Again. Because i don't have the same beliefs you do i'm a shitty person?
It comes up a lot in D&D, but it's worth saying again - "beliefs" are not some special protected thing. Not all beliefs are good. Some are downright evil. Some of yours seem to make you a shitty person.
Also, watching every single episode of TCAP since its inception probably isn't healthy.
NO IT MAKES ME MAYBE A COLD PERSON. THEIR OPINION IS THAT IT MAKES ME SHITTY.
Maintain inner calm, relax. It is the internet. People are always going to make snap value judgments about you. It is best to stick to the topic at hand and not let anger force you into posting things. For instance they argue that your opinions may make it difficult for pedophiles to get the help they need. Explore that, how does a deeply troubled man get help, when the only place to get help he cannot go?
I BASICALLY FEEL THE SAME WAY. I STILL THINK ITS A SELFISH ACT THOUGH. SO IF SOMEONE DECIDES TO END IT I HAVE A HARD TIME WASTING MY EMOTIONS ON SOMEONE WHO DIDN'T THINK OF OTHER PEOPLES EMOTIONS.....I'M NOT TRYING TO BE A DICK IT"S JUST THE WAY I'M WIRED.....IF THAT MAKES ME "WRONG" THEN SHOULDN'T YOU GUYS FEEL FOR ME AND REACH OUT TO ME AND SHOW ME HOW GOOD EVERYTHING IS AND NOT BASH ME ALL OVER HERE.......I MEAN THATS BASICALLY WHAT YOU'RE SAYING WE SHOULD DO AS A SOCIETY TO PEOPLE WITH MENTAL PROBLEMS......SO WHERE'S YOUR COMPASSION?
I know, amusing is it not. Perhaps they might have more sympathy if you touched children. Seriously though, relax. Just accept that everyone has mental problems, you may have problems feeling empathy, they may have problems judging those who lack empathy. Try and find a common ground where you can discuss things rational. Also your caps lock appears to be on, no biggie. It happens.
AGAIN I DON'T THINK THEY CAUSED THE DEATH...JUST MY OPINION.
Possibly, however the people will all the information felt their was a damn good chance they would be found liable for causing the death and settled out of court. Think on that for a moment. They knew they fucked up, and tossed money at the family to avoid going to court and having to publicly reveal just how badly they fucked up.
you should probably talk to someone you trust about this. Very few people would see that as hypocrisy.
Personally I see it as hypocrisy. The dead have better things to do that worry about who cares about who. I'd save my empathy for the living.
Deeply troubled man kills self. Condemn that which drove him to the edge.
Deeply troubled man posts on the internet. Condemn him thereby becoming what drove him to the edge.
Some people just do not feel empathy, or emotions the same way as others. Doesn't mean they are wrong, or should be attacked. Besides if he goes and offs himself do we really want to see the D&D forums being sued for driving him over the edge? Its best to stick to the topic of trashy TV.
you should probably talk to someone you trust about this. Very few people would see that as hypocrisy.
Personally I see it as hypocrisy. The dead have better things to do that worry about who cares about who. I'd save my empathy for the living.
Deeply troubled man kills self. Condemn that which drove him to the edge.
Deeply troubled man posts on the internet. Condemn him thereby becoming what drove him to the edge.
Some people just do not feel empathy, or emotions the same way as others. Doesn't mean they are wrong, or should be attacked. Besides if he goes and offs himself do we really want to see the D&D forums being sued for driving him over the edge? Its best to stick to the topic of trashy TV.
Uhhh... he doesn't seem able to differentiate between empathy and schadenfreude. He isn't important enough to anyone here, where we would be happy to see him die. No one has a grudge against him. That is not the same as not feeling bad when someone dies.
You are right. Some people don't feel empathy the same way other people do. Some people feel attracted to children. You have previously stated that you don't feel society shouldn't try to fix people, IIRC. I don't agree.
Uhhh... he doesn't seem able to differentiate between empathy and schadenfreude. He isn't important enough to anyone here, where we would be happy to see him die. No one has a grudge against him. That is not the same as not feeling bad when someone dies.
All very true. However remember your advocating showing empathy to one man who offed himself due to mental conditions, while attacking another with mental conditions. I mean you've already got him turning his caps lock on and everything. If that isn't a cry for help i don't know what is.
EDIT: The problem with society fixing people is it has to determine first what is wrong with people. People run such a gambit of mental problems that it is likely impossible to find a truly healthy mind. Some of the most broken people I know are also the most functional.
The best we can hope for is to isolate certain bad behaviors, and attempt to convince the person to stop them either through negative reinforcement, drugs, or lots of therapy. However, their is nothing wrong with these people other than their urges do not fit with the morals of society at large. Some societies may say their behavior is ok, while others are firmly against it.
Its all a value judgment based on majority rules at the end, and its kind hard to "fix" someone who is outside of that.
you should probably talk to someone you trust about this. Very few people would see that as hypocrisy.
Personally I see it as hypocrisy. The dead have better things to do that worry about who cares about who. I'd save my empathy for the living.
Deeply troubled man kills self. Condemn that which drove him to the edge.
Deeply troubled man posts on the internet. Condemn him thereby becoming what drove him to the edge.
Some people just do not feel empathy, or emotions the same way as others. Doesn't mean they are wrong, or should be attacked. Besides if he goes and offs himself do we really want to see the D&D forums being sued for driving him over the edge? Its best to stick to the topic of trashy TV.
It's not hypocrisy to condemn zergling for being a dick unless I honestly believe that my condemnation is going to somehow hurt him, and I don't. Sometimes people telling us that we're fucked up is how we realize that we're fucking up.
It's not hypocrisy to condemn zergling for being a dick unless I honestly believe that my condemnation is going to somehow hurt him, and I don't. Sometimes people telling us that we're fucked up is how we realize that we're fucking up.
You made him turn his caps lock on. You obviously hurt him. You may not have realized that you could at the time, but unfortunately you did. Consider it your "people telling us we're fucked up" and show a bit more empathy in the future. Or send the swat team to his house, either way.
QUID- yeah if someone touched my kid i would prob kill them. I admit that. I also admit i have issues with rage. I'm not saying anyone else should kill people vigilante style. I spoke for me and me alone.
QUID- yeah if someone touched my kid i would prob kill them. I admit that. I also admit i have issues with rage. I'm not saying anyone else should kill people vigilante style. I spoke for me and me alone.
Well sadly that still makes you a bad person.
No no Quid, it's cool. Vigilante justice is OK for Zergling and wrong for everyone else. It totally makes sense.
I'm sure it's the fifth time it's been brought up, but what exactly are we arguing about again?
I think everyone agreed that it was stupid for the police to send a swat team to go pick up someone accused of sex solicitation to a minor. I'm pretty sure a swat team is not standard protocol for having a steamy chat with someone who may or may not be a minor. Or maybe we didn't agree on that. Did we?
So what exactly is the new topic here? I've seen this argument fracture about ten times since the start. Are we talking about whether or not it's ethical to beat the snot out of child molesters (accused or otherwise) or are we arguing about whether or not it's O.K. for Chris Hansen to publicize people accused of soliciting sex to a minor?
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
edited June 2008
Is there too much nuance in the position that they act of suicide itself is completely self-centered and a loss of perspective, and sympathizing with those who commit suicide, because often their self centered (not necessarily in a "the world is all about me" kind of way as much as "There is no way I can deal with this") loss of perspective is brought on by something outside of their control?
Also, I wish there was a stronger support network for pedophiles, instead of this "kill em all, let God sort em out" shit.
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NakedZerglingA more apocalyptic post apocalypse Portland OregonRegistered Userregular
edited June 2008
So then the fact that i truly don't feel empathy...does that mean i'm somehow flawed?
Like in all seriousness...i understand how you guys feel saying it's sad..but i'm not trying to be shocking when i say i just don't feel it. i just don't. I truely feel so out of touch with fellow man. I usually feel disgust and contempt for people in general...including myself.
I have discussed this with a therapist and a priest (even thought i'm not catholic) but nothing seems to connect. I totally respect a priest that can forgive and love even someone who sins against him, but bottom line is i can't...more like i don't know how. I would LOVE to be able to be like that. TO be able to forgive and turn the other cheek. Seriously i really really wish i could feel your point of view rather than just understand it.
But i don't. and i don't know how to change that.
maybe thats coming through when i post this stuff, but i realize thats my issue.
i also don't have an inner monologue and for years thought people were making that shit up to mess with me. Like when people say "when you read something do you basically hear a voice in your head saying the words"....nope. I can't even conceive that concept. My friend is always blown away by that concept. I also have a hard time censoring myself....i just don't get it. Like saying stuff that might offend someone..if i'm not trying to offend someone then i don't realize what i say might be offensive.
Thats shit i have been trying to change for years and i don't know how.
Oh i also have a hero complex and don't value my own life. My therapist found that fascinating and did some thesis for her masters on me. I saw a guy hitting his g/f and stepped in and had a gun pulled on me. I looked him in the eyes and called him a pussy for hitting a woman and needing a gun. I told him i called the cops (which i had) and he took off on his motorcycle.
i didn't want to die, but i figured if it happened it happened...i wasn't gonna let this asshole beat on his girl. I mean like 5 people walked past and hurried away with the "not my problem" attitude and it sickened me.
sorry i got waaaay off on a tangent there..but maybe it gives you insight as to how i think and value life?
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NakedZerglingA more apocalyptic post apocalypse Portland OregonRegistered Userregular
People here get me riled up enough to turn caps lock on frequently, it's something I typically get over in like, 10 minutes. He'll be fine.
I in all honestly will dwell on this for days. Seeing if i'm wrong, if i could handle it better. Get mad at myself for not expressing myself the way i want.
And no i'm not kidding.
People here get me riled up enough to turn caps lock on frequently, it's something I typically get over in like, 10 minutes. He'll be fine.
I in all honestly will dwell on this for days. Seeing if i'm wrong, if i could handle it better. Get mad at myself for not expressing myself the way i want.
And no i'm not kidding.
You don't have to feel empathy. But that doesn't excuse a lusting desire to enact vengeance on people.
Correct...but i acknowledge i have this desire. I know i have it. I WISH i didn't. It's a fucking weight to feel like this man. And i'm on medication for it, i've talked to multiple therapists for it, and even a priest out of desperation to NOT feel like this.
The only pride i take is that i can recognize i have this but i feel i will never act on it. and if i do i will turn myself in because i fucked up.
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NakedZerglingA more apocalyptic post apocalypse Portland OregonRegistered Userregular
People here get me riled up enough to turn caps lock on frequently, it's something I typically get over in like, 10 minutes. He'll be fine.
I in all honestly will dwell on this for days. Seeing if i'm wrong, if i could handle it better. Get mad at myself for not expressing myself the way i want.
And no i'm not kidding.
Are you an aspie or something?
I don't know what that is or if you were trying to call me an asswipe or an asspie and misspelled?
You don't have to feel empathy. But that doesn't excuse a lusting desire to enact vengeance on people.
Correct...but i acknowledge i have this desire. I know i have it. I WISH i didn't. It's a fucking weight to feel like this man. And i'm on medication for it, i've talked to multiple therapists for it, and even a priest out of desperation to NOT feel like this.
The only pride i take is that i can recognize i have this but i feel i will never act on it. and if i do i will turn myself in because i fucked up.
So if a television show trolled you into marching off to murder a pedophile, and instead there was a SWAT team there who arrested you and charged you with, oh, I don't know: attempted murder and conspiracy to commit murder, would you say this was "justice" "really awesome justice" "super extra justicetasticosity" or would you be like "Hello, where's my fucking due process and have you ever heard of entrapment, assholes?"
-edit-
And aspie is slang for someone with Asperger's Syndrome, a type of high-functioning autism that produces marvelously insane replicants who occasionally are able to masquerade as human beings. Fortunately the Voight-Kamph test quickly separates them out from the humans.
You don't have to feel empathy. But that doesn't excuse a lusting desire to enact vengeance on people.
Correct...but i acknowledge i have this desire. I know i have it. I WISH i didn't. It's a fucking weight to feel like this man. And i'm on medication for it, i've talked to multiple therapists for it, and even a priest out of desperation to NOT feel like this.
The only pride i take is that i can recognize i have this but i feel i will never act on it. and if i do i will turn myself in because i fucked up.
Wanting to punish people for the wrongs they've committed is one thing. Saying "I'd fucking kill him no doubt" is another thing. And saying "I'd definitely fucking kill him" and then later "but I feel I will never act on it" is a third thing.
Drez is a fourth thing. A very confused fourth thing.
Nobody's saying you can't hate rapists and child abusers and even want to do them harm, but that's not what you were talking about earlier: you were expressing something akin to an entitlement to vengeance and you were actually condescending to people who were saying that, well, no, you don't have a right to murder rapists. What you were expressing earlier and what you are expressing now are two wholly different attitudes.
entitlement to vengeance and you were actually condescending to people who were saying that, well, no, you don't have a right to murder rapists.
Just wanted to comment on this. If a person feels that it is ok to kill someone who performs crime X, they are not necessarily in the wrong from a personal moral standpoint. You could argue they do not have the right to murder rapists and not expect to be prosecuted under the law.
A person may feel that based on situation X that they are perfectly in the right to, lets say, murdering rapists. They may also realize that while their actions are illegal, and they may be caught and punished, that does not necessarily make them amoral. Morality is a very personal thing that can vary from person to person, from situation to situation.
I may personal feel that under certain circumstances it would be amoral of me to spare the life of someone. You may feel that it is always the moral thing to spare someones life. Both are value judgments.
If a person feels morally justified in committing a crime, we can prosecute them under the law. However I have a difficult time declaring them amoral just because they do not conform to my own personal code of morals.
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NakedZerglingA more apocalyptic post apocalypse Portland OregonRegistered Userregular
edited June 2008
No no..I'm saying if someone were to rape my child lets say. Then yes i think i would kill him. I really really do. I'm not going to say..."kill the guy beating his wife next door" even though when i pound on his door every fiber of my being wants to tear him limb from limb. When i hear his fist connect with her face and her hit the floor and wimper it makes me want to beat his head against the wall till theres nothing but little chunks of skull in a chunky red soup.
But i don't instead i call the cops and confront him. But my own kid? i dunno if i could contain that. i really really don't.
plus i end up hating society when other people hear shit like this and say "oh don't get involved"
Did you see that news story in CT where 2 people racing hit an old man in the road and NO ONE came to his side??? WTF? you maggots see an old man run down in the street and go about your day?? what the fuck is wrong with people? Why do we even deserve the gift of life?
jeepguy- first thanks for insulting me again you never disappoint. i like that we're supposed to feel for the mental rejects that are child molesters but you say people with a disorder like Asperger's Syndrome aren't even human beings HOW THE FUCK IS THAT NOT HYPOCRISY?????
SECOND.....if someone want to kill their lets say wife. and hires a hitman to do it. But never actually kills her because the hit man is a undercover cop...is that entrapment. What if that were a show on tv? Police pretending to be a hitman engaging people on-line then busting them on camera when they show up with the payment? They didn't actually kill their wife...but the money they bring proves their intent. (as far as the courts are concerned) This shit happens on cops and other shows a lot...should we feel for those people? I'm seriously wondering what you think.
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NakedZerglingA more apocalyptic post apocalypse Portland OregonRegistered Userregular
entitlement to vengeance and you were actually condescending to people who were saying that, well, no, you don't have a right to murder rapists.
Just wanted to comment on this. If a person feels that it is ok to kill someone who performs crime X, they are not necessarily in the wrong from a personal moral standpoint. You could argue they do not have the right to murder rapists and not expect to be prosecuted under the law.
A person may feel that based on situation X that they are perfectly in the right to, lets say, murdering rapists. They may also realize that while their actions are illegal, and they may be caught and punished, that does not necessarily make them amoral. Morality is a very personal thing that can vary from person to person, from situation to situation.
I may personal feel that under certain circumstances it would be amoral of me to spare the life of someone. You may feel that it is always the moral thing to spare someones life. Both are value judgments.
If a person feels morally justified in committing a crime, we can prosecute them under the law. However I have a difficult time declaring them amoral just because they do not conform to my own personal code of morals.
And i could not have stated more times that if i killed the person that i would have to face the music.
You're making a better point than i am. I guess my morals are different than the majority here.
entitlement to vengeance and you were actually condescending to people who were saying that, well, no, you don't have a right to murder rapists.
Just wanted to comment on this. If a person feels that it is ok to kill someone who performs crime X, they are not necessarily in the wrong from a personal moral standpoint. You could argue they do not have the right to murder rapists and not expect to be prosecuted under the law.
A person may feel that based on situation X that they are perfectly in the right to, lets say, murdering rapists. They may also realize that while their actions are illegal, and they may be caught and punished, that does not necessarily make them amoral. Morality is a very personal thing that can vary from person to person, from situation to situation.
I may personal feel that under certain circumstances it would be amoral of me to spare the life of someone. You may feel that it is always the moral thing to spare someones life. Both are value judgments.
If a person feels morally justified in committing a crime, we can prosecute them under the law. However I have a difficult time declaring them amoral just because they do not conform to my own personal code of morals.
I'm not declaring him "amoral," I'm declaring him "immoral." What good is a personal code of ethics if you don't judge others by this code? I mean, it only makes sense to have a moral code that you think makes you a good person, right? And by extension, people who happen to follow the same code as you are good and people who don't aren't as good as you. Isn't the point of an (honest) personal moral code to be as good as you can? And isn't it natural to feel some superiority over people that don't? And isn't judging other people a natural Human trait?
It's all fine and good to advertise a non-judgmental personality but I'm not above judging other human beings by my own concept of morality. We all live on Earth and we all live in, for the most part, a pretty homogeneous Human society (at least the people foruming here do) so I think we're all operating in, more or less, the same general frameworks. So I don't have any qualms about throwing the book at someone based on my own perception.
jeepguy- first thanks for insulting me again you never disappoint. i like that we're supposed to feel for the mental rejects that are child molesters but you say people with a disorder like Asperger's Syndrome aren't even human beings HOW THE FUCK IS THAT NOT HYPOCRISY?????
People with Asperger's have entire fucking societies and support groups dedicated to raising awareness and money for their emotionally-stunted little selves. They have veritable armies of attack lawyers at their beck and call to destroy anyone who makes the slightest mistake in the handling of the preshus lil autists.
So they don't really need my sympathy very much. Whereas pedophiles are the most shat upon fucks on the face of the Earth. Their mental illness is no less a clinical reality than those with autism spectrum disorders.
Also, the replicant/non-human stuff was a joke. If you knew anything about autism and had read your Phillip K. Dick or watched Blade Runner, it would have been a really obvious joke, too. :P
I'm not declaring him "amoral," I'm declaring him "immoral." What good is a personal code of ethics if you don't judge others by this code? I mean, it only makes sense to have a moral code that you think makes you a good person, right? And by extension, people who happen to follow the same code as you are good and people who don't aren't as good as you. Isn't the point of an (honest) personal moral code to be as good as you can? And isn't it natural to feel some superiority over people that don't? And isn't judging other people a natural Human trait?
It's all fine and good to advertise a non-judgmental personality but I'm not above judging other human beings by my own concept of morality. We all live on Earth and we all live in, for the most part, a pretty homogeneous Human society (at least the people foruming here do) so I think we're all operating in, more or less, the same general frameworks. So I don't have any qualms about throwing the book at someone based on my own perception.
No actually a personal code of ethics has 0 to do with other people. It is about how you live your life, the choices you make, and has jack all to do with any other human being on the planet. Your code could be as simple as "Do no harm" to "Do as you like, provided you dont kill 4 year old asian girls. Without a good reason. Tuesday is a perfectly viable reason." It however is not an excuse to judge others.
If your feeling superior to others, thats obviously not a "good" thing. Especially if its based off the fact they are not living up to your own standards, that you control, and can arbitrarily change the rules for.
You sure this post is not a work of sarcasm?
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NakedZerglingA more apocalyptic post apocalypse Portland OregonRegistered Userregular
edited June 2008
Dude...you accuse my morals and what not, but you just sided with PEDOPHILES over HUMANS WITH A DISEASE they have no say or control over.
Yeah those lucky ones with Asperger's Syndrome! damn they have it good. You just spit in the face of every family member of someone suffering from this. I should feel sympathy for a molester but fuck the people with Aspergers?
WOW! and i'm a shitty person. Dude that makes you so much worse. And if you can't see why, pull you head out of your ass. Go tell a dad whos kid has Aspergers that his kid has it good and that he should be concerned about the child rapists.
You're the worst human being i know and i'm done with this.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
Dude...you accuse my morals and what not, but you just sided with PEDOPHILES over HUMANS WITH A DISEASE they have no say or control over.
Yeah those lucky ones with Asperger's Syndrome! damn they have it good. You just spit in the face of every family member of someone suffering from this. I should feel sympathy for a molester but fuck the people with Aspergers?
WOW! and i'm a shitty person. Dude that makes you so much worse. And if you can't see why, pull you head out of your ass. Go tell a dad whos kid has Aspergers that his kid has it good and that he should be concerned about the child rapists.
You're the worst human being i know and i'm done with this.
Pedophiles ARE humans with a disease. You're just an idiot.
And i could not have stated more times that if i killed the person that i would have to face the music.
You're making a better point than i am. I guess my morals are different than the majority here.
Why would you turn yourself in? According to your own beliefs you have done nothing "wrong." If you feel you had then obviously you would have a reason to do something to absolve yourself, or at least face justice.
However since you have done nothing "wrong" its not your job to do the cops job for them. It is their job to catch you, gather evidence, and convict you under our laws. If they fail to gather sufficient evidence, or taint it somehow, and you are found innocent then you have done nothing illegal.
You own personal morality determines what is right and wrong, if you feel your action should be illegal, then it follows you would feel it would be amoral. IE you would not feel its ok to murder rapists.
Dude...you accuse my morals and what not, but you just sided with PEDOPHILES over HUMANS WITH A DISEASE they have no say or control over.
Yeah those lucky ones with Asperger's Syndrome! damn they have it good. You just spit in the face of every family member of someone suffering from this. I should feel sympathy for a molester but fuck the people with Aspergers?
WOW! and i'm a shitty person. Dude that makes you so much worse. And if you can't see why, pull you head out of your ass. Go tell a dad whos kid has Aspergers that his kid has it good and that he should be concerned about the child rapists.
You're the worst human being i know and i'm done with this.
I'm not declaring him "amoral," I'm declaring him "immoral." What good is a personal code of ethics if you don't judge others by this code? I mean, it only makes sense to have a moral code that you think makes you a good person, right? And by extension, people who happen to follow the same code as you are good and people who don't aren't as good as you. Isn't the point of an (honest) personal moral code to be as good as you can? And isn't it natural to feel some superiority over people that don't? And isn't judging other people a natural Human trait?
It's all fine and good to advertise a non-judgmental personality but I'm not above judging other human beings by my own concept of morality. We all live on Earth and we all live in, for the most part, a pretty homogeneous Human society (at least the people foruming here do) so I think we're all operating in, more or less, the same general frameworks. So I don't have any qualms about throwing the book at someone based on my own perception.
No actually a personal code of ethics has 0 to do with other people. It is about how you live your life, the choices you make, and has jack all to do with any other human being on the planet. Your code could be as simple as "Do no harm" to "Do as you like, provided you dont kill 4 year old asian girls. Without a good reason. Tuesday is a perfectly viable reason." It however is not an excuse to judge others.
If your feeling superior to others, thats obviously not a "good" thing. Especially if its based off the fact they are not living up to your own standards, that you control, and can arbitrarily change the rules for.
You sure this post is not a work of sarcasm?
Are you talking about your own post? I hope you're being sarcastic or...something.
You follow "actually a personal code of ethics has 0 to do with other people" with examples of...how personal ethics has very much to do with other people. Like doing harm/not doing harm. Etc. Buh? That's just weird. Personal ethics have a great deal to do with other people.
But maybe you just failed to understand my point and you're talking about judgmentalism. No, a personal code of ethics is not constructed around judging people, but judging others is a natural extension of having a personal code of ethics, especially when you specifically realize you have a "personal code of ethics." Most people just live their lives as they want, while others try to conform to some code of ethics that they've decided upon and that they are significantly aware of. "Don't harm others," "abortion is wrong!" "give to beggars," "walk old people across the street," "don't fuck the neighbor's wife," "having sex with llamas is wrong," "tailgating is evil," etc. All of these things go into a personal moral code and you feel you are being a good person when you live up to these ideals. Are you really saying - if you held all the above as good ethos - that you could divorce yourself from your own ethics to the point where you feel that a sadistic, zygote-killing, beggar-bypassing, old person ignoring, neighbor's-wife-and-llama-fucking tailgater is not a morally weak person?
Spare me the bullshit. A personal moral code is your own little handbook of right and wrong/good and evil. And by following the choices you identify as "good," you think of yourself as a good person. When you follow choices you identify as "bad," you would normally think of yourself as a bad person. Now lets say you see someone else making these choices you've identified as good or bad. Are you saying that your personal concept of morality never factors into what you think of this other person, whether they are good or bad? Like I said at the start of this paragraph: spare me the bullshit.
I especially like how you suggest that a feeling of superiority is not a "good thing" in a post in which you are attempting to defend different moral perceptions. I personally am happy with my moral framework and my feeling of superiority over people that don't act the way I feel they should. I feel superior to people that don't signal when changing lanes, for instance. I think these people are complete douchebags. And that's just one example. Judging people? An internal feeling of moral superiority? I'm A-OK with it. And by your own argument, you really have no ground to tell me that my feelings of superiority are not "good."
Dude...you accuse my morals and what not, but you just sided with PEDOPHILES over HUMANS WITH A DISEASE they have no say or control over.
Yeah those lucky ones with Asperger's Syndrome! damn they have it good. You just spit in the face of every family member of someone suffering from this. I should feel sympathy for a molester but fuck the people with Aspergers?
WOW! and i'm a shitty person. Dude that makes you so much worse. And if you can't see why, pull you head out of your ass. Go tell a dad whos kid has Aspergers that his kid has it good and that he should be concerned about the child rapists.
You're the worst human being i know and i'm done with this.
Pedophiles can have Asperger's too, you know. They might even have Arachnophobia on top of all that. Maybe OCD too. You could have an obsessive-compulsive, spider-fearing, child-fucking lunatic with Asperger's on your hands. So what if a pedophile has all these things and you just have Asperger's. Does he deserve more sympathy than you in that case?*
*This assumes you aren't afraid of spiders or have OCD, but you don't strike me as the spider-fearing type.
You follow "actually a personal code of ethics has 0 to do with other people" with examples of...how personal ethics has very much to do with other people. Like doing harm/not doing harm. Etc. Buh? That's just weird. Personal ethics have a great deal to do with other people.
I disagree, I expect me to live up to my own personal code of ethics. I do not care if other people live up to it or not. Why should I? Their is a reason they are called "other" people.
But maybe you just failed to understand my point and you're talking about judgmentalism. No, a personal code of ethics is not constructed around judging people, but judging others is a natural extension of having a personal code of ethics, especially when you specifically realize you have a "personal code of ethics." Most people just live their lives as they want, while others try to conform to some code of ethics that they've decided upon and that they are significantly aware of. "Don't harm others," "abortion is wrong!" "give to beggars," "walk old people across the street," "don't fuck the neighbor's wife," "having sex with llamas is wrong," "tailgating is evil," etc. All of these things go into a personal moral code and you feel you are being a good person when you live up to these ideals. Are you really saying - if you held all the above as good ethos - that you could divorce yourself from your own ethics to the point where you feel that a sadistic, zygote-killing, beggar-bypassing, old person ignoring, neighbor's-wife-and-llama-fucking tailgater is not a morally weak person?
Should i consider you a morally weak person because you do not measure up to my code of ethics? You seem to expect others to live up to your standards. Should i expect the same of you? You fail to live up to my standards. See where this has gotten us? Having failed to live up to my standards, ethically your opinion becomes meaningless to me. Which now comes back to having declared you an amoral, expendable, meat puppet your code of ethics will likely demand some form of retort. All because you feel the need to decide whether im moral or not based on subjective, biased, criteria.
I do not judge people based on whether i find their actions moral, or amoral. I judge them based on whether their actions make sense or not.
Spare me the bullshit. A personal moral code is your own little handbook of right and wrong/good and evil. And by following the choices you identify as "good," you think of yourself as a good person. When you follow choices you identify as "bad," you would normally think of yourself as a bad person. Now lets say you see someone else making these choices you've identified as good or bad. Are you saying that your personal concept of morality never factors into what you think of this other person, whether they are good or bad? Like I said at the start of this paragraph: spare me the bullshit.
Whoever said i thought of myself as a good person? I havn't even managed to work out the criteria for a "good" person. Does a good person compulsively spend every waking moment in a soup kitchen? What if its due to a mental disorder, and their constant need to help others stems from a mental condition. What about the vigilante that kills people, but has a strict code. Is he a good person? Does killing make him wrong? What if hes saving more lives than he takes? Is being a good person defined as helping others? What about if its for the wrong reason? Minimizing harm caused to others? Heck I consider myself a person doing the best I can, im not worried about subjective good, or evil. I'm worried about helping/not hurting the people I care about.
Its all subjective. I prefer not to get into whether a person is "good" or "evil." The best description Ive been giving by a third party on how i judge people is that i judge based on how well people manage their mental illness. Everyone has their flaws, and I prefer to look at just how well a person functions despite what has been done to them.
I especially like how you suggest that a feeling of superiority is not a "good thing" in a post in which you are attempting to defend different moral perceptions. I personally am happy with my moral framework and my feeling of superiority over people that don't act the way I feel they should. I feel superior to people that don't signal when changing lanes, for instance. I think these people are complete douchebags. And that's just one example. Judging people? An internal feeling of moral superiority? I'm A-OK with it. And by your own argument, you really have no ground to tell me that my feelings of superiority are not "good."
In my moral frame work it is not a "good" thing. You have basically setup a way for you to feel superior to everyone you meet, quickly. You fail to take into account their own moral code, the lives they have lived, or extenuating circumstances. Its like sitting in the bathroom and shooting everyone who leaves without washing their hands. Even if all they did was come in and straighten a tie.
I have every ground, based on my own moral framework to tell you its not good. I subscribe to situational ethics. I.E. What is right, or wrong can change based on the surrounded situation. So you spouting off about how if people dont meet your own ethical code means, ethically, i can tell you that you should probably seek mental help. Which you should.
Pedophiles ARE humans with a disease. You're just an idiot.
This guy had a disease too.
what's your point?
Also on the subject of "disease" this is also kindof a bullshit argument. Because what is and isn't a disease and what it's named and how it's defined change every 5 minutes. Homosexuality used to be a disease. Now it's not. The guy in the above picture "used" to have psychopathy. Now psychopathy isn't an officially recognized disorder anymore and has been supplanted by ASPD. Which is allegedly synonymous with psychopathy except for they have two different sets of symptoms and two different criteria for diagnosis and some people who fit the criteria for one wont meet the other and visa versa.
You follow "actually a personal code of ethics has 0 to do with other people" with examples of...how personal ethics has very much to do with other people. Like doing harm/not doing harm. Etc. Buh? That's just weird. Personal ethics have a great deal to do with other people.
I disagree, I expect me to live up to my own personal code of ethics. I do not care if other people live up to it or not. Why should I? Their is a reason they are called "other" people.
Are you joking? This is the most antisocial thing I've read here in a long, long time.
First, I absolutely care about how other people act insofar as their actions affect me.
And second I absolutely care about how other people act insofar as their actions affect society.
I also kind of care about how their actions affect themselves but I'm a big proponent of personal freedom if that personal freedom doesn't conflict with anyone else's personal freedom or doesn't detract terribly from society's general health.
I can't even comprehend a person that simply doesn't care how other people act. I think you actually do care how other people act, you're just not communicating your point properly.
But maybe you just failed to understand my point and you're talking about judgmentalism. No, a personal code of ethics is not constructed around judging people, but judging others is a natural extension of having a personal code of ethics, especially when you specifically realize you have a "personal code of ethics." Most people just live their lives as they want, while others try to conform to some code of ethics that they've decided upon and that they are significantly aware of. "Don't harm others," "abortion is wrong!" "give to beggars," "walk old people across the street," "don't fuck the neighbor's wife," "having sex with llamas is wrong," "tailgating is evil," etc. All of these things go into a personal moral code and you feel you are being a good person when you live up to these ideals. Are you really saying - if you held all the above as good ethos - that you could divorce yourself from your own ethics to the point where you feel that a sadistic, zygote-killing, beggar-bypassing, old person ignoring, neighbor's-wife-and-llama-fucking tailgater is not a morally weak person?
Should i consider you a morally weak person because you do not measure up to my code of ethics? You seem to expect others to live up to your standards. Should i expect the same of you? You fail to live up to my standards. See where this has gotten us? Having failed to live up to my standards, ethically your opinion becomes meaningless to me. Which now comes back to having declared you an amoral, expendable, meat puppet your code of ethics will likely demand some form of retort. All because you feel the need to decide whether im moral or not based on subjective, biased, criteria.
Yes, I think - logically - you should. And yes I do expect people to live up to my standards. My moral standards communicate to me what it is to be a good person. I arrived at this from personal experiences and so I cut people some judgmental slack but overall I do think that my moral compass allows for enough framework diversity that I can safely judge people to some degree. I'm not going to condemn someone who had his thumbs blown off in 'Nam if they do not signal when turning or changing lanes, but I'll condemn every other person who does, with glee.
Spare me the bullshit. A personal moral code is your own little handbook of right and wrong/good and evil. And by following the choices you identify as "good," you think of yourself as a good person. When you follow choices you identify as "bad," you would normally think of yourself as a bad person. Now lets say you see someone else making these choices you've identified as good or bad. Are you saying that your personal concept of morality never factors into what you think of this other person, whether they are good or bad? Like I said at the start of this paragraph: spare me the bullshit.
Whoever said i thought of myself as a good person? I havn't even managed to work out the criteria for a "good" person. Does a good person compulsively spend every waking moment in a soup kitchen? What if its due to a mental disorder, and their constant need to help others stems from a mental condition. What about the vigilante that kills people, but has a strict code. Is he a good person? Does killing make him wrong? What if hes saving more lives than he takes? Is being a good person defined as helping others? What about if its for the wrong reason? Minimizing harm caused to others? Heck I consider myself a person doing the best I can, im not worried about subjective good, or evil. I'm worried about helping/not hurting the people I care about.
You don't have to come up with a rule for everything, but are you really going to tell me you don't have any judgments on what is a "good" or "bad" action? So if someone throws a baby into the path of an oncoming train, that isn't a "bad" person? A person that murders his wife and three children so he can take her insurance money and run off to Mexico with his mistress isn't a bad person? Again, spare me. You talk about nebulous shit like working in a soup kitchen while I'm pointing out that everyone makes judgment calls on other people unless you are a completely unempathetic, apathetic person. Let me be clear here. It's not possible to be empathic or even sympathetic without being judgmental. Judgmentalism works in the positive and the negative.
Its all subjective. I prefer not to get into whether a person is "good" or "evil." The best description Ive been giving by a third party on how i judge people is that i judge based on how well people manage their mental illness. Everyone has their flaws, and I prefer to look at just how well a person functions despite what has been done to them.
This doesn't have anything to do with the argument I am making.
I especially like how you suggest that a feeling of superiority is not a "good thing" in a post in which you are attempting to defend different moral perceptions. I personally am happy with my moral framework and my feeling of superiority over people that don't act the way I feel they should. I feel superior to people that don't signal when changing lanes, for instance. I think these people are complete douchebags. And that's just one example. Judging people? An internal feeling of moral superiority? I'm A-OK with it. And by your own argument, you really have no ground to tell me that my feelings of superiority are not "good."
In my moral frame work it is not a "good" thing. You have basically setup a way for you to feel superior to everyone you meet, quickly. You fail to take into account their own moral code, the lives they have lived, or extenuating circumstances. Its like sitting in the bathroom and shooting everyone who leaves without washing their hands. Even if all they did was come in and straighten a tie.
I have every ground, based on my own moral framework to tell you its not good. I subscribe to situational ethics. I.E. What is right, or wrong can change based on the surrounded situation. So you spouting off about how if people dont meet your own ethical code means, ethically, i can tell you that you should probably seek mental help. Which you should.
Annnd you've just proved you're crazy. You're telling me that I have no right to judge others based on my moral framework but you are judging me based on your moral framework.
I don't need mental help, you do. You've displayed a near-total apathy toward humanity with all the points you've made here.
Also, if you think it's appropriate to tell someone to "seek mental help" because they are honest about the fact that they are judgmental, you really, really do have a social and probably a thinking impediment.
First, I absolutely care about how other people act insofar as their actions affect me.
And second I absolutely care about how other people act insofar as their actions affect society.
I also kind of care about how their actions affect themselves but I'm a big proponent of personal freedom if that personal freedom doesn't conflict with anyone else's personal freedom or doesn't detract terribly from society's general health.
I can't even comprehend a person that simply doesn't care how other people act. I think you actually do care how other people act, you're just not communicating your point properly.
I really do not care how a persons actions affect society. I do care how they affect me, and those I choose to care about. I just do not expect them to live up to my personal code of ethics.
Yes, I think - logically - you should. And yes I do expect people to live up to my standards. My moral standards communicate to me what it is to be a good person. I arrived at this from personal experiences and so I cut people some judgmental slack but overall I do think that my moral compass allows for enough framework diversity that I can safely judge people to some degree. I'm not going to condemn someone who had his thumbs blown off in 'Nam if they do not signal when turning or changing lanes, but I'll condemn every other person who does, with glee.
You realize your advocating me declaring you a amoral idiot right? You do not live up to my standards. I do not judge you based on my standards. You think it should. Do you not see the problem here? Their could be any number of factors that prevent a person from signaling that you might be unaware of. Under your code you condemn them in ignorance. Under mine, you assume either they are idiots, or they have a reason for doing what they are doing. I accept i may never know which of the two is correct.
Its best to think on it. Sometimes an "amoral" choice is the smartest. Act based on the information you have at the time in what you feel to be a moral manner. Is it ok to kill a crying baby to avoid giving away your location to people who would kill you if they found you?
Given the information of person X killed a baby you might judge them harshly. Given more information you might change your mind. Understanding you will never have all the information means its best to hold off judgment on people.
You don't have to come up with a rule for everything, but are you really going to tell me you don't have any judgments on what is a "good" or "bad" action? So if someone throws a baby into the path of an oncoming train, that isn't a "bad" person? A person that murders his wife and three children so he can take her insurance money and run off to Mexico with his mistress isn't a bad person? Again, spare me. You talk about nebulous shit like working in a soup kitchen while I'm pointing out that everyone makes judgment calls on other people unless you are a completely unempathetic, apathetic person. Let me be clear here. It's not possible to be empathic or even sympathetic without being judgmental. Judgmentalism works in the positive and the negative.
You talk of "nebulous shit" like tossing a baby in front of a train, yet you do not provide a circumstance where that may be the "moral" thing to do. You imply some actions are always right, and some are always wrong. Yes you DO have to come up with a rule for everything. Every situation in life you encounter is different. Every situation requires a judgment that circumstances could make a previously moral choice into an amoral one.
nnnd you've just proved you're crazy. You're telling me that I have no right to judge others based on my moral framework but you are judging me based on your moral framework.
I don't need mental help, you do. You've displayed a near-total apathy toward humanity with all the points you've made here.
Should I care about my fellow man when his actions do not affect me, or those I care about? Let him live his or her life as he sees fit without me making snap judgments upon them as they wander through my sphere of notice.
Also, if you think it's appropriate to tell someone to "seek mental help" because they are honest about the fact that they are judgmental, you really, really do have a social and probably a thinking impediment.
No i say to seek mental help because you make snap judgments about other people and feel its "good" to feel superior to total strangers without knowing a thing about them. It could be a sign of deep rooted self esteem issues. Heck it could be a sign of a lot of things. Consult your local professional.
I think I can accept the idea that some pedophiles, or even say, most pedophiles are people with a severe mental disorder that makes them sexually attracted to children.
I am comfortable with the idea that these urges they feel are not their fault, that they are a product of brain chemistry and complex psychology and it's not really their choice to feel these feelings.
I can accept all that.
I can't accept a conscious, cognitively aware adult committing these acts knowingly and say that he's not to blame.
No, he is to blame. Just because he has a mental condition that makes him feel things that are completely unacceptable to others doesn't give him a free pass to commit these acts without blame or punishment.
He can't control the fact that he feels these impulses, but he can control the fact that he acts on them.
Outside of any "moral framework" argument, or any kind of argument over who gets to judge who and about what, I think that it's fair to say the following:
A cognitively alert, consciously aware adult is capable of making his own choices, and it is fair of society at large to hold him personally responsible for the consequences of his chosen actions.
There are situations where people don't have control over how they act. Their mental imbalance is so powerful that they have no ability to control their impulses, or are mentally incapable of processing that these things are unacceptable and should not be acted upon.
In those cases, these people need to be kept in a type of institution appropriate to their conduct. They need mental help, and for the safety of both themselves and the greater public, they do need to be put away from the general population and some of their freedoms restricted. It's not their "fault" that this has to happen, but it nonetheless is what has to happen, until a remedy or treatment or therapy method can be found that can give them their ability to cognitively choose appropriately.
But the truth is, I don't think that the above paragraph applies to most pedophiles. This is based on their willful ability to control their impulses and conceal them, choosing to act on them secretly in a context and circumstance where they can get away with doing it.
These people also need help. They also need to be segregated away from the general population. But, the difference is that they are making an active choice to engage in these acts, and for that reason, should also be held legally accountable for their actions.
They are to blame for how they act, not necessarily how they think.
To say otherwise is to not only give a free pass to all manner of criminal conduct, it's also outright belittling to people who have extremely difficult mental problems but manage to make the choice to control and even overcome them.
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It comes up a lot in D&D, but it's worth saying again - "beliefs" are not some special protected thing. Not all beliefs are good. Some are downright evil. Some of yours seem to make you a shitty person.
Also, watching every single episode of TCAP since its inception probably isn't healthy.
Maintain inner calm, relax. It is the internet. People are always going to make snap value judgments about you. It is best to stick to the topic at hand and not let anger force you into posting things. For instance they argue that your opinions may make it difficult for pedophiles to get the help they need. Explore that, how does a deeply troubled man get help, when the only place to get help he cannot go?
I know, amusing is it not. Perhaps they might have more sympathy if you touched children. Seriously though, relax. Just accept that everyone has mental problems, you may have problems feeling empathy, they may have problems judging those who lack empathy. Try and find a common ground where you can discuss things rational. Also your caps lock appears to be on, no biggie. It happens.
Possibly, however the people will all the information felt their was a damn good chance they would be found liable for causing the death and settled out of court. Think on that for a moment. They knew they fucked up, and tossed money at the family to avoid going to court and having to publicly reveal just how badly they fucked up.
Because your still alive? Its only horrible if you do not show empathy toward dead people.
Personally I see it as hypocrisy. The dead have better things to do that worry about who cares about who. I'd save my empathy for the living.
Deeply troubled man kills self. Condemn that which drove him to the edge.
Deeply troubled man posts on the internet. Condemn him thereby becoming what drove him to the edge.
Some people just do not feel empathy, or emotions the same way as others. Doesn't mean they are wrong, or should be attacked. Besides if he goes and offs himself do we really want to see the D&D forums being sued for driving him over the edge? Its best to stick to the topic of trashy TV.
Uhhh... he doesn't seem able to differentiate between empathy and schadenfreude. He isn't important enough to anyone here, where we would be happy to see him die. No one has a grudge against him. That is not the same as not feeling bad when someone dies.
You are right. Some people don't feel empathy the same way other people do. Some people feel attracted to children. You have previously stated that you don't feel society shouldn't try to fix people, IIRC. I don't agree.
All very true. However remember your advocating showing empathy to one man who offed himself due to mental conditions, while attacking another with mental conditions. I mean you've already got him turning his caps lock on and everything. If that isn't a cry for help i don't know what is.
EDIT: The problem with society fixing people is it has to determine first what is wrong with people. People run such a gambit of mental problems that it is likely impossible to find a truly healthy mind. Some of the most broken people I know are also the most functional.
The best we can hope for is to isolate certain bad behaviors, and attempt to convince the person to stop them either through negative reinforcement, drugs, or lots of therapy. However, their is nothing wrong with these people other than their urges do not fit with the morals of society at large. Some societies may say their behavior is ok, while others are firmly against it.
Its all a value judgment based on majority rules at the end, and its kind hard to "fix" someone who is outside of that.
It's not hypocrisy to condemn zergling for being a dick unless I honestly believe that my condemnation is going to somehow hurt him, and I don't. Sometimes people telling us that we're fucked up is how we realize that we're fucking up.
You made him turn his caps lock on. You obviously hurt him. You may not have realized that you could at the time, but unfortunately you did. Consider it your "people telling us we're fucked up" and show a bit more empathy in the future. Or send the swat team to his house, either way.
No no Quid, it's cool. Vigilante justice is OK for Zergling and wrong for everyone else. It totally makes sense.
I think everyone agreed that it was stupid for the police to send a swat team to go pick up someone accused of sex solicitation to a minor. I'm pretty sure a swat team is not standard protocol for having a steamy chat with someone who may or may not be a minor. Or maybe we didn't agree on that. Did we?
So what exactly is the new topic here? I've seen this argument fracture about ten times since the start. Are we talking about whether or not it's ethical to beat the snot out of child molesters (accused or otherwise) or are we arguing about whether or not it's O.K. for Chris Hansen to publicize people accused of soliciting sex to a minor?
Also, I wish there was a stronger support network for pedophiles, instead of this "kill em all, let God sort em out" shit.
Like in all seriousness...i understand how you guys feel saying it's sad..but i'm not trying to be shocking when i say i just don't feel it. i just don't. I truely feel so out of touch with fellow man. I usually feel disgust and contempt for people in general...including myself.
I have discussed this with a therapist and a priest (even thought i'm not catholic) but nothing seems to connect. I totally respect a priest that can forgive and love even someone who sins against him, but bottom line is i can't...more like i don't know how. I would LOVE to be able to be like that. TO be able to forgive and turn the other cheek. Seriously i really really wish i could feel your point of view rather than just understand it.
But i don't. and i don't know how to change that.
maybe thats coming through when i post this stuff, but i realize thats my issue.
i also don't have an inner monologue and for years thought people were making that shit up to mess with me. Like when people say "when you read something do you basically hear a voice in your head saying the words"....nope. I can't even conceive that concept. My friend is always blown away by that concept. I also have a hard time censoring myself....i just don't get it. Like saying stuff that might offend someone..if i'm not trying to offend someone then i don't realize what i say might be offensive.
Thats shit i have been trying to change for years and i don't know how.
Oh i also have a hero complex and don't value my own life. My therapist found that fascinating and did some thesis for her masters on me. I saw a guy hitting his g/f and stepped in and had a gun pulled on me. I looked him in the eyes and called him a pussy for hitting a woman and needing a gun. I told him i called the cops (which i had) and he took off on his motorcycle.
i didn't want to die, but i figured if it happened it happened...i wasn't gonna let this asshole beat on his girl. I mean like 5 people walked past and hurried away with the "not my problem" attitude and it sickened me.
sorry i got waaaay off on a tangent there..but maybe it gives you insight as to how i think and value life?
I in all honestly will dwell on this for days. Seeing if i'm wrong, if i could handle it better. Get mad at myself for not expressing myself the way i want.
And no i'm not kidding.
Don't be silly. There's nothing in between those two.
Are you an aspie or something?
Correct...but i acknowledge i have this desire. I know i have it. I WISH i didn't. It's a fucking weight to feel like this man. And i'm on medication for it, i've talked to multiple therapists for it, and even a priest out of desperation to NOT feel like this.
The only pride i take is that i can recognize i have this but i feel i will never act on it. and if i do i will turn myself in because i fucked up.
I don't know what that is or if you were trying to call me an asswipe or an asspie and misspelled?
So if a television show trolled you into marching off to murder a pedophile, and instead there was a SWAT team there who arrested you and charged you with, oh, I don't know: attempted murder and conspiracy to commit murder, would you say this was "justice" "really awesome justice" "super extra justicetasticosity" or would you be like "Hello, where's my fucking due process and have you ever heard of entrapment, assholes?"
-edit-
And aspie is slang for someone with Asperger's Syndrome, a type of high-functioning autism that produces marvelously insane replicants who occasionally are able to masquerade as human beings. Fortunately the Voight-Kamph test quickly separates them out from the humans.
Wanting to punish people for the wrongs they've committed is one thing. Saying "I'd fucking kill him no doubt" is another thing. And saying "I'd definitely fucking kill him" and then later "but I feel I will never act on it" is a third thing.
Drez is a fourth thing. A very confused fourth thing.
Nobody's saying you can't hate rapists and child abusers and even want to do them harm, but that's not what you were talking about earlier: you were expressing something akin to an entitlement to vengeance and you were actually condescending to people who were saying that, well, no, you don't have a right to murder rapists. What you were expressing earlier and what you are expressing now are two wholly different attitudes.
Just wanted to comment on this. If a person feels that it is ok to kill someone who performs crime X, they are not necessarily in the wrong from a personal moral standpoint. You could argue they do not have the right to murder rapists and not expect to be prosecuted under the law.
A person may feel that based on situation X that they are perfectly in the right to, lets say, murdering rapists. They may also realize that while their actions are illegal, and they may be caught and punished, that does not necessarily make them amoral. Morality is a very personal thing that can vary from person to person, from situation to situation.
I may personal feel that under certain circumstances it would be amoral of me to spare the life of someone. You may feel that it is always the moral thing to spare someones life. Both are value judgments.
If a person feels morally justified in committing a crime, we can prosecute them under the law. However I have a difficult time declaring them amoral just because they do not conform to my own personal code of morals.
But i don't instead i call the cops and confront him. But my own kid? i dunno if i could contain that. i really really don't.
plus i end up hating society when other people hear shit like this and say "oh don't get involved"
Did you see that news story in CT where 2 people racing hit an old man in the road and NO ONE came to his side??? WTF? you maggots see an old man run down in the street and go about your day?? what the fuck is wrong with people? Why do we even deserve the gift of life?
jeepguy- first thanks for insulting me again you never disappoint. i like that we're supposed to feel for the mental rejects that are child molesters but you say people with a disorder like Asperger's Syndrome aren't even human beings HOW THE FUCK IS THAT NOT HYPOCRISY?????
SECOND.....if someone want to kill their lets say wife. and hires a hitman to do it. But never actually kills her because the hit man is a undercover cop...is that entrapment. What if that were a show on tv? Police pretending to be a hitman engaging people on-line then busting them on camera when they show up with the payment? They didn't actually kill their wife...but the money they bring proves their intent. (as far as the courts are concerned) This shit happens on cops and other shows a lot...should we feel for those people? I'm seriously wondering what you think.
And i could not have stated more times that if i killed the person that i would have to face the music.
You're making a better point than i am. I guess my morals are different than the majority here.
I'm not declaring him "amoral," I'm declaring him "immoral." What good is a personal code of ethics if you don't judge others by this code? I mean, it only makes sense to have a moral code that you think makes you a good person, right? And by extension, people who happen to follow the same code as you are good and people who don't aren't as good as you. Isn't the point of an (honest) personal moral code to be as good as you can? And isn't it natural to feel some superiority over people that don't? And isn't judging other people a natural Human trait?
It's all fine and good to advertise a non-judgmental personality but I'm not above judging other human beings by my own concept of morality. We all live on Earth and we all live in, for the most part, a pretty homogeneous Human society (at least the people foruming here do) so I think we're all operating in, more or less, the same general frameworks. So I don't have any qualms about throwing the book at someone based on my own perception.
People with Asperger's have entire fucking societies and support groups dedicated to raising awareness and money for their emotionally-stunted little selves. They have veritable armies of attack lawyers at their beck and call to destroy anyone who makes the slightest mistake in the handling of the preshus lil autists.
So they don't really need my sympathy very much. Whereas pedophiles are the most shat upon fucks on the face of the Earth. Their mental illness is no less a clinical reality than those with autism spectrum disorders.
Also, the replicant/non-human stuff was a joke. If you knew anything about autism and had read your Phillip K. Dick or watched Blade Runner, it would have been a really obvious joke, too. :P
No actually a personal code of ethics has 0 to do with other people. It is about how you live your life, the choices you make, and has jack all to do with any other human being on the planet. Your code could be as simple as "Do no harm" to "Do as you like, provided you dont kill 4 year old asian girls. Without a good reason. Tuesday is a perfectly viable reason." It however is not an excuse to judge others.
If your feeling superior to others, thats obviously not a "good" thing. Especially if its based off the fact they are not living up to your own standards, that you control, and can arbitrarily change the rules for.
You sure this post is not a work of sarcasm?
Yeah those lucky ones with Asperger's Syndrome! damn they have it good. You just spit in the face of every family member of someone suffering from this. I should feel sympathy for a molester but fuck the people with Aspergers?
WOW! and i'm a shitty person. Dude that makes you so much worse. And if you can't see why, pull you head out of your ass. Go tell a dad whos kid has Aspergers that his kid has it good and that he should be concerned about the child rapists.
You're the worst human being i know and i'm done with this.
Why would you turn yourself in? According to your own beliefs you have done nothing "wrong." If you feel you had then obviously you would have a reason to do something to absolve yourself, or at least face justice.
However since you have done nothing "wrong" its not your job to do the cops job for them. It is their job to catch you, gather evidence, and convict you under our laws. If they fail to gather sufficient evidence, or taint it somehow, and you are found innocent then you have done nothing illegal.
You own personal morality determines what is right and wrong, if you feel your action should be illegal, then it follows you would feel it would be amoral. IE you would not feel its ok to murder rapists.
Oh my God, sigged.
Are you talking about your own post? I hope you're being sarcastic or...something.
You follow "actually a personal code of ethics has 0 to do with other people" with examples of...how personal ethics has very much to do with other people. Like doing harm/not doing harm. Etc. Buh? That's just weird. Personal ethics have a great deal to do with other people.
But maybe you just failed to understand my point and you're talking about judgmentalism. No, a personal code of ethics is not constructed around judging people, but judging others is a natural extension of having a personal code of ethics, especially when you specifically realize you have a "personal code of ethics." Most people just live their lives as they want, while others try to conform to some code of ethics that they've decided upon and that they are significantly aware of. "Don't harm others," "abortion is wrong!" "give to beggars," "walk old people across the street," "don't fuck the neighbor's wife," "having sex with llamas is wrong," "tailgating is evil," etc. All of these things go into a personal moral code and you feel you are being a good person when you live up to these ideals. Are you really saying - if you held all the above as good ethos - that you could divorce yourself from your own ethics to the point where you feel that a sadistic, zygote-killing, beggar-bypassing, old person ignoring, neighbor's-wife-and-llama-fucking tailgater is not a morally weak person?
Spare me the bullshit. A personal moral code is your own little handbook of right and wrong/good and evil. And by following the choices you identify as "good," you think of yourself as a good person. When you follow choices you identify as "bad," you would normally think of yourself as a bad person. Now lets say you see someone else making these choices you've identified as good or bad. Are you saying that your personal concept of morality never factors into what you think of this other person, whether they are good or bad? Like I said at the start of this paragraph: spare me the bullshit.
I especially like how you suggest that a feeling of superiority is not a "good thing" in a post in which you are attempting to defend different moral perceptions. I personally am happy with my moral framework and my feeling of superiority over people that don't act the way I feel they should. I feel superior to people that don't signal when changing lanes, for instance. I think these people are complete douchebags. And that's just one example. Judging people? An internal feeling of moral superiority? I'm A-OK with it. And by your own argument, you really have no ground to tell me that my feelings of superiority are not "good."
Pedophiles can have Asperger's too, you know. They might even have Arachnophobia on top of all that. Maybe OCD too. You could have an obsessive-compulsive, spider-fearing, child-fucking lunatic with Asperger's on your hands. So what if a pedophile has all these things and you just have Asperger's. Does he deserve more sympathy than you in that case?*
*This assumes you aren't afraid of spiders or have OCD, but you don't strike me as the spider-fearing type.
Not at all, I use sarcasm tags for that, its just safer.
I disagree, I expect me to live up to my own personal code of ethics. I do not care if other people live up to it or not. Why should I? Their is a reason they are called "other" people.
Should i consider you a morally weak person because you do not measure up to my code of ethics? You seem to expect others to live up to your standards. Should i expect the same of you? You fail to live up to my standards. See where this has gotten us? Having failed to live up to my standards, ethically your opinion becomes meaningless to me. Which now comes back to having declared you an amoral, expendable, meat puppet your code of ethics will likely demand some form of retort. All because you feel the need to decide whether im moral or not based on subjective, biased, criteria.
I do not judge people based on whether i find their actions moral, or amoral. I judge them based on whether their actions make sense or not.
Whoever said i thought of myself as a good person? I havn't even managed to work out the criteria for a "good" person. Does a good person compulsively spend every waking moment in a soup kitchen? What if its due to a mental disorder, and their constant need to help others stems from a mental condition. What about the vigilante that kills people, but has a strict code. Is he a good person? Does killing make him wrong? What if hes saving more lives than he takes? Is being a good person defined as helping others? What about if its for the wrong reason? Minimizing harm caused to others? Heck I consider myself a person doing the best I can, im not worried about subjective good, or evil. I'm worried about helping/not hurting the people I care about.
Its all subjective. I prefer not to get into whether a person is "good" or "evil." The best description Ive been giving by a third party on how i judge people is that i judge based on how well people manage their mental illness. Everyone has their flaws, and I prefer to look at just how well a person functions despite what has been done to them.
In my moral frame work it is not a "good" thing. You have basically setup a way for you to feel superior to everyone you meet, quickly. You fail to take into account their own moral code, the lives they have lived, or extenuating circumstances. Its like sitting in the bathroom and shooting everyone who leaves without washing their hands. Even if all they did was come in and straighten a tie.
I have every ground, based on my own moral framework to tell you its not good. I subscribe to situational ethics. I.E. What is right, or wrong can change based on the surrounded situation. So you spouting off about how if people dont meet your own ethical code means, ethically, i can tell you that you should probably seek mental help. Which you should.
what's your point?
Also on the subject of "disease" this is also kindof a bullshit argument. Because what is and isn't a disease and what it's named and how it's defined change every 5 minutes. Homosexuality used to be a disease. Now it's not. The guy in the above picture "used" to have psychopathy. Now psychopathy isn't an officially recognized disorder anymore and has been supplanted by ASPD. Which is allegedly synonymous with psychopathy except for they have two different sets of symptoms and two different criteria for diagnosis and some people who fit the criteria for one wont meet the other and visa versa.
Are you joking? This is the most antisocial thing I've read here in a long, long time.
First, I absolutely care about how other people act insofar as their actions affect me.
And second I absolutely care about how other people act insofar as their actions affect society.
I also kind of care about how their actions affect themselves but I'm a big proponent of personal freedom if that personal freedom doesn't conflict with anyone else's personal freedom or doesn't detract terribly from society's general health.
I can't even comprehend a person that simply doesn't care how other people act. I think you actually do care how other people act, you're just not communicating your point properly.
Yes, I think - logically - you should. And yes I do expect people to live up to my standards. My moral standards communicate to me what it is to be a good person. I arrived at this from personal experiences and so I cut people some judgmental slack but overall I do think that my moral compass allows for enough framework diversity that I can safely judge people to some degree. I'm not going to condemn someone who had his thumbs blown off in 'Nam if they do not signal when turning or changing lanes, but I'll condemn every other person who does, with glee.
Uhm...okay. I am literally speechless at this.
You don't have to come up with a rule for everything, but are you really going to tell me you don't have any judgments on what is a "good" or "bad" action? So if someone throws a baby into the path of an oncoming train, that isn't a "bad" person? A person that murders his wife and three children so he can take her insurance money and run off to Mexico with his mistress isn't a bad person? Again, spare me. You talk about nebulous shit like working in a soup kitchen while I'm pointing out that everyone makes judgment calls on other people unless you are a completely unempathetic, apathetic person. Let me be clear here. It's not possible to be empathic or even sympathetic without being judgmental. Judgmentalism works in the positive and the negative.
This doesn't have anything to do with the argument I am making.
Annnd you've just proved you're crazy. You're telling me that I have no right to judge others based on my moral framework but you are judging me based on your moral framework.
I don't need mental help, you do. You've displayed a near-total apathy toward humanity with all the points you've made here.
Also, if you think it's appropriate to tell someone to "seek mental help" because they are honest about the fact that they are judgmental, you really, really do have a social and probably a thinking impediment.
I really do not care how a persons actions affect society. I do care how they affect me, and those I choose to care about. I just do not expect them to live up to my personal code of ethics.
You realize your advocating me declaring you a amoral idiot right? You do not live up to my standards. I do not judge you based on my standards. You think it should. Do you not see the problem here? Their could be any number of factors that prevent a person from signaling that you might be unaware of. Under your code you condemn them in ignorance. Under mine, you assume either they are idiots, or they have a reason for doing what they are doing. I accept i may never know which of the two is correct.
Its best to think on it. Sometimes an "amoral" choice is the smartest. Act based on the information you have at the time in what you feel to be a moral manner. Is it ok to kill a crying baby to avoid giving away your location to people who would kill you if they found you?
Given the information of person X killed a baby you might judge them harshly. Given more information you might change your mind. Understanding you will never have all the information means its best to hold off judgment on people.
You talk of "nebulous shit" like tossing a baby in front of a train, yet you do not provide a circumstance where that may be the "moral" thing to do. You imply some actions are always right, and some are always wrong. Yes you DO have to come up with a rule for everything. Every situation in life you encounter is different. Every situation requires a judgment that circumstances could make a previously moral choice into an amoral one.
But it does have to do with the one im making.
Isnt that exactly what you told me to do?
Should I care about my fellow man when his actions do not affect me, or those I care about? Let him live his or her life as he sees fit without me making snap judgments upon them as they wander through my sphere of notice.
No i say to seek mental help because you make snap judgments about other people and feel its "good" to feel superior to total strangers without knowing a thing about them. It could be a sign of deep rooted self esteem issues. Heck it could be a sign of a lot of things. Consult your local professional.
A D&D topic, but definitely not this D&D topic.
Hint Hint!
I am comfortable with the idea that these urges they feel are not their fault, that they are a product of brain chemistry and complex psychology and it's not really their choice to feel these feelings.
I can accept all that.
I can't accept a conscious, cognitively aware adult committing these acts knowingly and say that he's not to blame.
No, he is to blame. Just because he has a mental condition that makes him feel things that are completely unacceptable to others doesn't give him a free pass to commit these acts without blame or punishment.
He can't control the fact that he feels these impulses, but he can control the fact that he acts on them.
Outside of any "moral framework" argument, or any kind of argument over who gets to judge who and about what, I think that it's fair to say the following:
A cognitively alert, consciously aware adult is capable of making his own choices, and it is fair of society at large to hold him personally responsible for the consequences of his chosen actions.
There are situations where people don't have control over how they act. Their mental imbalance is so powerful that they have no ability to control their impulses, or are mentally incapable of processing that these things are unacceptable and should not be acted upon.
In those cases, these people need to be kept in a type of institution appropriate to their conduct. They need mental help, and for the safety of both themselves and the greater public, they do need to be put away from the general population and some of their freedoms restricted. It's not their "fault" that this has to happen, but it nonetheless is what has to happen, until a remedy or treatment or therapy method can be found that can give them their ability to cognitively choose appropriately.
But the truth is, I don't think that the above paragraph applies to most pedophiles. This is based on their willful ability to control their impulses and conceal them, choosing to act on them secretly in a context and circumstance where they can get away with doing it.
These people also need help. They also need to be segregated away from the general population. But, the difference is that they are making an active choice to engage in these acts, and for that reason, should also be held legally accountable for their actions.
They are to blame for how they act, not necessarily how they think.
To say otherwise is to not only give a free pass to all manner of criminal conduct, it's also outright belittling to people who have extremely difficult mental problems but manage to make the choice to control and even overcome them.