing that made the red wedding work is because it bucked genre conventions while being 100% foreseeable based on the characters and actions.
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