For Vector being a crossover I have absolutley no idea whats crossing over in it. And the artist needs to be fired, STAT.
Haven't read the new issue but my impression was that it wasn't so much a "crossover" as a story that continues across the 4 different titles/time periods.
New Avengers #39
SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS
Please don’t read this until after you have read the issue.
Now that the book is out, I'll explain my thought
process and intentions behind this, and you can consider
for your self beyond that. I couldn't comment on this
in the same detail before without spoiling some
reveals in Brian's story.
Ok, again… Spoilers. Everyone has read the issue right?
When Daredevil appears in this story, he is actually a Shape-mimicking skrull. I've drawn Daredevil before, but I have not drawn him as a Skrull before. Instead of just drawing a normal Daredevil in the story , I thought I could create an eerie hint of his skrull-ness in the image of him that may not be apparent immediately, but in the context of reading the story, after you see the reveal of DD as a skrull ,you may turn back and get it.
I thought it would be a subversive storytelling device to make each image of Daredevil based on an image of the actual Daredevil drawn in DD by DD artists. He'll look like DD but in the back of your mind you kind of think something is a little strange here. He's stiffer, he's smiling at the wrong
time...maybe in the back of your mind he's more like a mimic of the Daredevil you are used to seeing instead of the actual Daredevil comfortable in his own skin. That’s why I started with that iconic cover image of DD and even telegraphed it by using the similar buildings. You don't necessarily pick up on this immediately in the story, but maybe he seems to act and look a little off...and then when the reveal happens and you go back
and re-read the story, it dawns on you. That wasn't Daredevil at all, it was a copy of him. And that’s one of the reasons, I couldn’t speak on this until the issue came out.
When I came up with this I thought I was being clever
in the story.
And I did not realize that the page with DD was going
to be up on promo before the story as a whole was out,
where that realization of DD as a copy would happen
before the entire DD scene was read.
This was sort of like in the first DD story that Brian
and I did, Wake Up, where the first issue of that
story is the first issue to come after Joe Quesada's
run on the series.
And the first scene of the book, is drawn to look
as though Joe Quesada drew it… but just a little off. And
then more progressively so, until we see that version
of DD is a comic book play of Daredevil happening
within a child's imagination. And then the book cuts
into a contrasting painted scene.
And that was what I thought was a high concept
key to the art approach in this entire issue for me. That
when this skrull is in human form, it is always an
emulation of something else, but just a little off
of the authentic version in a way that isn't
immediately apparent visually but just feels eerie.
I wasn't going to be drawing the actual skrull in
skrull form in this issue, so I thought this would be
a clever and fun way to approach the alien-ness of it...as well as the
mimickry of the creature.
The Skrull would automatically turn into parts of
Wolverine when Wolverine attacked it. It would at
times exhibit features of Cyclops , and Nightcrawler,
and the Human Torch, or Firestar.
So I set about with that idea in mind, to try to draw the figure
of the character as referenced from some of my
favorite creators as well. Something that encrypted a
built-in kind of mimicry and familiarity into the
creature's body language.
I had done something like this with Echo in all of the
projects I had done before. Here are two characters,
the skrull and Echo battling and each of their talents
is to mimic the body language and skills of others.
When I first wrote Echo in Daredevil: Parts of a Hole
with Joe Quesada drawing, I asked Joe to always draw
Echo's figure mimicking the figures and body language
of Daredevil and Bullseye, or whoever she was copying
in the story. I asked him in the script to give her
the exact same figure stance copied off of the
Daredevil figure that she was emulating.
In the Echo story that I drew later, I drew Echo in
all of the styles of master artists through out history.
I showed her absorbing their styles into her own, and
it becoming part of her, and then literally drew or
painted her in the iconic images and styles of those
artists as a part of the story telling.
In this issue I was returning to the character, but
she was now an Avenger. A member of a super team, and
around a variety of super hero characters with a
multitude of abilities.
So I wanted her to be visually different this time. I
wanted her body language to feel colored by the
accents of all the other styles and super moves that
she would have absorbed. Where I had painted her
realistically before and drawn and painted her as a
variety of iconic fine art imagery throughout the ages
that she had absorbed, I now wanted to embrace the
comic book super hero aspect of her, and draw her in a
kind of iconic comic book style and figures. I didn't
want it to be overly glaring at first, but something
that would seem absorbed into her and that you would
catch after the fact. So, like I drew her in
references from my favorite fine art masters in the
past, I referenced her from some of my favorite comic
book artists in this story.
This was my intention in this issue, and I thought it
would give an undercurrent of paranoia as well in the
story as much of this storyline is about identitiy and
paranoia of who is a copy of a human and who is not.
So I even encrypted some of this in Wolverine and
Hawkeye in the story to add to that paranoia and questions of identity.
Again, something that is not necessarily cartoonish or
glaring, but that comes through subconsciously or even
consciously on a re-read.
Any of you who are familiar with my body of work know
that I try to cultivate different visual looks for
each of the projects and storylines that I do. And I
often make experimental or unconventional choices in the story
approach. In particular, I’ve been friends with Adam Hughes and his girlfriend Allison for many years, and gave them a heads up about this idea, and they seemed to get a kick out of it, and they know I’m not trying to build a career on the look of another artist.
This is what I thought was a kind of high concept
approach to this issue and I thought I was doing
something interesting and really embracing the comic
book super hero history and aspect of things, specific
to this issue, which is quite different from my usual
approach.
Believe me it wasn't easy, and was actually more time
consuming and meticulous than I imagined or than it
would have been to just draw from the hip, or from any
of my own photo reference without doing this idea.
Anyone who has been reading my current Kabuki: The
Alchemy story knows I can draw on my own, and do it in
a variety of ways in service to the story.
That said, this is just me expressing to you my
intention and idea behind the issue. That doesn't
mean it was a successful venture or idea. I didn't
count on the preview page with DD coming out before
the issue as a whole, or that I’d screw up on the cover and redo it, which perhaps allowed the idea to backfire on me. And you may not even like the
idea or see any conceptual merit in it. And at this point, I cannot help but to think that it was an idea that was better left in my head than in reality. But it was me
continuing with the approach to the Echo story that I
had before and building on that, and a sort of love
letter story device to some of my favorite artists in
super hero comics, the way previous Echo stories were
to what are considered the fine artists. Besides the
artists named already, you'll find all kinds of art
quirks in that story from Kirby to Quesada.
I didn't mean to rub anyone the wrong way with this approach and I didn't mean for this to be a conversation that distracted from Brian's story.
When in fact, I tried to tell the story as clearly as
I could and tried to embrace a storytelling that
readers of this series would enjoy and be comfortable
with, and the rest of my concept was intended as a
kind of subtext to that.
Oh come the fuck on. People are actually buying Mack's bullshit excuse for his hackery?
1) He's been caught stealing from magazine covers and movie stills.
2) He reused a bunch of the lifted art in NA #39 across multiple panels.
3) His explanation makes no fucking sense. Echo looks and moves exactly like Gen 13's Rainmaker because of her powers? Come the fuck on! If she was mimicking the poses and movements of characters in previous arcs (e.g. taking a fall like Elektra, leaping like Spider Woman, etc.) I could almost buy it, but his excuse is bullshit of the highest order.
4) He lied about contacting Adam Hughes and his girlfriend/manager and letting them know what he was planning to do.
All this tells me that he's not some creative genius that decided to work in some clever Easter eggs for fans to discover. It tells me he's a fucking lazy hack that should get blacklisted until he learns to do his own fucking work. I mean, look at this shit.
No, I said he was a lazy hack. I'm aware of Mack's Kabuki and past work. I think he's either just a lazy artist with a lightbox, or he's been doing this for a long time and is only now getting caught, due to the ease of tracking down source material through the internet.
Well, given that everything I've seen from Mack has been great. (And I enjoyed the art in this issue). And that the DD stuff came across to me (especially the Maleev one) I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.
Mack also has a reputation for using a wide variety of non-traditional storytelling techniques in his art(Check out Kabuki or his Daredevil story he did with Bendis), so again it's not too far-fetched to me that he thought this up.
Balefuego on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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Bloods EndBlade of TyshallePunch dimensionRegistered Userregular
edited March 2008
I knew there was a reason I liked Munch.
Other than when I read his posts it sounds like he is voiced by John Munch.
Bloods End on
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Sars_BoyRest, You Are The Lightning.Registered Userregular
edited March 2008
I gotta agree with Munch here.
I know Mack can do his own stuff, but this whole thing just comes off as lazy.
Though I sort of hate to bring this back up, it's now been revealed that Mack stole Alan Davis' work as well. And since things he copied from Davis include Wolverine and a building, his previous excuse really doesn't hold water.
Mack said that he tried to draw Skrullverinecho in the style of some of his favorite artists, as he did Echo, in order to convey their tendency to mimic what they see. Which is still kind of bullshit, but assuming you buy into his excuse, it's sort of semi-plausible. But he copied Alan Davis for non-Skrull Wolverine, who would have zero reason to be aping superhero poses. I'm also pretty sure the building he copied isn't a Skrull. Even though that would be sort of cool.
Honestly, if he'd just come out and say, "Hey, I'm sorry and I fucked up," it wouldn't be such a big deal. Or if all the artists he copied would have gotten a share of the profits, or even a, "With thanks to Hughes, Maleev, and Davis," in the credits would have been a nice show of good will. But it seems like he just wants to cover his ass and offer excuses rather than apologies.
This was my intention in this issue, and I thought it
would give an undercurrent of paranoia as well in the
story as much of this storyline is about identitiy and
paranoia of who is a copy of a human and who is not. So I even encrypted some of this in Wolverine and
Hawkeye in the story to add to that paranoia and questions of identity.
Again, something that is not necessarily cartoonish or
glaring, but that comes through subconsciously or even
consciously on a re-read.
Posts
Well, I'm convinced! Thanks, Keith.
Haven't read the new issue but my impression was that it wasn't so much a "crossover" as a story that continues across the 4 different titles/time periods.
thats a dick thing to do.
Here is what Mack says (heavy spoilers for the issue)
1) He's been caught stealing from magazine covers and movie stills.
2) He reused a bunch of the lifted art in NA #39 across multiple panels.
3) His explanation makes no fucking sense. Echo looks and moves exactly like Gen 13's Rainmaker because of her powers? Come the fuck on! If she was mimicking the poses and movements of characters in previous arcs (e.g. taking a fall like Elektra, leaping like Spider Woman, etc.) I could almost buy it, but his excuse is bullshit of the highest order.
4) He lied about contacting Adam Hughes and his girlfriend/manager and letting them know what he was planning to do.
All this tells me that he's not some creative genius that decided to work in some clever Easter eggs for fans to discover. It tells me he's a fucking lazy hack that should get blacklisted until he learns to do his own fucking work. I mean, look at this shit.
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I just think lazy assholes like Mack and Land are an insult to actual artists that do their own work.
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I'm guessing yes if you think he is an untalented hack who can only trace reference material.
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https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
Mack also has a reputation for using a wide variety of non-traditional storytelling techniques in his art(Check out Kabuki or his Daredevil story he did with Bendis), so again it's not too far-fetched to me that he thought this up.
Other than when I read his posts it sounds like he is voiced by John Munch.
I know Mack can do his own stuff, but this whole thing just comes off as lazy.
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Honestly, if he'd just come out and say, "Hey, I'm sorry and I fucked up," it wouldn't be such a big deal. Or if all the artists he copied would have gotten a share of the profits, or even a, "With thanks to Hughes, Maleev, and Davis," in the credits would have been a nice show of good will. But it seems like he just wants to cover his ass and offer excuses rather than apologies.
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Still, I've said my piece on the subject, so I'm just going to quit talking about it now, since any more debate would be pretty pointless.
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because damn