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This week's moments: 4/16/08

135

Posts

  • wirehead26wirehead26 Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Wasn't Atlantis supposed to be the same way? Super technology and prosperity but the citizens were dicks?

    wirehead26 on
    I'M NOT FINISHED WITH YOU!!!
  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    wirehead26 wrote: »
    Wasn't Atlantis supposed to be the same way? Super technology and prosperity but the citizens were dicks?

    It makes a bit more sense when both parties are different species and the head of the nation in question isn't a superhero.

    Robos A Go Go on
  • mattharvestmattharvest Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    wirehead26 wrote: »
    Wasn't Atlantis supposed to be the same way? Super technology and prosperity but the citizens were dicks?

    In fairness (and anyone familiar with my posting history knows how I loathe Wakanda and BP), Atlantis is not only inhabited by a different species, it's also geographically isolated from every other culture. In stark contrast, Wakanda is literally surrounded by nations of poverty, illness and suffering who are the same species.

    Of course, Atlantis is imperial - seeking to conquer the land, Wakanda appears to be purely isolationist.

    Both are loathsome, but Wakanda more so for the lack of any actual basis for separating themselves from their neighbors.

    mattharvest on
  • TransporterTransporter Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    wirehead26 wrote: »
    Wasn't Atlantis supposed to be the same way? Super technology and prosperity but the citizens were dicks?

    In fairness (and anyone familiar with my posting history knows how I loathe Wakanda and BP), Atlantis is not only inhabited by a different species, it's also geographically isolated from every other culture. In stark contrast, Wakanda is literally surrounded by nations of poverty, illness and suffering who are the same species.

    Of course, Atlantis is imperial - seeking to conquer the land, Wakanda appears to be purely isolationist.

    Both are loathsome, but Wakanda more so for the lack of any actual basis for separating themselves from their neighbors.

    Besides, Atlantis is basically the capital of the entire goddamn ocean. Namor has no intrest in conquering the surface world, he just wants it to stay the fuck away from the Ocean, and if they don't...well...he'll conquer it.

    But yeah Wakanda is kind of a dick.

    Transporter on
  • CrimsondudeCrimsondude Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    So Wakanda, the most advanced and wealthy nation in Africa is populated entirely by Xenophobic racist dickholes. Gee you couldn't cut through the irony in that place with a machete.

    Yeah, but at least it's not alone among African countries full of or run by racist xenophobes.

    Crimsondude on
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Wakanda's basis for extreme isolationism boils down to protecting the sacred mound of Vibranium and the fact that they've been fending off attacks from outsiders since the beginning of their kingdom. I don't even think it's fair to call them racist, because they really don't trust non-Wakandans in general (see the Priest run for examples of that). They're xenophobes and Wakandan supremacists, and part of this attitude stems from their religion. This is more or less the cultural battle that T'Challa's been fighting most of his life, trying to open up his nation to the rest of the world.

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
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  • psycojesterpsycojester Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    So basically they're isolationist because they have a protectionist economy based around Vibranium mining?

    psycojester on
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  • LanglyLangly Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    So basically they're isolationist because they have a protectionist economy based around Vibranium mining?

    I always thought it was because they feel it's their ethic responsibility to keep vibranium away from everyone else. Like, it wraps up into their religion in some way or something. Kind of like the situation in the Savage Lands (I think it's vibranium there as well?).

    Langly on
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    They're isolationists because every outsider seems to want to come and conquer them and/or take their resources. They see themselves as culturally and morally superior to outsiders, and see outside influences on their culture as something to shun or avoid. They don't totally hold the outside world in disdain, though, because they still send their best and brightest out into the world to learn and act as cultural ambassadors. As for the vibranium, given their advanced scientific knowledge, they are keenly aware of how valuable this resource is and exactly how it would be put to use by outsiders, so they very carefully control how much of it gets out into the world.

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
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  • AlgertmanAlgertman Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Sounds like communist China.

    Algertman on
  • CrimsondudeCrimsondude Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Complete with an ass-fucked neighbor of a country looking at them for any shred of support to keep their world from collapsing around them.

    Crimsondude on
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Algertman wrote: »
    Sounds like communist China.

    But without the communism and the overcrowding.

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
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  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    And human rights abuse.

    And really, by that point, it stops being China.

    Robos A Go Go on
  • DouglasDangerDouglasDanger PennsylvaniaRegistered User regular
    edited April 2008
    I really want to see a miniseries showing what 616 Marvel human society should be like, given the level of technology presented in various comics, like the Fantastic Four and Iron Man and Black Panther.

    DouglasDanger on
  • psycojesterpsycojester Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    They don't totally hold the outside world in disdain, though, because they still send their best and brightest out into the world to learn and act as cultural ambassadors.

    So they refuse to contribute and share with the rest of the world. but are still happy to profit from their advances...... I really want to see a series where Wakanda gets owned by a virulent plague and destroyed by a powerful enemy, and the rest of the world just laughs at them when they request aid. Seriously fuck you Wakanda, you self-absorbed arseholes.

    psycojester on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Dr. ChaosDr. Chaos Post nuclear nuisance Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Yeah, T'challa isn't exactly helping matters in his country, he was right about the Illuminati and Civil War but other than that, I have no idea what the fuck he's been thinking lately.

    Dr. Chaos on
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  • psycojesterpsycojester Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Well there's the solution then, the entire country of Wakanda has been replaced with skrulls.

    psycojester on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • WildcatWildcat Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    I really want to see a miniseries showing what 616 Marvel human society should be like, given the level of technology presented in various comics, like the Fantastic Four and Iron Man and Black Panther.

    Don't hold your breath.

    Wildcat on
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Right, psycojester, calm down a bit. Wakanda has helped people outside the country. My understanding is that they do send humanitarian aid out; most recently we saw Storm and T'Challa bringing prosthetic limbs for kids who'd been hurt in mining in an unnamed African country. In Priest's run, Wakanda paid for, hosted, and secured refugees in camps just outside the Wakandan border.

    As for what T'Challa is up to, he is, as usual, getting mixed up in outsider affairs, much to the displeasure of his people.

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
    Twitter - @liberaltruths | Google+ - http://gplus.to/wwtMask | Occupy Tallahassee
  • SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Fuck Warren Ellis Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    How is Wakanda able to set up refugee camps outside of it's own borders?


    edit: not to mention that is still kind of dickish. It's like inviting a hobo in from off the streets and then saying, "Uh, you can sleep in the shed..."

    SatanIsMyMotor on
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Yes, well, they don't allow outsiders in their country if they can help it. But, you know, since they didn't let anyone in the country, it totally negates the fact that they provided security for the camps and financed them as well. And I believe they were able to set up the camps due to civil strife in the country and the fact that no one could really stop them from doing so.

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
    Twitter - @liberaltruths | Google+ - http://gplus.to/wwtMask | Occupy Tallahassee
  • SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Fuck Warren Ellis Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Regardless, "They don't allow outsiders in their country" is not really a valid argument for how they aren't elitist and, for lack of a better term, dickish.

    SatanIsMyMotor on
  • psycojesterpsycojester Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    So Wakanda is a country of dicks being governed by a nice bloke?

    Edit: Only saw the bottom of page 4 :P

    It seems that as a vastly technologically superior country in driving distance of these war torn nations that Wakanda would probably be in a very good position to step into some of these conflicts and either

    A: end them or B: provide some kind of officiating/heavy stick presence that stops the kind of atrocities that happen from happening.

    psycojester on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    What's fun is that I wasn't arguing that at all. They are xenophobic and Wakanda-centric. They guard their culture and secrets and power very carefully. I do not, however, believe that it means that the entire country is populated by assholes.

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
    Twitter - @liberaltruths | Google+ - http://gplus.to/wwtMask | Occupy Tallahassee
  • psycojesterpsycojester Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Yeah its just a lot of fun to argue the position of "Wakanda: Land of Arseholes"

    psycojester on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • DouglasDangerDouglasDanger PennsylvaniaRegistered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Wildcat wrote: »
    I really want to see a miniseries showing what 616 Marvel human society should be like, given the level of technology presented in various comics, like the Fantastic Four and Iron Man and Black Panther.

    Don't hold your breath.

    Fantastic Four Big Town will never be printed. :(

    DouglasDanger on
  • WildcatWildcat Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    And it's a real shame. :(

    Wildcat on
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Wildcat, your avatar is great. Where is that from anyway?

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
    Twitter - @liberaltruths | Google+ - http://gplus.to/wwtMask | Occupy Tallahassee
  • WildcatWildcat Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Thanks, Mask - it's from the back-up 'hey kids, science!!' strip in Power Pack: Day One from a week or two ago. Mass Master was demonstrating Moon gravity by jumping all over the place, hence depressed Hulk in the background.

    Wildcat on
  • mattharvestmattharvest Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    wwtMask wrote: »
    What's fun is that I wasn't arguing that at all. They are xenophobic and Wakanda-centric. They guard their culture and secrets and power very carefully. I do not, however, believe that it means that the entire country is populated by assholes.

    Fascinating bit of cognitive dissonance you've got going there: if you're xenophobic, you're an asshole. Period. That's all you even need to talk about.

    If you're a culture that is not only xenophobic but proud of your xenophobia, so much so that you intentionally inculcate it into your youth (as opposed to being unconsciously xenophobic, like many real-world people and cultures are) you're a culture of assholes, who are proud to be assholes.

    The simple problem w/ Wakanda is this: they have the resources (economic and otherwise) to help the entire world (medicines, productive capacity, etc.) and they choose to not share any of it (except for a pet project, like shipping a small batch of un-reproducible prosthetics to one group of kids). It's their right to hoard their resources, but it doesn't negate that they're bad people.

    Of course, this same logic applies to all the superscientists in comics, e.g. Stark, Richards, etc., in that their decision not to solve the world's problems is just unforgivable. That said, we don't have stories where Stark, Richards, etc. pretend it's morally defensible to not share their technology with the world. And, when you get down to it, at least Stark, Richards, etc. are doing something to help the world with their superheroics, while T'Challa is only concerned with his nation. Even as you present him here (a forgiving depiction to be sure), T'Challa is someone with the power to force Wakanda to start actually doing good, but instead he opts to just engage in individual, chump-change gifts instead of making any systemic improvements.

    Personally, I think T'Challa is the worst of them all: he thinks he's better than the Wakandans in general, and denies his own failure to help. At least the rest of Wakanda admits their motivations and feelings.

    mattharvest on
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    I disagree that the Wakandan people are bad people. It is bad that they're xenophobes, but not indefensible given their history of having almost all bad experiences with outsiders. There's no indication that they're necessarily proud of being xenophobic, but there is every indication that deep mistrust of outsiders is part and parcel of Wakandan culture. You see pride in xenophobia, but I see them reinforcing a part of their culture that has directly affected their ability to stay free and unconquered. The problem is that, from our perspective at least, this lack of tolerance is destructive, but from their perspective it is not, and from the stability of their society, it would appear to be true, at least where their nation is concerned.

    You're also falsely accusing T'Challa, since his primary responsibility as king is to his people and his nation, not to the rest of the world. The fact that he still manages to go out and do good while still looking out for Wakanda is remarkable. Prior to the CW, who else could really say they were taking on the same level of responsibility that he has? Now, the only analogous super heroes are Namor, Tony, and Black Bolt. Further, you're (intentionally or not) ignoring that T'Challa has spent his life trying to change Wakanda's insular attitude and has suffered for it at home. As king he has forced the country to open up, but at his own personal expense, and against lots of resistance. And even then, his power as king doesn't give him the magical ability to change the culture of the country overnight. Not to mention that T'Challa is the product of the very same culture he's trying to change, and as such will still be influenced by it.

    In short, Wakandans are imperfect people but are not bad people. T'Challa has not been sitting idle with regards to changing Wakandan culture. And given the obstacles he's facing, he is doing a decent job trying to make Wakanda take a more prominent role in helping the world. The problem is that you're expecting T'Challa to single-handedly enact radical, sweeping, lasting changes that essentially override a culture that developed over hundreds of years, and you expect it all to happen in less than 15 years. While he's also fighting super-villains and dealing with actually running a kingdom and defending his throne.

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
    Twitter - @liberaltruths | Google+ - http://gplus.to/wwtMask | Occupy Tallahassee
  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Wakanda and Black Panther clearly aren't meant to be seen as petty, excessively prideful, or selfish to the point of villainy. So, you should keep in mind that, when you feel as though they have been depicted as such, that your reading comes as a result of writing that has inadvertently painted them in such a light rather than anything to do with the concept of the character or his nation at their core.

    To me, the suggestion that Wakanda has a cure for cancer but refuses to distribute it beyond their borders was one such misstep on the part of a writer. So, when Black Panther says he won't give out the cure for cancer because he doesn't trust the Western World, I see that as a mark against the writer rather than a mark against the character.

    Robos A Go Go on
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    I think it was actually cancer that they're supposed to have a cure for (which specific one is anyone's guess), and this was actually bandied about during a meeting of some government advisors and strategists. I can't recall if T'Challa was there, but he surely knows about the cure. Part of that conversation was the legitimate fear that the information would be inappropriately or irresponsibly exploited by outsiders due to a perceived lack of moral strength or conviction.

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
    Twitter - @liberaltruths | Google+ - http://gplus.to/wwtMask | Occupy Tallahassee
  • The Muffin ManThe Muffin Man Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    So he's not only a dick, he's a self-righteous dick?

    The Muffin Man on
  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    I really don't think saving lives with a cure is any more problematic than saving lives as a superhero. If Panther can drop from a ceiling and karate chop a supervillain after tracking him down, he can just as easily drop from the ceiling and deliver a cure to a cancer patient in the same fashion.

    The only difference is that the former doesn't make for a very interesting story and actually goes so far as to limit story possibilities, and so the writer is limited to being able to say Wakanda has a cure, but simply does not want to share it for whatever reason. That said, the writer now has a choice between dropping the plot point altogether or keeping it in, even if its neutered form is harder to rationalize and cause a misinterpretation of the character and his country akin to what we see in mattharvest's posts. A good writer, in my mind, would just drop it.

    This is assuming, of coures, that the writer didn't decide of his own accord that it would be a good idea for Wakanda to have a cancer cure but, due to poorly chosen circumstances, feel a reluctance to share it. If that's the case, then skip straight to, "This writer sucks."

    Robos A Go Go on
  • TransporterTransporter Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    No not really.

    I mean if he gave out the cure for cancer it would litterally become the worlds most expensive medicine by leaps and bounds.

    And that it would effectivly kill an industry that makes million and millions and millions of dollars via treatment and donations for research.

    Transporter on
  • RingoRingo He/Him a distinct lack of substanceRegistered User regular
    edited April 2008
    So he's not only a dick, he's a self-righteous dick?


    One of many.


    irondonghelicarrier.jpg

    Ringo on
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  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    No not really.

    I mean if he gave out the cure for cancer it would litterally become the worlds most expensive medicine by leaps and bounds.

    And that it would effectivly kill an industry that makes million and millions and millions of dollars via treatment and donations for research.

    Widescale vigilantism and, more presently, a government sponsored superhuman army present their own complications as well, but I think we can all agree that saving lives is paramount. It's not that there are no problems, but rather that the necessity of curing cancer overshadows all other problems.

    Robos A Go Go on
  • psycojesterpsycojester Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    If Panther can drop from a ceiling and karate chop a supervillain after tracking him down, he can just as easily drop from the ceiling and deliver a cure to a cancer patient in the same fashion.

    This is how Ultimate Black Panther should have been, a renegade from a culture of xenophobic dicks. Who stole the cure for cancer, escaped his isolationist countries over-zealous attempts to stop him doing anything nice for the world and now lives alone in the wilds of New York, a masked vigilante who cures people of cancer by karate chopping them back to health, whilst being hunting by the Wakandans who want to forcibly recruit him into their foreign baby drop-kicking squads and the very people whom he is trying to help but who cannot understand his methods.

    My stupidity aside have we now reached the stage where we say Wakanda is nearly as bad as Latveria and Atlantis but a lot more smug about it? I mean Namor randomly attacks the surface every couple of weeks, but he doesn't do it so he can prevent scientists from curing survey.

    psycojester on
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  • psycojesterpsycojester Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    No not really.

    I mean if he gave out the cure for cancer it would litterally become the worlds most expensive medicine by leaps and bounds.

    And that it would effectivly kill an industry that makes million and millions and millions of dollars via treatment and donations for research.

    Actually it wouldn't have to be the most expensive medicine either, provided he didn't keep up the ancient Wakandan tradition of dicking over outsiders and kept the damn patent in-house. The country is goddamn rich, they could sell it at cost price. It'd only become insanely expensive if he sold the rights to a corporation who subsequently had free reign to charge an arm and a leg for it.

    psycojester on
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