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What the crap is wrong with my internet? Do torrents affect me this much?

OrganichuOrganichu jacobkoshRegistered User regular
Ok guys, here's the issue.

I have a new router I just purchased (Linksys WRT54g2). I brought it home, plugged in the router to the modem, and just my computer into the router. All cool, all good, 5 bars wireless signal, speed fine, etc.

However, as soon as other people plug in it seems to go to shit, especially when they use torrent programs. At first I discounted the torrent issue because they never get an aggregate of more than 40 or 50 kbps... definitely not enough to impact overall web browsing speeds... right?

However, after hours and hours spent configuring the router for Verizon, getting Verizon to set up a 'bridged' mode for my modem. They told me this was a 'better configuration for a router'. I spent hours on the phone configuring my router for that... and Linksys telling me it wasn't bridged properly, and reconfiguring it AGAIN... I got a connection. I was super fast! Then I plugged in the other computers and was slow... hm!

Then I decide, what the heck, and ask my uncle to turn off his Azureus (with his paltry 20-30 total kbps download). Suddenly I'm lightning fast again browsing!

How does this make sense?

When I used to connect directly to my modem, even downloading torrents WAY faster than he is (like, Open Office at 700 kbps), my browsing speed was hardly bothered.

So I guess this all leads back to my round about question:




Why is it that when connected directly to my modem, my computer's basic internet speed (for connecting to IM programs, for browsing the internet, for downloading files from webpages, etc.) is hardly affected by my torrent downloads... but when connected through a router- in several different configurations- a far smaller torrent downloading strain will so severely stunt my browsing speed?

Organichu on

Posts

  • Satan.Satan. __BANNED USERS
    edited May 2008
    Bridging isn't a "better configuration", FYI. I don't know the technicals enough to answer your question but that statement from them is bunk

    Satan. on
  • JaninJanin Registered User
    edited May 2008
    What are your torrenting friends doing WRT upload speed? On my connection, I can get 1.2 MiB/s+ download, but my connection slows entirely to a crawl as soon as I'm uploading more than 30 KiB/s.

    Janin on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • OrganichuOrganichu jacobkosh Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Satan. wrote: »
    Bridging isn't a "better configuration", FYI. I don't know the technicals enough to answer your question but that statement from them is bunk

    Ok, I got ya. Upon reflection I'm thinking that the speeds I'm getting right now are very similar to those even with the old router. So, I guess it's not so much that I'm having a 'problem'... but that I'm confused.

    Organichu on
  • flammiebcflammiebc Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Don't forget, routers have CPUs in them too, and torrents use a fuckload of connections; combined with the fact cheaper linksys routers don't have much in the way of ram or cpu power at all, multiple people using torrents at the same time can be...amusing.

    Though the problem you describe is usually due to your connection's upload capacity being saturated; back when I lived with multiple roommates, I made them all install netlimiter and cap their uploads to 5-6kb/s; helped fix the problem to some extent. Though that number may vary depending on your connection.

    flammiebc on
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  • AzioAzio Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Organichu wrote: »
    Linksys WRT54g2
    There's your problem.

    Why this is happening:
    Even if a torrent only appears to be using up a small fraction of your total bandwidth, it is still making hundreds of connections all at once to different peers, and these need to be forwarded by the router in both directions. That adds up to a lot more work than one $50 router can handle, so when you try to download an image or page from a web site, that single connection request can get lost amid the tens, hundreds, or even thousands of connections that are being generated by the torrent. And Linksys routers are notoriously shitty. The best way to deal with this is to ask the people who use the network to only torrent at night. Ban anyone who disobeys.

    Azio on
  • DírhaelDírhael .noRegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    I'm not running the original firmware on my Linksys WRT54G router, and I barely ever did after purchasing it way back when, so I don't remember if you can configure QoS without installing one of the reasons a person would purchase one of these routers the in the first place; the DD-WRT or Tomato (what I'm using and recommend) firmware. If you can configure if on the stock firmware though, you are looking to set it up to limit uploads to around 80-90% of your upspeed. That alone should help as it sounds like your connection is being choked despite how slow those torrents are going. Also, and this I do think you will need one of the good 3rd party firmwares for, it can help a lot to configure QoS to prioritize traffic on regular ports and lower the priority for any other ports typically used for P2P traffic.

    Dírhael on
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  • OrganichuOrganichu jacobkosh Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Thanks a lot guys.

    1.) I'm not sure how much he uploads. I know he sets his 'upload' cap on Azureus to unlimited so it's probably quite a dramatic amount.

    2.) Limiting how much he uploads sounds like an awesome idea. I know this sounds slimy (but seriously, he can be a real jerk) but I would be ecstatic at the idea of a program that auto-limits his uploading capability (assuming that's, as you guys say, the bottleneck). I would like to do this without even telling him. I think it's really unfair that I pay the internet bill (and I purchased the router) and the only things I really enjoy doing with my computer (browsing the net, posting on forums, watching youtube vids etc.) becomes quite impossible because of his habits. It literally takes me about 20-25 seconds to render www.google.com. No exaggeration here- to render a site with java or flash, say... something like the interactive menu on the acer or asus site... quite literally about 3-4 minutes.

    3.) What would be a better option to accomplish this, an external program or this third party firmware a couple of you mentioned?

    Organichu on
  • squirlysquirly Registered User
    edited May 2008
    I have a similar problem sometimes, depending upon which torrent and/or downloading program I use, some of them can seemingly suck up every bit of bandwidth thus slowing down everything else.

    This is bizarre because, say, if I'm using a download manager like DownThemAll I can still browse, etc but if I use something like Flashget, forget about browsing.

    Same with comparing uTorrent to other programs, with uTorrent I generally can do other stuff but some others just rape my connection. I think it also depends upon the config as I've had uTorrent do this as well but it generally doesn't.

    It's a mystery, an annoying one.

    squirly on
    Diablo2 [US West; Ladder]: *DorianGraph [New/Main] *outsidewhale [Old]
  • DeusfauxDeusfaux Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    on a typical broadband connection, with a max upload of say 60kbps, any torrent seed rate above 30 can really choke the connection entirely.

    Deusfaux on
  • theSquidtheSquid Sydney, AustraliaRegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Make sure they limit their download and upload speeds, do bridge the connection because you should never be running through 2 NATs (there's absolutely no point), and use uPNP if available (I believe on that model it is)

    theSquid on
  • OrganichuOrganichu jacobkosh Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    uPNP is enabled... what's the best way to limit their download and upload speeds? I downloaded the tomato firmware but none of the .bin files worked, all gave error messages.

    Organichu on
  • DírhaelDírhael .noRegistered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Organichu wrote: »
    uPNP is enabled... what's the best way to limit their download and upload speeds? I downloaded the tomato firmware but none of the .bin files worked, all gave error messages.

    It is possible that you have one of the models that they [Linksys] raped in terms of installed memory, in which case I don't think you'll be able to use a custom firmware. You could try looking at the WRT54G wikipedia page and see if you can locate your model. I have the WRT54GL model, so the Tomato firmware that works for me is the WRT54G_WRT54GL.bin file.

    Dírhael on
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  • OrganichuOrganichu jacobkosh Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Dìrhael wrote: »
    Organichu wrote: »
    uPNP is enabled... what's the best way to limit their download and upload speeds? I downloaded the tomato firmware but none of the .bin files worked, all gave error messages.

    It is possible that you have one of the models that they [Linksys] raped in terms of installed memory, in which case I don't think you'll be able to use a custom firmware. You could try looking at the WRT54G wikipedia page and see if you can locate your model. I have the WRT54GL model, so the Tomato firmware that works for me is the WRT54G_WRT54GL.bin file.

    Ah yes, on the Wikipedia page it'd seem there is no third party firmware available for my particular router.

    Organichu on
  • Satan.Satan. __BANNED USERS
    edited May 2008
    Organichu wrote: »
    Dìrhael wrote: »
    Organichu wrote: »
    uPNP is enabled... what's the best way to limit their download and upload speeds? I downloaded the tomato firmware but none of the .bin files worked, all gave error messages.

    It is possible that you have one of the models that they [Linksys] raped in terms of installed memory, in which case I don't think you'll be able to use a custom firmware. You could try looking at the WRT54G wikipedia page and see if you can locate your model. I have the WRT54GL model, so the Tomato firmware that works for me is the WRT54G_WRT54GL.bin file.

    Ah yes, on the Wikipedia page it'd seem there is no third party firmware available for my particular router.

    This is 'up shit creek without a paddle' time. Other than the horribly awkward roommate confrontation, your only real solution is to buy a router with QoS or buy a router that would support third party firmware.

    Satan. on
  • JaninJanin Registered User
    edited May 2008
    Or just set your uncle's upload cap to something low, and tell him why. If he's reasonable, there won't be any fallout from it.

    Janin on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • OrganichuOrganichu jacobkosh Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    lulz from DSLreports:

    Speed Test #51814318 by dslreports.com
    Run: 2008-05-31 18:48:29 EST
    Download: 112 (Kbps)
    Upload: 16 (Kbps)
    In kilobytes per second: 13.6 down 1.9 up
    Boost: 115
    Latency: 1403 ms
    Tested by server: 9 flash
    User: anonymous
    User's DNS: verizon.net
    Compared to the average of 985 tests from verizon.net:
    * download is 97% worse, upload is 98% worse


    So, there is some QoS in my default firmware... I see my first option as:

    "Upstream Bandwidth: (drop down menu with 'auto' or 'manual'). So, if I select manual what is a reasonable rate? I'm pretty sure my upstream is supposed to be 768 kbps. Some people say 'around 85%'. I'm going to set it for 650 right now. Will report back.

    Organichu on
  • OrganichuOrganichu jacobkosh Registered User regular
    edited May 2008
    Hah!

    Thanks a lot, guys. I have it set to 650 and while not 'blindingly' fast, I'm actually able to load an image heavy page inside of a minute. :) I'll fiddle around with it to find a good medium. I appreciate it, all!

    Organichu on
  • Satan.Satan. __BANNED USERS
    edited May 2008
    Organichu wrote: »
    Hah!

    Thanks a lot, guys. I have it set to 650 and while not 'blindingly' fast, I'm actually able to load an image heavy page inside of a minute. :) I'll fiddle around with it to find a good medium. I appreciate it, all!

    Does that actually let you QoS based on certain clients, or is that an overall setting? Just clarifying before you gimp yourself.

    Satan. on
  • ImprovoloneImprovolone Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Organichu wrote: »
    Hah!

    Thanks a lot, guys. I have it set to 650 and while not 'blindingly' fast, I'm actually able to load an image heavy page inside of a minute. :) I'll fiddle around with it to find a good medium. I appreciate it, all!

    You tested it with porn, didn't you?

    Improvolone on
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  • OrganichuOrganichu jacobkosh Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Satan. wrote: »
    Organichu wrote: »
    Hah!

    Thanks a lot, guys. I have it set to 650 and while not 'blindingly' fast, I'm actually able to load an image heavy page inside of a minute. :) I'll fiddle around with it to find a good medium. I appreciate it, all!

    Does that actually let you QoS based on certain clients, or is that an overall setting? Just clarifying before you gimp yourself.

    Hey Satan.

    That's the overall upstream bandwidth, not for a particular device/port/application. So far I can browse the net fine, but I'll definitely have to look at getting more particular and finding a more comprehensive solution if I find that this begins to mess up things.

    Organichu on
  • OrganichuOrganichu jacobkosh Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Organichu wrote: »
    Hah!

    Thanks a lot, guys. I have it set to 650 and while not 'blindingly' fast, I'm actually able to load an image heavy page inside of a minute. :) I'll fiddle around with it to find a good medium. I appreciate it, all!

    You tested it with porn, didn't you?

    Get out of my head.

    Organichu on
  • OrganichuOrganichu jacobkosh Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Wow... I know some people think Comcast is the devil, but apparently they're running a great deal.

    My Verizon DSL connection: 3 Mbps down, 768 Kbps up (price $46.99/mth)
    My Verizon phone: all features included, free long distance, 3-way, etc. (price $49.99/mth)

    Potential Comcast connection: 16 Mbps down, 2 Mbps up (price first 6 months, $22.99/mth, after, $42.99/mth)
    Potential Comcast phone: all features included, free long distance, 3-way, etc. (price first 6 month, $22.99/mth, after, $39.95/mth)

    I'm looking at a savings of around $300 over the first 6 months and then another $13/mth thereafter... for a better internet connection.

    What say ye, Arcadians? Am I missing something?

    Organichu on
  • MrDelishMrDelish Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Organichu wrote: »
    Wow... I know some people think Comcast is the devil, but apparently they're running a great deal.

    My Verizon DSL connection: 3 Mbps down, 768 Kbps up (price $46.99/mth)
    My Verizon phone: all features included, free long distance, 3-way, etc. (price $49.99/mth)

    Potential Comcast connection: 16 Mbps down, 2 Mbps up (price first 6 months, $22.99/mth, after, $42.99/mth)
    Potential Comcast phone: all features included, free long distance, 3-way, etc. (price first 6 month, $22.99/mth, after, $39.95/mth)

    I'm looking at a savings of around $300 over the first 6 months and then another $13/mth thereafter... for a better internet connection.

    What say ye, Arcadians? Am I missing something?

    it's still Comcast :P

    MrDelish on
  • DeusfauxDeusfaux Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    call verizon and tell em why you're switching (you're not really)

    they'll lower your prices and/or bump up your service to compete

    Deusfaux on
  • Satan.Satan. __BANNED USERS
    edited June 2008
    Organichu wrote: »
    Satan. wrote: »
    Organichu wrote: »
    Hah!

    Thanks a lot, guys. I have it set to 650 and while not 'blindingly' fast, I'm actually able to load an image heavy page inside of a minute. :) I'll fiddle around with it to find a good medium. I appreciate it, all!

    Does that actually let you QoS based on certain clients, or is that an overall setting? Just clarifying before you gimp yourself.

    Hey Satan.

    That's the overall upstream bandwidth, not for a particular device/port/application. So far I can browse the net fine, but I'll definitely have to look at getting more particular and finding a more comprehensive solution if I find that this begins to mess up things.

    Ah. The QoS we've been mentioning will allow you to gimp his connection and allow you access to the full pipe. It sounds like this has fixed your problem, so that's just an FYI I suppose.

    Satan. on
  • DixonDixon Screwed...possibly doomed CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited June 2008
    I'm not sure if your still looking into this matter but the best way to stop the mass of connections he will be getting is by limiting the UDP and TCP ports. I know with some torrent applications you can set it to use a certain range of ports only for connections and even if you can't do this on the torrent app you can setup profiles in the router to only allow a certain number of incoming and outogoing connections. This would probablly alleviate the problem

    Dixon on
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