Yeah, taller people do significantly better earnings-wise. Or rather, there's a penalty for being a short person. Not sure how that currently ties into gender in developed countries, because body size differentiation between the genders has shrunk somewhat.
here's another one, although its pretty old and restricted to a young age group:
Wage Effects of Obesity among Young Workers
Social Science Quarterly 71,1 (March 1990): 130-141
Cohort(s): NLSY79
ID Number: 2009
Publisher: University of Texas Press
Permission to reprint the abstract has not been received from the publisher.
This paper analyzes whether there exists a wage penalty for obesity defined as being 20 percent or more above one's ideal weight. Estimated earnings functions for samples of males and females from the NLSY indicate that, among the 18-25 year olds studied, obese females earn more than 12% less than comparable non-obese females. No significant effect of obesity on earnings was found for the males studied.
And here's the kicker: being overweight or an uggo or a not-snappy dresser will not affect a male's financial and career prospects.
Yeah that's pretty much bullshit.
Its not an opinion. There've been plenty of research articles on the phenomenon. And it only adds to the fact that actions, opinions and demands are treated with more respect and thoughtfulness when people think they come from a male than from a female. I know you'd love to think you have it tougher, or at least as tough as anyone else, but you don't. Than, this shit is why people tell whining men to stop whining. Its not about denying a problem exists, its about being sick of the poor-me phenomenon when there's little to no justification behind it.
If you think that your appearance or style of dress has no effect on your career if you are a man you are fucking delusional.
I've never had much of a 'neat' or tidy appearance, usually being somewhat dishevelled. I've never had any trouble advancing my scientific career because my qualifications and similar speak for themselves. I was accepted to a job in Brisbane (which, due to PhD going well I've not accepted) without them needing to see what I looked like and just my experience/degree.
If you are a guy who bathes, dresses appropriately, and makes an effort to maintain a presentable appearance, you'll be perfectly fine. While physical appearance certainly will help you, not being a male model isn't going to hold you back, at all. Status is a much more attractive quality in a man. Whether that be represented in a social, financial, or any other sense. This will help you with getting jobs, making friends, or meeting women.
ScienceDirect abstract, from a European study. This does find an impact of obesity on male earnings, but its only about half as severe as that on women. Interesting that the total earnings reduction appears to be lower, although they are looking at smaller differences in body weight overall.
If you are a guy who bathes, dresses appropriately, and makes an effort to maintain a presentable appearance, you'll be perfectly fine. While physical appearance certainly will help you, not being a male model isn't going to hold you back, at all. Status is a much more attractive quality in a man. Whether that be represented in a social, financial, or any other sense.
Basically, The Cat is dead-on.
Exactly. I even have problems with my body odor, due to breaking my nose when I was 17 I have been rendered completely unable to smell. This means that even with regular showering, wearing deoderant and the likes, I can still have quite a poignant smell (accidentally, because I don't know). If I've gone off running somewhere on an errand during the day for example, I often get all nice and sweaty without realising I also stink quite a bit. It takes a conscious effort for me to reapply deoderant and the like during the day.
Edit: I've never felt as if my physical appearance has been taken into account by my supervisors or employers. Hell, I was a skinny white dude employed as a chemist delivery boy to deliver prescriptions by bike (which I actually did pretty well anyway, appearances can be deceiving).
If you are a guy who bathes, dresses appropriately, and makes an effort to maintain a presentable appearance, you'll be perfectly fine. While physical appearance certainly will help you, not being a male model isn't going to hold you back, at all. Status is a much more attractive quality in a man. Whether that be represented in a social, financial, or any other sense. This will help you with getting jobs, making friends, or meeting women.
Basically, The Cat is dead-on.
understand, I just wanted to see some reports and as expected the Cat has responded with several.
Men are still expected to get fat as they get older, women aren't.
There are different ideas of what is attractive between the two genders, and obesity is carried differently as well, especially when the common ideal for women is being -underweight-.
Mind you, I don't doubt that there's a difference, but it exists for men in its own way.
And I really really want to see the numbers controlled for people raised in the 50s.
Men are still expected to get fat as they get older, women aren't.
There are different ideas of what is attractive between the two genders, and obesity is carried differently as well, especially when the common ideal for women is being -underweight-.
Well that's all true.
It doesn't change the fact that if you're bald or short or have bad skin or are just plain old ugly, you're going to have a harder time getting the job you want that Mitt Romney.
I'm not debating that women have it tougher. I'm disputing the notion that a guy's appearance has zero effect on his career. Hell, even one of the studies posted says that there is some coloration.
Men are still expected to get fat as they get older, women aren't.
There are different ideas of what is attractive between the two genders, and obesity is carried differently as well, especially when the common ideal for women is being -underweight-.
Well that's all true.
It doesn't change the fact that if you're bald or short or have bad skin or are just plain old ugly, you're going to have a harder time getting the job you want that Mitt Romney.
I'm not debating that women have it tougher. I'm disputing the notion that a guy's appearance has zero effect on his career. Hell, even one of the studies posted says that there is some coloration.
Ugly people have it harder than attractive people.
Ugly women have it harder than ugly men.
Attractive women have it harder than attractive men.
On these three points, I think we can all agree.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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AbsoluteZeroThe new film by Quentin KoopantinoRegistered Userregular
edited April 2008
I wonder how many of those girls put one of those handshake-buzzers on her boob....
And here's the kicker: being overweight or an uggo or a not-snappy dresser will not affect a male's financial and career prospects.
Yeah that's pretty much bullshit.
Its not an opinion. There've been plenty of research articles on the phenomenon. And it only adds to the fact that actions, opinions and demands are treated with more respect and thoughtfulness when people think they come from a male than from a female. I know you'd love to think you have it tougher, or at least as tough as anyone else, but you don't. Than, this shit is why people tell whining men to stop whining. Its not about denying a problem exists, its about being sick of the poor-me phenomenon when there's little to no justification behind it.
If you think that your appearance or style of dress has no effect on your career if you are a man you are fucking delusional.
It doesn't matter enough to impact lifetime earnings, sorry. Of course there's a minimum standard for anyone, no-one' arguing that showing up to you Wallt St job in a pair of shorts and a stained t-shirt won't matter. But you won't be held back by a beer gut, or bad taste in ties, or a receding chin. Women are. Deal with it.
Are we talking about lifetime earnings on average, here? Because if that is the case then there is more at work than just whether or not a guy dresses well or has ten chins.
Cat you are kindof implying that I can expect to go to an interview dressed like a clueless fuck and have a decent chance at getting the job. That just ain't true. If I have a better chance of getting a job in said situation than a girl, it is because I have a penis, not because of how I am dressed... and I guarantee you a better dressed, better looking man, all else being equal, would have a better chance at getting that job than I would.
I wonder if there is any control for current appearance versus appearance during hiring...
Diets are often different between genders/sexes, too, as are popular recreational activities, especially when you have the money to access them.
Heck, my mom doesn't work 1/10 as hard as my dad does (my dad builds a mansion on the weekends. BY HIMSELF), but he's the only one who is overweight (and he used to be ripped) in the family anymore, because he chomps down steaks every single chance he gets because it makes him feel wealthy. (My world is magical and strange I know I know)
Ugly people have it harder than attractive people.
Ugly women have it harder than ugly men.
Attractive women have it harder than attractive men.
On these three points, I think we can all agree.
Feral I think you've hit on the sad-but-true essence of the matter.
We could parse whether or not say, an attractive well-dressed woman would get a job over a poorly dressed man. But I think we're all essentially in agreement. There are stupid expectations out there working against us all, and it's not a fair game.
Curly_Brace on
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Gabriel_Pitt(effective against Russian warships)Registered Userregular
I'm sure she'd get a lot of self-worth validating attention, but i think that crushing the unwashed hordes as they try to grope your metal flanks is the positive kind.
Pandagon's got a post up, and Amanda kind of nailed the geek-psych aspects that were bothering me earlier (sigh, if only I could write). What really creeps me out is not that these guys are crap at boundaries and not treating women like shit, but that they were really taking advantage of a female demographic that is incredibly low on self-esteem and desperate for approval, especially the younger attendees. The comments in that thread about the 'purity' of groping strangers as opposed to actually having normal, 'dirty' sexual relationships are pretty enlightening too.
also, the quotes from his blog in that comments thread are fucking horrifying. If there was any doubt that The Dude Has Issues, it should be gone after reading the one about him trying to coerce a homeless woman into having sex with him
also, the quotes from his blog in that comments thread are fucking horrifying. If there was any doubt that The Dude Has Issues, it should be gone after reading the one about him trying to coerce a homeless woman into having sex with him
This deserves linkage for the proof of utter depths of this man's sexual depravations.
also, the quotes from his blog in that comments thread are fucking horrifying. If there was any doubt that The Dude Has Issues, it should be gone after reading the one about him trying to coerce a homeless woman into having sex with him
This deserves linkage for the proof of utter depths of this man's sexual depravations.
Just wow on the comments. I didn't get into them, because I thought they were going to be insane. I have a low threshold for that kind of thing.
Cat - that's been my position all along, these are women that have felt out of the loop for ahving star wars toys when they grew up instead of Barbies, and like shit most girls "puuuuuukeee~" at.
A demographic rife with exploitative possibilities to finally feel wanted, hell to even feel like an object maybe...certainly something they missed out on in 6th -8th grade.
The biggest problem lies in the shield of voluntariness ... simply because something is voluntary and does not require participation, some people say that gives you carte blanche to go out and do whatever you want, hell it's voluntary. I say this only as an example of an extreme form of where voluntary can go - I have no desire to debate the topic, or even discuss it, it a fact in support of a theory - many forms of genocide and segregation have started with voluntary programs to denote ones status in a community- and followed with the eventual unabashed abuse of many many people. It starts voluntary, then no one can escape it, it becomes totally pervasive.
If this caught on, at some point social pressure would dictate knowledge, and then participation by at least one person that may be uncomfortable with it, and that is just the start.
On a side note, this has just been fantastic discussing this, I should've broken my lurker status a long time ago heh.
I'm guessing I'm about to open myself up to a barrage of ridicule here, but can someone explain to me what's so horrible or depraved about this "Homeless Woman" story? Yeah, the story is pretty bizarre, but I thought it was entertaining.
Vrtra Theory on
Are you a Software Engineer living in Seattle? HBO is hiring, message me.
In defense of the name "Open Source Boob Project", I'd just like to point out that if you've ever tried to hand compile linux, you can grasp similar many of the linking and dependency problems you run into trying to get a girl running by hand.
This is why we turn to Package Managers, and the objectification of object oriented programming.
(oh god, how glad I am that I know none of you in person.)
kildy on
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BobCescaIs a girlBirmingham, UKRegistered Userregular
I'm guessing I'm about to open myself up to a barrage of ridicule here, but can someone explain to me what's so horrible or depraved about this "Homeless Woman" story? Yeah, the story is pretty bizarre, but I thought it was entertaining.
I really can't begin to explain all the things wrong with the story...it's that bad.
I'm guessing I'm about to open myself up to a barrage of ridicule here, but can someone explain to me what's so horrible or depraved about this "Homeless Woman" story? Yeah, the story is pretty bizarre, but I thought it was entertaining.
I really can't begin to explain all the things wrong with the story...it's that bad.
I'm not trying to bait anyone, I just don't see how this story is that much different than your typical "guy in a relationship has an affair with woman from work / woman he met in bookstore / whatever". I mean, his relationship with his girlfriend wasn't particularly healthy (but not uncommon), and his only interest in this other woman was to get laid (unfortunate, but still not uncommon). I just don't see how the fact that the woman was homeless, or the fact that she ended up being somewhat unstable, makes his actions any worse.
Vrtra Theory on
Are you a Software Engineer living in Seattle? HBO is hiring, message me.
It's not specific events but just the way the guy writes creeps me out a little. It's possible hes just a very good writer and faking the persona but still
also, the quotes from his blog in that comments thread are fucking horrifying. If there was any doubt that The Dude Has Issues, it should be gone after reading the one about him trying to coerce a homeless woman into having sex with him
This deserves linkage for the proof of utter depths of this man's sexual depravations.
So when a college-aged girl began watching me play Mortal Kombat on my lunchbreaks at the local arcade, I found the attention flattering.
I had taken to playing Mortal Kombat ferociously, and spent my lunch hours desperately kicking the shit out of the only people in my life I had power over: Digital people.
You couldn't help but notice her watch you, since she had eyes that glowed like a cat in the semidarkness of the video parlor. Most people look around when they talk - but her gaze had the singular, blazing focus of a lighthouse beam. She stood behind me one lunch hour at a time, silently watching.
It was not an unattractive gaze... If you were a fat desperate horny loser.
You honestly don't see how trying to cheat on your girlfriend with a mentally ill homeless person is unethical? Really? You don't see how maybe, just maybe, this shows a trend of viewing women as sex objects and not having any regard to their health and stability?
You honestly don't see how trying to cheat on your girlfriend with a mentally ill homeless person is unethical? Really? You don't see how maybe, just maybe, this shows a trend of viewing women as sex objects and not having any regard to their health and stability?
It's obviously unethical. My point was, I don't see how it's any worse than the behavior of your average 22-year-old fratboy. This guy might be a creep, but he doesn't have a monopoly on cheating or narcissism.
Vrtra Theory on
Are you a Software Engineer living in Seattle? HBO is hiring, message me.
Posts
Yeah, taller people do significantly better earnings-wise. Or rather, there's a penalty for being a short person. Not sure how that currently ties into gender in developed countries, because body size differentiation between the genders has shrunk somewhat.
Wage Effects of Obesity among Young Workers
Social Science Quarterly 71,1 (March 1990): 130-141
Cohort(s): NLSY79
ID Number: 2009
Publisher: University of Texas Press
Permission to reprint the abstract has not been received from the publisher.
This paper analyzes whether there exists a wage penalty for obesity defined as being 20 percent or more above one's ideal weight. Estimated earnings functions for samples of males and females from the NLSY indicate that, among the 18-25 year olds studied, obese females earn more than 12% less than comparable non-obese females. No significant effect of obesity on earnings was found for the males studied.
from here: http://www.nlsbibliography.org/qauthor.php3?xxx=WILLIAMS,+DONALD+R.
I've never had much of a 'neat' or tidy appearance, usually being somewhat dishevelled. I've never had any trouble advancing my scientific career because my qualifications and similar speak for themselves. I was accepted to a job in Brisbane (which, due to PhD going well I've not accepted) without them needing to see what I looked like and just my experience/degree.
Basically, The Cat is dead-on.
Exactly. I even have problems with my body odor, due to breaking my nose when I was 17 I have been rendered completely unable to smell. This means that even with regular showering, wearing deoderant and the likes, I can still have quite a poignant smell (accidentally, because I don't know). If I've gone off running somewhere on an errand during the day for example, I often get all nice and sweaty without realising I also stink quite a bit. It takes a conscious effort for me to reapply deoderant and the like during the day.
Edit: I've never felt as if my physical appearance has been taken into account by my supervisors or employers. Hell, I was a skinny white dude employed as a chemist delivery boy to deliver prescriptions by bike (which I actually did pretty well anyway, appearances can be deceiving).
understand, I just wanted to see some reports and as expected the Cat has responded with several.
There are different ideas of what is attractive between the two genders, and obesity is carried differently as well, especially when the common ideal for women is being -underweight-.
Mind you, I don't doubt that there's a difference, but it exists for men in its own way.
And I really really want to see the numbers controlled for people raised in the 50s.
Only a furry could have come up with something this stupid.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Let's hope this is true.
It doesn't change the fact that if you're bald or short or have bad skin or are just plain old ugly, you're going to have a harder time getting the job you want that Mitt Romney.
I'm not debating that women have it tougher. I'm disputing the notion that a guy's appearance has zero effect on his career. Hell, even one of the studies posted says that there is some coloration.
Ugly people have it harder than attractive people.
Ugly women have it harder than ugly men.
Attractive women have it harder than attractive men.
On these three points, I think we can all agree.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
I dread the notion of showing up for an interview with a bald guy all narrowing his eyes at my ponytail. :P
Are we talking about lifetime earnings on average, here? Because if that is the case then there is more at work than just whether or not a guy dresses well or has ten chins.
Cat you are kindof implying that I can expect to go to an interview dressed like a clueless fuck and have a decent chance at getting the job. That just ain't true. If I have a better chance of getting a job in said situation than a girl, it is because I have a penis, not because of how I am dressed... and I guarantee you a better dressed, better looking man, all else being equal, would have a better chance at getting that job than I would.
In any case, it's still stupid.
Diets are often different between genders/sexes, too, as are popular recreational activities, especially when you have the money to access them.
Heck, my mom doesn't work 1/10 as hard as my dad does (my dad builds a mansion on the weekends. BY HIMSELF), but he's the only one who is overweight (and he used to be ripped) in the family anymore, because he chomps down steaks every single chance he gets because it makes him feel wealthy. (My world is magical and strange I know I know)
Feral I think you've hit on the sad-but-true essence of the matter.
We could parse whether or not say, an attractive well-dressed woman would get a job over a poorly dressed man. But I think we're all essentially in agreement. There are stupid expectations out there working against us all, and it's not a fair game.
Who even goes around talking to a woman and being like "hey can I touch your boobs". Normal people don't do that. Oogling is fine, touching isn't.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
I disagree.
I was having a shitty day too.
's all good now.
the Onion | Woman At Farscape Convention Has Dangerously Inflated Self-Image
This deserves linkage for the proof of utter depths of this man's sexual depravations.
http://www.theferrett.com/showarticle.php?Rant=46
that's just so creepy. I need to shower now.
Cat - that's been my position all along, these are women that have felt out of the loop for ahving star wars toys when they grew up instead of Barbies, and like shit most girls "puuuuuukeee~" at.
A demographic rife with exploitative possibilities to finally feel wanted, hell to even feel like an object maybe...certainly something they missed out on in 6th -8th grade.
The biggest problem lies in the shield of voluntariness ... simply because something is voluntary and does not require participation, some people say that gives you carte blanche to go out and do whatever you want, hell it's voluntary. I say this only as an example of an extreme form of where voluntary can go - I have no desire to debate the topic, or even discuss it, it a fact in support of a theory - many forms of genocide and segregation have started with voluntary programs to denote ones status in a community- and followed with the eventual unabashed abuse of many many people. It starts voluntary, then no one can escape it, it becomes totally pervasive.
If this caught on, at some point social pressure would dictate knowledge, and then participation by at least one person that may be uncomfortable with it, and that is just the start.
On a side note, this has just been fantastic discussing this, I should've broken my lurker status a long time ago heh.
This is why we turn to Package Managers, and the objectification of object oriented programming.
(oh god, how glad I am that I know none of you in person.)
I really can't begin to explain all the things wrong with the story...it's that bad.
Well, duh. If you are a very handsome guy, it factors in. However, being ugly does not work against you as a man.
I'm not trying to bait anyone, I just don't see how this story is that much different than your typical "guy in a relationship has an affair with woman from work / woman he met in bookstore / whatever". I mean, his relationship with his girlfriend wasn't particularly healthy (but not uncommon), and his only interest in this other woman was to get laid (unfortunate, but still not uncommon). I just don't see how the fact that the woman was homeless, or the fact that she ended up being somewhat unstable, makes his actions any worse.
I am LOL'ing over here.
It's obviously unethical. My point was, I don't see how it's any worse than the behavior of your average 22-year-old fratboy. This guy might be a creep, but he doesn't have a monopoly on cheating or narcissism.