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This week's moments: 4/16/08

124

Posts

  • RingoRingo He/Him a distinct lack of substanceRegistered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Wakanda doesn't have any tradition of dicking over outsiders or attacking anyone which would put them far and away from Atlantis, Latveria, and ho ho the US.

    Choosing not to interact with the rest of the world is not a crime.

    Ringo on
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  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    It seems like everyone glossed over the whole notion that the Wakandans don't trust outsiders not to exploit their knowledge irresponsibly. Their position is, I think, as morally defensible as that of Reed, Tony, Hank, and the other super minds of the world who, through their own choices, place super heroics as more important than putting their considerable brain power towards turning the world into a utopia. No one appointed Wakanda as the policemen, savior, or fixer of the world. Their moral imperative to be any of these things is tenuous at best.

    wwtMask on
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  • Gabriel_PittGabriel_Pitt (effective against Russian warships) Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    but he doesn't do it so he can prevent scientists from curing survey.
    Dude, do you have any comprehension of how deep the blood would run in the streets if a cure for surveys got loose out there?

    Gabriel_Pitt on
  • psycojesterpsycojester Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    That should have been cure for scurvey, but yeah its a little known fact that Atlantis is actually the hub of all the worlds Tele-marketing and clipboard survey networks.

    psycojester on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    wwtMask wrote: »
    It seems like everyone glossed over the whole notion that the Wakandans don't trust outsiders not to exploit their knowledge irresponsibly. Their position is, I think, as morally defensible as that of Reed, Tony, Hank, and the other super minds of the world who, through their own choices, place super heroics as more important than putting their considerable brain power towards turning the world into a utopia. No one appointed Wakanda as the policemen, savior, or fixer of the world. Their moral imperative to be any of these things is tenuous at best.

    So you must not have read that recent issue of Fantastic Four where Reed explicitly states his plan to turn the world into a utopia. Also, I'm pretty sure Reed, Tony, and Hank's plan for the SHRA goes beyond super-heroics to making the world a better place as well. Sure it went wrong, arguably, but it was also a bit more complex than curing cancer.

    And like I said, drop from the ceiling and deliver the cure one person at a time. It's better than nothing, and really no more questionable than Panther fighting crime or, you know, participating in another country's civil war.

    Robos A Go Go on
  • SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Fuck Warren Ellis Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    I think calling the SHRA "more complex than curing cancer" is kind of an incorrect statement.

    SatanIsMyMotor on
  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    I think calling the SHRA "more complex than curing cancer" is kind of an incorrect statement.

    Wakanda already has the cure. It's part where they actually use the cure to cure cancer that they're having trouble with.

    And frankly, setting up your own pharmaceutical companies worldwide and selling the stuff at cost strikes me as a bit easier than the United States conscripting its citizens into a superhuman army, laws be damned. For one thing, nobody's going to fight in the street for their right to have cancer.

    Robos A Go Go on
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    I guess this moral quandary is predicated on whether you think Wakanda's extreme isolationism should inform their humanitarian efforts or whether they get involved in external affairs. Clearly T'Challa does think that they should be doing more, and I believe he does have efforts going under the radar to help people outside of Wakanda (I'll need to re-read a bit to verify that, but it seems like the sort of thing he'd do). This still puts them on about even footing with the super brains of the world, even while being hampered by cultural constructs that frown upon getting involved in the affairs of the outside world (outside of activities that benefit Wakanda). I don't know if you guys got to read the recent Annual, but the historical explanation of how Wakanda attempted to influence the slave trade is a reasonable illustration of the way they view their involvement in external affairs.

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
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  • mattharvestmattharvest Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    wwtMask wrote: »
    I guess this moral quandary is predicated on whether you think Wakanda's extreme isolationism should inform their humanitarian efforts or whether they get involved in external affairs. Clearly T'Challa does think that they should be doing more, and I believe he does have efforts going under the radar to help people outside of Wakanda (I'll need to re-read a bit to verify that, but it seems like the sort of thing he'd do). This still puts them on about even footing with the super brains of the world, even while being hampered by cultural constructs that frown upon getting involved in the affairs of the outside world (outside of activities that benefit Wakanda). I don't know if you guys got to read the recent Annual, but the historical explanation of how Wakanda attempted to influence the slave trade is a reasonable illustration of the way they view their involvement in external affairs.

    I haven't read that annual, so I can't speak to its contents.

    However, here's one key difference: some superheroes (DC or Marvel) have argued that they cannot fix the world's problems, because superhumans are something different, something apart. Well, Wakandans are just humans. They're humans lucky enough to be born next to a big asteroid that has super-science powers, just like humans in the USA who are lucky enough to be born into a wealthy family.

    There's a reason we think it's disgusting when the hyper-rich, in the real world, don't engage in philanthropy to at least do SOMETHING to help people: when it costs you essentially nothing to help someone, it's morally repugnant to fail to do so. As Spider-Man put it, "With Great Power comes Great Responsibility."

    I've already noted that I'm just as bothered by Stark, Richards, et al. not fixing these problems, but at least they're shown trying (SHRA is one of their projects in that list of a hundred or so ideas...) Even if they screw up, they're trying. The Wakandans apparently think that they're somehow not a part of humanity, that they have no humanitarian role. That's disgusting to me, personally. The very concept of a group of people who have the cure for all known diseases, who have renewable energy, etc. not helping at ALL is just repugnant.

    At the end of the day, Wakandans are egotistical about the luck of being born within the borders, not without. For that simple reason, they let their neighbors starve to death, die of AIDS, die of cancer, etc., etc.

    Superdickery.

    mattharvest on
  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    wwtMask wrote: »
    Clearly T'Challa does think that they should be doing more, and I believe he does have efforts going under the radar to help people outside of Wakanda (I'll need to re-read a bit to verify that, but it seems like the sort of thing he'd do).

    Yes, what people are ignoring is that the character, historically, would find ways around Wakanda's isolationist stance in order to do some good despite cultural constraints. That said, he hasn't been doing much of that in recent history (apart from playing a role in Civil War), and I feel that is an oversight on the part of Hudlin.

    Strangely, he seems to have acknowledged the need for Wakanda to lend a hand in combating troubles beyond its borders, if only behind the scenes, with the afore-mentioned reference to the country undermining the slave trade.

    I can only guess that the reason he refers to the responsibility to play a part in Africa's affairs and world affairs there, and not elsewhere, is that he's just not interested in writing a story about an altruistic T'Challa in the present day. The reluctance to do so, unfortunately, puts the character in a negative light and, in doing so, reflects poorly on Hudlin's ability to depict the character properly.

    The reference to a cancer cure only compounded this problem by presenting the possibility of doing good and then having the character shoot it down without offering alternative solutions more in line with Wakanda's isolationist stance. Again, I don't think the point is to make Panther seem evil, and so I don't think Panther is an evil character. Rather, I think he's a good character who has fallen prey to a misstep on the part of the writer, and so I think criticism is better aimed at the latter rather than the former (who is fictional, and not responsible for his own actions).

    Robos A Go Go on
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    wwtMask wrote: »
    I guess this moral quandary is predicated on whether you think Wakanda's extreme isolationism should inform their humanitarian efforts or whether they get involved in external affairs. Clearly T'Challa does think that they should be doing more, and I believe he does have efforts going under the radar to help people outside of Wakanda (I'll need to re-read a bit to verify that, but it seems like the sort of thing he'd do). This still puts them on about even footing with the super brains of the world, even while being hampered by cultural constructs that frown upon getting involved in the affairs of the outside world (outside of activities that benefit Wakanda). I don't know if you guys got to read the recent Annual, but the historical explanation of how Wakanda attempted to influence the slave trade is a reasonable illustration of the way they view their involvement in external affairs.

    I haven't read that annual, so I can't speak to its contents.

    However, here's one key difference: some superheroes (DC or Marvel) have argued that they cannot fix the world's problems, because superhumans are something different, something apart. Well, Wakandans are just humans. They're humans lucky enough to be born next to a big asteroid that has super-science powers, just like humans in the USA who are lucky enough to be born into a wealthy family.

    There's a reason we think it's disgusting when the hyper-rich, in the real world, don't engage in philanthropy to at least do SOMETHING to help people: when it costs you essentially nothing to help someone, it's morally repugnant to fail to do so. As Spider-Man put it, "With Great Power comes Great Responsibility."

    I've already noted that I'm just as bothered by Stark, Richards, et al. not fixing these problems, but at least they're shown trying (SHRA is one of their projects in that list of a hundred or so ideas...) Even if they screw up, they're trying. The Wakandans apparently think that they're somehow not a part of humanity, that they have no humanitarian role. That's disgusting to me, personally. The very concept of a group of people who have the cure for all known diseases, who have renewable energy, etc. not helping at ALL is just repugnant.

    At the end of the day, Wakandans are egotistical about the luck of being born within the borders, not without. For that simple reason, they let their neighbors starve to death, die of AIDS, die of cancer, etc., etc.

    Superdickery.

    Matt, there's not indication that Wakandans have a cure for all known diseases. Wakanda isn't perfect and it's not a panacea for all the world's problems. And they are doing some things in the world. They do have a humanitarian presence. The thing that disgusts you is there level of commitment and involvement, which is affected by their culture. While your opinion of their involvement is certainly valid, so is their opinion of how involved they should be in solving the world's problems. My reading indicates to me that they're willing to step in and help, but they do not see it as their job to be the saviors of the world. If anything, I'd that they don't see why they should be responsible for doing the work that others in power around the world should be doing. Their fear of outsiders misusing their knowledge and resources is very reasonable, all things considered.

    Recently, yes, the comic has strayed from the political leanings, and hopefully they'll get back on track soon. A problem with assessing T'Challa's work to help non-Wakandans is that an awful lot of what he does to accomplish his goals goes on behind the scenes. We see him punching bad guys and the like as a super hero, but he also has machinations going on in the background that bear fruit over long periods of time. This is exactly why stories about him handing out cures and miracles are few and far between, because he just doesn't work like that. I don't believe it means that he is doing nothing.

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
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  • smokmnkysmokmnky Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Wildcat wrote: »
    Thanks, Mask - it's from the back-up 'hey kids, science!!' strip in Power Pack: Day One from a week or two ago. Mass Master was demonstrating Moon gravity by jumping all over the place, hence depressed Hulk in the background.

    Am I the only one that though the helmet looked like one of those cones you put on a dog after they've been spayed/neutered?

    smokmnky on
  • Look Out it's Sabs!Look Out it's Sabs! Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    smokmnky wrote: »
    Wildcat wrote: »
    Thanks, Mask - it's from the back-up 'hey kids, science!!' strip in Power Pack: Day One from a week or two ago. Mass Master was demonstrating Moon gravity by jumping all over the place, hence depressed Hulk in the background.

    Am I the only one that though the helmet looked like one of those cones you put on a dog after they've been spayed/neutered?

    No, I was kind of thinking that too.

    Look Out it's Sabs! on
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  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    That's one way of calming him down.

    Robos A Go Go on
  • CyberJackalCyberJackal Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    He should be grateful they only shot him into space.

    CyberJackal on
  • mattharvestmattharvest Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    wwtMask wrote: »
    [
    Matt, there's not indication that Wakandans have a cure for all known diseases. Wakanda isn't perfect and it's not a panacea for all the world's problems. And they are doing some things in the world. They do have a humanitarian presence. The thing that disgusts you is there level of commitment and involvement, which is affected by their culture. While your opinion of their involvement is certainly valid, so is their opinion of how involved they should be in solving the world's problems. My reading indicates to me that they're willing to step in and help, but they do not see it as their job to be the saviors of the world. If anything, I'd that they don't see why they should be responsible for doing the work that others in power around the world should be doing. Their fear of outsiders misusing their knowledge and resources is very reasonable, all things considered.

    Recently, yes, the comic has strayed from the political leanings, and hopefully they'll get back on track soon. A problem with assessing T'Challa's work to help non-Wakandans is that an awful lot of what he does to accomplish his goals goes on behind the scenes. We see him punching bad guys and the like as a super hero, but he also has machinations going on in the background that bear fruit over long periods of time. This is exactly why stories about him handing out cures and miracles are few and far between, because he just doesn't work like that. I don't believe it means that he is doing nothing.

    I've bolded the line I think is important here: (a) where have they ever shown a willingness to help the outside world, and (b) whose job is it to save the world, if not humanity's? What kind of monstrous society, so far advanced above the rest of the world that it has that ridiculous credit card computer of T'Challa's, doesn't think it is their obligation to help their neighbors?

    Are you honestly suggesting that they think it's morally right to withhold aid to the other poor African nations, or India/Pakistan, or the former Soviet nations, and yet they're not awful people? Seriously? You're telling me that it's valid for them to have that sort of viewpoint?

    mattharvest on
  • CrimsondudeCrimsondude Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    wwtMask wrote: »
    As for what T'Challa is up to, he is, as usual, getting mixed up in outsider affairs, much to the displeasure of his people.

    He's their godly anointed king. Fuck their displeasure.

    How is Wakanda able to set up refugee camps outside of it's own borders?

    The same way the UNHCR does?

    wwtMask wrote: »
    I disagree that the Wakandan people are bad people. It is bad that they're xenophobes, but not indefensible given their history of having almost all bad experiences with outsiders.

    Yes, but a mature culture would grow up and get over it. If they are so insecure as to doubt their ability at this juncture not to get fucked over, then that is their biggest failing.

    And that it would effectivly kill an industry that makes million and millions and millions of dollars via treatment and donations for research.

    This is almost as great a side-effect as the actual curing of cancer.

    wwtMask wrote: »
    It seems like everyone glossed over the whole notion that the Wakandans don't trust outsiders not to exploit their knowledge irresponsibly.

    Maybe they can create a Wakanda Peace Prize like Alfred Novel did. That's the problem with science, but just because something bad might happen somehow somewhere by someone shouldn't be the driving force behind invention and research. That just makes them a nation of pussies.

    But I fail to see the problem in, say, the cancer cure "threat". As compared to what? Nanotech? That ship has sailed in Marvel.

    What they are doing is putting themselves in the unenviable position of having the world find out, and then facing that response. The response which, were it in the hands of one person, would result in that person... oh.... I don't know. Being lit on fire.
    Their position is, I think, as morally defensible as that of Reed, Tony, Hank, and the other super minds of the world who, through their own choices, place super heroics as more important than putting their considerable brain power towards turning the world into a utopia.

    "We're assholes, but SO ARE THEY!" isn't a valid defense.

    Crimsondude on
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Well yes, I suppose T'Challa could ignore the will of his people. Of course, in the past he's had to contend with coups, so maybe he should actually obey their will just a bit. Also, it's not in his character to completely ignore the will of his people. He's not trying to beat the Wakandan people into following his vision, he's trying to lead by example.

    Matt, you're still failing to acknowledge that Wakanda is helping outside their country. You seem to be arguing that since they're not pouring all of their resources into curing the world of its ills, then they're doing nothing. That isn't the case. Beyond that, I really don't see how they are any more morally compelled to do more than they do already. Given their history, is it really so hard to understand their reluctance to share with outsiders? In their minds, outsiders haven't proven themselves morally or spiritually ready to share in all of the knowledge that Wakanda has. However, we do know that some Wakandan tech and knowledge has filtered into the world, so you can't say that they're hoarding.

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
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  • TransporterTransporter Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    wwtMask wrote: »
    Well yes, I suppose T'Challa could ignore the will of his people. Of course, in the past he's had to contend with coups, so maybe he should actually obey their will just a bit. Also, it's not in his character to completely ignore the will of his people. He's not trying to beat the Wakandan people into following his vision, he's trying to lead by example.

    Matt, you're still failing to acknowledge that Wakanda is helping outside their country. You seem to be arguing that since they're not pouring all of their resources into curing the world of its ills, then they're doing nothing. That isn't the case. Beyond that, I really don't see how they are any more morally compelled to do more than they do already. Given their history, is it really so hard to understand their reluctance to share with outsiders? In their minds, outsiders haven't proven themselves morally or spiritually ready to share in all of the knowledge that Wakanda has. However, we do know that some Wakandan tech and knowledge has filtered into the world, so you can't say that they're hoarding.

    Devils Advocate:

    Okay, not sharing vibranium and Vibranium based tech? Cool, it's your resource, whatever. No need to save the world, and the world's getting along fine without it.

    Not sharing the cure for fucking cancer?. Or any other horrible disease?

    That's a dick move.

    I mean, Wakanda is basically America, with an even more infinite resource, right in the middle of the poorest continent on the planet. I mean, at the very least they can toss out some money to get the citizens above the starving to death margin jesus.

    Transporter on
  • mattharvestmattharvest Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    wwtMask wrote: »
    Matt, you're still failing to acknowledge that Wakanda is helping outside their country. You seem to be arguing that since they're not pouring all of their resources into curing the world of its ills, then they're doing nothing. That isn't the case. Beyond that, I really don't see how they are any more morally compelled to do more than they do already. Given their history, is it really so hard to understand their reluctance to share with outsiders? In their minds, outsiders haven't proven themselves morally or spiritually ready to share in all of the knowledge that Wakanda has. However, we do know that some Wakandan tech and knowledge has filtered into the world, so you can't say that they're hoarding.

    When a billionaire donates $5 to Habitat for Humanity, that's ridiculous. He's a billionaire, throw a few million at a charity and he makes it back that month in interest alone, not to mention interest and actual earnings.

    Wakanda has, at the very least, computer technology which T'Challa claims outstrips anything Richards and Stark have, and yet they've never shared it once with anyone.

    Wakanda has, at the very least, a cure for cancer, and yet they've never shared it with anyone.

    Wakanda has, at the very least, the technology to repel most superhumans, yet they've never shared it with anyone.

    What, so far, have they shared at all except for allowing hovels to be built outside their walls?

    In answer to your question, no, their views are not reasonable. You're suggesting that they can reasonably judge all of humanity for the actions of a few individuals who tried to conquer them. They're humans, and they're doing nothing to alleviate human suffering. They're bad people. Why are you so invested in defending a culture that is, literally by definition, unwilling to help their neighbors?

    EDIT: for comparison, do real-world Africans, dying of AIDS, need to prove themselves worthy of aid from the US or Europe? Do the victims in Darfur need to show their valor and worth before we should be helping them? Victims of suffering deserve aid, simply by virtue of being human and in pain. Anyone who would ask someone to earn humanitarian aid is a monster. We're not talking about some homeless alcoholic on the street, we're talking about entire nations of people ravaged by disease and poverty, where apparently you think it's moral for the Wakandans to ask them to 'prove themselves worthy' before they'll help.

    mattharvest on
  • SageinaRageSageinaRage Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    wwtMask wrote: »
    Well yes, I suppose T'Challa could ignore the will of his people. Of course, in the past he's had to contend with coups, so maybe he should actually obey their will just a bit. Also, it's not in his character to completely ignore the will of his people. He's not trying to beat the Wakandan people into following his vision, he's trying to lead by example.

    Matt, you're still failing to acknowledge that Wakanda is helping outside their country. You seem to be arguing that since they're not pouring all of their resources into curing the world of its ills, then they're doing nothing. That isn't the case. Beyond that, I really don't see how they are any more morally compelled to do more than they do already. Given their history, is it really so hard to understand their reluctance to share with outsiders? In their minds, outsiders haven't proven themselves morally or spiritually ready to share in all of the knowledge that Wakanda has. However, we do know that some Wakandan tech and knowledge has filtered into the world, so you can't say that they're hoarding.

    This is like the US saying that 3rd world countries aren't morally or spiritually ready for contraceptives and penicillin. It's one thing to hoard wealth, materials, military tech - it's entirely another to hoard medicine and other knowledge.

    SageinaRage on
    sig.gif
  • CrimsondudeCrimsondude Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    This is like the US saying that 3rd world countries aren't morally or spiritually ready for contraceptives and penicillin. It's one thing to hoard wealth, materials, military tech - it's entirely another to hoard medicine and other knowledge.

    *ahem*

    Bad example.
    wwtMask wrote: »
    Well yes, I suppose T'Challa could ignore the will of his people. Of course, in the past he's had to contend with coups, so maybe he should actually obey their will just a bit. Also, it's not in his character to completely ignore the will of his people. He's not trying to beat the Wakandan people into following his vision, he's trying to lead by example.

    Really? You make it sound like he's trying to lead by following.

    Come on. He's an autocratic monarch. That by itself means that everything he does is going to be contrary to the will of his people, because the will of the people does not decide what happens. And when it does, then it's either a fortuitous coincidence or him being weak.

    He's a despot by virtue of birth and privilege. He can act like it and be self-obsessed, or he can be an actual leader and make the country and the world a better place. And if the people don't like it? Then that just makes them not morally, spiritually or in anyway else deserving of what they had and have.

    wwtMask wrote: »
    I disagree that the Wakandan people are bad people. It is bad that they're xenophobes, but not indefensible given their history of having almost all bad experiences with outsiders.

    Yes, but a mature culture would grow up and get over it. If they are so insecure as to doubt their ability at this juncture not to get fucked over, then that is their biggest failing.

    ...
    wwtMask wrote: »
    It seems like everyone glossed over the whole notion that the Wakandans don't trust outsiders not to exploit their knowledge irresponsibly.

    Maybe they can create a Wakanda Peace Prize like Alfred Novel did. That's the problem with science, but just because something bad might happen somehow somewhere by someone shouldn't be the driving force behind invention and research. That just makes them a nation of pussies.

    But I fail to see the problem in, say, the cancer cure "threat". As compared to what? Nanotech? That ship has sailed in Marvel.

    What they are doing is putting themselves in the unenviable position of having the world find out, and then facing that response.

    One they more than deserve. I mean, personally I wouldn't consider such a country spiritually or morally deserving of existing. Go figure.

    Crimsondude on
  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Has Hudlin explained Wakanda's stances in interviews or the like?

    Robos A Go Go on
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    I think a point that I'm apparently failing to get across is that the Wakandans (at least the ones in charge) don't trust the powers that be outside of their country to act responsibly and are thus reluctant to share. There's a political aspect to this that I hadn't really touched on, even though the majority of our basis for argument here were comments made and actions taken in a political context by people in charge in Wakanda. As a sovereign nation, I think it'd be dumb to just give out all this knowledge, especially when it can be used to your advantage. It appears (again, I'll need to go back and read some) that Wakanda employs a carrot and stick approach to outsider governments. This was actually where the cancer thing was mentioned, when they were trying to decide how to deal with a looming threat from America. And you'll note that this is not dissimilar from the way that embargoes and other such diplomatic tools work, and we manage to tolerate them. I do agree that the magnitude of the cure for cancer is somewhat larger than an economic embargo, but I don't know that they're morally different.

    Again, Matt, there is ample evidence that they have, indeed, shared knowledge with the outside world. Apparently it's not at the level that you or others think is acceptable. Also, please stop saying that all Wakandans are bad people. The average Wakandan no more controls their government than you or I, and god knows that many actions of the US government do not reflect my views or values.

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
    Twitter - @liberaltruths | Google+ - http://gplus.to/wwtMask | Occupy Tallahassee
  • wirehead26wirehead26 Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Sort-of on topic, did anyone read Captain Marvel #5 and how Ms. Marvel suggested that maybe they(being superpowers) should do what Mar-vell did and try to stop wars around the world? And Tony's response?

    wirehead26 on
    I'M NOT FINISHED WITH YOU!!!
  • CrimsondudeCrimsondude Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    wwtMask wrote: »
    I think a point that I'm apparently failing to get across is that the Wakandans (at least the ones in charge) don't trust the powers that be outside of their country to act responsibly and are thus reluctant to share.

    No, you made that quite clear.

    It's just a spurious argument for being selfish.

    Wakanda employs a carrot and stick approach to outsider governments. This was actually where the cancer thing was mentioned, when they were trying to decide how to deal with a looming threat from America.

    Okay. So as a stick against one country it is somehow morally justified in punishing the rest of the world? Man, that's some pretty delusional self-righteousness. I want in.

    Especially considering that this is a country that the world can gang up on. And it'd be their own fault. So, how's that for learning lessons from the past they seem to obsess on so much?

    The average Wakandan no more controls their government than you or I, and god knows that many actions of the US government do not reflect my views or values.
    That does not gel with your earlier statement about T'Challa having to bend to the will of his people.

    You know, if the Wakandan people were backwards-assed and ignorant, I wouldn't have a problem. I'd think T'Challa was the superdick. But for a people from super-modern country, it's indefensible.

    Crimsondude on
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Crimson, you're reaching. I was saying T'Challa is trying to change the cultural xenophobia of his people; this is the will he's having to respect. Just because he's king doesn't mean he can ignore the will of his people without repercussion. He's trying to change their mindset by showing them the way instead of just telling them what to do. All this said, what does this have to do with the fact that governments often do things that do not reflect the values, views, or will of the people? Hell, do you really think that every Wakandan knows about everything the Wakandan government gets up to? And yet you all happily make the people out to be bad people due to the actions of the government. It makes no sense. The Wakandan people aren't bad people. All your arguments are saying is that their government sometimes makes decisions that are morally questionable while trying to forward their own agenda or interests. Which basically makes them like every other government ever.

    The Wakandan government is acting as any other rationally acting government would. Are you suggesting that the Wakandan government has more responsibility than any other nation towards the rest of the world? Or that due to their technical superiority, they're not allowed to use the same diplomatic tools to achieve their goals internationally? By the way, the cure for cancer was the carrot. The stick was, of course, the Wakandan military. No one wants any part of that stick

    wwtMask on
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  • The Ragin' CanadianThe Ragin' Canadian Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited April 2008
    The fundamental problem that some people are having here.... is that you're trying to remove the political, fiscal, ethical, and spiritual responsibilities of running a nation, whether it be through election or nepotism, and stripping it down to the 'right' thing to do. Nothing in the Marvel Universe is ever that black and white, what do you think this is.... DC?

    For those that have read BP continuously, you'd see that Wakanda has had a storied history of having to repel outsiders. The U.S. and other countries has tried to invade *multiple* times (including run-ins with Captain America and Black Knight), not to mention their vast resources are something that is sought out by many, many people. This has led to systemic xenophobia; a few people have thrown that word out there, and I don't think they realize the implications of that word. In this case, this is more than a century's worth of ingrained belief that the people outside of Wakanda would (for the most part) abuse the resources and gifts that Wakanda could provide. That's not something that you can change overnight, cause hell, T'Challa has slowly tried to get his nation to accept outsiders (he's not a despot, mind you, and doesn't act like Namor). This has caused a rift with even members of his own ruling cabinet.... where an attempted ouster/assassination of T'Challa has occurred regularly over BP's various runs (even including his adopted brother 'White Wolf'). T'Challa has to balance being a superhero, while running his nation, which would include: appeasing his cabinet, protecting Wakandan culture/resources, representing Wakanda in international affairs and fulfilling his ritual duties. That's a lot of pressure. T'Challa isn't God, nor has he showed that he wants to be one... cause he's not invincible, and can die. So he can't just do anything he wants and expect his people to 'fall in line'. Especially if you want your people to like you.

    Wakanda, for sure, is somewhat haughty and their isolationist culture does not lead one towards having sympathy towards them. It's more that their xenophobia is their hubrus; but not all of Wakanda is affected by it, and their empire probably won't fall because of it. However, it's the one reason why you can't call them a perfect society, and shouldn't be looked upon as one. Everyone in the Marvel Universe has flaws.

    And speaking to those who say, " Well, if they can be jerks, why can't Wakanda?" isn't an acceptable defense... why not? The SHRA was a disaster, despite having pure intentions. On top of the fact that if Reed had taken the amount of time he used to construct the Negative Zone prison into solving world hunger... well, that writes itself. These plot devices are convenient when it leads to a good story, and I blame the writers for creating certain plot points which leads to numerous "but why don't they..." comments. And at the very least, I hate double standards.

    The Ragin' Canadian on
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  • CrimsondudeCrimsondude Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Mask, what I'm not getting is that either the people know what is going on, or they don't.

    If they don't. Fine. It is a monarchy. Decisions are hardly transparent. And historically, they aren't exactly concerned with the will of the people. That is what I don't get. If he wants the will of the people to play a role, let T'Challa do what the king of Bhutan is doing and transition to a democracy. But he's the king. Kings haven't historically given a damn what the people think, and quite frankly a lot of the most productive ones got to be so because they did what was "right". Which is swell, too, if he did that.

    If they don't know, then what does it hurt them to have foreign revenue coming in? Hey, maybe they can benefit from their magical superiority somehow. If they do, then they are selfish fucks.

    But either way, it's T'Challa's decision. And the more you try to defend it, the more he comes off as the dick. You do not hoard something like what he has offered "as a carrot". That's like the U.S. government saying "Fuck you. We have a polio vaccine, but you don't get it because communists aren't morally responsible to use it. And since there are communists everywhere, we're just going to keep it to ourselves." Jesus, thank God Wakanda didn't invent the smallpox vaccine. We might still have one of the deadliest diseases in the history of mankind thriving instead of eradicated--an act done by the world because it was a global moral imperative.

    Moral and spiritual responsibility? Bullshit.

    That is the ultimate moral imperative to your species. Anything else is just selfishness wrapped in self-righteousness.

    wwtMask wrote: »
    The stick was, of course, the Wakandan military. No one wants any part of that stick

    hahaha

    Okay, now you're just fucking around.

    So he can't just do anything he wants and expect his people to 'fall in line'. Especially if you want your people to like you.
    "Like you?" He's their king, not their buddy. No wonder people have tried to usurp him.

    And speaking to those who say, " Well, if they can be jerks, why can't Wakanda?" isn't an acceptable defense... why not? The SHRA was a disaster, despite having pure intentions. On top of the fact that if Reed had taken the amount of time he used to construct the Negative Zone prison into solving world hunger... well, that writes itself. These plot devices are convenient when it leads to a good story, and I blame the writers for creating certain plot points which leads to numerous "but why don't they..." comments. And at the very least, I hate double standards.

    Well, because it assumes that "they" are somehow being let off the hook, which is just ridiculous. Especially to suggest such a thing in GV, where there is no lack of hatred and contempt for Reed's and Tony's superdickery.

    Second, "create"? He probably spent five minutes designing the plans for SHIELD to build before he got distracted by something else. But that is besides the point, since no one is saying Reed is somehow better when he does the same shit.

    Crimsondude on
  • FiarynFiaryn Omnicidal Madman Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Does anyone else find it hard to believe that Wakanda has all this super tech and somehow isn't shitting out super villains left and right?

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  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Fiaryn wrote: »
    Does anyone else find it hard to believe that Wakanda has all this super tech and somehow isn't shitting out super villains left and right?

    It's because the majority of the stories about the Marvel Universe are set in America, specifically New York.

    But from a story perspective, I'm sure they've said something about Wakanda having the lowest crime rate of anywhere in the world, except for maybe Latveria and Atlantis.

    Robos A Go Go on
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    So basically, Crimson, T'Challa is a dick assuming you ignore his character as written by numerous writers. Because T'Challa wouldn't ignore the will of his people, even if he thought the will of the people was wrong. Instead, he'd try to change their minds so that their will is in line with his. He would not mandate that they believe as he does. Further, while he does wield considerable power as king, he does not rule in a vacuum, and his cabinet/advisory council are key in running the country. I do not believe, though, that the average Wakandan on the street is privy to even a small percentage of what their government does.

    Speaking of cures for diseases, why are smallpox and malaria and other such diseases non-existent here in the USA, but prevalent in the third world. I wager that this is part of the irresponsibility that Wakandans refer to. Hell, AIDS is treatable through a cocktail of drugs that are priced out of the range of poor people with the disease. Why would people who are already deeply skeptical of outsiders think that the cure for cancer will be used any more responsibly?

    The Wakandan people seem to feel a responsibility to their country and themselves first. You disagree with their priorities. I don't think that they are necessarily wrong, especially since this cultural unity has served them well and kept them free from oppressors looking to conquer them.

    wwtMask on
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  • mattharvestmattharvest Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    wwtMask wrote: »
    So basically, Crimson, T'Challa is a dick assuming you ignore his character as written by numerous writers. Because T'Challa wouldn't ignore the will of his people, even if he thought the will of the people was wrong. Instead, he'd try to change their minds so that their will is in line with his. He would not mandate that they believe as he does. Further, while he does wield considerable power as king, he does not rule in a vacuum, and his cabinet/advisory council are key in running the country. I do not believe, though, that the average Wakandan on the street is privy to even a small percentage of what their government does.
    Where in BP has it ever shown that the King can be overruled? His cabinet/advisory councils are just that: advisors. He's the king, he makes the call. If he wants to give out their tech, he gives out their tech. If he wants to remain the powerful leader of a group of xenophobic racists, he can cowtow to their bigotry and refuse to help their neighbors. Seems like a pretty simple question.
    Speaking of cures for diseases, why are smallpox and malaria and other such diseases non-existent here in the USA, but prevalent in the third world. I wager that this is part of the irresponsibility that Wakandans refer to. Hell, AIDS is treatable through a cocktail of drugs that are priced out of the range of poor people with the disease. Why would people who are already deeply skeptical of outsiders think that the cure for cancer will be used any more responsibly?
    That's nonsense: the reasons AIDS drugs are expensive are (a) they're owned by private companies who had to invest billions in developing them, and they need to recoup the appropriate profits; and (b) the leaders of many African nations either don't believe in AIDS (or some aspect of its epidemiology) or refuse outsider aid.

    Wakanda owns this cancer cure, they can give it away for free, or spend some of their vast, endless economic worth subsidizing it some other way.
    The Wakandan people seem to feel a responsibility to their country and themselves first. You disagree with their priorities. I don't think that they are necessarily wrong, especially since this cultural unity has served them well and kept them free from oppressors looking to conquer them.
    You still haven't answered the question based on your own posts: in the real world, do the poor and sick in the third world need to show their moral worth before they have 'earned' medicine and other aid? If not, why do people in Marvel?

    Wakanda has the military might to remain independent, they've proven that. Wakanda has the medical might to cure the ills of many if not all their neighbors, they've proven that. Yet Wakanda is supposedly so afraid of outsiders that it choses to sit in its shell instead of helping anyone.

    Again, you've never answered: if they have endless money and tech, then giving out a pittance like letting people set up hovels outside their walls is nothing. Charity is only meaningful if it has a meaningful cost to you.

    mattharvest on
  • SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Fuck Warren Ellis Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    The other issue that you're comparing a comic book with what happens in real life.

    SatanIsMyMotor on
  • mattharvestmattharvest Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    The other issue that you're comparing a comic book with what happens in real life.

    No; we're comparing fiction with non-fiction. What is moral and ethical in the real world is moral and ethical in fiction, unless the underlying assumptions of that moral system are different. For example, the underlying truth of superpowers does create some new moral conclusions in comics.

    However, the ethics of humanitarianism are true unless the nature of humanity changes in the fiction. Unless you're claiming that the morals of humanitarianism are different in Marvel comics than they are in reality, we need to apply them uniformly.

    If it would be immoral to demand that sufferers show 'worthiness' of our aid in the real world, why should we say it is anything but immoral to demand such a show of worthiness in our fiction?

    mattharvest on
  • SageinaRageSageinaRage Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    This is like the US saying that 3rd world countries aren't morally or spiritually ready for contraceptives and penicillin. It's one thing to hoard wealth, materials, military tech - it's entirely another to hoard medicine and other knowledge.

    *ahem*

    Bad example.

    Why is this a bad example? Contraceptives are one of the big issues in several countries, because people don't have them or know how to use them, so they keep having kids, and thus food shortages grow worse and worse. I remember in Turkey and several other middle eastern countries, it's a pretty big deal.

    edit:: My basic opinion is that while BP is basically a stand up guy, Wakandans in general are kind of dickish. However, I don't think they're any more evil than isolationist americans are. I think a story that explores the similarities between wakanda and america, showing each from an outsider's perspective, could be interesting. But then, I'm crazy like that.

    SageinaRage on
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  • SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Fuck Warren Ellis Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    The other issue that you're comparing a comic book with what happens in real life.

    No; we're comparing fiction with non-fiction. What is moral and ethical in the real world is moral and ethical in fiction, unless the underlying assumptions of that moral system are different. For example, the underlying truth of superpowers does create some new moral conclusions in comics.

    However, the ethics of humanitarianism are true unless the nature of humanity changes in the fiction. Unless you're claiming that the morals of humanitarianism are different in Marvel comics than they are in reality, we need to apply them uniformly.

    If it would be immoral to demand that sufferers show 'worthiness' of our aid in the real world, why should we say it is anything but immoral to demand such a show of worthiness in our fiction?

    First off I don't understand why you started your rebuttal with "No; etc etc" considering you just repeated the exact same thing I said. However that's beside the point.

    I think having people that can split planets in two with a mere thought does somewhat change the underlying assumptions of a moral system. So yes, I would say that the moral systems in the Marvel Universe are fundamentally different and therefore can't really be applied to the real world.

    SatanIsMyMotor on
  • SageinaRageSageinaRage Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    I think having people that can split planets in two with a mere thought does somewhat change the underlying assumptions of a moral system. So yes, I would say that the moral systems in the Marvel Universe are fundamentally different and therefore can't really be applied to the real world.

    This is probably branching way out into D&D realm, but I'd really love to hear why you think this. Does inventing more powerful weapons change moral systems in fundamental ways?

    SageinaRage on
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  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    Matt, I can't argue with you, because you keep ignoring what I say. To answer your question, no, the poor and destitute shouldn't have to prove anything to qualify for aid. Their governments that are not serving them properly, who would ultimately be the ones to distribute and use Wakandan aid, should certainly be held up to a standard that the Wakandans think is appropriate. Humanitarian aid is routinely misappropriated by despotic governments (Oil for Food being the most notorious) and, surprise, these same countries tend to have people that need aid. Explain to me why the Wakandans are being unreasonable, given their culture, and given the very real chance that their aid will not go to the people that need it.

    Also, Wakandans don't appear to be racists as far as I've seen. The ruling council is full of hard liners whose opinions T'Challa takes into consideration before doing anything. Also, you have no proof that Wakanda doesn't lend humanitarian aid, while I do have proof that they do, which is why I keep saying that your problem is not that they don't do anything, but that you don't think they do enough. As for the cure for cancer, Wakanda can give it away free, I agree. But who is going to distribute it? Who fronts the money? Who produces it? Can they trust every link in that chain? You want this to be a black and white issue when it isn't at all.

    wwtMask on
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  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited April 2008
    That's why I think Hudlin shouldn't have brought up the cancer cure at all, at least not without adequate justification keeping it out of the hands of those who need it.

    Knowing that Wakanda could do so much more for the world, but chooses not to for reasons any rational person would find unacceptable, recasts all their previously stated humanitarian efforts in a negative light which, of course, goes against the intent of previous writers and the creator of the character himself.

    So, I really think it ought to be discounted, just like we ignore Doom acting like a racist and Monica Rambeau being the most helpless god-like being this side of the perpetually tied up Wonder Woman of the 1940's.

    Robos A Go Go on
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