I'm not talking about clicking with in-jokes, I'm talking about how there's a SE wow clan, a SE gametag list, etc, like I mentioned in my first post.
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VivixenneRemember your training, and we'll get through this just fine.Registered Userregular
edited June 2008
well maybe they just like playing games with other SE++ers because they spend more time talking to them on the forums because of everything I stated in my previous post; they are simply more familiar with one another
for instance I prefer the SE++ Vent Server over the GnT one simply because I know more people on the SE++ Vent Server via the forum
[EDIT]
look man all I know is that you asked for an explanation as to why SE++ is segregated when it's not supposed to be and the explanation is the same across all social interaction
the more time you spend interacting (voluntarily) with someone, the closer you are going to be with them and the more you are going to want to interact with that someone
whether it's cliques WITHIN SE++ or SE++ being a clique in its own right
that's just how it's gonna be
so I mean you make a thread for, say, WoW, right
you have SE++'s own WoW guild as opposed to the GnT one, and that's explained away by my first statements in this post
and you have SE++'s WoW guild WITHIN SE++ itself, which is explained away by the fact that people who spend more time playing WoW together are going to have more relevant things to say about that WoW guild than someone who doesn't play WoW with them would
If SE++ can be a chat section with game threads, then why shouldn't G&T be a game section with chat threads?
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VivixenneRemember your training, and we'll get through this just fine.Registered Userregular
edited June 2008
I don't know why anyone would obsess over separation in the forums
it happens in ALL social interaction, online or off
SOMEONE is going to SEE that there is a separation even when it is not intentionally put there; there are NO actual lines in the sand that say YOU CAN'T CROSS THIS LINE BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT ONE OF US
you get closer to some people because you click better with them or you spend more time with them, and therefore some people you are NOT as close to MIGHT end up feeling left out or erstwhile "separated" from you and your group
whether it's within SE++ or SE++ vs. the rest of the forum or any other perceived "subcommunity" in any social setting, that's just how it works
the "division" is strictly natural and it is only applicable (or tangible, if you will), if you perceive it as being a wall or barrier or otherwise something that is put there to CREATE a separation
those with some level of social maturity will understand that the separation only exists in perception and is easily traversed/removed just by continued interaction with the members of the perceived "subcommunity"
though if you are not interested in or do not play WoW, you may find that "joining" that subcommunity is significantly harder, in which case I ask you why you are wanting to join a "subcommunity" that is based around an activity or interest that you do not even share
ok, so if I'm with my social circle of GnT and want to talk about non-games, I have to leave my social circle and talk to new people in SE++. Other people from my social circle may also post in there, but it's still having to learn another social circle.
if SE is chilling with their social circle of SE, and they want to play a game, they make a thread in their own social circle of SE and have fun with people they click better with.
replace GnT and non-games with their appropriate terms for the other forums, I'll ask again why go to any other forum when SE has it all?
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VivixenneRemember your training, and we'll get through this just fine.Registered Userregular
edited June 2008
that's pretty much down to the forum rules, right there, which is what we all said earlier about on-topic vs. off-topic
shit Pika you post in SE++ too, you know this
a thread is created, and regardless of the topic it wanders off-course for about 20 pages, yo-yos back, then gets thrown out all over again
no thread in SE++ remains topical for very long unless it is not a popular topic and in that case only people with something related to the OP to say will say it
with a popular topic (such as a game), a conversation just goes as it would always go when a lot of people throw in their 2 cents; tangents are explored, etc, and the original topic is lost
I guess my point is that if someone wants to talk in-depth about a game and everything related to THAT game, GnT is still the best place to go
for a layman's discussion of a game, SE++ is probably the better choice
You say that, maybe SE++ people have different discussions regarding games than G&T does, so they get to have game threads. Well maybe G&T people have an alternate view on internet memes. Maybe CF people bring a unique perspective to discussions on Lost. By your rationale, they should be able to discuss whatever they want in their own forums, seeing as their unique perspective is too fragile for SE, right?
You can't have it both ways. Either game threads and serious discussion stay in their bins, or other forums get the right to go off-topic. Having a subforum which can cross the line 'just because' is a compromise.
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BroloBroseidonLord of the BroceanRegistered Userregular
ok, so if I'm with my social circle of GnT and want to talk about non-games, I have to leave my social circle and talk to new people in SE++. Other people from my social circle may also post in there, but it's still having to learn another social circle.
if SE is chilling with their social circle of SE, and they want to play a game, they make a thread in their own social circle of SE and have fun with people they click better with.
replace GnT and non-games with their appropriate terms for the other forums, I'll ask again why go to any other forum when SE has it all?
Because you go to SE when you want conversation that can and will veer off-topic, but if you want to talk specifically about a certain game without deviating from that subject you go to G&T?
ok, so if I'm with my social circle of GnT and want to talk about non-games, I have to leave my social circle and talk to new people in SE++. Other people from my social circle may also post in there, but it's still having to learn another social circle.
if SE is chilling with their social circle of SE, and they want to play a game, they make a thread in their own social circle of SE and have fun with people they click better with.
replace GnT and non-games with their appropriate terms for the other forums, I'll ask again why go to any other forum when SE has it all?
Because you go to SE when you want conversation that can and will veer off-topic, but if you want to talk specifically about a certain game without deviating from that subject you go to G&T?
So when people want to talk seriously about MGS4 they'll go reads the GnT thread then when they want to post something off-topic, they'll go to the SE++ thread, get into the discussion of that thread then post something off-topic.
If SE wants to talk seriously they post in the SE thread. If SE wants to post something off-topic they post in the same thread. If they want to post on topic they quote the last on-topic post and continue posting.
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VivixenneRemember your training, and we'll get through this just fine.Registered Userregular
They have different discussions because they're different social groups talking in different threads.
not really
I have yet to see a single SE++ thread that is dominated by a single group of posters who were unwelcoming or hostile to any other poster who did not post regularly in the thread
I mean even the SE++ WoW thread is perfectly okay to post in even if you are not in their guild
but why you would want to post in it when you have no interest in the underlying (if obscured) topic of discussion in the first place is beyond me
ok, so if I'm with my social circle of GnT and want to talk about non-games, I have to leave my social circle and talk to new people in SE++. Other people from my social circle may also post in there, but it's still having to learn another social circle.
if SE is chilling with their social circle of SE, and they want to play a game, they make a thread in their own social circle of SE and have fun with people they click better with.
replace GnT and non-games with their appropriate terms for the other forums, I'll ask again why go to any other forum when SE has it all?
Because you go to SE when you want conversation that can and will veer off-topic, but if you want to talk specifically about a certain game without deviating from that subject you go to G&T?
So when people want to talk seriously about MGS4 they'll go reads the GnT thread then when they want to post something off-topic, they'll go to the SE++ thread, get into the discussion of that thread then post something off-topic.
If SE wants to talk seriously they post in the SE thread. If SE wants to post something off-topic they post in the same thread. If they want to post on topic they quote the last on-topic post and continue posting.
that's pretty much the beauty of SE++, yes
if only because "talking seriously" in SE++ is a different level of serious from anything I've yet to see from the other forums
for instance, I don't post in D&D even though many of their discussions run parallel in topic with SE++, simply because I don't want to go into the depth that many other posters in D&D often go into
ok, so if I'm with my social circle of GnT and want to talk about non-games, I have to leave my social circle and talk to new people in SE++. Other people from my social circle may also post in there, but it's still having to learn another social circle.
if SE is chilling with their social circle of SE, and they want to play a game, they make a thread in their own social circle of SE and have fun with people they click better with.
replace GnT and non-games with their appropriate terms for the other forums, I'll ask again why go to any other forum when SE has it all?
Because you go to SE when you want conversation that can and will veer off-topic, but if you want to talk specifically about a certain game without deviating from that subject you go to G&T?
So when people want to talk seriously about MGS4 they'll go reads the GnT thread then when they want to post something off-topic, they'll go to the SE++ thread, get into the discussion of that thread then post something off-topic.
If SE wants to talk seriously they post in the SE thread. If SE wants to post something off-topic they post in the same thread. If they want to post on topic they quote the last on-topic post and continue posting.
Yes, because there's a rule stating that the on-topic forums have to stay on-topic.
There's no rule saying the off-topic forums have to stay off-topic. I don't see how (or why) you'd enforce that.
What posters should realize is that for socializing and other things of that nature, they're free to use SE.
Moe FwackyRight Here, Right NowDrives a BuickModeratormod
edited June 2008
The only reason that having an off-topic conversation requires you to interact with a different group of people than you would interact with in an on-topic conversation is because everybody doesn't use SE for off-topic discussion and general socializing.
This isn't a problem with forum division, it's a problem with people not utilizing what is available for their use.
You know, I think if you delve into the forum history books, all the other forums are actually sub-forums of SE++. There used to only be one Penny Arcade forum, that predates even my membership, and I forget the name. Might have been pit of hate, might have been something else, there was some funny things went on with server migrations and name changes and what not. But basically, it was just an anything goes chat forum, which eventually evolved into Social Entropy ++. The other forums, I believe, spawned from a desire to have special places (other than the butt) to discuss things in a more serious face manner without going off topic or flaming.
The other forums owe their existence to SE++, not the other way around. You kids would do well to remember that *wags finger*
then why go anywhere else except to form segregation and cliques?
ohhhh this is what you meant
as in the threads themselves forming cliques?
I honestly don't think I have seen that problem
if you see a thread about a topic you don't care about, you are not going to post in it while others who are interested in it are going to post in it and that means you are automatically not involved in the thread
how is this hard to understand
I'm asking why there are other forums if SE is the everything forum? Why have other sections if SE already has all sections covered? Why would SE need to go to other forums and have inter-forum relations if they could just make their own thread? SE might mingle into other forums, but when things don't go their way or they don't like the people there and don't feel like mingling, they can just make their own thread in their own forum.
Because SE is an off topic forum and a lot of people don't want to post in a forum that doesn't stay on topic.
Because SE++ people do not mingle with G&T people well. SE++ people are talented assholes, G&T are . . .
are . . .
are . . .
Please try not to answer questions directed at the administrative if staff if
A. You don't know what you're talking about
B. You're a thundering cretin
How difficult is it to understand how an off-topic chat forum functions independantly of several on-topic forums? How d
I see the same people making the same exact unevolved arguments they've been making for years here. I can only assume these people are being purposfully obtuse just so they can complain about stuff, like the blankety blank that was removed from blankety blank awhile back.
Even if you had a logical point (you don't) does it really hurt you that "games" can be discussed in two forums - one, an on-topic forum that strives to keep discussions on-track to whatever the thread is about, and the other, an off-topic forum where you can go from talking about Bioshock to pizza to pedophilia to Spider-Man to felching back to pizza and then back to Bioshock - or what? I mean, really.
The reason these problems exist isn't because there are cliques, it's because people create problems in their head and act as if they exist. That causes problems.
And if you really don't get it, go click on one of the other hundreds of thousands of forums out there. Gaming forums, art forums, literature forums, etc...almost every single one of these has a separate off-topic forum. And I haven't seen one with a rule that says "no discussing literature/games/art on the off-topic forum!" because that's nonsense. Does that mean Penny-Arcade needs to follow suit? No. But it does mean that it isn't as nonsensical as some people are suggesting.
Playing dumb isn't going to get you the G&T chat thread back and it isn't going to get people to stop talking about games, graphic art, or whatever else in SE++. Ugh.
I would assume that the people who don't post in SE++ largely don't do so because they don't like that board's style. Expecting us to alter our tastes to enjoy SE++ is as unreasonable as expecting SE++ to change to suit us.
That's probably the source of a good deal of the bitterness over the loss of chat threads in G&T. Regardless of whether it was a good thing for the forum in general, the way that it was done gave the impression that the admins didn't care about what the posters wanted, that they expected us to change to match the forums instead of the forums becoming something that matched the style of discourse that we wanted to have. If a stronger case had been made for how eliminating them would help the forum, or if concerns hadn't simply been brushed off with statements to switch to SE++, much of the grief that resulted might have been preventable.
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BroloBroseidonLord of the BroceanRegistered Userregular
I would assume that the people who don't post in SE++ largely don't do so because they don't like that board's style. Expecting us to alter our tastes to enjoy SE++ is as unreasonable as expecting SE++ to change to suit us.
That's probably the source of a good deal of the bitterness over the loss of chat threads in G&T. Regardless of whether it was a good thing for the forum in general, the way that it was done gave the impression that the admins didn't care about what the posters wanted, that they expected us to change to match the forums instead of the forums becoming something that matched the style of discourse that we wanted to have. If a stronger case had been made for how eliminating them would help the forum, or if concerns hadn't simply been brushed off with statements to switch to SE++, much of the grief that resulted might have been preventable.
Still, the admins have made it clear the chat thread is gone for good, so there's little point in bringing that up now.
I would assume that the people who don't post in SE++ largely don't do so because they don't like that board's style. Expecting us to alter our tastes to enjoy SE++ is as unreasonable as expecting SE++ to change to suit us.
That's probably the source of a good deal of the bitterness over the loss of chat threads in G&T. Regardless of whether it was a good thing for the forum in general, the way that it was done gave the impression that the admins didn't care about what the posters wanted, that they expected us to change to match the forums instead of the forums becoming something that matched the style of discourse that we wanted to have. If a stronger case had been made for how eliminating them would help the forum, or if concerns hadn't simply been brushed off with statements to switch to SE++, much of the grief that resulted might have been preventable.
See this is a misconception. SE++ doesn't have to alter its style. Its style is determined by the people that post there. If more of you started posting there, the styles would eventually mesh after a period of awkwardness. The key is to mesh the positive aspects of each posting style and discard the negative.
Which loops back around to the original point of this thread:
People who consider G&T to be their main board should be doing their socializing and off-topic stuff in SE++, but most of them don't seem to.
Is there any way to foster their participation in the chat/off-topic forum?
Some people don't post off-topic at all. Anyone that posts off-topic stuff should, as you say, post that specific stuff in SE++.
However, you wrote "should be doing their socializing...in SE++" which is completely, 100% false, unless you don't consider G&T to be some form of social interaction. I mean, they can't slap each other's balls and ask "how's the wife and kids?" in an on-topic Bioshock thread, but if they really want to do that, then they can go do that in SE++. You can lead a horse to water and you can drown him in the water but turning the horse into glue is a long, complicated process that we shouldn't bother with. Or something.
The thing is, all forums are chat forums. The purpose of a forum is to give a place for people to, well, chat. The only difference between G&T and SE++ is that G&T has restrictions on how you may chat (the topics must be related to games or technology or both, and each thread should relate to the thread topic and original post) while SE++ does not, save the obvious common taboos for all Penny-Arcade chat forums. Personally, I think this is a good thing. And frankly, I think it's retarded to suggest that anyone should be "forced" to participate in the off-topic forums. Why should anyone be "forced" to post anywhere? The only thing that should be enforced is where NOT to post (given the content being posted). If you want to post about some scab on your forehead, then you should post in H/A if you want help and in SE++ if you want to be told you have herpes. Even if PA were comprised mostly of 13 year olds, which it isn't, I think even at 13 you should know enough about life to comprehend the basic, fundamental mechanics of web forum structure.
This is like complaining that people who go to the gym only go to the treadmills and that they don't go on the cycles. If they want to cycle, they can take their fat asses over to the cycles. And if they want to run, they can run. And some people want to complain ad nauseum that there are no cycles in the treadmill section. Well, "tough titties" is my personal opinion of that particular complaint.
I would assume that the people who don't post in SE++ largely don't do so because they don't like that board's style. Expecting us to alter our tastes to enjoy SE++ is as unreasonable as expecting SE++ to change to suit us.
But you know what's not unreasonable? Asking/expecting both parties to adapt to each other.
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BroloBroseidonLord of the BroceanRegistered Userregular
Which loops back around to the original point of this thread:
People who consider G&T to be their main board should be doing their socializing and off-topic stuff in SE++, but most of them don't seem to.
Is there any way to foster their participation in the chat/off-topic forum?
Some people don't post off-topic at all. Anyone that posts off-topic stuff should, as you say, post that specific stuff in SE++.
However, you wrote "should be doing their socializing...in SE++" which is completely, 100% false, unless you don't consider G&T to be some form of social interaction. I mean, they can't slap each other's balls and ask "how's the wife and kids?" in an on-topic Bioshock thread, but if they really want to do that, then they can go do that in SE++. You can lead a horse to water and you can drown him in the water but turning the horse into glue is a long, complicated process that we shouldn't bother with. Or something.
I wrote "socializing and off-topic stuff", meaning things that fall outside of the realms of Games and Technology, or the other on-topic forums. I think a lot of them might want to do that, and SE++ is the only appropriate place for them to do it in, but for whatever reason they don't. I'm not sure what the answer to this is, or if there even is one.
Which loops back around to the original point of this thread:
People who consider G&T to be their main board should be doing their socializing and off-topic stuff in SE++, but most of them don't seem to.
Is there any way to foster their participation in the chat/off-topic forum?
Some people don't post off-topic at all. Anyone that posts off-topic stuff should, as you say, post that specific stuff in SE++.
However, you wrote "should be doing their socializing...in SE++" which is completely, 100% false, unless you don't consider G&T to be some form of social interaction. I mean, they can't slap each other's balls and ask "how's the wife and kids?" in an on-topic Bioshock thread, but if they really want to do that, then they can go do that in SE++. You can lead a horse to water and you can drown him in the water but turning the horse into glue is a long, complicated process that we shouldn't bother with. Or something.
I wrote "socializing and off-topic stuff", meaning things that fall outside of the realms of Games and Technology, or the other on-topic forums. I think a lot of them might want to do that, and SE++ is the only appropriate place for them to do it in, but for whatever reason they don't. I'm not sure what the answer to this is, or if there even is one.
The thing is, SE++ is already filled with old SE++ people as well as many old G&T people. I mean, it already has evolved into a melting pot community. Hell, I think most of the Writer's Block regulars post in SE++ (which admittedly can't be a very high number), but still...it's not like SE++ is SE++ vs. The World here. Yes, a "chat" community did exist before G&T's chat thread was taken away and yes, G&T was asked/expected to inegrate, and yes, SE++ was equally asked to not be xenophobic during the transition period.
But there was a transition period. Some people didn't take part, and some did. And now you have an SE++ that doesn't really represent any of the on-topic forums but at least includes quite a bit of each on-topic forum's membership.
I think the problem here is that some or many people still feel uncomfortable with the general tone in SE++. And while I sympathize with you, concluding that this is because of some anti-G&T cliquishness is just false. Bone up and go chat there. That's really all you can do. Many G&Ters happily chat off-topic there. When you say "foster participation" I think you're really asking to force SE++ - which, as I said, includes posters from all on-topic forums now - to turn their tone into strawberry shortcake. I don't think that's a very feasible thing to do. Or a good thing to do.
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RamiusJoined: July 19, 2000Administrator, ClubPAadmin
edited June 2008
Wow, you guys had some fun last night running in circles on something that you collectively seem to not completely understand.
I'm going to ask the same tired question because I keep forgetting the answer. If SE isn't segregated, why do they have their own gamertag list, WOW thread, MGS4 thread, comic book thread, and (i don't know if this was rectified since I haven't seen it for a while) several TT games threads?
The SE++ subforum is the same amount segregated as the rest of the subforums.
We have separate subforums. That is kinda, by definition, segregation.
But that doesn't carry any negative meaning. It isn't HUMAN segregation, like racial segregation was. It is TOPIC segregation. HUMANS are allowed to move freely from subforum to subforum and from topic to topic. Topics are, indeed, created in special "bins", and depending on which bin they are created in there are different expectations set for that topic.
then why go anywhere else except to form segregation and cliques?
I'm going to parse that question to be, "If SE++ is an everything forum, then why do any other forums exist?".
The answer to that question is that SE++ is not JUST an everything forum, it is an everything forum with a loose commitment to moderation, topicality, and standards of behavior. This should not be hard to understand.
The truly tricky forum actually isn't SE++, but D&D. Because that one is an everything forum with a similar ruleset to the other On-Topic forums. So now you start getting down to a matter of audience. A topic about the new Trinity series from DC Comics will find some interest from the D&D crowd, but maybe not enough to sustain a thread, and almost certainly not enough to really get into a detailed discussion about the project which includes pricing, availability, history, authors, artists, etc. If you want to have a really detailed discussion about Trinity, your topic really belongs in GV. There you will find an audience of people who are really into comics. Same for art, video games, table-top games, writing, etc. We have audiences who specialize in each of those topics for people who want to really delve into those topics. So viable topics in D&D end up only being ones that are not covered in the other forums, (like politics, movies, sports, etc) or topics which are covering some very broad or very popular aspect of one of the specialized forums (like WoW, or "favorite books", or Batman vs Superman). So while in theory, any G&T topic could be made in D&D, in practice it only makes sense to make generalized or extrememly popular gaming topics there.
why are there other forums if SE is the everything forum? Why have other sections if SE already has all sections covered? Why would SE need to go to other forums and have inter-forum relations if they could just make their own thread?
Hopefully I covered all this sufficiently above? In short, there are other forums because most people who care deeply about [blank] would rather discuss [blank] with others who care deeply about it. Also because it is an untenable proposition to put 1000 people into a single forum and expect them to navigate the traffic. And then there is a specific on-topic/off-topic split because experience has shown that there are a lot of people who, when they come to a forum to discuss [blank], they have an expectation that people will not veer far from the topic of [blank] within a single thread, and there are also a lot of people who find that sort of thing boring and they would not keep coming back if all topics were run that way. So on-topic/off-topic exists to meet customer demand.
The strange thing about SE++ is that it's an everything forum, when it should really be an everything else forum.
This is not actually a strange thing. As I said above, it is an everything forum WITH DIFFERENT EXPECTATIONS regarding thread conduct. I think it would be stranger to have an SE++ type forum which was confined to a certain set of topics. How would that work? "You can chat about the OP or take the topic in some completely different direction, as long as you don't talk about [blank]"? That's just stupid.
ok, so if I'm with my social circle of GnT and want to talk about non-games, I have to leave my social circle and talk to new people in SE++. Other people from my social circle may also post in there, but it's still having to learn another social circle.
if SE is chilling with their social circle of SE, and they want to play a game, they make a thread in their own social circle of SE.
Yup. Not sure if this is the point you were trying to make all along, but the fact that Penny-Arcade forums does not provide a place for the people in the G&T "social circle" to be casual exclusively with each other is absolutely true. That's not to say that people in the G&T social circle have no options. There's vent, and there's IRC, and there's a number of "splinter forums" which consist of G&T social circles of ages past and there is nothing stopping the present G&T social circle from setting up a splinter forum as well. And there is no reason that people who post with their social circle in splinter forums can't still post in G&T about G&T topics.
We frankly don't view it as within our mission to grow or nurture social circles within the on-topic subforums, nor to make sure that every social circle has a hangout place on the forums. If you make friends here and you want to shoot-the-shit with them, do it off-board. Unless you and your friends want to join or are already part of the larger-community of shit-shooters in SE++. Then you can shoot-the-shit on-board, in SE++. This is the design of the penny-arcade forums. It is a design that some people passionately disagree with. Generally, when we encounter those people, we invite them to find a forum that is more suitable to them.
I would assume that the people who don't post in SE++ largely don't do so because they don't like that board's style. Expecting us to alter our tastes to enjoy SE++ is as unreasonable as expecting SE++ to change to suit us.
That's probably the source of a good deal of the bitterness over the loss of chat threads in G&T. Regardless of whether it was a good thing for the forum in general, the way that it was done gave the impression that the admins didn't care about what the posters wanted, that they expected us to change to match the forums instead of the forums becoming something that matched the style of discourse that we wanted to have. If a stronger case had been made for how eliminating them would help the forum, or if concerns hadn't simply been brushed off with statements to switch to SE++, much of the grief that resulted might have been preventable.
I'm just curious, what does an exercise in futility feel like?
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BroloBroseidonLord of the BroceanRegistered Userregular
edited June 2008
I think the problem here is that some or many people still feel uncomfortable with the general tone in SE++. And while I sympathize with you, concluding that this is because of some anti-G&T cliquishness is just false. Bone up and go chat there. That's really all you can do. Many G&Ters happily chat off-topic there. When you say "foster participation" I think you're really asking to force SE++ - which, as I said, includes posters from all on-topic forums now - to turn their tone into strawberry shortcake. I don't think that's a very feasible thing to do. Or a good thing to do.
I actually do the majority (about 90%) of my posting in SE++, and actually I love the tone and community there. I think there could be more to 'fostering participation' than toning down SE++, or asking G&T-centric forumers to grow thicker skins.
A lot of the threads I've been making in SE++ recently have been on topics that encourage that kind of community and user involvement - things that are slightly more on-topic or thematic, which I believe make it a bit easier for someone who's unfamiliar with Social Entropy to get their feet wet, so to speak. It's a very small start though, and to get people to understanding the style of how and why we post on SE is something that I've been trying to figure out for a while now.
I really do believe once people understand it they'll start to really enjoy SE++ and transition between it and the other forums more freely - but the barrier to entry still seems high enough to keep a majority of forumers out.
I would assume that the people who don't post in SE++ largely don't do so because they don't like that board's style. Expecting us to alter our tastes to enjoy SE++ is as unreasonable as expecting SE++ to change to suit us.
That's probably the source of a good deal of the bitterness over the loss of chat threads in G&T. Regardless of whether it was a good thing for the forum in general, the way that it was done gave the impression that the admins didn't care about what the posters wanted, that they expected us to change to match the forums instead of the forums becoming something that matched the style of discourse that we wanted to have. If a stronger case had been made for how eliminating them would help the forum, or if concerns hadn't simply been brushed off with statements to switch to SE++, much of the grief that resulted might have been preventable.
I'm just curious, what does an exercise in futility feel like?
Not asking for it back, just whining about how it was handled. I either understand or don't feel qualified to judge all of the reasons for getting rid of it. As someone who mostly stayed out of it other than occasionally asking a question or two that wasn't worth making a thread over (and therefore admittedly has no idea if it was as bad as is commonly claimed), it felt like the community as a whole was losing something without much evidence that what we gained from the change would make up for it. The policy was fine, I just disliked the PR.
I think the problem here is that some or many people still feel uncomfortable with the general tone in SE++. And while I sympathize with you, concluding that this is because of some anti-G&T cliquishness is just false. Bone up and go chat there. That's really all you can do. Many G&Ters happily chat off-topic there. When you say "foster participation" I think you're really asking to force SE++ - which, as I said, includes posters from all on-topic forums now - to turn their tone into strawberry shortcake. I don't think that's a very feasible thing to do. Or a good thing to do.
I actually do the majority (about 90%) of my posting in SE++, and actually I love the tone and community there. I think there could be more to 'fostering participation' than toning down SE++, or asking G&T-centric forumers to grow thicker skins.
A lot of the threads I've been making in SE++ recently have been on topics that encourage that kind of community and user involvement - things that are slightly more on-topic or thematic, which I believe make it a bit easier for someone who's unfamiliar with Social Entropy to get their feet wet, so to speak. It's a very small start though, and to get people to understanding the style of how and why we post on SE is something that I've been trying to figure out for a while now.
I really do believe once people understand it they'll start to really enjoy SE++ and transition between it and the other forums more freely - but the barrier to entry still seems high enough to keep a majority of forumers out.
The barrier to entry is in their own head. So how "high" it is depends on how tall the forumer is. That's my entire point. There is no actual "barrier to entry" except this imaginary brick wall of fear or uncomfortability or whatever that people imagine up themselves.
And "foster participation" is really nothing more than a keyword. How, exactly, is the administration (I assume you are addressing the administration with this question) supposed to foster participation in the off-topic forum? Either people will want to post off-topic-ly or they won't. I'm sure that if the administration felt that people were being driven away, they would do something. I'm sure of this because they've done this in the past. In fact, I'm pretty sure that is one large reason that the G&T chat thread was taken away.
Last, is there really a problem here? I mean, why bother? People will chat where they will chat. Forums are means, not ends; means to allow people to converse. Where and how people converse (within the rules given by the administration/owners) will naturally dictate the flow of the forum - I mean, that's how communities are.
I mean we have fun now and then. The whining forum is always a good time, as is the Christmas forum-rollup and zombification games and whatnot. I'm not saying there can't be cross-forum fun. But I don't see any reason to try to pointedly funnel people in one direction or another.
Look, Rolo, I can't speak to your motives personally - as you say you post mostly in SE++ - but after years and years now it seems like people will not let the G&T chat thing drop. Which would be fine (to me) if they had sensible logic or sound arguments but they don't. So while I'm responding to you, my opinion in this matter really comes from the fact that people can't seem to just chill out and socialize. I mean, people are complicating this (in my opinion) to a ridiculous degree. They act like their home was bulldozed and they have no place to go. It's nonsense.
Posts
for instance I prefer the SE++ Vent Server over the GnT one simply because I know more people on the SE++ Vent Server via the forum
[EDIT]
look man all I know is that you asked for an explanation as to why SE++ is segregated when it's not supposed to be and the explanation is the same across all social interaction
the more time you spend interacting (voluntarily) with someone, the closer you are going to be with them and the more you are going to want to interact with that someone
whether it's cliques WITHIN SE++ or SE++ being a clique in its own right
that's just how it's gonna be
so I mean you make a thread for, say, WoW, right
you have SE++'s own WoW guild as opposed to the GnT one, and that's explained away by my first statements in this post
and you have SE++'s WoW guild WITHIN SE++ itself, which is explained away by the fact that people who spend more time playing WoW together are going to have more relevant things to say about that WoW guild than someone who doesn't play WoW with them would
it happens in ALL social interaction, online or off
SOMEONE is going to SEE that there is a separation even when it is not intentionally put there; there are NO actual lines in the sand that say YOU CAN'T CROSS THIS LINE BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT ONE OF US
you get closer to some people because you click better with them or you spend more time with them, and therefore some people you are NOT as close to MIGHT end up feeling left out or erstwhile "separated" from you and your group
whether it's within SE++ or SE++ vs. the rest of the forum or any other perceived "subcommunity" in any social setting, that's just how it works
the "division" is strictly natural and it is only applicable (or tangible, if you will), if you perceive it as being a wall or barrier or otherwise something that is put there to CREATE a separation
those with some level of social maturity will understand that the separation only exists in perception and is easily traversed/removed just by continued interaction with the members of the perceived "subcommunity"
though if you are not interested in or do not play WoW, you may find that "joining" that subcommunity is significantly harder, in which case I ask you why you are wanting to join a "subcommunity" that is based around an activity or interest that you do not even share
if SE is chilling with their social circle of SE, and they want to play a game, they make a thread in their own social circle of SE and have fun with people they click better with.
replace GnT and non-games with their appropriate terms for the other forums, I'll ask again why go to any other forum when SE has it all?
shit Pika you post in SE++ too, you know this
a thread is created, and regardless of the topic it wanders off-course for about 20 pages, yo-yos back, then gets thrown out all over again
no thread in SE++ remains topical for very long unless it is not a popular topic and in that case only people with something related to the OP to say will say it
with a popular topic (such as a game), a conversation just goes as it would always go when a lot of people throw in their 2 cents; tangents are explored, etc, and the original topic is lost
I guess my point is that if someone wants to talk in-depth about a game and everything related to THAT game, GnT is still the best place to go
for a layman's discussion of a game, SE++ is probably the better choice
You can't have it both ways. Either game threads and serious discussion stay in their bins, or other forums get the right to go off-topic. Having a subforum which can cross the line 'just because' is a compromise.
Because you go to SE when you want conversation that can and will veer off-topic, but if you want to talk specifically about a certain game without deviating from that subject you go to G&T?
If SE wants to talk seriously they post in the SE thread. If SE wants to post something off-topic they post in the same thread. If they want to post on topic they quote the last on-topic post and continue posting.
not really
I have yet to see a single SE++ thread that is dominated by a single group of posters who were unwelcoming or hostile to any other poster who did not post regularly in the thread
I mean even the SE++ WoW thread is perfectly okay to post in even if you are not in their guild
but why you would want to post in it when you have no interest in the underlying (if obscured) topic of discussion in the first place is beyond me
that's pretty much the beauty of SE++, yes
if only because "talking seriously" in SE++ is a different level of serious from anything I've yet to see from the other forums
for instance, I don't post in D&D even though many of their discussions run parallel in topic with SE++, simply because I don't want to go into the depth that many other posters in D&D often go into
Yes, because there's a rule stating that the on-topic forums have to stay on-topic.
There's no rule saying the off-topic forums have to stay off-topic. I don't see how (or why) you'd enforce that.
What posters should realize is that for socializing and other things of that nature, they're free to use SE.
This isn't a problem with forum division, it's a problem with people not utilizing what is available for their use.
The other forums owe their existence to SE++, not the other way around. You kids would do well to remember that *wags finger*
Because SE is an off topic forum and a lot of people don't want to post in a forum that doesn't stay on topic.
Please try not to answer questions directed at the administrative if staff if
A. You don't know what you're talking about
B. You're a thundering cretin
You are currently two for two.
Go start your own forum. You can run it however you want.
Not having this conversation ever again.
Aye, that was one of the many abortions.
I think you posted in the wrong thread.
I see the same people making the same exact unevolved arguments they've been making for years here. I can only assume these people are being purposfully obtuse just so they can complain about stuff, like the blankety blank that was removed from blankety blank awhile back.
Even if you had a logical point (you don't) does it really hurt you that "games" can be discussed in two forums - one, an on-topic forum that strives to keep discussions on-track to whatever the thread is about, and the other, an off-topic forum where you can go from talking about Bioshock to pizza to pedophilia to Spider-Man to felching back to pizza and then back to Bioshock - or what? I mean, really.
The reason these problems exist isn't because there are cliques, it's because people create problems in their head and act as if they exist. That causes problems.
And if you really don't get it, go click on one of the other hundreds of thousands of forums out there. Gaming forums, art forums, literature forums, etc...almost every single one of these has a separate off-topic forum. And I haven't seen one with a rule that says "no discussing literature/games/art on the off-topic forum!" because that's nonsense. Does that mean Penny-Arcade needs to follow suit? No. But it does mean that it isn't as nonsensical as some people are suggesting.
Playing dumb isn't going to get you the G&T chat thread back and it isn't going to get people to stop talking about games, graphic art, or whatever else in SE++. Ugh.
^^ I don't know why I stopped midsentence in the first paragraph. I guess it wasn't important.
People who consider G&T to be their main board should be doing their socializing and off-topic stuff in SE++, but most of them don't seem to.
Is there any way to foster their participation in the chat/off-topic forum?
It will draw them in, and then they'll see that SE++ isn't such a bad place. That or they'll go crazy and kill themselves.
That's probably the source of a good deal of the bitterness over the loss of chat threads in G&T. Regardless of whether it was a good thing for the forum in general, the way that it was done gave the impression that the admins didn't care about what the posters wanted, that they expected us to change to match the forums instead of the forums becoming something that matched the style of discourse that we wanted to have. If a stronger case had been made for how eliminating them would help the forum, or if concerns hadn't simply been brushed off with statements to switch to SE++, much of the grief that resulted might have been preventable.
Still, the admins have made it clear the chat thread is gone for good, so there's little point in bringing that up now.
It's called evolution, look it up, dummy.
Some people don't post off-topic at all. Anyone that posts off-topic stuff should, as you say, post that specific stuff in SE++.
However, you wrote "should be doing their socializing...in SE++" which is completely, 100% false, unless you don't consider G&T to be some form of social interaction. I mean, they can't slap each other's balls and ask "how's the wife and kids?" in an on-topic Bioshock thread, but if they really want to do that, then they can go do that in SE++. You can lead a horse to water and you can drown him in the water but turning the horse into glue is a long, complicated process that we shouldn't bother with. Or something.
The thing is, all forums are chat forums. The purpose of a forum is to give a place for people to, well, chat. The only difference between G&T and SE++ is that G&T has restrictions on how you may chat (the topics must be related to games or technology or both, and each thread should relate to the thread topic and original post) while SE++ does not, save the obvious common taboos for all Penny-Arcade chat forums. Personally, I think this is a good thing. And frankly, I think it's retarded to suggest that anyone should be "forced" to participate in the off-topic forums. Why should anyone be "forced" to post anywhere? The only thing that should be enforced is where NOT to post (given the content being posted). If you want to post about some scab on your forehead, then you should post in H/A if you want help and in SE++ if you want to be told you have herpes. Even if PA were comprised mostly of 13 year olds, which it isn't, I think even at 13 you should know enough about life to comprehend the basic, fundamental mechanics of web forum structure.
This is like complaining that people who go to the gym only go to the treadmills and that they don't go on the cycles. If they want to cycle, they can take their fat asses over to the cycles. And if they want to run, they can run. And some people want to complain ad nauseum that there are no cycles in the treadmill section. Well, "tough titties" is my personal opinion of that particular complaint.
I think people just like to bitch about nonsense.
But you know what's not unreasonable? Asking/expecting both parties to adapt to each other.
I wrote "socializing and off-topic stuff", meaning things that fall outside of the realms of Games and Technology, or the other on-topic forums. I think a lot of them might want to do that, and SE++ is the only appropriate place for them to do it in, but for whatever reason they don't. I'm not sure what the answer to this is, or if there even is one.
The thing is, SE++ is already filled with old SE++ people as well as many old G&T people. I mean, it already has evolved into a melting pot community. Hell, I think most of the Writer's Block regulars post in SE++ (which admittedly can't be a very high number), but still...it's not like SE++ is SE++ vs. The World here. Yes, a "chat" community did exist before G&T's chat thread was taken away and yes, G&T was asked/expected to inegrate, and yes, SE++ was equally asked to not be xenophobic during the transition period.
But there was a transition period. Some people didn't take part, and some did. And now you have an SE++ that doesn't really represent any of the on-topic forums but at least includes quite a bit of each on-topic forum's membership.
I think the problem here is that some or many people still feel uncomfortable with the general tone in SE++. And while I sympathize with you, concluding that this is because of some anti-G&T cliquishness is just false. Bone up and go chat there. That's really all you can do. Many G&Ters happily chat off-topic there. When you say "foster participation" I think you're really asking to force SE++ - which, as I said, includes posters from all on-topic forums now - to turn their tone into strawberry shortcake. I don't think that's a very feasible thing to do. Or a good thing to do.
The SE++ subforum is the same amount segregated as the rest of the subforums.
We have separate subforums. That is kinda, by definition, segregation.
But that doesn't carry any negative meaning. It isn't HUMAN segregation, like racial segregation was. It is TOPIC segregation. HUMANS are allowed to move freely from subforum to subforum and from topic to topic. Topics are, indeed, created in special "bins", and depending on which bin they are created in there are different expectations set for that topic.
I'm going to parse that question to be, "If SE++ is an everything forum, then why do any other forums exist?".
The answer to that question is that SE++ is not JUST an everything forum, it is an everything forum with a loose commitment to moderation, topicality, and standards of behavior. This should not be hard to understand.
The truly tricky forum actually isn't SE++, but D&D. Because that one is an everything forum with a similar ruleset to the other On-Topic forums. So now you start getting down to a matter of audience. A topic about the new Trinity series from DC Comics will find some interest from the D&D crowd, but maybe not enough to sustain a thread, and almost certainly not enough to really get into a detailed discussion about the project which includes pricing, availability, history, authors, artists, etc. If you want to have a really detailed discussion about Trinity, your topic really belongs in GV. There you will find an audience of people who are really into comics. Same for art, video games, table-top games, writing, etc. We have audiences who specialize in each of those topics for people who want to really delve into those topics. So viable topics in D&D end up only being ones that are not covered in the other forums, (like politics, movies, sports, etc) or topics which are covering some very broad or very popular aspect of one of the specialized forums (like WoW, or "favorite books", or Batman vs Superman). So while in theory, any G&T topic could be made in D&D, in practice it only makes sense to make generalized or extrememly popular gaming topics there.
Hopefully I covered all this sufficiently above? In short, there are other forums because most people who care deeply about [blank] would rather discuss [blank] with others who care deeply about it. Also because it is an untenable proposition to put 1000 people into a single forum and expect them to navigate the traffic. And then there is a specific on-topic/off-topic split because experience has shown that there are a lot of people who, when they come to a forum to discuss [blank], they have an expectation that people will not veer far from the topic of [blank] within a single thread, and there are also a lot of people who find that sort of thing boring and they would not keep coming back if all topics were run that way. So on-topic/off-topic exists to meet customer demand.
This is not actually a strange thing. As I said above, it is an everything forum WITH DIFFERENT EXPECTATIONS regarding thread conduct. I think it would be stranger to have an SE++ type forum which was confined to a certain set of topics. How would that work? "You can chat about the OP or take the topic in some completely different direction, as long as you don't talk about [blank]"? That's just stupid.
Yup. Not sure if this is the point you were trying to make all along, but the fact that Penny-Arcade forums does not provide a place for the people in the G&T "social circle" to be casual exclusively with each other is absolutely true. That's not to say that people in the G&T social circle have no options. There's vent, and there's IRC, and there's a number of "splinter forums" which consist of G&T social circles of ages past and there is nothing stopping the present G&T social circle from setting up a splinter forum as well. And there is no reason that people who post with their social circle in splinter forums can't still post in G&T about G&T topics.
We frankly don't view it as within our mission to grow or nurture social circles within the on-topic subforums, nor to make sure that every social circle has a hangout place on the forums. If you make friends here and you want to shoot-the-shit with them, do it off-board. Unless you and your friends want to join or are already part of the larger-community of shit-shooters in SE++. Then you can shoot-the-shit on-board, in SE++. This is the design of the penny-arcade forums. It is a design that some people passionately disagree with. Generally, when we encounter those people, we invite them to find a forum that is more suitable to them.
I'm just curious, what does an exercise in futility feel like?
I actually do the majority (about 90%) of my posting in SE++, and actually I love the tone and community there. I think there could be more to 'fostering participation' than toning down SE++, or asking G&T-centric forumers to grow thicker skins.
A lot of the threads I've been making in SE++ recently have been on topics that encourage that kind of community and user involvement - things that are slightly more on-topic or thematic, which I believe make it a bit easier for someone who's unfamiliar with Social Entropy to get their feet wet, so to speak. It's a very small start though, and to get people to understanding the style of how and why we post on SE is something that I've been trying to figure out for a while now.
I really do believe once people understand it they'll start to really enjoy SE++ and transition between it and the other forums more freely - but the barrier to entry still seems high enough to keep a majority of forumers out.
Not asking for it back, just whining about how it was handled. I either understand or don't feel qualified to judge all of the reasons for getting rid of it. As someone who mostly stayed out of it other than occasionally asking a question or two that wasn't worth making a thread over (and therefore admittedly has no idea if it was as bad as is commonly claimed), it felt like the community as a whole was losing something without much evidence that what we gained from the change would make up for it. The policy was fine, I just disliked the PR.
The barrier to entry is in their own head. So how "high" it is depends on how tall the forumer is. That's my entire point. There is no actual "barrier to entry" except this imaginary brick wall of fear or uncomfortability or whatever that people imagine up themselves.
And "foster participation" is really nothing more than a keyword. How, exactly, is the administration (I assume you are addressing the administration with this question) supposed to foster participation in the off-topic forum? Either people will want to post off-topic-ly or they won't. I'm sure that if the administration felt that people were being driven away, they would do something. I'm sure of this because they've done this in the past. In fact, I'm pretty sure that is one large reason that the G&T chat thread was taken away.
Last, is there really a problem here? I mean, why bother? People will chat where they will chat. Forums are means, not ends; means to allow people to converse. Where and how people converse (within the rules given by the administration/owners) will naturally dictate the flow of the forum - I mean, that's how communities are.
I mean we have fun now and then. The whining forum is always a good time, as is the Christmas forum-rollup and zombification games and whatnot. I'm not saying there can't be cross-forum fun. But I don't see any reason to try to pointedly funnel people in one direction or another.
Look, Rolo, I can't speak to your motives personally - as you say you post mostly in SE++ - but after years and years now it seems like people will not let the G&T chat thing drop. Which would be fine (to me) if they had sensible logic or sound arguments but they don't. So while I'm responding to you, my opinion in this matter really comes from the fact that people can't seem to just chill out and socialize. I mean, people are complicating this (in my opinion) to a ridiculous degree. They act like their home was bulldozed and they have no place to go. It's nonsense.