I don't get how some of these people even get in trouble. I mean, like someone mentioned in early posts that maybe this guys never plan to do anything.
The guy who didn't show up? He didn't show up for a reason. There are always people out there looking for some sort of thrill and maybe thats what they guy was looking for. Unconventional to most of us, sure, but thats how he got off. He either knew it was itsatrap.jpg or never had intentions of going through with it.
So, when his shit gets plastered everywhere that he's some sort of child butt raper, thats gonna fuck with you. Most of those people go in there and say, "My life is ruined." They know it is. They know, though, that most of it was of them even showing up.
Perhaps I'm missing something or I just don't know.
Soliciting a minor for sex is illegal, even if you don't intend to actually go through with it.
What does the law say when that minor is soliciting back?
It doesn't matter! they're a minor!
Um officer i purchased this alcohol for these 13 year olds...but they WANTED it.... That wouldn't fly either.
Why doesn't it matter?
The minor can get in trouble for trying to purchase alcohol, but as far as i know there are no laws prohibiting a minor from tying to solicit an adult for sex. Its amazing that in our society we may need to make that law. But i'm pretty sure the "well i guess we need to make another law to support common sense" will show up. The common sense that the one law of adults having sex with minors being illegal covered the whole issue of minors soliciting an adults. But maybe we need another law saying.."now children, i know most of you 12 year olds want to fuck and old guy, but ya gotta say no"
One involves a minor abusing a mentally ill (or horny) person's state of mind (enticing them to come have sex). The other does not involve this.
The two are not the same.
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TL DRNot at all confident in his reflexive opinions of thingsRegistered Userregular
The minor can get in trouble for trying to purchase alcohol, but as far as i know there are no laws prohibiting a minor from tying to solicit an adult for sex. Its amazing that in our society we may need to make that law. But i'm pretty sure the "well i guess we need to make another law to support common sense" will show up. The common sense that the one law of adults having sex with minors being illegal covered the whole issue of minors soliciting an adults. But maybe we need another law saying.."now children, i know most of you 12 year olds want to fuck and old guy, but ya gotta say no"
OK Let me ask an honest question to all the people wanting to point out how stupid i apparently am.
1) i'm just stating my opinions. I like that mine are stupid but yours are right. I think thats pretty much how everyone feels.
2) In your honest opinion what are we supposed to do with these people? You guys make it sound like i get off on hounding and harassing sex offenders. I actually could give less than a shit about "vengeance" or doing all the things listed above. I don't care for these people usually but i have never done anything of the things above.
3) I totally acknowledge that if i killed a molester i would be breaking the law, and i would even turn myself in and face a jury. i wouldn't "sulk in the shadows".
I just believe that these people are beyond helping. Especially the repeat offenders.
I don't buy the..."It's society's fault.....blah blah"
Yes some people have compulsions for deviant behavior....some may even be "wired" that way, and those people need to recognize that in themselves and seek help. If they ignore it and molest/rape, then they should be punished...and if they are lucky enough to be given another chance they need to be closely monitored, for the rest of their lives.
To try to say that society should "help them try to get better" or whatever to me is unbelievable. Will people hounding them and outing them as molesters to workers and what not help them? NO. but personally i don't care if they get outed. It's the reality that comes with committing the CRIME they committed.
Even if we all sat around a campfire and sang songs and held hands and told these lovely members of society that we forgive them, and we're here to help them, and we're sorry, it's OUR fault they molested those kids...please have all your rights back. some...most i'm willing to bet, will re offend. It's hard to change who you are...you have to actively WANT to change.
So you guys get through telling me all the things i'm saying are wrong WHAT prey tell do you think we should do with these people? It's easy to rant and rave and place blame and demand change....it's hard to come up with solutions. So what is your solution. I don't mean this with any type of venom, i'm just honestly curious.
God damn. Are you capable, at all, of making a post that doesn't consist of strawmen arguments? Maybe when you stop painting the opposition as liberal hippies that just want to have a good cry with the child molestors, we could have a good discussion.
I like how you yet again dodged giving a reasonable solution that didn't revolve around trying to paint me as "wrong". .......amazing
Tell me again how I tell child rapists it's my fault, and I want to sing songs and hold hands around a campfire.
Dude i wish i knew why it was MY fault. But i seem to be the ONLY person here not defending child rapists!
And bionic...i Guess my rage would be higher because I think the laws (at least in my area) are very lax on this. We have a lot of people re-offending. So in my mind if someone who was let out (keeping in mind i think they should stay locked up) for the 3rd or 4th time molests a kid. It makes me feel like the system has failed. My rage would probably be at the pathetic system that lets these people reoffend, but would be taken out on the offender. I'm NOT saying violence ir right...as a matter of fact i have struggled my whole life with having an EXPLOSIVE temper. I have sought help for it, and theres times it's almost gotten me in trouble. It's something i have to wrestle with internally daily.
If i snap one day and kill someone should i be shown sympathy because i've had doctors literally say i have issues with rage, that i've had to have treated? Do i get a free pass and get to go free, or spend time in a mental facility? ..i could prob argue that but i wouldn't. I would do whatever time i was given because i would recognize the fact that i fucked up and lost control. If i was lucky enough to get out i would expect that i would be monitored for the rest of my life and have many of my right stripped away.
When i start to lose my shit i force myself to think of these things to keep myself in check, even when every fiber wants to fight.
OK Let me ask an honest question to all the people wanting to point out how stupid i apparently am.
1) i'm just stating my opinions. I like that mine are stupid but yours are right. I think thats pretty much how everyone feels.
2) In your honest opinion what are we supposed to do with these people? You guys make it sound like i get off on hounding and harassing sex offenders. I actually could give less than a shit about "vengeance" or doing all the things listed above. I don't care for these people usually but i have never done anything of the things above.
3) I totally acknowledge that if i killed a molester i would be breaking the law, and i would even turn myself in and face a jury. i wouldn't "sulk in the shadows".
I just believe that these people are beyond helping. Especially the repeat offenders.
I don't buy the..."It's society's fault.....blah blah"
Yes some people have compulsions for deviant behavior....some may even be "wired" that way, and those people need to recognize that in themselves and seek help. If they ignore it and molest/rape, then they should be punished...and if they are lucky enough to be given another chance they need to be closely monitored, for the rest of their lives.
To try to say that society should "help them try to get better" or whatever to me is unbelievable. Will people hounding them and outing them as molesters to workers and what not help them? NO. but personally i don't care if they get outed. It's the reality that comes with committing the CRIME they committed.
Even if we all sat around a campfire and sang songs and held hands and told these lovely members of society that we forgive them, and we're here to help them, and we're sorry, it's OUR fault they molested those kids...please have all your rights back. some...most i'm willing to bet, will re offend. It's hard to change who you are...you have to actively WANT to change.
So you guys get through telling me all the things i'm saying are wrong WHAT prey tell do you think we should do with these people? It's easy to rant and rave and place blame and demand change....it's hard to come up with solutions. So what is your solution. I don't mean this with any type of venom, i'm just honestly curious.
God damn. Are you capable, at all, of making a post that doesn't consist of strawmen arguments? Maybe when you stop painting the opposition as liberal hippies that just want to have a good cry with the child molestors, we could have a good discussion.
I like how you yet again dodged giving a reasonable solution that didn't revolve around trying to paint me as "wrong". .......amazing
Tell me again how I tell child rapists it's my fault, and I want to sing songs and hold hands around a campfire.
Dude i wish i knew why it was MY fault. But i seem to be the ONLY person here not defending child rapists!
And bionic...i Guess my rage would be higher because I think the laws (at least in my area) are very lax on this. We have a lot of people re-offending. So in my mind if someone who was let out (keeping in mind i think they should stay locked up) for the 3rd or 4th time molests a kid. It makes me feel like the system has failed. My rage would probably be at the pathetic system that lets these people reoffend, but would be taken out on the offender. I'm NOT saying violence ir right...as a matter of fact i have struggled my whole life with having an EXPLOSIVE temper. I have sought help for it, and theres times it's almost gotten me in trouble. It's something i have to wrestle with internally daily.
If i snap one day and kill someone should i be shown sympathy because i've had doctors literally say i have issues with rage, that i've had to have treated? Do i get a free pass and get to go free, or spend time in a mental facility? ..i could prob argue that but i wouldn't. I would do whatever time i was given because i would recognize the fact that i fucked up and lost control. If i was lucky enough to get out i would expect that i would be monitored for the rest of my life and have many of my right stripped away.
When i start to lose my shit i force myself to think of these things to keep myself in check, even when every fiber wants to fight.
You're not going to find a single person here that says these people shouldn't be punished for their actions. But this isn't the same as robbing a house, where if you do it over and over, it's clear you just don't care about your actions. Like we keep saying, these people have a compulsion that they have difficulty controlling. While being punished, and after as well, they need help to control these compulsions to make sure they don't reoffend again. It's never going to be 100% effective, but the price we pay for living in a free society is that everything won't always be perfect, and sometimes these people will slip through the cracks, leaving us to clean up the mess.
Even if you can conclusively say "Pedophilia is a mental illness", that doesn't make pedophiles blameless when they act out their disorder.
I have Anti-Social Personality Disorder. I have poor impulse control, and there are things I think and want to do on a regular basis which are simply unacceptable and outright illegal.
As a cognitive, conscious adult male I have the mental capacity to recognize these things as unacceptable, even if my brain can't process an associated feeling of guilt with them.
If I went around doing these things, I don't think I get to say "I'm a sociopath, it's a legitimate mental condition! No touchbacks!"
No. I have to take responsibility for my actions like an adult. It's not my fault, per se, that I feel this way but it's certainly my fault if I act out those impulses.
This is why I have mixed feelings towards "lolicon" and other kinds of fake child pornography. On one hand, clearly anyone who enjoys that stuff has pedophiliac urges, and it's arguable that this stuff is enabling their problem, reinforcing these thoughts until inevitably, they're going to cross over to real children or at least real child porn.
However, it also equally arguable that this sort of material could have a potentially theraputic aspect, satiating these mentally ill people's need for this sort of thing while not allowing real children to come to harm.
And I can see the validity in that, because I know after a particularely frustrating day, turning on Grand Theft Auto and blowing away some virtual Russian mobsters makes me feel worlds better and helps manage my violent impulses. If it's okay for me to commit one kind of virtual crime in order to appease a socially unacceptable urge, who am I to judge them?
Nonetheless, I think it's universally fair to say that as soon as these people make the choice to act out on their impulses, they are making a cognitive choice they can be held accountable for.
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NakedZerglingA more apocalyptic post apocalypse Portland OregonRegistered Userregular
edited June 2008
Pony...i totally agree with you.
But ( and we shouldn't bother touching too much into this i know) There are people that would insist CG child porn WILL lead to the actual thing. Same with GTA leading to actual crimes, and weed leading to harder drugs. These are all debates that may fall under the agree to disagree category. My personal thought is that if you're an adult you should be able to look at any porn you want (excluding one that break laws), listen to any music, and play any games. But other feel different...again i feel it's people wanting to just pass the buck.
and out of curiosity has anyone else seen the movie "The Woodsman". It deals with a pedophile after he's been released.
The people who say that animated child porn will lead to child rape and GTA will lead to murder have a valid point.
If you're on a constant diet of material that dehumanizes and depersonalizes others it is going to have a mental effect on you and it may become inevitable that a person who has a pre-existing mental illness is going to act out the things they've up until now been fantasized about.
In that case, it's a matter of exposure. If you are constantly fapping to loli porn, if it's everything you watch, you have posters of child actors around your walls, etc. eventually all that stuff is just going to pile on.
So it's a matter of moderation. Material like this, or violent material for people with violent urges, might help satiate the urge for a time, but it's something they have to do in moderation.
Even though I manage my own condition pretty well, if I sat there watching Hostel on loop all day and sharpening knives all day broken up with sessions of kill rampages in GTA I am pretty sure that would have a negative effect on my mental state.
Apparently either you don't, or you don't actually know what you're arguing about. The whole matter at hand is that a presumed pedophile did not go to the Chris Hansen trap as planned, and stayed home. The cops came for him anyway and he shot himself.
NakedZerglingA more apocalyptic post apocalypse Portland OregonRegistered Userregular
edited June 2008
I run a video game store and there are kids who come in every day that i think are little serial killers in the making. I'm not blind to the effect media of all forms has on todays youth. Something else i noticed though, is the parents that let their really young kids play this stuff seem like pretty shitty parents.
I naturally ask for id for anyone buying m games. kids will come in with their parents, and i will let the parents know about the content. and TONS of parents (most actually) have given up saying stuff along the lines of -he plays it anyway...it keeps him out of my hair....his father will just buy it for him....he plays it at his fathers house....killing is fine as long as there's no nudity.
The morals in this country are amazing.
Even seeing that effect i think adults should still be able to play that if they choose to.
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NakedZerglingA more apocalyptic post apocalypse Portland OregonRegistered Userregular
Apparently either you don't, or you don't actually know what you're arguing about. The whole matter at hand is that a presumed pedophile did not go to the Chris Hansen trap as planned, and stayed home. The cops came for him anyway and he shot himself.
1) the guy chose to shoot himself, so i don't feel bad. I have never felt bad for people who kill themselves.
2) someone made the point that they should have just sent 2 officers to scoop him up, and not a fucking swat team or whatever...i believe this is a valid point.
3) The guy did break the law. I don't get why people are seeming to feel bad for him. Maybe there are things we don't know about the case? maybe the guy mentioned in his convo about prior acts or having a weapon or something. More than likely the cops just wanted to look like hotshots for the camera.
any way you slice HE broke the law, not NBC, or Chris Hansen or the cops. HE killed himself. Not Chris Hansen or the cops, or NBC. If he hadn't talked to a minor about sex he would be alive, so i don't get the issue.
I think Chris Hansen and his co. are at least partly responsible for the guy's suicide.
The guy was mentally ill. He needed to be institutionalized, not SWAT teamed.
But if he didn't seek help...or people close to him seek it for him what was the outcome?
OR is the argument that these guys doing this are somehow reaching out for help?
Would you guys be ok with these stings if there were stipulations? such as if the people who are caught are required to meet with a state psychologist as a minimum to determine their mental state then proceded from there? Those who agree to that maybe aren't arrested publicly? (or at all if there's no evidence on their computers of other offenses?)
I would be open to trying something like that, but then theres a whole new can of worms. Who would pay for the Shrinks and the meds? How long are the "treated". What happens if they continue their behavior?
As i think about it this type of system could probably be more ideal...but then we wouldn't have the show.
1) the guy chose to shoot himself, so i don't feel bad.
That's swell. So we've established that you're basically a pretty shitty person. You have no ability to feel sympathy for anyone who you feel has done wrong.
I have never felt bad for people who kill themselves.
It sounds like you don't feel very much aside from rage and hatred at people you don't know. I could be wrong, this is only how you come across on the internet after all.
2) someone made the point that they should have just sent 2 officers to scoop him up, and not a fucking swat team or whatever...i believe this is a valid point.
So would a jury, and that's why they settled with the family. They were wrong, and they would have lost.
Maybe there are things we don't know about the case? maybe the guy mentioned in his convo about prior acts or having a weapon or something. More than likely the cops just wanted to look like hotshots for the camera.
Mitigating circumstances? Perhaps, but then why settle?
Not Chris Hansen or the cops, or NBC. If he hadn't talked to a minor about sex he would be alive, so i don't get the issue.
He never talked to a minor about sex. There's not even any proof that he believed he was talking to a real minor, and not an adult pretending to be a child (such roleplaying fantasies are not unheard of on the internet). Without actually showing up to the house where a supposed minor was waiting for hot pedo sex, he was not guilty of anything but thoughtcrime, but yes, we know you think thoughtcrime should carry the death penalty, we don't need to hear it again.
Pretty much I am against To Catch A Predator, I think it is entrapment, and I think that what they are doing is outright illegal and constitutes vigilantism.
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NakedZerglingA more apocalyptic post apocalypse Portland OregonRegistered Userregular
edited June 2008
You know what? You're a pretty self righteous Fuck jeepguy. You have offered NO content as to how these people should be handled. You bitch and complain from the safety of your living room, passing judgment on me because i believe something different than you.
You're an amazing hypocrite man. I say i don't care about someone who killed himself, and you accuse me of being a shitty person. You haven't even considered trying to see it my way let alone respect anyone who has a different opinion than yourself.
So fuck you. You don't know shit about me aside from what you know about 1 internet topic. But judge away there hotshot.
Come on. Lets see the snappy come back you have instead of the acknowledgment that as much as i am "judging" some guy i don't know, your doing the exact same thing to me BECAUSE I DISAGREE WITH YOU. well the world would be a pretty great place if we all thought exactly the way you do because clearly YOU are ALWAYS correct in your morales and opinions eh?
Fuck you.
edit.
Aside from pointing out how wrong EVERYONE is from the people here to the cops, how correct you think you are, and waxing poetic about a system that is flawed you've brought NOTHING to the table. There is no debate and discourse with you. You think you're right. Period.
at least admit it so you can have some respect and not just be a fucking joke.
You're an amazing hypocrite man. I say i don't care about someone who killed himself, and you accuse me of being a shitty person. You haven't even considered trying to see it my way let alone respect anyone who has a different opinion than yourself.
Because a shitty person doesn't care that a person killed themselves. Period. It means that we, as a society, have failed to fix that person.
He never talked to a minor about sex. There's not even any proof that he believed he was talking to a real minor, and not an adult pretending to be a child (such roleplaying fantasies are not unheard of on the internet). Without actually showing up to the house where a supposed minor was waiting for hot pedo sex, he was not guilty of anything but thoughtcrime, but yes, we know you think thoughtcrime should carry the death penalty, we don't need to hear it again.
My god, you raise an interesting point that I had not considered. Do you think their are people out there who do not realize that every 12-25 year old girl on the internet is really a 14-70 year old male? I mean where the case to go to court could the defendant argue that he thought the underage girl in question was really a man pretending to be a girl?
Its illegal to proposition minors, but if he thought it was all a fantasy between him and another consenting adult how does that work out?
What SHOULD be done is pretty obvious. Pedophiles and other sex offenders should be in solitary confinement, in a building that is not used for other criminals(you put a sex offender in a regular prison and the people find out what he did, he has a significant chance of being killed), while receiving mandatory psychiatric treatment. Upon their release, their name and location is kept only on an internal list, not splayed out publicly so they can be hunted down and beaten to death by vigilantes.
This, of course, would require a governmental and punishment system that actually fucking WORK, as opposed to the lurching zombie beast we have now.
Calm down man, I do not care if he killed himself either. However lashing out is off topic, do try and stay on topic. Its not societies job to "fix people". However if a national tv show declares you a pedophile, and sends the swat team to your house thats kinda fucked up, wouldn't you agree?
My god, you raise an interesting point that I had not considered. Do you think their are people out there who do not realize that every 12-25 year old girl on the internet is really a 14-70 year old male? I mean where the case to go to court could the defendant argue that he thought the underage girl in question was really a man pretending to be a girl?
Its illegal to proposition minors, but if he thought it was all a fantasy between him and another consenting adult how does that work out?
As that story about a 13 year old girl pretending to be a 19 year old shows us, you'd be convicted of a crime and sent to prison for 5 years.
Apparently either you don't, or you don't actually know what you're arguing about. The whole matter at hand is that a presumed pedophile did not go to the Chris Hansen trap as planned, and stayed home. The cops came for him anyway and he shot himself.
1) the guy chose to shoot himself, so i don't feel bad. I have never felt bad for people who kill themselves.
I'm not trying to turn this into a depression thread, but I think I found the problem.
My god, you raise an interesting point that I had not considered. Do you think their are people out there who do not realize that every 12-25 year old girl on the internet is really a 14-70 year old male? I mean where the case to go to court could the defendant argue that he thought the underage girl in question was really a man pretending to be a girl?
Its illegal to proposition minors, but if he thought it was all a fantasy between him and another consenting adult how does that work out?
As that story about a 13 year old girl pretending to be a 19 year old shows us, you'd be convicted of a crime and sent to prison for 5 years.
OK so in order to remove people i dont like from society.
Step 0. Borrow a 13 year old girl.
Step 1. Convince her to message my enemies and have them engage in sexual conversation.
Step 2. Alert Local Authorities.
Step 4. Profit.
You're an amazing hypocrite man. I say i don't care about someone who killed himself, and you accuse me of being a shitty person. You haven't even considered trying to see it my way let alone respect anyone who has a different opinion than yourself.
Because a shitty person doesn't care that a person killed themselves. Period. It means that we, as a society, have failed to fix that person.
Also that's not the definition of a hypocrite.
Again. Because i don't have the same beliefs you do i'm a shitty person?
because some guy i have NEVER met killed himself, I'M a bad person? Well thats a load of fucking shit. So we should have big old hearts for everyone (except naturally people who disagree with us on the internet) and be sad for every person who dies?
I understand the situation sucks, And i feel for his family and those affected by his death. The pressure of dealing with the loss and having the whole ordeal drudged through the media and court of public opinion is something people shouldn't have to deal with. and if he hadn't killed himself they wouldn't have to. I think killing yourself is an amazing act of selfishness. (im excluding extreme cases where their sacrifice saves another, or someone is terminally ill and has no quality of life)
I feel for those people, but i don't feel for him. He chose to kill himself. Maybe there were outside pressures, but bottom line is EVERYONE has outside pressures EVERYDAY. People have bills demons, sickness, sadness, and in this case cops busting down your door.
Obviously this guy wasn't right in the head. And this pushed him over. What if it wasn't the cops..what about the people who kill themselves after a break up? Should the person who dumped the feel responsible? Should they be charged or sued, or be blasted like you guys blast the cops?
You guys spout such venom at me because i disagree with you. If you found out i offed myself because i couldn't live in a world with such narrow minded thinkers would you say "it's so sad..." or laugh your ass off. I bet on laughter.
You guys spout such venom at me because i disagree with you. If you found out i offed myself because i couldn't live in a world with such narrow minded thinkers would you say "it's so sad..." or laugh your ass off. I bet on laughter.
You're an amazing hypocrite man. I say i don't care about someone who killed himself, and you accuse me of being a shitty person. You haven't even considered trying to see it my way let alone respect anyone who has a different opinion than yourself.
Because a shitty person doesn't care that a person killed themselves. Period. It means that we, as a society, have failed to fix that person.
Also that's not the definition of a hypocrite.
Again. Because i don't have the same beliefs you do i'm a shitty person?
because some guy i have NEVER met killed himself, I'M a bad person? Well thats a load of fucking shit. So we should have big old hearts for everyone (except naturally people who disagree with us on the internet) and be sad for every person who dies?
I understand the situation sucks, And i feel for his family and those affected by his death. The pressure of dealing with the loss and having the whole ordeal drudged through the media and court of public opinion is something people shouldn't have to deal with. and if he hadn't killed himself they wouldn't have to. I think killing yourself is an amazing act of selfishness. (im excluding extreme cases where their sacrifice saves another, or someone is terminally ill and has no quality of life)
I feel for those people, but i don't feel for him. He chose to kill himself. Maybe there were outside pressures, but bottom line is EVERYONE has outside pressures EVERYDAY. People have bills demons, sickness, sadness, and in this case cops busting down your door.
Obviously this guy wasn't right in the head. And this pushed him over. What if it wasn't the cops..what about the people who kill themselves after a break up? Should the person who dumped the feel responsible? Should they be charged or sued, or be blasted like you guys blast the cops?
You guys spout such venom at me because i disagree with you. If you found out i offed myself because i couldn't live in a world with such narrow minded thinkers would you say "it's so sad..." or laugh your ass off. I bet on laughter.
A lover who dumps another is not analogous to someone hearing about a suicide and feeling bad about the person and their family. Quit being dumb.
Again. Because i don't have the same beliefs you do i'm a shitty person?
because some guy i have NEVER met killed himself, I'M a bad person? Well thats a load of fucking shit. So we should have big old hearts for everyone (except naturally people who disagree with us on the internet) and be sad for every person who dies?
They feel your lack of empathy makes you a shitty person.
I understand the situation sucks, And i feel for his family and those affected by his death. The pressure of dealing with the loss and having the whole ordeal drudged through the media and court of public opinion is something people shouldn't have to deal with. and if he hadn't killed himself they wouldn't have to. I think killing yourself is an amazing act of selfishness. (im excluding extreme cases where their sacrifice saves another, or someone is terminally ill and has no quality of life)
Personally I feel its your life, if you want to check out feel free. Oddly enough my best friend thinks grieving is an amazing act of selfishness. It really comes down to perspective.
Obviously this guy wasn't right in the head. And this pushed him over. What if it wasn't the cops..what about the people who kill themselves after a break up? Should the person who dumped the feel responsible? Should they be charged or sued, or be blasted like you guys blast the cops?
The problem lies in the fact that this show actively set out to ruin this mans life for ratings. Their job is to locate people, convince them to say things to minors, and then laugh when they get caught. Well oops, appears their little vigilante crusade caused someone to die, and they were found at fault for that. Their was sufficient evidence that this show fucked up that they did not want it to go to trial.
You guys spout such venom at me because i disagree with you. If you found out i offed myself because i couldn't live in a world with such narrow minded thinkers would you say "it's so sad..." or laugh your ass off. I bet on laughter.
I do not think the internet cares enough about you to laugh.
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NakedZerglingA more apocalyptic post apocalypse Portland OregonRegistered Userregular
Calm down man, I do not care if he killed himself either. However lashing out is off topic, do try and stay on topic. Its not societies job to "fix people". However if a national tv show declares you a pedophile, and sends the swat team to your house thats kinda fucked up, wouldn't you agree?
Honestly...i don't know.
I've watched every episode of TCAP. Every single one. I won't deny that i have found it entertaining. There are things that amazed me. Some of the chat logs people have thinking they are talking to a 12-15 year old blew my mind.
There were times i began to feel pity for some of them. It's humiliating, and embarrassing, and it would suck beyond belief to be in that situation, but have you all seen the show?
I find it hard to believe these guys are innocent when they
-strip naked
-bring booze and condoms
-drive hours and hundreds of miles
-ADMIT to it
-get caught multiple times!!!!!!!
- plead that they need help
That last one blows me away. Its to easy to admit you need help after you're caught. I would have compassion for someone who realized they had these impulses and sought out help for it. I have a hard time feeling compassion for them after they are caught, and that seems to be why everyone seems to be against me in here....my lack of compassion for my "fellow man".
I shouldn't have to apologize for how i feel. It's my opinion.
But to stay on topic...i would really like to see for myself the chat this guy had...unedited. I think i would need to see that in order to really make up my mind. Actually i already agreed that it was most likely excessive to send the squad or whatever. But i don't think i would put the blame of this guys death on the officers, nbc, or chris hansen.
I don't get why what i just said above canb't just be seen as my opinion, and not be torn apart to show why i'm some "fucking idiot" who is "wrong".
You guys spout such venom at me because i disagree with you. If you found out i offed myself because i couldn't live in a world with such narrow minded thinkers would you say "it's so sad..." or laugh your ass off. I bet on laughter.
...seriously?
Dude, you are fucked in the head.
Seriously, before I read that far I was about to post something to the effect of "I feel bad when I hear about suicides because it's a horrible thing"
The idea of laughing at a human being who is suffering enough to take their own life is really foreign to me.
Again. Because i don't have the same beliefs you do i'm a shitty person?
because some guy i have NEVER met killed himself, I'M a bad person? Well thats a load of fucking shit. So we should have big old hearts for everyone (except naturally people who disagree with us on the internet) and be sad for every person who dies?
They feel your lack of empathy makes you a shitty person.
NO IT MAKES ME MAYBE A COLD PERSON. THEIR OPINION IS THAT IT MAKES ME SHITTY.
I understand the situation sucks, And i feel for his family and those affected by his death. The pressure of dealing with the loss and having the whole ordeal drudged through the media and court of public opinion is something people shouldn't have to deal with. and if he hadn't killed himself they wouldn't have to. I think killing yourself is an amazing act of selfishness. (im excluding extreme cases where their sacrifice saves another, or someone is terminally ill and has no quality of life)
Personally I feel its your life, if you want to check out feel free. Oddly enough my best friend thinks grieving is an amazing act of selfishness. It really comes down to perspective.
I BASICALLY FEEL THE SAME WAY. I STILL THINK ITS A SELFISH ACT THOUGH. SO IF SOMEONE DECIDES TO END IT I HAVE A HARD TIME WASTING MY EMOTIONS ON SOMEONE WHO DIDN'T THINK OF OTHER PEOPLES EMOTIONS.....I'M NOT TRYING TO BE A DICK IT"S JUST THE WAY I'M WIRED.....IF THAT MAKES ME "WRONG" THEN SHOULDN'T YOU GUYS FEEL FOR ME AND REACH OUT TO ME AND SHOW ME HOW GOOD EVERYTHING IS AND NOT BASH ME ALL OVER HERE.......I MEAN THATS BASICALLY WHAT YOU'RE SAYING WE SHOULD DO AS A SOCIETY TO PEOPLE WITH MENTAL PROBLEMS......SO WHERE'S YOUR COMPASSION?
Obviously this guy wasn't right in the head. And this pushed him over. What if it wasn't the cops..what about the people who kill themselves after a break up? Should the person who dumped the feel responsible? Should they be charged or sued, or be blasted like you guys blast the cops?
The problem lies in the fact that this show actively set out to ruin this mans life for ratings. Their job is to locate people, convince them to say things to minors, and then laugh when they get caught. Well oops, appears their little vigilante crusade caused someone to die, and they were found at fault for that. Their was sufficient evidence that this show fucked up that they did not want it to go to trial.
AGAIN I DON'T THINK THEY CAUSED THE DEATH...JUST MY OPINION.
You guys spout such venom at me because i disagree with you. If you found out i offed myself because i couldn't live in a world with such narrow minded thinkers would you say "it's so sad..." or laugh your ass off. I bet on laughter.
I do not think the internet cares enough about you to laugh.
YET I'M SHITTY FOR NOT CARING ABOUT SOME GUY WHO KILLED HIMSELF...HOW IS THAT NOT HYPOCRISY?
But to stay on topic...i would really like to see for myself the chat this guy had...unedited. I think i would need to see that in order to really make up my mind. Actually i already agreed that it was most likely excessive to send the squad or whatever. But i don't think i would put the blame of this guys death on the officers, nbc, or chris hansen.
I don't get why what i just said above canb't just be seen as my opinion, and not be torn apart to show why i'm some "fucking idiot" who is "wrong".
The thing to remember is that the show is entertainment. They do not present both sides of the issue, it is edited for TV. They also do not show complete chat logs, they only show what they want you to see. The entertaining bits, the condemning bits. Yeah their is some actual perverts they are going to catch, but you never know if they guy that brought booze was told to bring booze. Or the guy who stripped naked was told to get naked. You have one side of a story, presented by people who are in the business of making an entertaining one sided story.
Look at it this way, when all the evidence was presented TCAP knew they would lose the court case. If they were going to win they would not have settled. They admitted they did something wrong. We do not have all the facts in this case.
Those chat logs may show anything from a serial predator seducing young girls, to a deeply troubled man reaching out and being led by the only person he might have trusted into committing one of the most socially damning crimes we have.
We just do not know.
There is no right, or wrong when it comes to opinions. It is best to remember that some people are going to disagree with you, they are going to insult you, or attempt to drag you into personal attacks. Pay no attention, and stick to staying on topic is your best bet.
Detharin on
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NakedZerglingA more apocalyptic post apocalypse Portland OregonRegistered Userregular
edited June 2008
QUID- yeah if someone touched my kid i would prob kill them. I admit that. I also admit i have issues with rage. I'm not saying anyone else should kill people vigilante style. I spoke for me and me alone.
JEEPGUY- well honestly...and sit down cause i'm not gonna use fighting words....that is a very admirable quality that sadly most people don't have today.
Posts
One involves a minor abusing a mentally ill (or horny) person's state of mind (enticing them to come have sex). The other does not involve this.
The two are not the same.
Might be helpful.
Dude i wish i knew why it was MY fault. But i seem to be the ONLY person here not defending child rapists!
And bionic...i Guess my rage would be higher because I think the laws (at least in my area) are very lax on this. We have a lot of people re-offending. So in my mind if someone who was let out (keeping in mind i think they should stay locked up) for the 3rd or 4th time molests a kid. It makes me feel like the system has failed. My rage would probably be at the pathetic system that lets these people reoffend, but would be taken out on the offender. I'm NOT saying violence ir right...as a matter of fact i have struggled my whole life with having an EXPLOSIVE temper. I have sought help for it, and theres times it's almost gotten me in trouble. It's something i have to wrestle with internally daily.
If i snap one day and kill someone should i be shown sympathy because i've had doctors literally say i have issues with rage, that i've had to have treated? Do i get a free pass and get to go free, or spend time in a mental facility? ..i could prob argue that but i wouldn't. I would do whatever time i was given because i would recognize the fact that i fucked up and lost control. If i was lucky enough to get out i would expect that i would be monitored for the rest of my life and have many of my right stripped away.
When i start to lose my shit i force myself to think of these things to keep myself in check, even when every fiber wants to fight.
You're not going to find a single person here that says these people shouldn't be punished for their actions. But this isn't the same as robbing a house, where if you do it over and over, it's clear you just don't care about your actions. Like we keep saying, these people have a compulsion that they have difficulty controlling. While being punished, and after as well, they need help to control these compulsions to make sure they don't reoffend again. It's never going to be 100% effective, but the price we pay for living in a free society is that everything won't always be perfect, and sometimes these people will slip through the cracks, leaving us to clean up the mess.
Even if you can conclusively say "Pedophilia is a mental illness", that doesn't make pedophiles blameless when they act out their disorder.
I have Anti-Social Personality Disorder. I have poor impulse control, and there are things I think and want to do on a regular basis which are simply unacceptable and outright illegal.
As a cognitive, conscious adult male I have the mental capacity to recognize these things as unacceptable, even if my brain can't process an associated feeling of guilt with them.
If I went around doing these things, I don't think I get to say "I'm a sociopath, it's a legitimate mental condition! No touchbacks!"
No. I have to take responsibility for my actions like an adult. It's not my fault, per se, that I feel this way but it's certainly my fault if I act out those impulses.
This is why I have mixed feelings towards "lolicon" and other kinds of fake child pornography. On one hand, clearly anyone who enjoys that stuff has pedophiliac urges, and it's arguable that this stuff is enabling their problem, reinforcing these thoughts until inevitably, they're going to cross over to real children or at least real child porn.
However, it also equally arguable that this sort of material could have a potentially theraputic aspect, satiating these mentally ill people's need for this sort of thing while not allowing real children to come to harm.
And I can see the validity in that, because I know after a particularely frustrating day, turning on Grand Theft Auto and blowing away some virtual Russian mobsters makes me feel worlds better and helps manage my violent impulses. If it's okay for me to commit one kind of virtual crime in order to appease a socially unacceptable urge, who am I to judge them?
Nonetheless, I think it's universally fair to say that as soon as these people make the choice to act out on their impulses, they are making a cognitive choice they can be held accountable for.
But ( and we shouldn't bother touching too much into this i know) There are people that would insist CG child porn WILL lead to the actual thing. Same with GTA leading to actual crimes, and weed leading to harder drugs. These are all debates that may fall under the agree to disagree category. My personal thought is that if you're an adult you should be able to look at any porn you want (excluding one that break laws), listen to any music, and play any games. But other feel different...again i feel it's people wanting to just pass the buck.
and out of curiosity has anyone else seen the movie "The Woodsman". It deals with a pedophile after he's been released.
If you're on a constant diet of material that dehumanizes and depersonalizes others it is going to have a mental effect on you and it may become inevitable that a person who has a pre-existing mental illness is going to act out the things they've up until now been fantasized about.
In that case, it's a matter of exposure. If you are constantly fapping to loli porn, if it's everything you watch, you have posters of child actors around your walls, etc. eventually all that stuff is just going to pile on.
So it's a matter of moderation. Material like this, or violent material for people with violent urges, might help satiate the urge for a time, but it's something they have to do in moderation.
Even though I manage my own condition pretty well, if I sat there watching Hostel on loop all day and sharpening knives all day broken up with sessions of kill rampages in GTA I am pretty sure that would have a negative effect on my mental state.
Apparently either you don't, or you don't actually know what you're arguing about. The whole matter at hand is that a presumed pedophile did not go to the Chris Hansen trap as planned, and stayed home. The cops came for him anyway and he shot himself.
I naturally ask for id for anyone buying m games. kids will come in with their parents, and i will let the parents know about the content. and TONS of parents (most actually) have given up saying stuff along the lines of -he plays it anyway...it keeps him out of my hair....his father will just buy it for him....he plays it at his fathers house....killing is fine as long as there's no nudity.
The morals in this country are amazing.
Even seeing that effect i think adults should still be able to play that if they choose to.
1) the guy chose to shoot himself, so i don't feel bad. I have never felt bad for people who kill themselves.
2) someone made the point that they should have just sent 2 officers to scoop him up, and not a fucking swat team or whatever...i believe this is a valid point.
3) The guy did break the law. I don't get why people are seeming to feel bad for him. Maybe there are things we don't know about the case? maybe the guy mentioned in his convo about prior acts or having a weapon or something. More than likely the cops just wanted to look like hotshots for the camera.
any way you slice HE broke the law, not NBC, or Chris Hansen or the cops. HE killed himself. Not Chris Hansen or the cops, or NBC. If he hadn't talked to a minor about sex he would be alive, so i don't get the issue.
The guy was mentally ill. He needed to be institutionalized, not SWAT teamed.
But if he didn't seek help...or people close to him seek it for him what was the outcome?
OR is the argument that these guys doing this are somehow reaching out for help?
Would you guys be ok with these stings if there were stipulations? such as if the people who are caught are required to meet with a state psychologist as a minimum to determine their mental state then proceded from there? Those who agree to that maybe aren't arrested publicly? (or at all if there's no evidence on their computers of other offenses?)
I would be open to trying something like that, but then theres a whole new can of worms. Who would pay for the Shrinks and the meds? How long are the "treated". What happens if they continue their behavior?
As i think about it this type of system could probably be more ideal...but then we wouldn't have the show.
That's swell. So we've established that you're basically a pretty shitty person. You have no ability to feel sympathy for anyone who you feel has done wrong.
It sounds like you don't feel very much aside from rage and hatred at people you don't know. I could be wrong, this is only how you come across on the internet after all.
So would a jury, and that's why they settled with the family. They were wrong, and they would have lost.
HE DID NOT DO ANYTHING THAT WAS DESERVING OF DEATH. ASSHOLE.
Mitigating circumstances? Perhaps, but then why settle?
HE BROKE THE LAW. HE DESERVED TO DIE.
WOE BETIDE SPEEDERS AND ILLEGAL PARKERS IN THE TYRANNY OF NAKEDZERGLING.
He never talked to a minor about sex. There's not even any proof that he believed he was talking to a real minor, and not an adult pretending to be a child (such roleplaying fantasies are not unheard of on the internet). Without actually showing up to the house where a supposed minor was waiting for hot pedo sex, he was not guilty of anything but thoughtcrime, but yes, we know you think thoughtcrime should carry the death penalty, we don't need to hear it again.
You're an amazing hypocrite man. I say i don't care about someone who killed himself, and you accuse me of being a shitty person. You haven't even considered trying to see it my way let alone respect anyone who has a different opinion than yourself.
So fuck you. You don't know shit about me aside from what you know about 1 internet topic. But judge away there hotshot.
Come on. Lets see the snappy come back you have instead of the acknowledgment that as much as i am "judging" some guy i don't know, your doing the exact same thing to me BECAUSE I DISAGREE WITH YOU. well the world would be a pretty great place if we all thought exactly the way you do because clearly YOU are ALWAYS correct in your morales and opinions eh?
Fuck you.
edit.
Aside from pointing out how wrong EVERYONE is from the people here to the cops, how correct you think you are, and waxing poetic about a system that is flawed you've brought NOTHING to the table. There is no debate and discourse with you. You think you're right. Period.
at least admit it so you can have some respect and not just be a fucking joke.
Also that's not the definition of a hypocrite.
My god, you raise an interesting point that I had not considered. Do you think their are people out there who do not realize that every 12-25 year old girl on the internet is really a 14-70 year old male? I mean where the case to go to court could the defendant argue that he thought the underage girl in question was really a man pretending to be a girl?
Its illegal to proposition minors, but if he thought it was all a fantasy between him and another consenting adult how does that work out?
This, of course, would require a governmental and punishment system that actually fucking WORK, as opposed to the lurching zombie beast we have now.
Calm down man, I do not care if he killed himself either. However lashing out is off topic, do try and stay on topic. Its not societies job to "fix people". However if a national tv show declares you a pedophile, and sends the swat team to your house thats kinda fucked up, wouldn't you agree?
I'm not trying to turn this into a depression thread, but I think I found the problem.
What about a child abused by a pedophile? I sense an internal paradox coming on.
OK so in order to remove people i dont like from society.
Step 0. Borrow a 13 year old girl.
Step 1. Convince her to message my enemies and have them engage in sexual conversation.
Step 2. Alert Local Authorities.
Step 4. Profit.
Again. Because i don't have the same beliefs you do i'm a shitty person?
because some guy i have NEVER met killed himself, I'M a bad person? Well thats a load of fucking shit. So we should have big old hearts for everyone (except naturally people who disagree with us on the internet) and be sad for every person who dies?
I understand the situation sucks, And i feel for his family and those affected by his death. The pressure of dealing with the loss and having the whole ordeal drudged through the media and court of public opinion is something people shouldn't have to deal with. and if he hadn't killed himself they wouldn't have to. I think killing yourself is an amazing act of selfishness. (im excluding extreme cases where their sacrifice saves another, or someone is terminally ill and has no quality of life)
I feel for those people, but i don't feel for him. He chose to kill himself. Maybe there were outside pressures, but bottom line is EVERYONE has outside pressures EVERYDAY. People have bills demons, sickness, sadness, and in this case cops busting down your door.
Obviously this guy wasn't right in the head. And this pushed him over. What if it wasn't the cops..what about the people who kill themselves after a break up? Should the person who dumped the feel responsible? Should they be charged or sued, or be blasted like you guys blast the cops?
You guys spout such venom at me because i disagree with you. If you found out i offed myself because i couldn't live in a world with such narrow minded thinkers would you say "it's so sad..." or laugh your ass off. I bet on laughter.
...seriously?
Dude, you are fucked in the head.
A lover who dumps another is not analogous to someone hearing about a suicide and feeling bad about the person and their family. Quit being dumb.
They feel your lack of empathy makes you a shitty person.
Personally I feel its your life, if you want to check out feel free. Oddly enough my best friend thinks grieving is an amazing act of selfishness. It really comes down to perspective.
The problem lies in the fact that this show actively set out to ruin this mans life for ratings. Their job is to locate people, convince them to say things to minors, and then laugh when they get caught. Well oops, appears their little vigilante crusade caused someone to die, and they were found at fault for that. Their was sufficient evidence that this show fucked up that they did not want it to go to trial.
I do not think the internet cares enough about you to laugh.
Honestly...i don't know.
I've watched every episode of TCAP. Every single one. I won't deny that i have found it entertaining. There are things that amazed me. Some of the chat logs people have thinking they are talking to a 12-15 year old blew my mind.
There were times i began to feel pity for some of them. It's humiliating, and embarrassing, and it would suck beyond belief to be in that situation, but have you all seen the show?
I find it hard to believe these guys are innocent when they
-strip naked
-bring booze and condoms
-drive hours and hundreds of miles
-ADMIT to it
-get caught multiple times!!!!!!!
- plead that they need help
That last one blows me away. Its to easy to admit you need help after you're caught. I would have compassion for someone who realized they had these impulses and sought out help for it. I have a hard time feeling compassion for them after they are caught, and that seems to be why everyone seems to be against me in here....my lack of compassion for my "fellow man".
I shouldn't have to apologize for how i feel. It's my opinion.
But to stay on topic...i would really like to see for myself the chat this guy had...unedited. I think i would need to see that in order to really make up my mind. Actually i already agreed that it was most likely excessive to send the squad or whatever. But i don't think i would put the blame of this guys death on the officers, nbc, or chris hansen.
I don't get why what i just said above canb't just be seen as my opinion, and not be torn apart to show why i'm some "fucking idiot" who is "wrong".
"Yes you can get free mental health care, but you cannot go near the facility where the help is because it's within x feet of children."
Seriously, before I read that far I was about to post something to the effect of "I feel bad when I hear about suicides because it's a horrible thing"
The idea of laughing at a human being who is suffering enough to take their own life is really foreign to me.
YET I'M SHITTY FOR NOT CARING ABOUT SOME GUY WHO KILLED HIMSELF...HOW IS THAT NOT HYPOCRISY?
The thing to remember is that the show is entertainment. They do not present both sides of the issue, it is edited for TV. They also do not show complete chat logs, they only show what they want you to see. The entertaining bits, the condemning bits. Yeah their is some actual perverts they are going to catch, but you never know if they guy that brought booze was told to bring booze. Or the guy who stripped naked was told to get naked. You have one side of a story, presented by people who are in the business of making an entertaining one sided story.
Look at it this way, when all the evidence was presented TCAP knew they would lose the court case. If they were going to win they would not have settled. They admitted they did something wrong. We do not have all the facts in this case.
Those chat logs may show anything from a serial predator seducing young girls, to a deeply troubled man reaching out and being led by the only person he might have trusted into committing one of the most socially damning crimes we have.
We just do not know.
There is no right, or wrong when it comes to opinions. It is best to remember that some people are going to disagree with you, they are going to insult you, or attempt to drag you into personal attacks. Pay no attention, and stick to staying on topic is your best bet.
JEEPGUY- well honestly...and sit down cause i'm not gonna use fighting words....that is a very admirable quality that sadly most people don't have today.
you should probably talk to someone you trust about this. Very few people would see that as hypocrisy.