I was thinking about the Batman Begins sequel and what I think would be neat.
I figured that it ought to open with Heath Ledger as Jack Napier performing in a shoddy club and dying on stage. It isn't until he starts engaging in particularly harsh self-deprecating humor that he finally starts getting laughs and exits to a huge cheer. He meets his manager backstage and reveals that he wishes that he could sell other material to the audience, but it always comes back jokes about how pathetic he is. After the manager leaves, it's revealed that Jack is also taking medication for anxiety and depression.
Next scene is Jack walking through the Narrows, maybe suffering a few minor indignities along the way. Turns out that this precedes the end of Batman Begins when Jack is hit by the same fear gas from the first movie. Instead of affecting him the same way as everyone else, though, it shatters his fragile mental state as his greatest fear, that his modest successes as a comedian haven't come from his wit but rather how much people enjoy laughing at him and his sad state), are manifested as a hallucination featuring the audience from before displaying cruel, twisted Joker smiles and distorted laughter. Jack becomes inhumanly pale with fear (the hair can just be dye and part of the outfit) and, finally, breaks down into hysterical laughter himself. He passes out. (I know fear gas being his origin is lame, but please bear with me).
Naturally, he's found by the rescue crew that comes in following the aftermath of Batman Begins to deal with the damage. done by the riots. He's still hysterical when he wakes up and kills the medics while explaining that he thought he was telling jokes when he was the joke himself, a clown. Why not embrace it?
There's the requisite Joker kills people and Batman tries to stop him thing, of course, but then we get to Joker's big plan. Rather than it being something like spreading Joker gas over Gotham (too much like the fear gas thing from the last movie), it's something else. After having encountered Batman for the first time Joker has become a bit obsessed. He sees Bats as something similar to him, and perhaps the only person in a world noticeably devoid of cartoonish psychotics with whom he can relate. Batman's not quite there yet, though, and so Joker resolves to drive him completely mad (It'll give him someone to talk to and watch movies with!).
Batman, doing some actual detective work, also finds out that Joker was affected by the fear gas and theorizes that he must've gotten a concentrated dosage. In the final confrontation, he brings a stronger version of the antidote from the first movie in hopes of ending the Joker by curing him, not killing him. At the end of the fight, Bats uses the cure only to see that it has no noticeable effect whatsoever. e as Joker reiterates
The Sisterhood's traveling pants (fear gas) wasn't special (the cause of Joker's madness) at all! Rather, the magic (Joker's insanity) was inside him all along!
Joker gives an altered version of his lines from The Killing Joke, explaining that it doesn't take fancy doo-dah chemicals to create a monster like him. Rather, the potential is always there and can be released by something as minor as one really bad day (flash to young Bruce watching his parents get killed).
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Garlic Breadi'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm aRegistered User, Disagreeableregular
I like the fact that is ties into the first movie but I dislike one thing. There's no way he could turn paper white from the fear and I would hate for Joker's whiteness to be from make-up or something like that.
I'd prefer the whole thrown into chemical vat because of Batman thing.
I think it's easier to build upon established materials from a prior film in a sequel rather than completely retelling the origin from the Killing Joke which would, because it's primarily a Joker story, necessitate like a fucking half hour of a Batman vs Joker movie that offers neither Batman (save for the part where he knocks Jack Napier into chemicals which, for whatever implausible reason, turn people into clowns) nor even the Joker for that matter.
One alternative to creating something new would be to streamline the origin from Killing Joke and essentially just get to Joker getting knocked into the chemicals as quickly as possible. And, of course, he goes insane because of the chemicals too. It's more or less what happened in Tim Burton's movie, and I thought it sucked because insanity is not a super-power and there should be some basis to it beyond "I'm deformed and I'm gonna take it out on you!" Remember in Batman Beyond when Terry mocked the Joker using the same interpretation of his origin, that he was just some idiot who thought he should commit crimes because he has green hair and white skin?
The other would be to forego an origin altogether, like the comics did. While it worked for the comics, I think a movie would demand a backstory.
So, all that's left is originality. Like I said, I thought it would be better if there were a connection between the first and second films seeing as how Gordon himself alluded to there being a connection between Joker appearing in Gotham and Batman appearing in Gotham.
If none of this is an adequate response to why you think it sucked, though, then I suppose I can't disagree with you.
No no no. No Jack Napier. That ties him to "I killed your parents" 80's Joker. Note, thats not a slam on Nicholson. I dont want him tied to that pussy Begins Scarecrow either. Just give me some Killing Joke Joker and Im a happy man. Or, like you said, no origin at all.
You know what I think's funny about Heath ledger? He had an interview a while back where he was like, "Yeah I mean all the silly spandex and superheroes aren't really my bag," and came off as sort of dismissive of the source material. Which is cool, I mean superhero comics aren't everyone's thing. I just kind of wish the interviewer had just said, "So dude, uh.. you remember that before you played a mumbly gay cowboy you were best known for such classics as 10 Things I Hate About You, A Knight's Tale, where you'll remember you jousted to the tune of 'We Will Rock You', and have gone on to star in The Brothers Grimm and Lords of Dogtown right? I'm just askin' is all."
I think it's easier to build upon established materials from a prior film in a sequel rather than completely retelling the origin from the Killing Joke which would, because it's primarily a Joker story, necessitate like a fucking half hour of a Batman vs Joker movie that offers neither Batman (save for the part where he knocks Jack Napier into chemicals which, for whatever implausible reason, turn people into clowns) nor even the Joker for that matter.
One alternative to creating something new would be to streamline the origin from Killing Joke and essentially just get to Joker getting knocked into the chemicals as quickly as possible. And, of course, he goes insane because of the chemicals too. It's more or less what happened in Tim Burton's movie, and I thought it sucked because insanity is not a super-power and there should be some basis to it beyond "I'm deformed and I'm gonna take it out on you!" Remember in Batman Beyond when Terry mocked the Joker using the same interpretation of his origin, that he was just some idiot who thought he should commit crimes because he has green hair and white skin?
The other would be to forego an origin altogether, like the comics did. While it worked for the comics, I think a movie would demand a backstory.
So, all that's left is originality. Like I said, I thought it would be better if there were a connection between the first and second films seeing as how Gordon himself alluded to there being a connection between Joker appearing in Gotham and Batman appearing in Gotham.
If none of this is an adequate response to why you think it sucked, though, then I suppose I can't disagree with you.
Well I think it should take inspiration from the Killing Joke. I love your whole Jack Napier as a pill-popping comedian(I don't think Joker should have a family, at all.....maybe except for Harley.) but I would prefer him bieng thrown into a vat rather than fear gassed. Also, the chemical didn't "turn him into a clown", it bleached his skin and chlorined his hair and the pain made him go insane, which I personally like better than bieng fear-gassed and turning white from it.
I'd prefer the whole thrown into chemical vat because of Batman thing.
I don't mind that origin in comics, but I think a reaction to fear gas is a little more "realistic" (yeah, not really) than Ace Chemicals synthesizing entire vats of a chemical that only seems to turn people into clowns for unknown purposes.
Also, like I said, I don't particularly like the way Tim Burton's Batman film made it so Joker was just a gangster who got deformed and just decided to go with it. I much prefer the "all it takes is one bad day" version from the Killing Joke and would like to see it in the sequel.
Yeah, even being driven insane by pain isn't that good to me. How many times have we seen that in films?
And yeah, even Holocaust survivors don't go on killing sprees. The closest thing to being driven mad by pain that occurs in the real world (and Nolan seems to going for quasi-realism) are the people who were traumatized by 9/11 and decided to beat up anyone who looked Arab.
Therapy could also probably help someone learn to cope with past traumas through better avenues than murder as well.
No no no. No Jack Napier. That ties him to "I killed your parents" 80's Joker. Note, thats not a slam on Nicholson. I dont want him tied to that pussy Begins Scarecrow either. Just give me some Killing Joke Joker and Im a happy man. Or, like you said, no origin at all.
I thought Jack Napier was Joker's most likely original name according to DC Comics.
The way I see it, Joker's best when he isn't some man driven insane by a set of very specific circumstances. Rather, I prefer the notion that there's nothing we could have done to prevent him from becoming who he is. It presents the idea that his brand of madness and evil wasn't spawned by some kind external force acting upon him, much like the popular belief that man would be good if Satan and the media and videogames weren't constantly tempting him to do wrong. Rather, the Joker's malevolence is something inherent in humanity that cannot be stopped. No matter what we do, no matter how much we may attempt to snuff it by caging it or combat it with reason, logic, and morality, it will always escape to wreak havoc on us.
It makes him the ideal villain for Batman. Joker's the embodiment of the spirit of crime which Batman has dedicated himself to fighting and defeating, not just on a physical level but also on an ideological level. That's why Batman can't kill the Joker. If he did, the Joker will have won the ideological battle by proving that you cannot stop crime with justice and "good". Crime will always be there, and the only way to successfully end one spirit of crime is to commit a crime yourself (murder) and invite the spirit into yourself. Batman becoming what he hates would be the ultimate win for the Joker, and with each Robin he kills and humiliation of the Dark Knight he commits he edges ever closer to his final victory.
Read the entire thing and you'll see that it wasn't really the fear gas.
I was just playing on audience expectations for there to be some kind of outrageous catalyst for a madman's creation. At the end, I say that the bulk of Joker's madness was already there to begin with. It just needed to be brought to light by one bad day, in this case a day that included fear gas.
Just think of it as being reminiscent of those guys who supposedly clubbed Arabs after 9/11 because of how traumatic the event was. On a superficial level it makes sense, but the truth is that they were probably violent, vengeful bastards to begin with and simply didn't know it yet. 9/11 was their bad day.
Meanwhile, someone who was unaffected by 9/11 could chop up their fiance after catching her in bed with another man. Maybe there's something that could push you over the edge too.
The theory I'm drawing on is the one proposed by The Killing Joke, that all it takes is one bad day that really fucking gets to us. After that, anyone can be a monster.
In the end, Joker is much scarier if he isn't special but rather something that could happen to anyone, even Batman (though you could also say that Batman is the opposite of the Joker, as his bad day didn't create a monster but rather gave way to a man who has transcended nearly all his limitations).
I think the Joker in the new Batman movie should be a real clown and he's just pissed that people dont go to the circus anymore so he starts killing them. And wearing really big shoes.
I think the Joker in the new Batman movie should be a real clown and he's just pissed that people dont go to the circus anymore so he starts killing them. And wearing really big shoes.
Wow, another man-tastic idea from Hensler! You are en fuego my friend..en fuego!
The way I see it, Joker's best when he isn't some man driven insane by a set of very specific circumstances. Rather, I prefer the notion that there's nothing we could have done to prevent him from becoming who he is. It presents the idea that his brand of madness and evil wasn't spawned by some kind external force acting upon him, much like the popular belief that man would be good if Satan and the media and videogames weren't constantly tempting him to do wrong. Rather, the Joker's malevolence is something inherent in humanity that cannot be stopped. No matter what we do, no matter how much we may attempt to snuff it by caging it or combat it with reason, logic, and morality, it will always escape to wreak havoc on us.
It makes him the ideal villain for Batman. Joker's the embodiment of the spirit of crime which Batman has dedicated himself to fighting and defeating, not just on a physical level but also on an ideological level. That's why Batman can't kill the Joker. If he did, the Joker will have won the ideological battle by proving that you cannot stop crime with justice and "good". Crime will always be there, and the only way to successfully end one spirit of crime is to commit a crime yourself (murder) and invite the spirit into yourself. Batman becoming what he hates would be the ultimate win for the Joker, and with each Robin he kills and humiliation of the Dark Knight he commits he edges ever closer to his final victory.
I would really like to write an Elseworlds Bat-man some day. Of course, I would go all pulp retro-futurist noir with it, and have him more obviously like the Shadow and Doc Savage blend that he started as... It has probably been done already (JSA Liberty Files was pretty close.), but I think it could be fun.
I think the Joker in the new Batman movie should be a real clown and he's just pissed that people dont go to the circus anymore so he starts killing them. And wearing really big shoes.
Wow, another man-tastic idea from Hensler! You are en fuego my friend..en fuego!
What happened? Did he find out he's already as batshit as he could possibly be?
Yeah, i think that since he had no "hidden desires" (they're all out in the open), his personality didn't change but he got all the super-crazy Mask powers.
Thank you for drawing Robin so that he looks like a 17-18 year old boy and not an eleven year old.
Love,
Keith
Exactly.
I've seen the Joker drawn by dozens of artists, but I think Kramer has rendered an even creepier looking one, by doing so little with the face.
Great issue.
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Garlic Breadi'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm aRegistered User, Disagreeableregular
edited December 2006
Dear Marv Wolfman,
What the fuck, dude. Are they making you write terribly for Nightwing? I know DiDio wants Dick dead, so maybe he's just holding a grudge. What the fuck was this issue? I had to go back and make sure I didn't miss an issue because this one was like "what?".
What if Batman's parents didn't die, and Lex's did?
Lex Luthor, torn by grief at his parents demise, becomes a great scientist, and eventually becomes a Blue-Beetle like superhero, who is also a big Machevellian guy.
Batman, who comes to hate his parents, goes under Ra's wing.
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Garlic Breadi'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm aRegistered User, Disagreeableregular
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I figured that it ought to open with Heath Ledger as Jack Napier performing in a shoddy club and dying on stage. It isn't until he starts engaging in particularly harsh self-deprecating humor that he finally starts getting laughs and exits to a huge cheer. He meets his manager backstage and reveals that he wishes that he could sell other material to the audience, but it always comes back jokes about how pathetic he is. After the manager leaves, it's revealed that Jack is also taking medication for anxiety and depression.
Next scene is Jack walking through the Narrows, maybe suffering a few minor indignities along the way. Turns out that this precedes the end of Batman Begins when Jack is hit by the same fear gas from the first movie. Instead of affecting him the same way as everyone else, though, it shatters his fragile mental state as his greatest fear, that his modest successes as a comedian haven't come from his wit but rather how much people enjoy laughing at him and his sad state), are manifested as a hallucination featuring the audience from before displaying cruel, twisted Joker smiles and distorted laughter. Jack becomes inhumanly pale with fear (the hair can just be dye and part of the outfit) and, finally, breaks down into hysterical laughter himself. He passes out. (I know fear gas being his origin is lame, but please bear with me).
Naturally, he's found by the rescue crew that comes in following the aftermath of Batman Begins to deal with the damage. done by the riots. He's still hysterical when he wakes up and kills the medics while explaining that he thought he was telling jokes when he was the joke himself, a clown. Why not embrace it?
There's the requisite Joker kills people and Batman tries to stop him thing, of course, but then we get to Joker's big plan. Rather than it being something like spreading Joker gas over Gotham (too much like the fear gas thing from the last movie), it's something else. After having encountered Batman for the first time Joker has become a bit obsessed. He sees Bats as something similar to him, and perhaps the only person in a world noticeably devoid of cartoonish psychotics with whom he can relate. Batman's not quite there yet, though, and so Joker resolves to drive him completely mad (It'll give him someone to talk to and watch movies with!).
Batman, doing some actual detective work, also finds out that Joker was affected by the fear gas and theorizes that he must've gotten a concentrated dosage. In the final confrontation, he brings a stronger version of the antidote from the first movie in hopes of ending the Joker by curing him, not killing him. At the end of the fight, Bats uses the cure only to see that it has no noticeable effect whatsoever. e as Joker reiterates
The Sisterhood's traveling pants (fear gas) wasn't special (the cause of Joker's madness) at all! Rather, the magic (Joker's insanity) was inside him all along!
Joker gives an altered version of his lines from The Killing Joke, explaining that it doesn't take fancy doo-dah chemicals to create a monster like him. Rather, the potential is always there and can be released by something as minor as one really bad day (flash to young Bruce watching his parents get killed).
I thought it was pretty good.
The fear gas thing was ugh
How would you do it, then?
I'd prefer the whole thrown into chemical vat because of Batman thing.
One alternative to creating something new would be to streamline the origin from Killing Joke and essentially just get to Joker getting knocked into the chemicals as quickly as possible. And, of course, he goes insane because of the chemicals too. It's more or less what happened in Tim Burton's movie, and I thought it sucked because insanity is not a super-power and there should be some basis to it beyond "I'm deformed and I'm gonna take it out on you!" Remember in Batman Beyond when Terry mocked the Joker using the same interpretation of his origin, that he was just some idiot who thought he should commit crimes because he has green hair and white skin?
The other would be to forego an origin altogether, like the comics did. While it worked for the comics, I think a movie would demand a backstory.
So, all that's left is originality. Like I said, I thought it would be better if there were a connection between the first and second films seeing as how Gordon himself alluded to there being a connection between Joker appearing in Gotham and Batman appearing in Gotham.
If none of this is an adequate response to why you think it sucked, though, then I suppose I can't disagree with you.
PSN: OrneryRooster
You know what I think's funny about Heath ledger? He had an interview a while back where he was like, "Yeah I mean all the silly spandex and superheroes aren't really my bag," and came off as sort of dismissive of the source material. Which is cool, I mean superhero comics aren't everyone's thing. I just kind of wish the interviewer had just said, "So dude, uh.. you remember that before you played a mumbly gay cowboy you were best known for such classics as 10 Things I Hate About You, A Knight's Tale, where you'll remember you jousted to the tune of 'We Will Rock You', and have gone on to star in The Brothers Grimm and Lords of Dogtown right? I'm just askin' is all."
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I don't mind that origin in comics, but I think a reaction to fear gas is a little more "realistic" (yeah, not really) than Ace Chemicals synthesizing entire vats of a chemical that only seems to turn people into clowns for unknown purposes.
Also, like I said, I don't particularly like the way Tim Burton's Batman film made it so Joker was just a gangster who got deformed and just decided to go with it. I much prefer the "all it takes is one bad day" version from the Killing Joke and would like to see it in the sequel.
And yeah, even Holocaust survivors don't go on killing sprees. The closest thing to being driven mad by pain that occurs in the real world (and Nolan seems to going for quasi-realism) are the people who were traumatized by 9/11 and decided to beat up anyone who looked Arab.
Therapy could also probably help someone learn to cope with past traumas through better avenues than murder as well.
I thought Jack Napier was Joker's most likely original name according to DC Comics.
It makes him the ideal villain for Batman. Joker's the embodiment of the spirit of crime which Batman has dedicated himself to fighting and defeating, not just on a physical level but also on an ideological level. That's why Batman can't kill the Joker. If he did, the Joker will have won the ideological battle by proving that you cannot stop crime with justice and "good". Crime will always be there, and the only way to successfully end one spirit of crime is to commit a crime yourself (murder) and invite the spirit into yourself. Batman becoming what he hates would be the ultimate win for the Joker, and with each Robin he kills and humiliation of the Dark Knight he commits he edges ever closer to his final victory.
I was just playing on audience expectations for there to be some kind of outrageous catalyst for a madman's creation. At the end, I say that the bulk of Joker's madness was already there to begin with. It just needed to be brought to light by one bad day, in this case a day that included fear gas.
Just think of it as being reminiscent of those guys who supposedly clubbed Arabs after 9/11 because of how traumatic the event was. On a superficial level it makes sense, but the truth is that they were probably violent, vengeful bastards to begin with and simply didn't know it yet. 9/11 was their bad day.
Meanwhile, someone who was unaffected by 9/11 could chop up their fiance after catching her in bed with another man. Maybe there's something that could push you over the edge too.
The theory I'm drawing on is the one proposed by The Killing Joke, that all it takes is one bad day that really fucking gets to us. After that, anyone can be a monster.
In the end, Joker is much scarier if he isn't special but rather something that could happen to anyone, even Batman (though you could also say that Batman is the opposite of the Joker, as his bad day didn't create a monster but rather gave way to a man who has transcended nearly all his limitations).
Anally.
Nobody reads giant, consolidated posts. It's a fact.
With three somewhat more digestible individual helpings, I at least stand a chance of tricking someone into reading one of them.
Wow, another man-tastic idea from Hensler! You are en fuego my friend..en fuego!
PSN: OrneryRooster
This I like.
Did Batman ever show up Sandman Mystery Theater?
You just wish you'd thought of it.
Carnage would be cooler.
oh man guys what if carnage... stay with me... what if the carnage symbiote merged with the joker?!
omg dicks cumming.
Yeah, i think that since he had no "hidden desires" (they're all out in the open), his personality didn't change but he got all the super-crazy Mask powers.
He's basically a wackier Joker with invincibility and cartoon powers.
He eventually gives up the Mask because he thinks he's funnier without it.
I agree.
Thank you for drawing Robin so that he looks like a 17-18 year old boy and not an eleven year old.
Love,
Keith
P.S. jesus christ your Nightwing is ugly
Dear Freddie Williams II,
Sometimes you draw Robin at his appropriate age but also sometimes not.
Love,
Keith
P.S. What the fuck is with that star Robin is holding in his 52 "Origins"? It looks like a condom
Dear Paul Dini,
You are a good writer. How are the kids?
Love,
Keith
P.S. the ending of this Detective Comics issue seemed a little rushed/forced (specifically Batman's dialogue).
Exactly.
I've seen the Joker drawn by dozens of artists, but I think Kramer has rendered an even creepier looking one, by doing so little with the face.
Great issue.
PSN: OrneryRooster
What the fuck, dude. Are they making you write terribly for Nightwing? I know DiDio wants Dick dead, so maybe he's just holding a grudge. What the fuck was this issue? I had to go back and make sure I didn't miss an issue because this one was like "what?".
Until further notice,
Keith
What if Batman's parents didn't die, and Lex's did?
Lex Luthor, torn by grief at his parents demise, becomes a great scientist, and eventually becomes a Blue-Beetle like superhero, who is also a big Machevellian guy.
Batman, who comes to hate his parents, goes under Ra's wing.
Viltrumites.
JordynNolz.com <- All my blogs (Shepard, Wasted, J'onn, DCAU) are here now!
This, assuming that Batman's parents, good people as they were, are either overbearing or mean, in this insane alternate dimension.
They are too old and frumpy to be Viltrumites
Lex's dad was in Birthright, although I don't remember if he died during it or not