So you're just cool with punishing the employees while supporting the owners who are actually responsible for the decision you disapprove of. And somehow that's not bile-worthy.
So when I don't tip, I'm causing the server to be paid less than minimum wage and so it's on me? Hahaha, what bullshit.
And that there are no "shoulds" for tipping. Yes, it's on you. Yes, you should tip when you get good service. Who else would it be on?
I do tip when I get good service. Often generously.
This is not because of any responsibility (i.e. "shoulds") that I believe I have towards waiters, however. It's simply a matter of principle for me. Social norms can go suck it.
So you obey social-norms to stick it to social-norms? I see. Well you go ahead and rage against the machine or whatever.
The point is many people don't tip because they feel obligated to tip. I sure don't. I tip because I want to tip. Whether you think that is an important distinction or not is up to you, but as far as the philosophies that inform my personal actions go, it is a very important distinction to me.
Except that you'll note that in places where tips aren't expected to bring servers' pay up above minimum wage, people tip significantly less and less often, a state which suggests that people tip as much as they do because they feel obligated to, since when they're not obligated in the way they are here, they don't tip anywhere near as much.
Okay, I'll amend "many people" to "good people," a group I consider myself in. I don't really know how many people, or what percentage of people, tip for the right reasons.
However, I don't think the right reason to tip is "because I'm paying the server's wage," and I really never will. They should either fix the way wait staff wages work or whatever but leave me out of all that. I'll just tip based on what I consider the fundamental point of tipping: to reward good service.
Except that you'll note that in places where tips aren't expected to bring servers' pay up above minimum wage, people tip significantly less and less often, a state which suggests that people tip as much as they do because they feel obligated to, since when they're not obligated in the way they are here, they don't tip anywhere near as much.
So you're just cool with punishing the employees while supporting the owners who are actually responsible for the decision you disapprove of. And somehow that's not bile-worthy.
So when I don't tip, I'm causing the server to be paid less than minimum wage and so it's on me? Hahaha, what bullshit.
And that there are no "shoulds" for tipping. Yes, it's on you. Yes, you should tip when you get good service. Who else would it be on?
I do tip when I get good service. Often generously.
This is not because of any responsibility (i.e. "shoulds") that I believe I have towards waiters, however. It's simply a matter of principle for me. Social norms can go suck it.
So you obey social-norms to stick it to social-norms? I see. Well you go ahead and rage against the machine or whatever.
The point is many people don't tip because they feel obligated to tip. I sure don't. I tip because I want to tip. Whether you think that is an important distinction or not is up to you, but as far as the philosophies that inform my personal actions go, it is a very important distinction to me.
Except that you'll note that in places where tips aren't expected to bring servers' pay up above minimum wage, people tip significantly less and less often, a state which suggests that people tip as much as they do because they feel obligated to, since when they're not obligated in the way they are here, they don't tip anywhere near as much.
Okay, I'll amend "many people" to "good people," a group I consider myself in. I don't really know how many people, or what percentage of people, tip for the right reasons.
However, I don't think the right reason to tip is "because I'm paying the server's wage," and I really never will. They should either fix the way wait staff wages work or whatever but leave me out of all that. I'll just tip based on what I consider the fundamental point of tipping: to reward good service.
Are you suggesting that people who live in places where tipping, due to being unnecessary, is uncustomary, and so don't tip 20% at every meal are not "good people"? That's a dangerous argument.
Except that you'll note that in places where tips aren't expected to bring servers' pay up above minimum wage, people tip significantly less and less often, a state which suggests that people tip as much as they do because they feel obligated to, since when they're not obligated in the way they are here, they don't tip anywhere near as much.
Suggests but does not prove.
Well, prove that your tipping habits would be the same if you had lived in Canada your entire life and you'll have one up on me.
So you're just cool with punishing the employees while supporting the owners who are actually responsible for the decision you disapprove of. And somehow that's not bile-worthy.
So when I don't tip, I'm causing the server to be paid less than minimum wage and so it's on me? Hahaha, what bullshit.
And that there are no "shoulds" for tipping. Yes, it's on you. Yes, you should tip when you get good service. Who else would it be on?
I do tip when I get good service. Often generously.
This is not because of any responsibility (i.e. "shoulds") that I believe I have towards waiters, however. It's simply a matter of principle for me. Social norms can go suck it.
So you obey social-norms to stick it to social-norms? I see. Well you go ahead and rage against the machine or whatever.
The point is many people don't tip because they feel obligated to tip. I sure don't. I tip because I want to tip. Whether you think that is an important distinction or not is up to you, but as far as the philosophies that inform my personal actions go, it is a very important distinction to me.
Except that you'll note that in places where tips aren't expected to bring servers' pay up above minimum wage, people tip significantly less and less often, a state which suggests that people tip as much as they do because they feel obligated to, since when they're not obligated in the way they are here, they don't tip anywhere near as much.
Okay, I'll amend "many people" to "good people," a group I consider myself in. I don't really know how many people, or what percentage of people, tip for the right reasons.
However, I don't think the right reason to tip is "because I'm paying the server's wage," and I really never will. They should either fix the way wait staff wages work or whatever but leave me out of all that. I'll just tip based on what I consider the fundamental point of tipping: to reward good service.
Are you suggesting that people who live in places where tipping, due to being unnecessary, is uncustomary, and so don't tip 20% at every meal are not "good people"? That's a dangerous argument.
Uncustomary? No. Like in England, tipping is not customary. In America, though, tipping for good service is customary.
Uncustomary? No. Like in England, tipping is not customary. In America, though, tipping for good service is customary.
So it really has less to do with strictly rewarding good service and more to do with customs.
It has to do with both. In our culture, rewarding good service is a custom. In other cultures, it isn't. Why is this difficult to comprehend? The fact that it is custom does not invalidate the fact that you are rewarding for good service. And it doesn't necessarily make our culture any better than a culture that doesn't incorporate this custom, nor does it make a culture that doesn't any worse than ours, but within this context, yes, it is both customary and good to tip for the purpose of rewarding good service.
Neither my immediate nor fundamental reason for tipping is "this is custom" but the fact that it is custom has guided me to the belief that it is appropriate to tip for good service. I am, however, not willing to write off other cultures that arrive at different philosophies and actions because of different customs.
Uncustomary? No. Like in England, tipping is not customary. In America, though, tipping for good service is customary.
So it really has less to do with strictly rewarding good service and more to do with customs.
It has to do with both. In our culture, rewarding good service is a custom. In other cultures, it isn't. Why is this difficult to comprehend? The fact that it is custom does not invalidate the fact that you are rewarding for good service. And it doesn't necessarily make our culture any better than a culture that doesn't incorporate this custom, nor does it make a culture that doesn't any worse than ours, but within this context, yes, it is both customary and good to tip for the purpose of rewarding good service.
Neither my immediate nor fundamental reason for tipping is "this is custom" but the fact that it is custom has guided me to the belief that it is appropriate to tip for good service. I am, however, not willing to write off other cultures that arrive at different philosophies and actions because of different customs.
I tip because it's customary. If it were to "reward good service," I wouldn't tip for mediocre or slightly bad service.
Uncustomary? No. Like in England, tipping is not customary. In America, though, tipping for good service is customary.
So it really has less to do with strictly rewarding good service and more to do with customs.
It has to do with both. In our culture, rewarding good service is a custom. In other cultures, it isn't. Why is this difficult to comprehend? The fact that it is custom does not invalidate the fact that you are rewarding for good service. And it doesn't necessarily make our culture any better than a culture that doesn't incorporate this custom, nor does it make a culture that doesn't any worse than ours, but within this context, yes, it is both customary and good to tip for the purpose of rewarding good service.
Neither my immediate nor fundamental reason for tipping is "this is custom" but the fact that it is custom has guided me to the belief that it is appropriate to tip for good service. I am, however, not willing to write off other cultures that arrive at different philosophies and actions because of different customs.
I tip because it's customary. If it were to "reward good service," I wouldn't tip for mediocre or slightly bad service.
I don't believe it is customary to "tip slightly bad service," sorry, at least not in general. Maybe it is something you were personally raised to do, but I think the general American mindset is to tip for good service. What you do for any other kind of service is pretty much up to you.
At this point people need to pretty much define good service and slightly bad service.
Good service = dismounting AFTER the song ends.
Slightly bad service = dismounting BEFORE the song ends to ask me if I want another service, even if she's hot.
I resent tipping at any place that points out that "service isn't included". Unless I can fetch my food myself from the kitchen, service is included. I also used to work in a Burger King and had to put up with far more shit than in a real restaurant and nobody would ever think of tipping me.
If I get particularly good service, then I'll tip as they are going beyond what their basic wage covers. It also encourages the crap waiters to be better.
I resent tipping at any place that points out that "service isn't included". Unless I can fetch my food myself from the kitchen, service is included. I also used to work in a Burger King and had to put up with far more shit than in a real restaurant and nobody would ever think of tipping me.
If I get particularly good service, then I'll tip as they are going beyond what their basic wage covers. It also encourages the crap waiters to be better.
Actually, I don't mind that whatsoever. If an establishment is upfront as to what you are expected to pay, then that is absolutely fine with me. It's true that the establishment may require you to accept service which you are then expected to pay for, instead of allowing you the option to run to the kitchen, prepare, and carry the food yourself, but you know that when you walk into a restaurant anyway and if you didn't, you could also walk right out and go to a buffet place or whatever. Telling you "service not included" and then mandating service isn't really a contradiction.
So you're just cool with punishing the employees while supporting the owners who are actually responsible for the decision you disapprove of. And somehow that's not bile-worthy.
So when I don't tip, I'm causing the server to be paid less than minimum wage and so it's on me? Hahaha, what bullshit.
And that there are no "shoulds" for tipping. Yes, it's on you. Yes, you should tip when you get good service. Who else would it be on?
I do tip when I get good service. Often generously.
This is not because of any responsibility (i.e. "shoulds") that I believe I have towards waiters, however. It's simply a matter of principle for me. Social norms can go suck it.
So you obey social-norms to stick it to social-norms? I see. Well you go ahead and rage against the machine or whatever.
The point is many people don't tip because they feel obligated to tip. I sure don't. I tip because I want to tip. Whether you think that is an important distinction or not is up to you, but as far as the philosophies that inform my personal actions go, it is a very important distinction to me.
Except that you'll note that in places where tips aren't expected to bring servers' pay up above minimum wage, people tip significantly less and less often, a state which suggests that people tip as much as they do because they feel obligated to, since when they're not obligated in the way they are here, they don't tip anywhere near as much.
I wouldn't have EVER known some states pay waiters less then minimum wage unless my cousin told me. I have this stupid disease that makes me think "minimum wage" should mean that's the minimum people get paid. What I am saying is that some people never even consider this in their tipping habits because they don't know.
I resent tipping at any place that points out that "service isn't included". Unless I can fetch my food myself from the kitchen, service is included. I also used to work in a Burger King and had to put up with far more shit than in a real restaurant and nobody would ever think of tipping me.
If I get particularly good service, then I'll tip as they are going beyond what their basic wage covers. It also encourages the crap waiters to be better.
Seriously. Fast Food people of all people should fundamentally get paid more then other places. If people don't think that work a day at taco bell during rush.
If they are getting paid less than minimum wage, it's the employer's responsibility to increase it, not the customer's responsibility to make up for the employer's greed.
Nice try.
Servers can be legally paid less than minimum wage because their tips elevate their per-hour earnings to at or above minimum wage, usually, and on average over time, definitely.
Understand that when you tip less than you should, you are causing the server to be paid less. That's on you, not the employer.
The problem with that line of thinking is that it becomes bizarre when extended. If you tip 10% when you could have tipped 15%, you are causing the server to be paid less. If you tip 50% when you could have tipped 70%... With the employer having to top up to minimum anyway, the server can't make less than minimum wage regardless of how well one tips.
Then again, I tip fairly well and my servers get at least minimum wage anyway. Of course if I ever had a server with the attitude of Esh, I suppose I would miss out on giving what works out to a negative tip.
What attitude is that exactly? I make a shit ton of money bartending. And why? Because I'm pretty amazing at it and one of the nicest people behind a bar you'll ever meet. Cross a line though and you're out the door.
I don't know, you come across as one of those people who'd go, "Man, that dude was a complete dick, he only gave me a penny." Instead of, "Man, I only got a penny, I wonder what the fuck did I do wrong today?"
Servers (or bartenders) tend to think they're the most entitled people in the world, and that they could do nothing wrong, ever. I've met some nice servers, but I've also met some pretty dickish servers too. Your tips are strictly a reward for good or decent service, not because they're expected.
He just keeps spouting the same uninformed discourse. It's just Trolly. Ugh, I hate customers.
And this is exactly why. If you don't like the business, don't be in it.
Must be good money though, for something that doesn't take any education other than some simple skills that almost anyone short of someone with mental handicaps should have. By the way, that's why it's considered "low-skill." Bar-tending is not the same as serving, at all. It's a more skilled labor, although it's in the same service field. More like the next step up the ladder.
Just because your wages are disproportionately high compared to other skilled labors, doesn't take away from the fact that the skills it takes to serve are not on par with say, knowing how to configure a network system, or knowing how to clean spy-ware off someone's PC. (not necessarily bar-tending, remember, that's a completely different job but is still considered a "service" field) It's just not the same skill level. I'd hazard a guess that most people, regardless of their schooling could be a server (and pick it up relatively quickly), however, I do not believe the same to be true for most everything else. And just because you can, doesn't mean everyone else can. I'd wager we can pick someone at random from a local diner and ask them to set up a business network they'd go, "What?" So, yeah, low-skilled. /rant
I'm sorry if I offend anyone by saying it's low-skilled. It's just not the same as a car-mechanic, a doctor, a computer specialist, etc.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
I wouldn't have EVER known some states pay waiters less then minimum wage unless my cousin told me. I have this stupid disease that makes me think "minimum wage" should mean that's the minimum people get paid. What I am saying is that some people never even consider this in their tipping habits because they don't know.
Good for you, but you don't have to know everything that motivates social convention in order for social convention to be motivated by it.
What people mean by "low-skilled" is that any person can get a job at a restaurant without taking any school. Where as high skilled you either need to take years of college/university or become an apprentice.
People take 4 years university to hopefully get a higher return later on in life (higher salary than 'low-skilled') Because not only did the person not get paid during those 4 years (unless if they had a part time job) they had to pay 20k/year (or whatever number) for the education.
Anyways, one thing I notice quite a few people saying is 'if they provide shitty service, they just get a shitty tip'.
WHY THE FUCK do you give ANY tip whatsoever on shitty service?
If it is shitty service it should be NO TIP.
Basically this is my train of thought from now on
Horrible service = 1 cent tip (or if credit card, write ZERO on tip line)
Average service = you doing your job so low tip (10% max)... and only because I feel pressured into doing so
Above average/superior service = 15-20% tip.
Now I rarely go out to eat at a restaurant (maybe 5 times per year) so the line between average service and superior service can be a bit cloudy for me.
But if you guys think I'm a dick for my 'low tipping' how about you fuck right off since it is a TIP on how well I think they did their job.
I don't see their pay stubs so I don't give a fuck what their owner is paying them. I have no clue if a person is being paid $3 an hour or $15 so why should I subsidise their wage on the chance that they may be getting paid $5 an hour. Most people say if you don't like the work FIND ANOTHER FUCKING JOB.
If you keep bitching about your wage why don't you find a job that pays what you are expecting? Oh ya because it is considered a low skilled position (education wise) so you probably didnt put your time in University for the required skills for a better job. So quit bitching or go to school.
'Standards' can go fuck themselves. The price on the meal + tax is what is EXPECTED to pay.. any more than that is a bonus that can be any amount that I find I am comfortable with / what I think you deserve.
I don't tip my barber, he is doing his SOLE job of cutting my hair / sweeping up hair.
I don't tip my mail main or newspaper delivery person because that is their job.
Only reason waiters get tipped is because for some odd fucked up reason, it became a social standard in North America, the reason, IMO, only God knows why.
And I dont give a shit if you think I am a bad customer. Watch me give a shit. Like I said I only eat out a couple times a year so you wont have to deal with me on a regular basis. Sorry that you are "expecting" bigger tip than I gave. Go cry some more or find another job.
You've also clearly never worked as a waiter. Especially in a fine dining restaurant.
You may or may not be completely wrong.
It takes no skills other than something remedial. I mean, if you can land the space-shuttle while picking up the tray and carrying it over to the guy in seat 11, and asking him if he'd like some more coke, then okay.
Thus, low-skilled. Someone who has never attended high school (maybe even with no school at all, as long as they're not socially inept) could do the job and earn the standard tip.
Tipping your maître d' is a different ballgame entirely. And I'm talking actual fine dining, not some local restaurant that is allowed to serve wine and has a candlestick in the center of the table. Anyone can still remember what wine would be recommended with what meal, or even bullshit enough to go "I'm not sure what wine the chef is recommending tonight for this meal, let me double check for you fine folks."
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
I hear about waiters and bar tenders talking about clearing $300 a night sometimes. I know that's not average or what ever but that is still equivalent of 36 to 37 an hour which is like $73,000 a year carried out across five days a week. That's way more then a police officer or mid-management type or 20 year armed services enlisted man or scientist for the state of Washington makes.
The $300 a night thing is just for Fridays and Saturdays, I think. I can't imagine that a typical Tuesday is that good for them. That aside, I'm standing by my original statement that waiters are NOT getting "screwed" by the IRS.
For real... if people could make $73,000 a year just on waiting tables or tending bar, everyone would be in that business. $300 on a Friday and Saturday is only in certain places, also... some guy at a hash-slinger isn't going to get the same action as another guy at a place that serves Kobe beef. Same with some biker bar on the edge of town and a trendy club in midtown.
What people mean by "low-skilled" is that any person can get a job at a restaurant without taking any school.
Kind of, but this is simplifying things. It takes more training (let's use that instead of skill) and a different mind set to serve at a premium wine bar than it does at a diner whose most difficult menu choice is should I choose ribbon cane or maple syrup to go with my chicken and waffles (ribbon cane). With a premium wine bar, you'd have to know what the wines are, what they taste like, how to recommend someone a wine, how to serve them, etc... because the patron's paying a lot of money and expects a certain level of service. At a diner, you can't just throw the food at people, but people aren't expecting their napkins to be folded a certain way and aren't going to have a cow if their chicken isn't piping hot because the waffle iron got stuck.
For real... if people could make $73,000 a year just on waiting tables or tending bar, everyone would be in that business. $300 on a Friday and Saturday is only in certain places, also... some guy at a hash-slinger isn't going to get the same action as another guy at a place that serves Kobe beef. Same with some biker bar on the edge of town and a trendy club in midtown.
This reminds me of an odd thing I noticed. In my experience the best tippers are the lower-middle and middle class (in general, there are of course exceptions). The trailer-parks actually even tipped me pretty well, though understandably not all people in the lower-class economically can afford to be making big tips. As to the upper-middle and upper-class, I guess they didn't get where they are by being free with their money?
Edit: I mean some of them you could tell just in the two minutes of interaction were pretty unsympathetic to oh anyone, but it wasn't all of them and I don't want to just be going "ololz rich people are bad".
Edit: I mean some of them you could tell just in the two minutes of interaction were pretty unsympathetic to oh anyone, but it wasn't all of them and I don't want to just be going "ololz rich people are bad".
I'll go "ololz rich people are bad", or at least stingy. I know rich people when I walk into their pantry they've got about 10 million condiment packets they've lifted from restaurants. Tip like assholes, too.
I think some people here are confusing low skill with easy. I admit up front that waiting tables is low skill. It only takes a few days to learn everything, if that much at most places. The thing is it starts to get very difficult to do all those things at once when it gets busy, and is something a lot of people have trouble doing.
I think some people here are confusing low skill with easy. I admit up front that waiting tables is low skill. It only takes a few days to learn everything, if that much at most places. The thing is it starts to get very difficult to do all those things at once when it gets busy, and is something a lot of people have trouble doing.
I never said it's easy. Fuck it's not, but it's not the most heavily skilled jobs in the world. Everyone can do the job itself, though. It's a good way to make money, and I don't know how we got off on this tangent really.
And that aside, tipping on carryout, are you kidding me? I don't pay the chef to put the food in a bowl at the restaurant, it's no different for carryout, just different containers. If I go to a place regularly, I will tip for the food itself, though.
Do people really expect 15% on an $80 meal though? Is the service that more valuable there than on a $12 plate at Applebee's?
Most of the time? Yes it is. The waiters at the higher end restaurants do, sometimes, quite a bit more work than those at Applebee's. To keep the scale of dining high, you'd have to pay everyone more. That's why it's a percentage and not a flat rate. "All waiters get tipped $2.50 for reflling drinks, and $3 for carrying the plate, and $1.75 for clearing the table and delivering the check." I notice a lot more attention is given at higher-scale establishments with fine dining restaurants being the absolute best on average. That's not to say I haven't gotten exceptionally fucking great service at Applebee's. But I tipped proportionately.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Do people really expect 15% on an $80 meal though?
Minimum.
Really if you're tipping on an 80$ meal (I assume you mean per person) the service ought to match the cost of the food. Plus you're probably also tipping, or at least should be, for the atmosphere in that restaurant.
Well I personally think it's silly that I'm paying 130% of the prices listed on the menu (I have ~10% sales tax where I live), especially when service is only mediocre in an expensive restaurant.
Plus you're probably also tipping, or at least should be, for the atmosphere in that restaurant.
meh, that's rolled into the cost of the food. The tip already reflects it, and the waiter has no control over it.
the atmosphere doesn't directly affect the tips I leave.
I concur with the other bit though.
The atmosphere is not all rolled into the costs of the food. I know that in at least some restaurants the servers have to provide and maintain their own clothing, which can be significantly more expensive in a fancy restaurant than at Chili's. The standards of grooming and appearance are much higher, and thus much costlier.
I know I went through several expensive-ass shirts working at a more upscale restaurant, as well as a couple pairs of expensive-ass shoes. And ruined a few ties as well. Didn't care, though, because I was taking home $100 on a good weekend night (and that was just tip-outs as a busser).
This reminds me of an odd thing I noticed. In my experience the best tippers are the lower-middle and middle class (in general, there are of course exceptions). The trailer-parks actually even tipped me pretty well, though understandably not all people in the lower-class economically can afford to be making big tips. As to the upper-middle and upper-class, I guess they didn't get where they are by being free with their money?
The working poor are one of the groups of people that donate the highest percentage of their income to charity. It's been my experience that this applies to tipping as well, which makes sense when you think about it.
I think that the internet has been for years on the path to creating what is essentially an electronic Necronomicon: A collection of blasphemous unrealities so perverse that to even glimpse at its contents, if but for a moment, is to irrevocably forfeit a portion of your sanity.
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If you ever need to talk to someone, feel free to message me. Yes, that includes you.
Plus you're probably also tipping, or at least should be, for the atmosphere in that restaurant.
meh, that's rolled into the cost of the food. The tip already reflects it, and the waiter has no control over it.
the atmosphere doesn't directly affect the tips I leave.
I concur with the other bit though.
The atmosphere is not all rolled into the costs of the food. I know that in at least some restaurants the servers have to provide and maintain their own clothing, which can be significantly more expensive in a fancy restaurant than at Chili's. The standards of grooming and appearance are much higher, and thus much costlier.
I know I went through several expensive-ass shirts working at a more upscale restaurant, as well as a couple pairs of expensive-ass shoes. And ruined a few ties as well. Didn't care, though, because I was taking home $100 on a good weekend night (and that was just tip-outs as a busser).
point taken, I thought he was talking about shit on the walls for some reason. Still doesn't effect how I tip, cause I tip based on % of the bill, and they tend be proportional... yeah...
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Okay, I'll amend "many people" to "good people," a group I consider myself in. I don't really know how many people, or what percentage of people, tip for the right reasons.
However, I don't think the right reason to tip is "because I'm paying the server's wage," and I really never will. They should either fix the way wait staff wages work or whatever but leave me out of all that. I'll just tip based on what I consider the fundamental point of tipping: to reward good service.
Suggests but does not prove.
Are you suggesting that people who live in places where tipping, due to being unnecessary, is uncustomary, and so don't tip 20% at every meal are not "good people"? That's a dangerous argument.
Well, prove that your tipping habits would be the same if you had lived in Canada your entire life and you'll have one up on me.
Uncustomary? No. Like in England, tipping is not customary. In America, though, tipping for good service is customary.
So it really has less to do with strictly rewarding good service and more to do with customs.
It has to do with both. In our culture, rewarding good service is a custom. In other cultures, it isn't. Why is this difficult to comprehend? The fact that it is custom does not invalidate the fact that you are rewarding for good service. And it doesn't necessarily make our culture any better than a culture that doesn't incorporate this custom, nor does it make a culture that doesn't any worse than ours, but within this context, yes, it is both customary and good to tip for the purpose of rewarding good service.
Neither my immediate nor fundamental reason for tipping is "this is custom" but the fact that it is custom has guided me to the belief that it is appropriate to tip for good service. I am, however, not willing to write off other cultures that arrive at different philosophies and actions because of different customs.
I tip because it's customary. If it were to "reward good service," I wouldn't tip for mediocre or slightly bad service.
I don't believe it is customary to "tip slightly bad service," sorry, at least not in general. Maybe it is something you were personally raised to do, but I think the general American mindset is to tip for good service. What you do for any other kind of service is pretty much up to you.
Good service = dismounting AFTER the song ends.
Slightly bad service = dismounting BEFORE the song ends to ask me if I want another service, even if she's hot.
Wait, are we still talking about restaurants?
If I get particularly good service, then I'll tip as they are going beyond what their basic wage covers. It also encourages the crap waiters to be better.
Actually, I don't mind that whatsoever. If an establishment is upfront as to what you are expected to pay, then that is absolutely fine with me. It's true that the establishment may require you to accept service which you are then expected to pay for, instead of allowing you the option to run to the kitchen, prepare, and carry the food yourself, but you know that when you walk into a restaurant anyway and if you didn't, you could also walk right out and go to a buffet place or whatever. Telling you "service not included" and then mandating service isn't really a contradiction.
I wouldn't have EVER known some states pay waiters less then minimum wage unless my cousin told me. I have this stupid disease that makes me think "minimum wage" should mean that's the minimum people get paid. What I am saying is that some people never even consider this in their tipping habits because they don't know.
Seriously. Fast Food people of all people should fundamentally get paid more then other places. If people don't think that work a day at taco bell during rush.
I don't know, you come across as one of those people who'd go, "Man, that dude was a complete dick, he only gave me a penny." Instead of, "Man, I only got a penny, I wonder what the fuck did I do wrong today?"
Servers (or bartenders) tend to think they're the most entitled people in the world, and that they could do nothing wrong, ever. I've met some nice servers, but I've also met some pretty dickish servers too. Your tips are strictly a reward for good or decent service, not because they're expected.
And this is exactly why. If you don't like the business, don't be in it.
Must be good money though, for something that doesn't take any education other than some simple skills that almost anyone short of someone with mental handicaps should have. By the way, that's why it's considered "low-skill." Bar-tending is not the same as serving, at all. It's a more skilled labor, although it's in the same service field. More like the next step up the ladder.
Just because your wages are disproportionately high compared to other skilled labors, doesn't take away from the fact that the skills it takes to serve are not on par with say, knowing how to configure a network system, or knowing how to clean spy-ware off someone's PC. (not necessarily bar-tending, remember, that's a completely different job but is still considered a "service" field) It's just not the same skill level. I'd hazard a guess that most people, regardless of their schooling could be a server (and pick it up relatively quickly), however, I do not believe the same to be true for most everything else. And just because you can, doesn't mean everyone else can. I'd wager we can pick someone at random from a local diner and ask them to set up a business network they'd go, "What?" So, yeah, low-skilled. /rant
I'm sorry if I offend anyone by saying it's low-skilled. It's just not the same as a car-mechanic, a doctor, a computer specialist, etc.
You've also clearly never worked as a waiter. Especially in a fine dining restaurant.
Good for you, but you don't have to know everything that motivates social convention in order for social convention to be motivated by it.
People take 4 years university to hopefully get a higher return later on in life (higher salary than 'low-skilled') Because not only did the person not get paid during those 4 years (unless if they had a part time job) they had to pay 20k/year (or whatever number) for the education.
Anyways, one thing I notice quite a few people saying is 'if they provide shitty service, they just get a shitty tip'.
WHY THE FUCK do you give ANY tip whatsoever on shitty service?
If it is shitty service it should be NO TIP.
Basically this is my train of thought from now on
Horrible service = 1 cent tip (or if credit card, write ZERO on tip line)
Average service = you doing your job so low tip (10% max)... and only because I feel pressured into doing so
Above average/superior service = 15-20% tip.
Now I rarely go out to eat at a restaurant (maybe 5 times per year) so the line between average service and superior service can be a bit cloudy for me.
But if you guys think I'm a dick for my 'low tipping' how about you fuck right off since it is a TIP on how well I think they did their job.
I don't see their pay stubs so I don't give a fuck what their owner is paying them. I have no clue if a person is being paid $3 an hour or $15 so why should I subsidise their wage on the chance that they may be getting paid $5 an hour. Most people say if you don't like the work FIND ANOTHER FUCKING JOB.
If you keep bitching about your wage why don't you find a job that pays what you are expecting? Oh ya because it is considered a low skilled position (education wise) so you probably didnt put your time in University for the required skills for a better job. So quit bitching or go to school.
'Standards' can go fuck themselves. The price on the meal + tax is what is EXPECTED to pay.. any more than that is a bonus that can be any amount that I find I am comfortable with / what I think you deserve.
I don't tip my barber, he is doing his SOLE job of cutting my hair / sweeping up hair.
I don't tip my mail main or newspaper delivery person because that is their job.
Only reason waiters get tipped is because for some odd fucked up reason, it became a social standard in North America, the reason, IMO, only God knows why.
And I dont give a shit if you think I am a bad customer. Watch me give a shit. Like I said I only eat out a couple times a year so you wont have to deal with me on a regular basis. Sorry that you are "expecting" bigger tip than I gave. Go cry some more or find another job.
You may or may not be completely wrong.
It takes no skills other than something remedial. I mean, if you can land the space-shuttle while picking up the tray and carrying it over to the guy in seat 11, and asking him if he'd like some more coke, then okay.
Thus, low-skilled. Someone who has never attended high school (maybe even with no school at all, as long as they're not socially inept) could do the job and earn the standard tip.
Tipping your maître d' is a different ballgame entirely. And I'm talking actual fine dining, not some local restaurant that is allowed to serve wine and has a candlestick in the center of the table. Anyone can still remember what wine would be recommended with what meal, or even bullshit enough to go "I'm not sure what wine the chef is recommending tonight for this meal, let me double check for you fine folks."
Kind of, but this is simplifying things. It takes more training (let's use that instead of skill) and a different mind set to serve at a premium wine bar than it does at a diner whose most difficult menu choice is should I choose ribbon cane or maple syrup to go with my chicken and waffles (ribbon cane). With a premium wine bar, you'd have to know what the wines are, what they taste like, how to recommend someone a wine, how to serve them, etc... because the patron's paying a lot of money and expects a certain level of service. At a diner, you can't just throw the food at people, but people aren't expecting their napkins to be folded a certain way and aren't going to have a cow if their chicken isn't piping hot because the waffle iron got stuck.
This reminds me of an odd thing I noticed. In my experience the best tippers are the lower-middle and middle class (in general, there are of course exceptions). The trailer-parks actually even tipped me pretty well, though understandably not all people in the lower-class economically can afford to be making big tips. As to the upper-middle and upper-class, I guess they didn't get where they are by being free with their money?
Edit: I mean some of them you could tell just in the two minutes of interaction were pretty unsympathetic to oh anyone, but it wasn't all of them and I don't want to just be going "ololz rich people are bad".
I'll go "ololz rich people are bad", or at least stingy. I know rich people when I walk into their pantry they've got about 10 million condiment packets they've lifted from restaurants. Tip like assholes, too.
I never said it's easy. Fuck it's not, but it's not the most heavily skilled jobs in the world. Everyone can do the job itself, though. It's a good way to make money, and I don't know how we got off on this tangent really.
And that aside, tipping on carryout, are you kidding me? I don't pay the chef to put the food in a bowl at the restaurant, it's no different for carryout, just different containers. If I go to a place regularly, I will tip for the food itself, though.
Most of the time? Yes it is. The waiters at the higher end restaurants do, sometimes, quite a bit more work than those at Applebee's. To keep the scale of dining high, you'd have to pay everyone more. That's why it's a percentage and not a flat rate. "All waiters get tipped $2.50 for reflling drinks, and $3 for carrying the plate, and $1.75 for clearing the table and delivering the check." I notice a lot more attention is given at higher-scale establishments with fine dining restaurants being the absolute best on average. That's not to say I haven't gotten exceptionally fucking great service at Applebee's. But I tipped proportionately.
Minimum.
Really if you're tipping on an 80$ meal (I assume you mean per person) the service ought to match the cost of the food. Plus you're probably also tipping, or at least should be, for the atmosphere in that restaurant.
meh, that's rolled into the cost of the food. The tip already reflects it, and the waiter has no control over it.
the atmosphere doesn't directly affect the tips I leave.
I concur with the other bit though.
Well I personally think it's silly that I'm paying 130% of the prices listed on the menu (I have ~10% sales tax where I live), especially when service is only mediocre in an expensive restaurant.
The atmosphere is not all rolled into the costs of the food. I know that in at least some restaurants the servers have to provide and maintain their own clothing, which can be significantly more expensive in a fancy restaurant than at Chili's. The standards of grooming and appearance are much higher, and thus much costlier.
I know I went through several expensive-ass shirts working at a more upscale restaurant, as well as a couple pairs of expensive-ass shoes. And ruined a few ties as well. Didn't care, though, because I was taking home $100 on a good weekend night (and that was just tip-outs as a busser).
The working poor are one of the groups of people that donate the highest percentage of their income to charity. It's been my experience that this applies to tipping as well, which makes sense when you think about it.
If you ever need to talk to someone, feel free to message me. Yes, that includes you.