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To Catch a Predator - Settlement over suicide

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Posts

  • DetharinDetharin Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Tostitos wrote: »

    Now we're finally getting somewhere.

    Suppose I video someone breaking into my garage, where I keep my lawn equipment, and put the video on youtube after catching them in the act and having them taken away.

    How does that "try and convict" them?

    Your objections stem more from "their reputation is being hurt and everyone is seeing them get busted" than anything related to modern jurisprudence.

    No we really are not, sadly.

    Aside from having just tainted the pool of potential jurors making it far less likely they can get a fair trial. Meaning they might have to have to case tried somewhere else, you are also not presenting a completely fair and impartial version of the events.

    Lets say a local news organization will pay you 100 dollars for videotaping a crime. You know this, so if you go around dropping hints that you keep pirate gold in your garage you are partially to blame. Its one thing when you discover a crime is being committed and video tape it.

    Its quite another when you do everything short of putting up signs that say break into my garage and get 50$ and then wait camera in hand to make a profit off of desperate idiots. Guess what, they broke into your garage, but until they are found guilty they are presumed innocent.

    Detharin on
  • Regina FongRegina Fong Allons-y, Alonso Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Tostitos wrote: »
    jeepguy wrote: »
    Hey, Tosti, shock everyone here; post something that isn't a strawman.

    Excuse me for not realizing that this was actually "Circlejerk thread in which we all talk about how horrible TCAP is and backslap each other over how compassionate and progressive we are."

    Nope, still a strawman.

    Regina Fong on
  • MendrianMendrian Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Tostitos wrote: »
    yalborap wrote: »
    Detharin wrote: »
    Tostitos wrote: »
    So, basically, a bunch of people think that the current system that law enforcement uses to catch and prosecute people who drive 500 miles to fuck what they thought would be a 12 year old girl is unfair and entrapment.

    Those poor, poor child fuckers. :(

    I do not think anyone is saying when LAW ENFORCEMENT does it there is a problem. The problem comes in when a network station that does not have to follow the same legal and ethical standards decides to ambush these guys with a camera. Thats where I have a problem. You are basically televising these men as convicted pedophiles when they have yet to be found guilty of that crime. You have made yourself judge, jury, and executioner.

    And frankly its only OK when I do that.

    Pretty much, except for that last part.

    I've got no problem if a cop pretends to be a 10 year old boy/girl/robot and tricks a pedophile into going to a location where they instead get handcuffed and await trial.

    I've got EVERY problem when we put that on TV and glorify it for the public, while putting it on television before the individual has been convicted(guaranteeing they will be seen as guilty no matter the situation).

    Right, they only drove 500 miles to hang out, watch My Little Pony, and warn the lil tykes about the dangers of the interbutts. Riiiiiight.

    I will say this- any child molester would be right lucky to have you blokes on his jury. "That dirty little lolita seduced me! I couldn't control myself, and she wanted it!"

    The problem with this attitude is that it assumes TCAP is 100% ethically infallible. It assumes that the methodology of those participating is held to a higher standard than it really is.

    Let's say that someone on the TCAP team invites over a "pedophile" without adequately documenting that the perosn on the other end is really interested in sex with a minor. This is something that seems like it's possible, but I'll admit it's unlikely. Still, our justice system (from police on up) is designed to take this sort of thing into account. If the police don't follow procedure, that comes up in court, and charges can be dropped as a result of this.

    A television show, however, isn't held to these standards. They are not legally obligated to only show episodes featuring "guests" who were actually convicted. They could botch the procedure entirely and still be allowed to show the episode, thus seriously impacting the life of an otherwise innocent person. Our legal system has a procedure for dealing with wrongful arrest; unfortunately, the court of public opinion is far less forgiving.

    If TCAP followed legal procedure to the letter in 99% of all cases, if there was only a .05% of them failing to do what is nessecary to prove solicitation of sex, that is still too wide of a margin for my comfort. The police are a legal entity whose job is to find and catch criminals; if they choose to set up stings in this manner, I encourage that and think it will solve a lot of problems. I doubt we disagree there. The problem for me, is that TCAP is a television show first, and a watchdog group second. They are not held to the same standards as real law enforcement, but the consequences of being featured on their show are almost as dire as actually being convicted. We are innocent until proven guilty by a court. The punishment does not begin until the gavel drops, and if we are encouraging anything else, not matter how monstrous the alleged perpetrator is, we are taking due process and throwing it out a window.

    If I find a man at a murder scene, knee deep in bodies, covered in blood and screaming that he can smell their souls in hell, he is still innocent until he is proven guilty. It is not my job, nor that of a journalist, to determine the guilt value of a crime. It is the job a court. Let the justice system do its job, rather than rely on a schlock journalist whose bottom line is more important than justice ever could be.

    Mendrian on
  • SlickShughesSlickShughes Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    It surprises me that none of the guys they pull in are showing up with intent to kidnap, or armed for some other reason. Chris Hanson would be a stain on the wall faster than you could say "here's the wine coolers and condoms!"

    "Why don't you have a seat over-" BANG!

    SlickShughes on
  • DetharinDetharin Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    It surprises me that none of the guys they pull in are showing up with intent to kidnap, or armed for some other reason. Chris Hanson would be a stain on the wall faster than you could say "here's the wine coolers and condoms!"

    "Why don't you have a seat over-" BANG!

    That would be the greatest episode ever.

    Detharin on
  • evilbobevilbob RADELAIDERegistered User regular
    edited June 2008
    I think there was one where the actress nearly gave it away because she had to make sure the guy left his gun in his car.

    evilbob on
    l5sruu1fyatf.jpg

  • saggiosaggio Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Tostitos wrote: »
    Detharin wrote: »
    Tostitos wrote: »

    I never said that it was.

    Personally, I think the TV show is lame. I think the actual law enforcement use of fake 12 year olds is excellent. The only real criticism people are putting against TCAP goes against the law enforcement techniques as well. "It wasn't a real 12 year old so they shouldn't go to jail dur hur hur."

    How about they are not law enforcement officials, and they are representing innocent/untried people as convicted pedophiles on national TV.


    Again, they aren't representing them as "convicted pedophiles," they're representing them as people who went to a great deal of effort to be in the physical company of someone well under the age of consent who they previously had explicit sexual conversations with.

    You clearly find that abusive and unfair. Why?

    It's the same reason I find Guantanamo Bay so deplorable. There's no due process.

    saggio on
    3DS: 0232-9436-6893
  • MendrianMendrian Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    saggio wrote: »
    Tostitos wrote: »
    Detharin wrote: »
    Tostitos wrote: »

    I never said that it was.

    Personally, I think the TV show is lame. I think the actual law enforcement use of fake 12 year olds is excellent. The only real criticism people are putting against TCAP goes against the law enforcement techniques as well. "It wasn't a real 12 year old so they shouldn't go to jail dur hur hur."

    How about they are not law enforcement officials, and they are representing innocent/untried people as convicted pedophiles on national TV.


    Again, they aren't representing them as "convicted pedophiles," they're representing them as people who went to a great deal of effort to be in the physical company of someone well under the age of consent who they previously had explicit sexual conversations with.

    You clearly find that abusive and unfair. Why?

    It's the same reason I find Guantanamo Bay so deplorable. There's no due process.


    ^ This.

    Trying to get around due process by going through the public sector is distinctly not cool. The public does not legally have the right to make decisions about guilt or innocence unless they are part of a jury. I don't care how obvious the guilt of the accused seems.

    And I don't think anyone here is defending pedophiles. What many are doing, however, is defending accused pedophiles. We all enjoy certain rights, and one of those rights is innocence until proven guilty. Giving that right the big middle finger by just telling the public directly that someone is guilty before due process is followed is shady and unethical. We don't have a special list of laws and rights for people who seem very guilty, or a special llist for accused pedophiles. I admit being featured on a program does not directly violate those laws or rights, but it certainly vomits all over them.

    Mendrian on
  • Regina FongRegina Fong Allons-y, Alonso Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    saggio wrote: »
    Tostitos wrote: »
    Detharin wrote: »
    Tostitos wrote: »

    I never said that it was.

    Personally, I think the TV show is lame. I think the actual law enforcement use of fake 12 year olds is excellent. The only real criticism people are putting against TCAP goes against the law enforcement techniques as well. "It wasn't a real 12 year old so they shouldn't go to jail dur hur hur."

    How about they are not law enforcement officials, and they are representing innocent/untried people as convicted pedophiles on national TV.


    Again, they aren't representing them as "convicted pedophiles," they're representing them as people who went to a great deal of effort to be in the physical company of someone well under the age of consent who they previously had explicit sexual conversations with.

    You clearly find that abusive and unfair. Why?

    It's the same reason I find Guantanamo Bay so deplorable. There's no due process.



    So you support pedophilia and terrorism?


    /tostitos

    Regina Fong on
  • yalborapyalborap Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    jeepguy wrote: »
    saggio wrote: »
    Tostitos wrote: »
    Detharin wrote: »
    Tostitos wrote: »

    I never said that it was.

    Personally, I think the TV show is lame. I think the actual law enforcement use of fake 12 year olds is excellent. The only real criticism people are putting against TCAP goes against the law enforcement techniques as well. "It wasn't a real 12 year old so they shouldn't go to jail dur hur hur."

    How about they are not law enforcement officials, and they are representing innocent/untried people as convicted pedophiles on national TV.


    Again, they aren't representing them as "convicted pedophiles," they're representing them as people who went to a great deal of effort to be in the physical company of someone well under the age of consent who they previously had explicit sexual conversations with.

    You clearly find that abusive and unfair. Why?

    It's the same reason I find Guantanamo Bay so deplorable. There's no due process.



    So you support pedophilia and terrorism?


    /tostitos

    I support terrorists being able to rape your children up the butthole.

    yalborap on
  • EggyToastEggyToast Jersey CityRegistered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Mendrian wrote: »
    And I don't think anyone here is defending pedophiles. What many are doing, however, is defending accused pedophiles.

    Right -- the hatred of pedophiles is so strong that, conceivably, I could move to a town, find a neighbor I didn't like, and go to all the other neighbors and say "This person raped and killed my 8 year old daughter. I've been tracking him down because the law ignored him," and this person would probably be beat up *by their neighbors* and fear for their life, if not killed in the first place. Nevermind that the pictures of my "daughter" were pulled from the internet and I never had a kid.

    TCAP works on ratings, and there's little stopping them from a lapse in moral judgment and creating an episode on faulty or bad evidence. It's pretty obvious that everyone in the thread believes that convicted pedophiles are terrible people, but those "defending" them more or less want them to be able to get better and live their life without fearing death at the hands of an overprotective father once they get out of jail. And when they're so heavily ostracized, they're forced into loneliness and solitude where their old thoughts return. It's an imperfect solution that doesn't really solve anything, and shows like this and the vigilante-ism it encourages only makes it worse. Like Than has been saying, tougher laws don't help if it simply forces the convicted to go underground and turn to illegal jobs, shifting residences, and a return to "base" urges. If you're living under a bridge and haven't eaten in 3 days...

    EggyToast on
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  • Penguin_OtakuPenguin_Otaku Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    I don't get how some of these people even get in trouble. I mean, like someone mentioned in early posts that maybe this guys never plan to do anything.

    The guy who didn't show up? He didn't show up for a reason. There are always people out there looking for some sort of thrill and maybe thats what they guy was looking for. Unconventional to most of us, sure, but thats how he got off. He either knew it was itsatrap.jpg or never had intentions of going through with it.

    So, when his shit gets plastered everywhere that he's some sort of child butt raper, thats gonna fuck with you. Most of those people go in there and say, "My life is ruined." They know it is. They know, though, that most of it was of them even showing up.

    Perhaps I'm missing something or I just don't know.

    Penguin_Otaku on
    sig-1.jpg
  • StarcrossStarcross Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    I don't get how some of these people even get in trouble. I mean, like someone mentioned in early posts that maybe this guys never plan to do anything.

    The guy who didn't show up? He didn't show up for a reason. There are always people out there looking for some sort of thrill and maybe thats what they guy was looking for. Unconventional to most of us, sure, but thats how he got off. He either knew it was itsatrap.jpg or never had intentions of going through with it.

    So, when his shit gets plastered everywhere that he's some sort of child butt raper, thats gonna fuck with you. Most of those people go in there and say, "My life is ruined." They know it is. They know, though, that most of it was of them even showing up.

    Perhaps I'm missing something or I just don't know.

    Soliciting a minor for sex is illegal, even if you don't intend to actually go through with it.

    Starcross on
  • MKRMKR Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Starcross wrote: »
    I don't get how some of these people even get in trouble. I mean, like someone mentioned in early posts that maybe this guys never plan to do anything.

    The guy who didn't show up? He didn't show up for a reason. There are always people out there looking for some sort of thrill and maybe thats what they guy was looking for. Unconventional to most of us, sure, but thats how he got off. He either knew it was itsatrap.jpg or never had intentions of going through with it.

    So, when his shit gets plastered everywhere that he's some sort of child butt raper, thats gonna fuck with you. Most of those people go in there and say, "My life is ruined." They know it is. They know, though, that most of it was of them even showing up.

    Perhaps I'm missing something or I just don't know.

    Soliciting a minor for sex is illegal, even if you don't intend to actually go through with it.

    What does the law say when that minor is soliciting back?

    MKR on
  • TubeTube Registered User admin
    edited June 2008
    The point is if they're old enough to be held accountable for their actions when they kill someone, they should be old enough to make informed decisions about sleeping with people. Statutory rape is a crime on the pretense that the victim is not capable of making the choice of sleeping with an adult.

    Dave Chappelle makes a good point that whether or not a 15 year old is considered an adult depends largely upon their race and economic background.

    Tube on
  • mrflippymrflippy Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Starcross wrote: »
    Soliciting a minor for sex is illegal, even if you don't intend to actually go through with it.

    I've seen this stated in the thread quite a bit. I haven't even seen the show. (can't remember whether this has been said already or not) Do the guys actually specifically state that they want something sexual? What would they do if the guy just said that he wanted to come over to talk?

    mrflippy on
  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    mrflippy wrote: »
    Starcross wrote: »
    Soliciting a minor for sex is illegal, even if you don't intend to actually go through with it.

    I've seen this stated in the thread quite a bit. I haven't even seen the show. (can't remember whether this has been said already or not) Do the guys actually specifically state that they want something sexual? What would they do if the guy just said that he wanted to come over to talk?

    I'm pretty sure most of the guys say they're coming over for something sexual. And if they say they just want to come over to "talk" or "hang out" I'm pretty sure the PJ folks just keep pushing for them to say they're coming over for freaky monkey sex.

    mcdermott on
  • ÆthelredÆthelred Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    The point is if they're old enough to be held accountable for their actions when they kill someone, they should be old enough to make informed decisions about sleeping with people. Statutory rape is a crime on the pretense that the victim is not capable of making the choice of sleeping with an adult.

    Dave Chappelle makes a good point that whether or not a 15 year old is considered an adult depends largely upon their race and economic background.

    Not legally though?

    Æthelred on
    pokes: 1505 8032 8399
  • MisanthropicMisanthropic Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    We had a guy down the street from us try to lure a 13 year old girl into his car. It turns out it's his 5th FUCKING offense. But Rhode Island is such a libral state that he keeps getting let out after being "cured" or "rewired" or what ever bullshit they call it.

    if some asshole who has touched 4 children touches MY daughter i will kill him. And yes i think that is justice.

    Out of curiosity, do you consider yourself Christian?

    Misanthropic on
  • JohnnyCacheJohnnyCache Starting Defense Place at the tableRegistered User regular
    edited June 2008
    We had a guy down the street from us try to lure a 13 year old girl into his car. It turns out it's his 5th FUCKING offense. But Rhode Island is such a libral state that he keeps getting let out after being "cured" or "rewired" or what ever bullshit they call it.

    if some asshole who has touched 4 children touches MY daughter i will kill him. And yes i think that is justice.

    Out of curiosity, do you consider yourself Christian?

    Sounds like he's read the bible a little more carefully than most christians, actually.

    I have an issue with the notion of these men being mentally ill...

    OK, let's say attraction to children is a mental illness. That doesn't mean acting on that attraction is forgivable. Pedophilia may be a mental illness, but I don't think it meets the definition of rendering someone unable to tell their behavior is legal or consequential (that standard being the one we use for schizos and the like)

    I mean I am super straight you guys I like chicks a lot but I'm pretty capable of not fucking them most of the time. I don't really ever get a compulsion to fuck a girl so strong that I act on it regardless of consequence.

    It's IMPORTANT to analyze the degree to which pedophiles can tell legal from illegal. I mean, sociopaths are still tried, when they are functionally incapable of feeling moral remorse or compunction, because sociopaths are sill high-functioning in analytical terms and can therefore be held accountable for choosing illegal behavior even if psychologically they can't select moral behavior, right?

    JohnnyCache on
  • Bionic MonkeyBionic Monkey Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited June 2008
    We had a guy down the street from us try to lure a 13 year old girl into his car. It turns out it's his 5th FUCKING offense. But Rhode Island is such a libral state that he keeps getting let out after being "cured" or "rewired" or what ever bullshit they call it.

    if some asshole who has touched 4 children touches MY daughter i will kill him. And yes i think that is justice.

    Out of curiosity, do you consider yourself Christian?

    Sounds like he's read the bible a little more carefully than most christians, actually.

    I have an issue with the notion of these men being mentally ill...

    OK, let's say attraction to children is a mental illness. That doesn't mean acting on that attraction is forgivable. Pedophilia may be a mental illness, but I don't think it meets the definition of rendering someone unable to tell their behavior is legal or consequential (that standard being the one we use for schizos and the like)

    I mean I am super straight you guys I like chicks a lot but I'm pretty capable of not fucking them most of the time. I don't really ever get a compulsion to fuck a girl so strong that I act on it regardless of consequence.

    It's IMPORTANT to analyze the degree to which pedophiles can tell legal from illegal. I mean, sociopaths are still tried, when they are functionally incapable of feeling moral remorse or compunction, because sociopaths are sill high-functioning in analytical terms and can therefore be held accountable for choosing illegal behavior even if psychologically they can't select moral behavior, right?

    There's more to the mental illness than just finding kids sexually attractive. The chemical balance, or even the structure of their brain is wrong. The truth of the matter is, they may not have the same ability to control their behavior that you or I do.

    Christ, just look at alcoholics and drug addicts. Even after they've made the choice to get sober, staying away from this stuff is a life-long struggle for them that they have to fight every day, and often won't succeed.

    Furthermore, being able to distinguish between "wrong" and "right" only applies to the legal definition of insanity. You can still be mentally ill and know full well your actions are wrong.

    Bionic Monkey on
    sig_megas_armed.jpg
  • MisanthropicMisanthropic Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    We had a guy down the street from us try to lure a 13 year old girl into his car. It turns out it's his 5th FUCKING offense. But Rhode Island is such a libral state that he keeps getting let out after being "cured" or "rewired" or what ever bullshit they call it.

    if some asshole who has touched 4 children touches MY daughter i will kill him. And yes i think that is justice.

    Out of curiosity, do you consider yourself Christian?

    Sounds like he's read the bible a little more carefully than most christians, actually.

    I have an issue with the notion of these men being mentally ill...

    OK, let's say attraction to children is a mental illness. That doesn't mean acting on that attraction is forgivable. Pedophilia may be a mental illness, but I don't think it meets the definition of rendering someone unable to tell their behavior is legal or consequential (that standard being the one we use for schizos and the like)

    I mean I am super straight you guys I like chicks a lot but I'm pretty capable of not fucking them most of the time. I don't really ever get a compulsion to fuck a girl so strong that I act on it regardless of consequence.

    It's IMPORTANT to analyze the degree to which pedophiles can tell legal from illegal. I mean, sociopaths are still tried, when they are functionally incapable of feeling moral remorse or compunction, because sociopaths are sill high-functioning in analytical terms and can therefore be held accountable for choosing illegal behavior even if psychologically they can't select moral behavior, right?

    If he was going literally by the Bible, wouldn't he just have to receive a few gold coins for the de-virgining of his daughter? Or some crazy shit like that.

    Or, you know, forgive those who trespass against us. Or am I missing some "hunt them down and murder them" clause when it comes to Protecting the Children.

    Misanthropic on
  • Penguin_OtakuPenguin_Otaku Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Turn the other cheek is the only thing that came to my mind when it comes to the Bible, but I don't really think God intends for people to throw another child at these perverts.

    At times I think the justice system is pretty FUBAR'd. Seen Death Sentence? Guy saw his kid get killed and could tell the judge who it was. Being as he was the only witness, this guy was only getting 2-3 years at most. So he says, "Screw it." Goes and kills the guy himself.

    There's a point where I think vigilante justice is, to some very small extent, justifiable. The problem with this is people take so many liberties and can start quoting scripture that it makes it look like mob-syndrome and "KILL THE WITCH" or whatever.

    Penguin_Otaku on
    sig-1.jpg
  • VisionOfClarityVisionOfClarity Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Turn the other cheek is the only thing that came to my mind when it comes to the Bible, but I don't really think God intends for people to throw another child at these perverts.

    At times I think the justice system is pretty FUBAR'd. Seen Death Sentence? Guy saw his kid get killed and could tell the judge who it was. Being as he was the only witness, this guy was only getting 2-3 years at most. So he says, "Screw it." Goes and kills the guy himself.

    There's a point where I think vigilante justice is, to some very small extent, justifiable. The problem with this is people take so many liberties and can start quoting scripture that it makes it look like mob-syndrome and "KILL THE WITCH" or whatever.

    Yea but look out how that worked out.
    His wife was killed and his other son was almost killed as well. I wouldn't say that things went smoothly there. In fact, if anything that movie was about everything that's wrong with vigilantism and is in no way a tribute to it.

    VisionOfClarity on
  • KageraKagera Imitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    So we send all pedos to an island where all their needs are taken care of and they never get near another child.

    PROBLEM SOLVED! /sarcasm

    Kagera on
    My neck, my back, my FUPA and my crack.
  • Penguin_OtakuPenguin_Otaku Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Turn the other cheek is the only thing that came to my mind when it comes to the Bible, but I don't really think God intends for people to throw another child at these perverts.

    At times I think the justice system is pretty FUBAR'd. Seen Death Sentence? Guy saw his kid get killed and could tell the judge who it was. Being as he was the only witness, this guy was only getting 2-3 years at most. So he says, "Screw it." Goes and kills the guy himself.

    There's a point where I think vigilante justice is, to some very small extent, justifiable. The problem with this is people take so many liberties and can start quoting scripture that it makes it look like mob-syndrome and "KILL THE WITCH" or whatever.

    Yea but look out how that worked out.
    His wife was killed and his other son was almost killed as well. I wouldn't say that things went smoothly there. In fact, if anything that movie was about everything that's wrong with vigilantism and is in no way a tribute to it.

    I agree. I wasn't saying that the course of action was right in my mind, but some people feel compelled to take the law into their own hands. At some point, hopefully they feel like things have been paid for in their own right. Sometimes the person you messed with has a pretty hardcore gang behind them. You win some, you lose some.

    Penguin_Otaku on
    sig-1.jpg
  • The Man with No NameThe Man with No Name __BANNED USERS regular
    edited June 2008
    There's more to the mental illness than just finding kids sexually attractive. The chemical balance, or even the structure of their brain is wrong. The truth of the matter is, they may not have the same ability to control their behavior that you or I do.


    Lets open a can of worms. If we are going to say that pedophilia is a mental illness and a disease of the mind caused by chemical imbalance, are we prepared to say the same about homosexuality (even though its more accepted than sexual attraction to children)?

    If not, then why the double standard?

    If yes

    The Man with No Name on
    :whistle:
  • MKRMKR Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    There's more to the mental illness than just finding kids sexually attractive. The chemical balance, or even the structure of their brain is wrong. The truth of the matter is, they may not have the same ability to control their behavior that you or I do.


    Lets open a can of worms. If we are going to say that pedophilia is a mental illness and a disease of the mind caused by chemical imbalance, are we prepared to say the same about homosexuality (even though its more accepted than sexual attraction to children)?

    If not, then why the double standard?

    If yes

    I've been trying to come up with some angle to make this work, but it's just instinctively silly. I keep coming back to "God what an idiot.", even though you're probably not.

    MKR on
  • KageraKagera Imitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    Wow, that was epic-level idiocy. I can only hope to one day reach such a feat.

    Kagera on
    My neck, my back, my FUPA and my crack.
  • Regina FongRegina Fong Allons-y, Alonso Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    MKR wrote: »
    There's more to the mental illness than just finding kids sexually attractive. The chemical balance, or even the structure of their brain is wrong. The truth of the matter is, they may not have the same ability to control their behavior that you or I do.


    Lets open a can of worms. If we are going to say that pedophilia is a mental illness and a disease of the mind caused by chemical imbalance, are we prepared to say the same about homosexuality (even though its more accepted than sexual attraction to children)?

    If not, then why the double standard?

    If yes

    I've been trying to come up with some angle to make this work, but it's just instinctively silly. I keep coming back to "God what an idiot.", even though you're probably not.


    No no, he really is an idiot.

    Regina Fong on
  • NakedZerglingNakedZergling A more apocalyptic post apocalypse Portland OregonRegistered User regular
    edited June 2008
    mrflippy wrote: »
    Jesus i don't even know how to talk to someone like you. So if i knew a guy molested/touched/raped my daughter i'm somehow the bad guy if i killed him?
    I heard a rumor somewhere that killing people is illegal.

    Your personal thoughts and feelings are not the basis for the laws.

    Vigilantism will not protect the children.
    Sensational entertainment will not protect the children.
    Whipping people into a frenzy will not protect the children.
    Forcing people on the sex offender list to relocate will not protect the children.
    Making sex offenders feel subhuman will not protect the children.
    Most of the things billed as "protecting the children" will not protect the children.

    :x :x :x



    OK Let me ask an honest question to all the people wanting to point out how stupid i apparently am.
    1) i'm just stating my opinions. I like that mine are stupid but yours are right. I think thats pretty much how everyone feels.

    2) In your honest opinion what are we supposed to do with these people? You guys make it sound like i get off on hounding and harassing sex offenders. I actually could give less than a shit about "vengeance" or doing all the things listed above. I don't care for these people usually but i have never done anything of the things above.

    3) I totally acknowledge that if i killed a molester i would be breaking the law, and i would even turn myself in and face a jury. i wouldn't "sulk in the shadows".


    I just believe that these people are beyond helping. Especially the repeat offenders.
    I don't buy the..."It's society's fault.....blah blah"
    Yes some people have compulsions for deviant behavior....some may even be "wired" that way, and those people need to recognize that in themselves and seek help. If they ignore it and molest/rape, then they should be punished...and if they are lucky enough to be given another chance they need to be closely monitored, for the rest of their lives.

    To try to say that society should "help them try to get better" or whatever to me is unbelievable. Will people hounding them and outing them as molesters to workers and what not help them? NO. but personally i don't care if they get outed. It's the reality that comes with committing the CRIME they committed.

    Even if we all sat around a campfire and sang songs and held hands and told these lovely members of society that we forgive them, and we're here to help them, and we're sorry, it's OUR fault they molested those kids...please have all your rights back. some...most i'm willing to bet, will re offend. It's hard to change who you are...you have to actively WANT to change.



    So you guys get through telling me all the things i'm saying are wrong WHAT prey tell do you think we should do with these people? It's easy to rant and rave and place blame and demand change....it's hard to come up with solutions. So what is your solution. I don't mean this with any type of venom, i'm just honestly curious.

    NakedZergling on
  • Bionic MonkeyBionic Monkey Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited June 2008
    mrflippy wrote: »
    Jesus i don't even know how to talk to someone like you. So if i knew a guy molested/touched/raped my daughter i'm somehow the bad guy if i killed him?
    I heard a rumor somewhere that killing people is illegal.

    Your personal thoughts and feelings are not the basis for the laws.

    Vigilantism will not protect the children.
    Sensational entertainment will not protect the children.
    Whipping people into a frenzy will not protect the children.
    Forcing people on the sex offender list to relocate will not protect the children.
    Making sex offenders feel subhuman will not protect the children.
    Most of the things billed as "protecting the children" will not protect the children.

    :x :x :x



    OK Let me ask an honest question to all the people wanting to point out how stupid i apparently am.
    1) i'm just stating my opinions. I like that mine are stupid but yours are right. I think thats pretty much how everyone feels.

    2) In your honest opinion what are we supposed to do with these people? You guys make it sound like i get off on hounding and harassing sex offenders. I actually could give less than a shit about "vengeance" or doing all the things listed above. I don't care for these people usually but i have never done anything of the things above.

    3) I totally acknowledge that if i killed a molester i would be breaking the law, and i would even turn myself in and face a jury. i wouldn't "sulk in the shadows".


    I just believe that these people are beyond helping. Especially the repeat offenders.
    I don't buy the..."It's society's fault.....blah blah"
    Yes some people have compulsions for deviant behavior....some may even be "wired" that way, and those people need to recognize that in themselves and seek help. If they ignore it and molest/rape, then they should be punished...and if they are lucky enough to be given another chance they need to be closely monitored, for the rest of their lives.

    To try to say that society should "help them try to get better" or whatever to me is unbelievable. Will people hounding them and outing them as molesters to workers and what not help them? NO. but personally i don't care if they get outed. It's the reality that comes with committing the CRIME they committed.

    Even if we all sat around a campfire and sang songs and held hands and told these lovely members of society that we forgive them, and we're here to help them, and we're sorry, it's OUR fault they molested those kids...please have all your rights back. some...most i'm willing to bet, will re offend. It's hard to change who you are...you have to actively WANT to change.



    So you guys get through telling me all the things i'm saying are wrong WHAT prey tell do you think we should do with these people? It's easy to rant and rave and place blame and demand change....it's hard to come up with solutions. So what is your solution. I don't mean this with any type of venom, i'm just honestly curious.

    God damn. Are you capable, at all, of making a post that doesn't consist of strawmen arguments? Maybe when you stop painting the opposition as liberal hippies that just want to have a good cry with the child molestors, we could have a good discussion.

    Bionic Monkey on
    sig_megas_armed.jpg
  • MKRMKR Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    mrflippy wrote: »
    Jesus i don't even know how to talk to someone like you. So if i knew a guy molested/touched/raped my daughter i'm somehow the bad guy if i killed him?
    I heard a rumor somewhere that killing people is illegal.

    Your personal thoughts and feelings are not the basis for the laws.

    Vigilantism will not protect the children.
    Sensational entertainment will not protect the children.
    Whipping people into a frenzy will not protect the children.
    Forcing people on the sex offender list to relocate will not protect the children.
    Making sex offenders feel subhuman will not protect the children.
    Most of the things billed as "protecting the children" will not protect the children.

    :x :x :x



    OK Let me ask an honest question to all the people wanting to point out how stupid i apparently am.
    1) i'm just stating my opinions. I like that mine are stupid but yours are right. I think thats pretty much how everyone feels.

    2) In your honest opinion what are we supposed to do with these people? You guys make it sound like i get off on hounding and harassing sex offenders. I actually could give less than a shit about "vengeance" or doing all the things listed above. I don't care for these people usually but i have never done anything of the things above.

    3) I totally acknowledge that if i killed a molester i would be breaking the law, and i would even turn myself in and face a jury. i wouldn't "sulk in the shadows".


    I just believe that these people are beyond helping. Especially the repeat offenders.
    I don't buy the..."It's society's fault.....blah blah"
    Yes some people have compulsions for deviant behavior....some may even be "wired" that way, and those people need to recognize that in themselves and seek help. If they ignore it and molest/rape, then they should be punished...and if they are lucky enough to be given another chance they need to be closely monitored, for the rest of their lives.

    To try to say that society should "help them try to get better" or whatever to me is unbelievable. Will people hounding them and outing them as molesters to workers and what not help them? NO. but personally i don't care if they get outed. It's the reality that comes with committing the CRIME they committed.

    Even if we all sat around a campfire and sang songs and held hands and told these lovely members of society that we forgive them, and we're here to help them, and we're sorry, it's OUR fault they molested those kids...please have all your rights back. some...most i'm willing to bet, will re offend. It's hard to change who you are...you have to actively WANT to change.



    So you guys get through telling me all the things i'm saying are wrong WHAT prey tell do you think we should do with these people? It's easy to rant and rave and place blame and demand change....it's hard to come up with solutions. So what is your solution. I don't mean this with any type of venom, i'm just honestly curious.

    Ok, since you want to go the "appeal to emotion" route: What about the family of the rapist? Does the suffering caused to them make up for the suffering caused to the victim and his or her family?

    MKR on
  • NakedZerglingNakedZergling A more apocalyptic post apocalypse Portland OregonRegistered User regular
    edited June 2008
    MKR wrote: »
    Starcross wrote: »
    I don't get how some of these people even get in trouble. I mean, like someone mentioned in early posts that maybe this guys never plan to do anything.

    The guy who didn't show up? He didn't show up for a reason. There are always people out there looking for some sort of thrill and maybe thats what they guy was looking for. Unconventional to most of us, sure, but thats how he got off. He either knew it was itsatrap.jpg or never had intentions of going through with it.

    So, when his shit gets plastered everywhere that he's some sort of child butt raper, thats gonna fuck with you. Most of those people go in there and say, "My life is ruined." They know it is. They know, though, that most of it was of them even showing up.

    Perhaps I'm missing something or I just don't know.

    Soliciting a minor for sex is illegal, even if you don't intend to actually go through with it.

    What does the law say when that minor is soliciting back?

    It doesn't matter! they're a minor!

    Um officer i purchased this alcohol for these 13 year olds...but they WANTED it.... That wouldn't fly either.

    NakedZergling on
  • NakedZerglingNakedZergling A more apocalyptic post apocalypse Portland OregonRegistered User regular
    edited June 2008
    We had a guy down the street from us try to lure a 13 year old girl into his car. It turns out it's his 5th FUCKING offense. But Rhode Island is such a libral state that he keeps getting let out after being "cured" or "rewired" or what ever bullshit they call it.

    if some asshole who has touched 4 children touches MY daughter i will kill him. And yes i think that is justice.

    Out of curiosity, do you consider yourself Christian?

    100% NOOOOOOOoooooooo

    NakedZergling on
  • MKRMKR Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    MKR wrote: »
    Starcross wrote: »
    I don't get how some of these people even get in trouble. I mean, like someone mentioned in early posts that maybe this guys never plan to do anything.

    The guy who didn't show up? He didn't show up for a reason. There are always people out there looking for some sort of thrill and maybe thats what they guy was looking for. Unconventional to most of us, sure, but thats how he got off. He either knew it was itsatrap.jpg or never had intentions of going through with it.

    So, when his shit gets plastered everywhere that he's some sort of child butt raper, thats gonna fuck with you. Most of those people go in there and say, "My life is ruined." They know it is. They know, though, that most of it was of them even showing up.

    Perhaps I'm missing something or I just don't know.

    Soliciting a minor for sex is illegal, even if you don't intend to actually go through with it.

    What does the law say when that minor is soliciting back?

    It doesn't matter! they're a minor!

    Um officer i purchased this alcohol for these 13 year olds...but they WANTED it.... That wouldn't fly either.

    Why doesn't it matter?

    MKR on
  • NakedZerglingNakedZergling A more apocalyptic post apocalypse Portland OregonRegistered User regular
    edited June 2008
    mrflippy wrote: »
    Jesus i don't even know how to talk to someone like you. So if i knew a guy molested/touched/raped my daughter i'm somehow the bad guy if i killed him?
    I heard a rumor somewhere that killing people is illegal.

    Your personal thoughts and feelings are not the basis for the laws.

    Vigilantism will not protect the children.
    Sensational entertainment will not protect the children.
    Whipping people into a frenzy will not protect the children.
    Forcing people on the sex offender list to relocate will not protect the children.
    Making sex offenders feel subhuman will not protect the children.
    Most of the things billed as "protecting the children" will not protect the children.

    :x :x :x



    OK Let me ask an honest question to all the people wanting to point out how stupid i apparently am.
    1) i'm just stating my opinions. I like that mine are stupid but yours are right. I think thats pretty much how everyone feels.

    2) In your honest opinion what are we supposed to do with these people? You guys make it sound like i get off on hounding and harassing sex offenders. I actually could give less than a shit about "vengeance" or doing all the things listed above. I don't care for these people usually but i have never done anything of the things above.

    3) I totally acknowledge that if i killed a molester i would be breaking the law, and i would even turn myself in and face a jury. i wouldn't "sulk in the shadows".


    I just believe that these people are beyond helping. Especially the repeat offenders.
    I don't buy the..."It's society's fault.....blah blah"
    Yes some people have compulsions for deviant behavior....some may even be "wired" that way, and those people need to recognize that in themselves and seek help. If they ignore it and molest/rape, then they should be punished...and if they are lucky enough to be given another chance they need to be closely monitored, for the rest of their lives.

    To try to say that society should "help them try to get better" or whatever to me is unbelievable. Will people hounding them and outing them as molesters to workers and what not help them? NO. but personally i don't care if they get outed. It's the reality that comes with committing the CRIME they committed.

    Even if we all sat around a campfire and sang songs and held hands and told these lovely members of society that we forgive them, and we're here to help them, and we're sorry, it's OUR fault they molested those kids...please have all your rights back. some...most i'm willing to bet, will re offend. It's hard to change who you are...you have to actively WANT to change.



    So you guys get through telling me all the things i'm saying are wrong WHAT prey tell do you think we should do with these people? It's easy to rant and rave and place blame and demand change....it's hard to come up with solutions. So what is your solution. I don't mean this with any type of venom, i'm just honestly curious.

    God damn. Are you capable, at all, of making a post that doesn't consist of strawmen arguments? Maybe when you stop painting the opposition as liberal hippies that just want to have a good cry with the child molestors, we could have a good discussion.


    I like how you yet again dodged giving a reasonable solution that didn't revolve around trying to paint me as "wrong". .......amazing

    NakedZergling on
  • SlickShughesSlickShughes Registered User regular
    edited June 2008
    We had a guy down the street from us try to lure a 13 year old girl into his car. It turns out it's his 5th FUCKING offense. But Rhode Island is such a libral state that he keeps getting let out after being "cured" or "rewired" or what ever bullshit they call it.

    if some asshole who has touched 4 children touches MY daughter i will kill him. And yes i think that is justice.

    Why would your desire for vengeance increase just because the molester was a repeat offender? I would think you would be just as upset if it was his first crime.

    SlickShughes on
  • Bionic MonkeyBionic Monkey Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited June 2008
    OK Let me ask an honest question to all the people wanting to point out how stupid i apparently am.
    1) i'm just stating my opinions. I like that mine are stupid but yours are right. I think thats pretty much how everyone feels.

    2) In your honest opinion what are we supposed to do with these people? You guys make it sound like i get off on hounding and harassing sex offenders. I actually could give less than a shit about "vengeance" or doing all the things listed above. I don't care for these people usually but i have never done anything of the things above.

    3) I totally acknowledge that if i killed a molester i would be breaking the law, and i would even turn myself in and face a jury. i wouldn't "sulk in the shadows".


    I just believe that these people are beyond helping. Especially the repeat offenders.
    I don't buy the..."It's society's fault.....blah blah"
    Yes some people have compulsions for deviant behavior....some may even be "wired" that way, and those people need to recognize that in themselves and seek help. If they ignore it and molest/rape, then they should be punished...and if they are lucky enough to be given another chance they need to be closely monitored, for the rest of their lives.

    To try to say that society should "help them try to get better" or whatever to me is unbelievable. Will people hounding them and outing them as molesters to workers and what not help them? NO. but personally i don't care if they get outed. It's the reality that comes with committing the CRIME they committed.

    Even if we all sat around a campfire and sang songs and held hands and told these lovely members of society that we forgive them, and we're here to help them, and we're sorry, it's OUR fault they molested those kids...please have all your rights back. some...most i'm willing to bet, will re offend. It's hard to change who you are...you have to actively WANT to change.



    So you guys get through telling me all the things i'm saying are wrong WHAT prey tell do you think we should do with these people? It's easy to rant and rave and place blame and demand change....it's hard to come up with solutions. So what is your solution. I don't mean this with any type of venom, i'm just honestly curious.

    God damn. Are you capable, at all, of making a post that doesn't consist of strawmen arguments? Maybe when you stop painting the opposition as liberal hippies that just want to have a good cry with the child molestors, we could have a good discussion.
    I like how you yet again dodged giving a reasonable solution that didn't revolve around trying to paint me as "wrong". .......amazing
    Tell me again how I tell child rapists it's my fault, and I want to sing songs and hold hands around a campfire.

    Bionic Monkey on
    sig_megas_armed.jpg
  • NakedZerglingNakedZergling A more apocalyptic post apocalypse Portland OregonRegistered User regular
    edited June 2008
    MKR wrote: »
    MKR wrote: »
    Starcross wrote: »
    I don't get how some of these people even get in trouble. I mean, like someone mentioned in early posts that maybe this guys never plan to do anything.

    The guy who didn't show up? He didn't show up for a reason. There are always people out there looking for some sort of thrill and maybe thats what they guy was looking for. Unconventional to most of us, sure, but thats how he got off. He either knew it was itsatrap.jpg or never had intentions of going through with it.

    So, when his shit gets plastered everywhere that he's some sort of child butt raper, thats gonna fuck with you. Most of those people go in there and say, "My life is ruined." They know it is. They know, though, that most of it was of them even showing up.

    Perhaps I'm missing something or I just don't know.

    Soliciting a minor for sex is illegal, even if you don't intend to actually go through with it.

    What does the law say when that minor is soliciting back?

    It doesn't matter! they're a minor!

    Um officer i purchased this alcohol for these 13 year olds...but they WANTED it.... That wouldn't fly either.

    Why doesn't it matter?

    The minor can get in trouble for trying to purchase alcohol, but as far as i know there are no laws prohibiting a minor from tying to solicit an adult for sex. Its amazing that in our society we may need to make that law. But i'm pretty sure the "well i guess we need to make another law to support common sense" will show up. The common sense that the one law of adults having sex with minors being illegal covered the whole issue of minors soliciting an adults. But maybe we need another law saying.."now children, i know most of you 12 year olds want to fuck and old guy, but ya gotta say no"

    NakedZergling on
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