Free Palestine From the River to the Sea

Lanz · November 26

https://twitter.com/eoinhiggins_/status/1861517772020486305?s=46

Computer, show me the Biden Doctrine in one picture

https://apnews.com/live/israel-hezbollah-lebanon-ceasefire-updates#00000193-6a49-d392-a7f7-ea5f8b260000

FCD · November 26

Fucking Herbert Hoover-ass president. Just the complete blurst.

BahamutZERO · November 26

Quetzi wrote: »

Honestly I don't think either of us are necessarily the ones who need to be convinced - I'm well aware of how important it was to posters here. It's a part of the ongoing conversation with the Transition Team on creating new rules & guidelines for this place. Which like, I understand why that's frustrating, because it overall feels like something that's from outside of SE++ affecting us, though I have at least some faith in the Transition Team for pursuing this with the best of intentions, and I trust the conversations and reasoning that they reached this point with.

All that said, this might be a relevant post for you to look at over in the FSPC. I don't know if that will truly allay any of your concerns, but it is something that is being discussed at least somewhat, and not necessarily a brick wall.

Do you think if I waded into that thread and tried to make my arguments, would people listen? Or would it just inspire more fuck you types of feelings among those who feel animosity towards this part of the site and make them dig their heels in? I know I personally am unpopular among the handful of people who actually do think SE++ is the devil.

Quetzi · November 26

I'd generally urge you to make your feelings known, because I think there's a lot of value in that while we're doing this whole project. I don't know if it will move a needle one way or the other though, because it does feel like a lot of people are pretty entrenched in their opinions.

mrpaku · November 26

As someone who has never really gone in for all the intra forum drama, always thought it was all a bit overblown and exaggerated, that there couldn't possibly be that much bad vibes between the two groups despite all the shit talking

The Transition forums general tone of "SE++ is the Needlessly Contrarian sibling who just needs to Figure Out How the World Really Works and Learn to Go Along to Get Along, or They Can Move Along" sure has been a real eye opener, in terms of Mutual Respect

Local H Jay · November 26

It's funny, I used to quite like DnD, and I can't tell sometimes if it's me or DnD that changed but, at a certain point I realized they were playing debate club around issues that directly impacted my life as a low income, formerly homeless, former addict service industry worker. After I got kicked out of a few threads because I got emotional at how gross folks were being, I legit thought I was just being unreasonable for years! And then I found the SE discord and finally, felt some relief that I wasn't alone in this

FCD · November 26

It's definitely starting to feel like the transition will favor DnD over SE++, and yeah, I find that disheartening, to put it gently.

Local H Jay · November 26

I know it's just popular slang now, but I'm really sick of hearing "so and so is the main character of the thread." I got booted from the old tipping thread and the mod message in that thread was "let's give the main character a break" Because I had the balls to talk about my experience working in the service industry and how that informed my opinions, and people proceeded to dogpile me for pages and then i got booted

Shits really fucking stupid

rhylith · November 26

Accusing someone of being the main character is dickish and I hope the new moderation would see that and cut it off.

Edit: my bad I don’t think I realized what thread I was in given the conversation

DarkPrimus · November 26

AJ live feed, 5 minutes ago:

The Israeli army has again threatened to imminently attack several buildings in southern Beirut, telling residents in the vicinity to flee just hours before a ceasefire is set to take effect.

In a post on X, Israel’s Arabic-language spokesperson, Avichay Adraee, posted a map with several buildings in Beirut’s southern suburbs of Ghobeiry and Borj el-Brajneh, which he identified as targets.

He later told people to flee for their lives from Laylaki and Choueifat el-Aamroussieh.

Both sides have intensified cross-border attacks with hours left before a ceasefire takes effect.

Speed Racer · November 26

I understand why it's happening and obviously I got no authority but I would gently request that we move on from using the genocide thread to hash this stuff out

Make another thread or go talk about this stuff in the planning forum! Or take over any other thread!

But if we're gonna insist that this topic is important enough that it deserves to be pinned then we should stop gumming it up with web forum grievances

mrpaku · November 26

Apologies; there are absolutely bigger things going on than all this. It won't happen again

Solar · November 26

Speed Racer wrote: »

I understand why it's happening and obviously I got no authority but I would gently request that we move on from using the genocide thread to hash this stuff out

Make another thread or go talk about this stuff in the planning forum! Or take over any other thread!

But if we're gonna insist that this topic is important enough that it deserves to be pinned then we should stop gumming it up with web forum grievances

Totally agree, with no harshing on anyone who has posted on it at all

never die · November 27

DarkPrimus wrote: »

AJ live feed, 5 minutes ago:

The Israeli army has again threatened to imminently attack several buildings in southern Beirut, telling residents in the vicinity to flee just hours before a ceasefire is set to take effect.

In a post on X, Israel’s Arabic-language spokesperson, Avichay Adraee, posted a map with several buildings in Beirut’s southern suburbs of Ghobeiry and Borj el-Brajneh, which he identified as targets.

He later told people to flee for their lives from Laylaki and Choueifat el-Aamroussieh.

Both sides have intensified cross-border attacks with hours left before a ceasefire takes effect.

Not snark or sarcasm: is this Israel trying to get as much damage in before the ceasefire becomes official?

Incenjucar · November 27

never die wrote: »

DarkPrimus wrote: »

AJ live feed, 5 minutes ago:

The Israeli army has again threatened to imminently attack several buildings in southern Beirut, telling residents in the vicinity to flee just hours before a ceasefire is set to take effect.

In a post on X, Israel’s Arabic-language spokesperson, Avichay Adraee, posted a map with several buildings in Beirut’s southern suburbs of Ghobeiry and Borj el-Brajneh, which he identified as targets.

He later told people to flee for their lives from Laylaki and Choueifat el-Aamroussieh.

Both sides have intensified cross-border attacks with hours left before a ceasefire takes effect.

Not snark or sarcasm: is this Israel trying to get as much damage in before the ceasefire becomes official?

I doubt they'll actually stop.

Houk · November 27

yeah it's more them saying "sure you can say there's a ceasefire or whatever, we can still do whatever we want"

BlackDragon480 · November 27

Incenjucar wrote: »

never die wrote: »

DarkPrimus wrote: »

AJ live feed, 5 minutes ago:

The Israeli army has again threatened to imminently attack several buildings in southern Beirut, telling residents in the vicinity to flee just hours before a ceasefire is set to take effect.

In a post on X, Israel’s Arabic-language spokesperson, Avichay Adraee, posted a map with several buildings in Beirut’s southern suburbs of Ghobeiry and Borj el-Brajneh, which he identified as targets.

He later told people to flee for their lives from Laylaki and Choueifat el-Aamroussieh.

Both sides have intensified cross-border attacks with hours left before a ceasefire takes effect.

Not snark or sarcasm: is this Israel trying to get as much damage in before the ceasefire becomes official?

I doubt they'll actually stop.

They certainly didn't during the last "humanitarian pause* that people praised to no end last year.

Man in the Mists · November 27

From the AP News link Lanz provided at the top of the page:

Doesn't this just fill you with faith that Israel will totally not attack Lebanon, overtly or covertly, for the next two months?

Maddoc · November 27

Israel has reiterated that it reserves the right to break the ceasefire for basically whatever reason they deem appropriate.

Anzekay · November 27

So the IDF is meant to withdraw to their side of the border but are also telling people to not approach their troops in Lebanon? Is this some sort of temp thing while they withdraw or are they gonna keep telling them that???

Man in the Mists · November 27

Sounds to me like they want time for that abandoned area to soften up so it'll be easier to take the second this "cease-fire" ends.

Kelor · November 27

Anzekay wrote: »

So the IDF is meant to withdraw to their side of the border but are also telling people to not approach their troops in Lebanon? Is this some sort of temp thing while they withdraw or are they gonna keep telling them that???

While Israel might have killed off Hezbollah's leadership the IDF has been taking a lot of casualties since invading Lebanon. The latest figures I could find go up to the end of October and use official IDF numbers, although the opposition leader appears to question these.

Israel invaded on the 1st of October.

Keeping in mind these figures show the combined casualties of Lebanon and Gaza over that time, but you see daily reports of Israeli soldiers dying in Hezbollah ambushes.

It turns out fighting a large well equipped and trained group is much harder than the massacre of civilians.

Israel has mostly just been bombing Lebanon since in a similar fashion to Gaza, causing mass civilian casualties.

Israel has recorded its worst month for military deaths this year amid continuing fierce fighting in southern Lebanon and northern Gaza.

At least 62 soldiers have been killed since the start of October, according to official figures, making this the deadliest month for the Israeli military since last December when 110 soldiers were killed at the height of its war against Hamas in Gaza.

It also marks a steep increase in recorded fatalities compared with recent months. Just nine deaths were recorded by the Israeli military in September, and 63 in total between June and August.

At least 35 Israeli soldiers have been killed in southern Lebanon or on the Lebanese border since Israel invaded its northern neighbour at the start of the month in an escalation of its war against Hezbollah. The Lebanese militant group has said it has killed more than 90 Israeli soldiers, although these figures are unverified.

New figures released this week by the Israeli military’s rehabilitation department also appear to suggest a recent increase in the number of wounded soldiers requiring medical treatment. On Tuesday, it said it had received 910 soldiers wounded this month in Lebanon.

Information about casualties is tightly controlled in Israel where the media is subjected to strict military censorship. That has led some to question whether official figures may be under-reporting the real scale of losses suffered by Israeli forces in Gaza and Lebanon.

In an interview on Channel 12 on Monday, opposition leader Yair Lapid said that 890 soldiers had been killed and 11,000 injured since 7 October last year.

“There are limits to how much we accept the alternative facts,” Lapid said.

Defending his own figures, although without citing a source, Lapid referred to Israeli hospitals where wounded soldiers are being treated: “If you have doubts about this figure go to Tel Hashomer, go to Ichilov, go to Rambam, go the rehabilitation departments.”

People in the region don't particularly like Hezbollah, for a litany of reasons, but their ability to fight Israel isn't doubted.

Israel's goal at the moment appears to be to return it's focus to the genocide in Gaza and has made some ominous comments regarding turning it's attention to Iran later on.

Man in the Mists · November 27

Well that didn't take long at all!

Lanz · November 27

Man in the Mists wrote: »

Well that didn't take long at all!

Aside from the astonishingly short Ceasefire to Back ot Fighting record set, reminds me of how there’s a story from 2005 circulating again about how an IDF soldier was found innocent for killing a thirteen year old girl in Rafah, then riddling her corpse with bullets to ensure she was dead, when she too got too close to a “restricted area”

Mind you, there was no question that he killed her dead and riddled her corpse with bullets.

They just decided he was in the clear for doing that.

They also argued they’d have done the same to a three year old.

EDIT: Again, this was twenty years ago. Nothing has meaningfully changed. Nothing has gotten better, and if anything things appear to just be getting worse:

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2005/nov/16/israel2

An Israeli army officer who fired the entire magazine of his automatic rifle into a 13-year-old Palestinian girl and then said he would have done the same even if she had been three years old was acquitted on all charges by a military court yesterday.

The soldier, who has only been identified as "Captain R", was charged with relatively minor offences for the killing of Iman al-Hams who was shot 17 times as she ventured near an Israeli army post near Rafah refugee camp in Gaza a year ago.
The manner of Iman's killing, and the revelation of a tape recording in which the captain is warned that she was just a child who was "scared to death", made the shooting one of the most controversial since the Palestinian intifada erupted five years ago even though hundreds of other children have also died.

After the verdict, Iman's father, Samir al-Hams, said the army never intended to hold the soldier accountable.
"They did not charge him with Iman's murder, only with small offences, and now they say he is innocent of those even though he shot my daughter so many times," he said. "This was the cold-blooded murder of a girl. The soldier murdered her once and the court has murdered her again. What is the message? They are telling their soldiers to kill Palestinian children."

The military court cleared the soldier of illegal use of his weapon, conduct unbecoming an officer and perverting the course of justice by asking soldiers under his command to alter their accounts of the incident.

Capt R's lawyers argued that the "confirmation of the kill" after a suspect is shot was a standard Israeli military practice to eliminate terrorist threats.

Following the verdict, Capt R burst into tears, turned to the public benches and said: "I told you I was innocent."

The army's official account said that Iman was shot for crossing into a security zone carrying her schoolbag which soldiers feared might contain a bomb. It is still not known why the girl ventured into the area but witnesses described her as at least 100 yards from the military post which was in any case well protected.

A recording of radio exchanges between Capt R and his troops obtained by Israeli television revealed that from the beginning soldiers identified Iman as a child.

In the recording, a soldier in a watchtower radioed a colleague in the army post's operations room and describes Iman as "a little girl" who was "scared to death". After soldiers first opened fire, she dropped her schoolbag which was then hit by several bullets establishing that it did not contain explosive. At that point she was no longer carrying the bag and, the tape revealed, was heading away from the army post when she was shot.

Although the military speculated that Iman might have been trying to "lure" the soldiers out of their base so they could be attacked by accomplices, Capt R made the decision to lead some of his troops into the open. Shortly afterwards he can be heard on the recording saying that he has shot the girl and, believing her dead, then "confirmed the kill".

"I and another soldier ... are going in a little nearer, forward, to confirm the kill ... Receive a situation report. We fired and killed her ... I also confirmed the kill. Over," he said.

Palestinian witnesses said they saw the captain shoot Iman twice in the head, walk away, turn back and fire a stream of bullets into her body.

On the tape, Capt R then "clarifies" to the soldiers under his command why he killed Iman: "This is commander. Anything that's mobile, that moves in the [security] zone, even if it's a three-year-old, needs to be killed."

At no point did the Israeli troops come under attack.

The prosecution case was damaged when a soldier who initially said he had seen Capt R point his weapon at the girl's body and open fire later told the court he had fabricated the story.

Capt R claimed that he had not fired the shots at the girl but near her. However, Dr Mohammed al-Hams, who inspected the child's body at Rafah hospital, counted numerous wounds. "She has at least 17 bullets in several parts of the body, all along the chest, hands, arms, legs," he told the Guardian shortly afterwards. "The bullets were large and shot from a close distance. The most serious injuries were to her head. She had three bullets in the head. One bullet was shot from the right side of the face beside the ear. It had a big impact on the whole face."

The army's initial investigation concluded that the captain had "not acted unethically". But after some of the soldiers under his command went to the Israeli press to give a different version, the military police launched a separate investigation after which he was charged.

Capt R claimed that the soldiers under his command were out to get him because they are Jewish and he is Druze.

Lanz · November 27

Correspondent for Israeli’s public broadcaster Kann:

https://twitter.com/amichaistein1/status/1861722028258029641?s=46

So much for international law!

Satsumomo · November 27

So would France arrest Putin or not?

Magell · November 27

Love how all the big countries are like we can't enforce this rule, what if we want to do war crimes in the future?

never die · November 27

Lanz wrote: »

Correspondent for Israeli’s public broadcaster Kann:

https://twitter.com/amichaistein1/status/1861722028258029641?s=46

So much for international law!

...Haven't they literally tried people who lead/were major figures of a country that were not a part of the ICC in the past?

Lanz · November 27

https://twitter.com/craigmokhiber/status/1861765233234080026?s=46

Lanz · November 27

Of course the whole reality of this is “international law” is only as enforceable as the most powerful nations willingness to do so.

And we have a nation that is largely backed and abetted by the dominant superpower on the planet (totally not imperial mind you! Definitely and certainly not somehow imperial despite, you know, all this influence and ability to inflict consequence on nations who step out of line)* who is largely interested in “no Israel gets to do whatever it wants for whatever reason it wants.”

*

this is sarcasm

FCD · November 27

"The powerful do as they wish, and the weak suffer what they must." Thousands of years, and ain't nothing changed. Shit sucks.

DarkPrimus · November 27

NBC News has a mutimedia investigative report about Israel's campaign of destruction in Lebanon, entitled "Zone of Destruction"

When Israel launched its invasion of southern Lebanon in September, it publicly set narrow goals for the operation: “limited, localized,” with “targeted ground raids” aimed at stopping cross-border fire and degrading Hezbollah’s command structure.

But an NBC News investigation found that the Israel Defense Forces have created a zone of widespread destruction along Lebanon’s border with Israel — destroying 42% of the buildings in the areas it has seized. To reach these findings, NBC News verified soldiers’ social media posts and examined satellite images as well as Sentinel-1 satellite radar data provided by Corey Scher of the CUNY Graduate Center and Jamon Van Den Hoek of Oregon State University.

In nearly every town in southern Lebanon the IDF has occupied, soldiers have posted videos of demolitions. Here, an IDF combat engineering unit detonates explosives in the hilltop village of Mhaibib.

The damage is total — nearly 90% of the village is destroyed.

The article is full of infographics and embedded images that alter themselves as new information is introduced, such as the ability to view satellite images of Mhaibib before and after the Israeli occupation and destruction, before moving along the map of Lebanon to the village of Aya ash Shebab, again with more satellite imagery.

FANTOMAS · November 28

Regarding the ceasefire, this part of the BBC article makes me think Israel is not coming to the table in good faith.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cx2d3gj9ewxo

"Prime Minister Netanyahu said on Tuesday night that Israel would “maintain full freedom of military action” in Lebanon “with the United States' full understanding”.

“If Hezbollah violates the agreement and tries to arm itself, we will attack. If it tries to rebuild terrorist infrastructure near the border, we will attack. If it launches a rocket, if it digs a tunnel, if it brings in a truck carrying rockets, we will attack,” he asserted.

Biden supported that view, telling reporters: "If Hezbollah or anyone else breaks the deal and poses a direct threat to Israel, then Israel retains the right to self-defence consistent with international law."

But Lebanese officials said they would oppose any violations of Lebanon’s sovereignty."

There are so many points in there for Israel to manufacture a reason to continue attacking, and the US will 100% cover for them.

Kelor · November 28

As heavy bombing of Gaza continues after the Lebanon-Israel ceasefire agreement, UNICEF has issued a warning that thousands of Palestinian children need to be evacuated due to starvation.

UNICEF says 2,500 children in Gaza need urgent medical evacuation

Spokesman Kazem Abu-Khalaf for the UN’s children’s relief fund says that 2,500 children in the Gaza Strip need urgent medical evacuation.

“30 percent of children in the Gaza Strip suffer from severe malnutrition,” he said in a media statement.

Meanwhile, 95 percent of the schools that house displaced people in the Gaza Strip have been “completely destroyed”, Abu-Khalaf said.

He added: “The situation in the northern Gaza Strip is extremely difficult, and tragic, and is getting worse.”

Lanz · November 28

https://twitter.com/haaretzcom/status/1861819578126328075?s=46

Israel's Knesset advances bill to limit Arab participation in local elections

Israel's Knesset advances bill to limit Arab participation in local elections
***
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-11-27/ty-article/.premium/israels-knesset-advances-bill-to-limit-arab-participation-in-local-elections/00000193-6db3-db73-afff-fdbbb36f0000

🧵2/6
Israel's Knesset approved in a preliminary reading on Wednesday an amendment to a law that would make it easier to disqualify Arab candidates from running in municipal elections

🧵3/6
The amendment expands the criteria for barring candidates or lists if they have expressed support, through actions or statements, for an armed struggle by an enemy state or terrorist organization against Israel

🧵4/6
The bill, introduced by Likud MK Hanoch Milwidsky, passed with 51 votes in favor and 11 against

🧵5/6
The amendment also proposes a mechanism to remove sitting municipal council members who are determined by the local council to have supported an armed struggle against Israel

🧵6/6
Such removals would require a 75 percent majority vote by council members, including 10 percent of the opposition, as well as approval from the High Court of Justice

DarkPrimus · November 28

So much for "the only democracy in the Middle East"

FANTOMAS · November 29

Also, Free Palestine from the river to the sea.

Kadith · November 29

The Lebanon cease fire is going great according to AJ

BahamutZERO · November 29

Shocked, shocked to discover israel lied about a ceasefire

Sweeney Tom · November 29

https://theintercept.com/2024/11/29/biden-climate-funding-palestine/

The Biden administration is withholding funds from the Climate Justice Alliance, a federal grantee that has spoken out about Palestine and in support of a ceasefire in Gaza.

Quick Links

Free Palestine From the River to the Sea

Posts

Penny Arcade

Free Palestine From the River to the Sea

Posts