@ "Avalanche" - you've certainly pegged the utility aspect of the truck, but as for performance? Sorry, even a Golf TDI would give the Avalanche a run for its money; track, MPG, daily driver... And for the gas mileage, I'd rather put the Challenger back on the table.
@ "M3 Miles" - BMWs have (historically and personally) seen trouble past 80,000 miles - questionable service or immaculate. The fact that I would have no idea just how hard the car had been driven only serves to deter me more. The idea is to buy new (or as close to new) as possible; I will be selling/trading up 5 years down the road anyway.
@ "STI" - I drove the Generation before last in a manual setup. It felt really good, but as I said in my OP, my complaints are that it seems too small inside and it lacks the "clean" aspect I'm looking for. It's power is undeniable, which is why it's above the Mazdaspeed 3. I dunno, though, 10k under the hood of a Mazdaspeed 3 and I'd be spanking the STI, wouldn't I? Assuming that 10k is spent on a built engine and suspension, not "dubs" and a "system"
Probably not. The 3 already has problems with wheelspin and torque steer; pouring on more power would be a mistake. You'd have to spend a significant amount of money on the drivetrain to be able to put that power on the ground.
Plus, warranty. You're going to want to keep that.
@ "M3" - even if I get lucky and find a 5 year old M3 that HASN'T been thrashed daily, it's a BMW and on principle, I will not own a BMW with over 50,000 miles I didn't put on it. Good idea, but that's why the 135i is on the list.
What's wrong with driving a car that has miles that you didn't put on it? It's always a partial risk buying a used car but M3 vs. 1 series isn't even a fair comparison to me.
You buy an M3 to thrash it mate. I wouldn't want to buy a car knowing it had been thrashed by someone other than me. Unless you have detailed records (on a properly taken care of M3 you honestly should) you've no idea what that car has been through. And 5 years even for an M3 is pushing it. In terms of german cars I really don't think anyone should spend the money unless they can afford a really nice car + maintenance package. For the same amount of money you spend on the cheapest BMW you can get so much more car from a different make. And it would still be a fantastic car.
All the people I've known buy M3s and baby them. People buy Mustangs and Civic SIs to thrash them. Generally the people who thrash cars are young and those people often can't afford a brand new M3.
I agree, a BMW wouldn't be my first choice but I would much rather have the far nicer car with some wear than the less interesting new car.
Borrrrring. It has the numbers and utility, but I'm not 1) 35+ and 2) size 46 waist. If I want to be lulled to sleep on the drive home, I may consider it :P
I dunno, though, 10k under the hood of a Mazdaspeed 3 and I'd be spanking the STI, wouldn't I? Assuming that 10k is spent on a built engine and suspension, not "dubs" and a "system"
What are you really shopping for here? Do you want penis size via automobile? Unless you're an autocrosser what does it matter whether you can "spank" an STi or not? Spank it at what anyway? A drag race from a stoplight? Maybe you need to reconsider what you're going to actually use this car for.
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ShogunHair long; money long; me and broke wizards we don't get alongRegistered Userregular
@ "M3" - even if I get lucky and find a 5 year old M3 that HASN'T been thrashed daily, it's a BMW and on principle, I will not own a BMW with over 50,000 miles I didn't put on it. Good idea, but that's why the 135i is on the list.
What's wrong with driving a car that has miles that you didn't put on it? It's always a partial risk buying a used car but M3 vs. 1 series isn't even a fair comparison to me.
You buy an M3 to thrash it mate. I wouldn't want to buy a car knowing it had been thrashed by someone other than me. Unless you have detailed records (on a properly taken care of M3 you honestly should) you've no idea what that car has been through. And 5 years even for an M3 is pushing it. In terms of german cars I really don't think anyone should spend the money unless they can afford a really nice car + maintenance package. For the same amount of money you spend on the cheapest BMW you can get so much more car from a different make. And it would still be a fantastic car.
All the people I've known buy M3s and baby them. People buy Mustangs and Civic SIs to thrash them. Generally the people who thrash cars are young and those people often can't afford a brand new M3.
I agree, a BMW wouldn't be my first choice but I would much rather have the far nicer car with some wear than the less interesting new car.
My brother drives a 330xi and he thrashes the christ out of that car. I've thrashed the christ out of that car. You're clearly american I don't think you understand what I mean when I say thrash. Thrashing is not treating your car like shit because it is a ford mustang. Thrashing is driving a car like an m3 the way it is meant to be driven. An m3 is not designed, engineered, and driven to be babied. In fact no BMW is except maybe the useless x series.
Diesel prices will be going down as Biodiesel 20% can run in all engines. Infact many can run BD100% the reason it hasn't been used yet is because the standard for BD was just approved
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firewaterwordSatchitanandaPais Vasco to San FranciscoRegistered Userregular
edited July 2008
OK, first of all... I missed a good deal of a car thread . Bloody work.
Second of all, please don't buy a 1 series BMW. If you're going for BMW, please go for a 325. You'll thank yourself for it down the road.
To reply to what someone said on the first page, regarding the G35 v. Z - The Z is a faster car, to be sure, but the G is much nicer as a daily driver. Plus, you're far less likely to die in the G than you are in the Z.
I drive a G35 coupe, and as such, feel it is my duty to come and promote the glory of the car. I'm totally, utterly biased. But if you're after performance, it will give it to you in spades, without the expensive maintenance you'll have with a BMW.
Also, for a sports coupe, the RX-8 is actually pretty damn practical. It has a ton of room in the back (for a coupe) and it's easy to get back there. It just burns oil and is thirsty as all hell. Still fun to drive though!
Anyway, I'm short on time, and there's a ton of good advice in this thread, so I'll wish you best of luck!
EDIT - Oh, and for what it's worth regarding BMW longevity, my previous car was a 1984 325i, which still runs. The odometer broke 8 years ago (at about 180,000 miles), and I'm certain it's over 210,000. If treated properly, they can run forever.
Everyone I know who owns a G35 (a surprising number of people) loves the car to death. At least one guy plans on buying another one immediately when the one he's driving wears out.
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Donovan PuppyfuckerA dagger in the dark isworth a thousand swords in the morningRegistered Userregular
edited July 2008
If you're interested in going fast in a straight line then get the Mazdaspeed 3, the 135, the R32 or the STI. If you're interested in going around corners without fighting understeer then get the 135. If you're interested in getting a large car for the same money that will fit heaps of dogs in it and will smoke all of those cars in a straight line and you can go around corners and you can showoff with big lairy powerslides wherever and whenever you want, get yourself a Holden Commodore SS (sorry I mean a Pontiac G8) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-xRvDpVtfw
It now has a 6.2 (out of the Corvette) that puts out 317 kW "As feminine as a burst sausage"... and only 0.3 of a second slower around the track than a 911 turbo and faster in the wet than an NSX type R in the dry...
If performance is truly what you want then all the cars in your list don't really compare. As far as the gas mileage goes, whilst you watch the video you'll see that the average before they go mental drifting it around the circuit was nearly 22 mpg. If you do more highway and freeway driving it will be better than that too.
Sorry, I forgot to mention this - I'm not a slavering Holden fanboy - I love Fords. I much prefer the FPV G6eTurbo - look it up, you'll wish we exported those to America too! Where I live Holdens tend to attract the type that Amercans refer to as rednecks, doing burnouts on suburban roads and driving like assholes.
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Donovan PuppyfuckerA dagger in the dark isworth a thousand swords in the morningRegistered Userregular
OK, first of all... I missed a good deal of a car thread . Bloody work.
Also, for a sports coupe, the RX-8 is actually pretty damn practical. It has a ton of room in the back (for a coupe) and it's easy to get back there. It just burns oil and is thirsty as all hell. Still fun to drive though!
EDIT - Oh, and for what it's worth regarding BMW longevity, my previous car was a 1984 325i, which still runs. The odometer broke 8 years ago (at about 180,000 miles), and I'm certain it's over 210,000. If treated properly, they can run forever.
Point one is misleading - rotaries don't use any more fuel than a different engine making the same amount of power. Sure they might use twice as much as a redular 1.3 litre, but they also make twice as much power... You can't make more power without burning more fuel. Compare an RX8 to a car that puts out about the same power like an Accord V6 or something like that and you'll see that the fuel consumption isn't bad at all. Also, rotaries don't burn oil anymore. Way back in the days of the first gen RX7 they had high oil consumption, but with much higher quality and better performing rotor side and tip seals these days there is no difference to a regular engine.
Point two "If treated properly, they can run forever." This is true about almost every car ever built. Unless you're driving a Yugo or a Trabant...
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firewaterwordSatchitanandaPais Vasco to San FranciscoRegistered Userregular
Point one is misleading - rotaries don't use any more fuel than a different engine making the same amount of power. Sure they might use twice as much as a redular 1.3 litre, but they also make twice as much power... You can't make more power without burning more fuel. Compare an RX8 to a car that puts out about the same power like an Accord V6 or something like that and you'll see that the fuel consumption isn't bad at all. Also, rotaries don't burn oil anymore. Way back in the days of the first gen RX7 they had high oil consumption, but with much higher quality and better performing rotor side and tip seals these days there is no difference to a regular engine.
Point two "If treated properly, they can run forever." This is true about almost every car ever built. Unless you're driving a Yugo or a Trabant...
True! The amount of power a rotary engine can produce, relative to its displacement, is nothing short of stunning. Anyway, the most experience I've had with an RX-8 was a test drive. I was quite impressed. If you're interested, here's Jalopnik's review of the RX-8. They mention slight oil consumption, as have other sources, but I'll have to take chrishallett83's word for it, as I've never owned one. I really wanted an RX-7 when I was car shopping, but all the ones in my area were in less than desirable condition.
I have a 2.0T Audi A3. 0-60 stock is about 6.5 seconds, chipped it's 5.8secs. You go from 200hp/200tq to 250hp/300tq with a $500 chip from APR, REVO, etc.
It's basically an upmarket GTI, with a much nicer interior (best in the world, Audi is), better sound insulation, and a nicer stereo. I also like the look better.
Anyway, I'd scratch the 135 - it's out of your price range. The 128is is actually a fan-fuckinh-tastic car, though.
I'm sure there are exceptions, but generally speaking ECM "upgrades" are a bad idea. Unless you're looking for a way to void your warranty and turn your engine into a ticking time bomb. Then they're awesome.
Seriously, steer clear. I know a couple guys who chipped their cars and blew the motors within a few thousand miles (one an older RX7, one a new-ish WRX). It's not worth it.
These are tried, tested (for hundreds of thousands of miles) chips. Even StaSiS has chip tuning that's sold through dealers. Blown japanese cars are very different from German marques. So, yes - there's nothing wrong with flashing your ECU with performance software if it's from a reputable company. Besides, the dealership can't see it 90% of the time with their scan tools, and most chips come with a way to swap live back to stock programming.
135i's and 335i's with the Twin-Turbo V6 PROceed'd (another chip tuner) are putting down ridiculous numbers, like close to 400HP.
Point one is misleading - rotaries don't use any more fuel than a different engine making the same amount of power. Sure they might use twice as much as a redular 1.3 litre, but they also make twice as much power... You can't make more power without burning more fuel. Compare an RX8 to a car that puts out about the same power like an Accord V6 or something like that and you'll see that the fuel consumption isn't bad at all. Also, rotaries don't burn oil anymore. Way back in the days of the first gen RX7 they had high oil consumption, but with much higher quality and better performing rotor side and tip seals these days there is no difference to a regular engine.
They are less efficient inherently. The biggest problem is the long, thin combustion chamber, which gives you several times the surface area to lose heat through. That's combustion energy lost. Then you've got the apex seals, which still leak more than piston rings (as far as I know). The power differential is also much smaller than it used to be (The RENESIS makes ~237 HP, Suzuki's 1340cc lump makes ~194).
That's not to say they aren't cool, because they are.
Anyway, sticking with the OP's list, I'd say the R32 is the best choice.
These are tried, tested (for hundreds of thousands of miles) chips. Even StaSiS has chip tuning that's sold through dealers. Blown japanese cars are very different from German marques. So, yes - there's nothing wrong with flashing your ECU with performance software if it's from a reputable company. Besides, the dealership can't see it 90% of the time with their scan tools, and most chips come with a way to swap live back to stock programming.
135i's and 335i's with the Twin-Turbo V6 PROceed'd (another chip tuner) are putting down ridiculous numbers, like close to 400HP.
I have some snake oil I'd like to sell you.
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firewaterwordSatchitanandaPais Vasco to San FranciscoRegistered Userregular
edited July 2008
Man, I kind of hate to say this, but the R32 is sort of an ugly car, based on Google image search alone. As I don't think I've seen one in the "flesh" I can't argue the point fully.
As far as the RX-8 goes, I usually associate oil burning gas guzzlers with 80's Ford Broncos.
Anyways, numbers are great and all, but I'd just go drive the cars if at all possible to make your decision. This is in a completely different league, but that's the reason I settled on my 1994 Thunderbird LX 4.6 over a 1995 Mustang GT with a five-ooo.
These are tried, tested (for hundreds of thousands of miles) chips. Even StaSiS has chip tuning that's sold through dealers. Blown japanese cars are very different from German marques. So, yes - there's nothing wrong with flashing your ECU with performance software if it's from a reputable company. Besides, the dealership can't see it 90% of the time with their scan tools, and most chips come with a way to swap live back to stock programming.
135i's and 335i's with the Twin-Turbo V6 PROceed'd (another chip tuner) are putting down ridiculous numbers, like close to 400HP.
I have some snake oil I'd like to sell you.
You really have no idea what you're talking about.
I'm saying the reliability is snake oil, not the results (although in many cases the results are suspect too). Manufacturers build those tolerances into the car for a reason. Of course increasing the boost pressure bumps up the power, that's not the issue, nor is the ability to break your warranty with a reasonable expectation of being able to sneak it past your dealership's mechanics. It's a bad idea, the reward isn't worth the risk.
For what it's worth I have driven a Dinan M3. It's been ten years but it's still the only car I've driven that was too fast. It was frightening, but I'm sure that was more due to the supercharger than any fancy ECU hackery. The previous owner claimed 500(!) horsepower, and after an hour behind the wheel I believed him.
I helped a friend put a new ECU in his WRX (which asploded not long after). I didn't have the heart to tell him that, despite what his laptop said, the car felt pretty much the same. As a counterpoint, the guy that chipped his RX7 did end up with a much faster car for about a thousand miles. In the end it blew the engine so hard it dented the hood in several places.
So I really only read the first page of this thread, and I understand the thrill of performance, but man, unless you are hella wealthy gas prices are going to murder you.
What are your plans in that respect?
Also did anyone suggest the 2008 Lancer Evo? Looks mean as hell.
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Donovan PuppyfuckerA dagger in the dark isworth a thousand swords in the morningRegistered Userregular
Point one is misleading - rotaries don't use any more fuel than a different engine making the same amount of power. Sure they might use twice as much as a redular 1.3 litre, but they also make twice as much power... You can't make more power without burning more fuel. Compare an RX8 to a car that puts out about the same power like an Accord V6 or something like that and you'll see that the fuel consumption isn't bad at all. Also, rotaries don't burn oil anymore. Way back in the days of the first gen RX7 they had high oil consumption, but with much higher quality and better performing rotor side and tip seals these days there is no difference to a regular engine.
They are less efficient inherently. The biggest problem is the long, thin combustion chamber, which gives you several times the surface area to lose heat through. That's combustion energy lost. Then you've got the apex seals, which still leak more than piston rings (as far as I know). The power differential is also much smaller than it used to be (The RENESIS makes ~237 HP, Suzuki's 1340cc lump makes ~194).
That's not to say they aren't cool, because they are.
Anyway, sticking with the OP's list, I'd say the R32 is the best choice.
When you refer to Suzukis 1340 cc "lump", is it a turbocharged engine? Because the renesis is not. Therefore your comparison is null and void. Show me a factory 1.3 litre engine (not motorcycle engines, besides the Hayabusa donk still only make about 165 hp compared to 237 hp for the rotary) that puts out half the power the renesis does and I'll be really shocked.
THe Dodge Magnum could potentially be the ugliest car ever made. it is like driving a giant cock
You Could grab a Used Saleen Supercharger Mustang this year or one year old for under 35 used according to ebay motors. It baffles me how fast ford is making a dive to hell.
Also due to the brilliance of ebay motors you could get a shelby gt500 (2008-2006) That would be in your asking price considering no tax/ parts labor/ etc hell if you find one close to you, you could drive it of the guys driveway.
So I really only read the first page of this thread, and I understand the thrill of performance, but man, unless you are hella wealthy gas prices are going to murder you.
What are your plans in that respect?
Also did anyone suggest the 2008 Lancer Evo? Looks mean as hell.
The easy way around that is to change the way you drive. Use the brakes less and see what happens to your fuel consumption.
@ "What kind of car?" - I listed the criteria; while performance is #1, daily driver is still #2. I want a great car I can drive to work, or take on decent trips (4+ hours) and not feel fatigued. You'll notice that each car I've chosen has a solid builder's background (STI, R32, even the Bimmer). This car will, over time, be built. If you think it's about "penis size" then gtfo right now.
@ "G8" - Does not meet my criteria for a "clean" but "aggressive" car. Sorry, I recognize it's benchmark and appreciate it, but the car's interior is horrid. If I'm inside the car most of the time it's being driven (and I should hope I am) then the interior should be just as equal a celebration of performance.
@ "G35" - still a very tempting car; I would simply prefer to stay away from something so mainstream (hence, my preference for the performance versions of common cars - R32, Mazdaspeed3, etc)
Cars to be driven: 2008 STI, 2008 R32
Will have one driven this week for sure. That should help clear things up.
The interior of the G35 is nearly as bad as the 350z. It is also a car for wannabe Asian rappers and girls.
I'd still say R32...
...or a used M3 (I know, I know)...;)
When you drive the STi and the R32 for comparison, think really hard about which one you want to be in on a daily basis or when stuck in traffic. A friend of mine that bought an Evo didn't. He has a special hatred for Miami traffic.
If you are considering a 350z or a used M3, then you might as well also consider the new bmw M Coupe
If you look around carefully enough you can probably find them in the 35k range. Dealers often have trouble selling them since many people can't really justify a two-seater hardtop sports car, so expect some big discounts. This is also basically an M3 in disguise, but its been improved and is actually better than the M3 (not the new V8 M3)
There are plenty of people use this car as their daily driver, because its incredibly fun to drive. If you would drive an M3 on a daily basis you can definitely handle this on a daily basis. It has a large boot, certainly enough to carry groceries comfortably and golf bags. If you don't have kids or don't taxi lots of people around two seats is enough. It's aggressive, the interior is clean and minimalistic, no bullshit ricer crap like other cars or shitloads of buttons. Its also an incredibly rare car. If you go here you can see they only made 5,895 of them in 2007, and in 2008 they have so far only made 1,021. And they expect 2008 to be the last year they make them, with the upcoming new version Z4 debutting in 2009.
The ride however may not be the most comfortable because the engine can get loud and you will feel every wrinkle in the road, but some people like that. It IS a sports car.
Maybe not what you're looking for in the end, but I'll take any excuse to bullshit about cars.
He isn't looking for used M3's though. That and Z4 M Coupe's are not plentiful, so, used they still require quite a bit of money and new is way out of budget. On a side note, the steering wheel is so fat I don't know if the average human can actually grasp it.
When you drive the STi and the R32 for comparison, think really hard about which one you want to be in on a daily basis or when stuck in traffic. A friend of mine that bought an Evo didn't. He has a special hatred for Miami traffic.
Yeah, definitely; 2nd criteria: daily driver.
Also, I forgot one point made: thrashing. What I mean is "driven hard" and most likely, yes, the previous owner drove the piss out of it. A M3, as we all know, is a performance car. It is meant to go fast. I know what my mistakes are; I don't know the mistakes OTHER drivers have made. Carfax only tells you so much.
So yeah, I don't want a car that has been "thrashed" by a previous owner for 5 years. I'd rather have one that I've "thrashed" for 5 years.
@ "Z4 Coupe M" - Sexy, yes, but two-seater doesn't really fit the utility of what I'll need. Like I said previously, I would like to be able to get my dog in the backseat if I lack access to my beater. 2+2 is more than 2+0 (Sexy, sexy car though!)
When you drive the STi and the R32 for comparison, think really hard about which one you want to be in on a daily basis or when stuck in traffic. A friend of mine that bought an Evo didn't. He has a special hatred for Miami traffic.
Yeah, definitely; 2nd criteria: daily driver.
Also, I forgot one point made: thrashing. What I mean is "driven hard" and most likely, yes, the previous owner drove the piss out of it. A M3, as we all know, is a performance car. It is meant to go fast. I know what my mistakes are; I don't know the mistakes OTHER drivers have made. Carfax only tells you so much.
So yeah, I don't want a car that has been "thrashed" by a previous owner for 5 years. I'd rather have one that I've "thrashed" for 5 years.
@ "Z4 Coupe M" - Sexy, yes, but two-seater doesn't really fit the utility of what I'll need. Like I said previously, I would like to be able to get my dog in the backseat if I lack access to my beater. 2+2 is more than 2+0 (Sexy, sexy car though!)
I don't know about you, but when I get into a car for the first time I touch everything. Every knob, every switch, the action of the glovebox, action of the windows, everything. Build quality, texture of plastics, interior noise between the Subaru and the VW should be more than a little noticeable. 6 years down the line and 95,000 + miles later I can't say I regret my decision to buy a VW. And it has been driven.
The M3 thing...that's just where I am going. It's a massive commitment. Every one of them out there will have been driven hard, that's just part of the deal. Now, if it has a service history and has been maintained to the letter it will be fine, I will just have to continue that as it's driven. It's really just a different car buying experience to buy something like that. It is a very special car at the end of the day and as such requires special care. Two of my best friends have each recently bought one and I have had a lot of wheel time to say the least. Really quite amazing.
You'll notice that each car I've chosen has a solid builder's background (STI, R32, even the Bimmer). This car will, over time, be built. If you think it's about "penis size" then gtfo right now.
If "be built" is modern parlance for "bolt a bunch of shit onto the engine", then you can discount the R32. It's already pushing the limit of what the transmission can handle.
Also, lol if you try to drive the STi on a 4 hour road trip. You'll shake yourself to pieces. Really, man, you have to decide what kind of car you want and how much you're really willing to spend. You're all over the place here.
You'll notice that each car I've chosen has a solid builder's background (STI, R32, even the Bimmer). This car will, over time, be built. If you think it's about "penis size" then gtfo right now.
If "be built" is modern parlance for "bolt a bunch of shit onto the engine", then you can discount the R32. It's already pushing the limit of what the transmission can handle.
Also, lol if you try to drive the STi on a 4 hour road trip. You'll shake yourself to pieces. Really, man, you have to decide what kind of car you want and how much you're really willing to spend. You're all over the place here.
The new STi is a lot "softer" than the previous one from what I've read, but the interior was most unpleasant in the one I sat in at an auto show.
You'll notice that each car I've chosen has a solid builder's background (STI, R32, even the Bimmer). This car will, over time, be built. If you think it's about "penis size" then gtfo right now.
If "be built" is modern parlance for "bolt a bunch of shit onto the engine", then you can discount the R32. It's already pushing the limit of what the transmission can handle.
Also, lol if you try to drive the STi on a 4 hour road trip. You'll shake yourself to pieces. Really, man, you have to decide what kind of car you want and how much you're really willing to spend. You're all over the place here.
The new STi is a lot "softer" than the previous one from what I've read, but the interior was most unpleasant in the one I sat in at an auto show.
It's made for and by Grey Plastic People from the Grey Plastic Planet. Seriously, the only bigger affront to the senses are Pontiacs back in GM's "let's throw some plastic cladding on it!" years.
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Diesel is almost six bucks a gallon in LA
@ "M3 Miles" - BMWs have (historically and personally) seen trouble past 80,000 miles - questionable service or immaculate. The fact that I would have no idea just how hard the car had been driven only serves to deter me more. The idea is to buy new (or as close to new) as possible; I will be selling/trading up 5 years down the road anyway.
@ "STI" - I drove the Generation before last in a manual setup. It felt really good, but as I said in my OP, my complaints are that it seems too small inside and it lacks the "clean" aspect I'm looking for. It's power is undeniable, which is why it's above the Mazdaspeed 3. I dunno, though, 10k under the hood of a Mazdaspeed 3 and I'd be spanking the STI, wouldn't I? Assuming that 10k is spent on a built engine and suspension, not "dubs" and a "system"
Plus, warranty. You're going to want to keep that.
I agree, a BMW wouldn't be my first choice but I would much rather have the far nicer car with some wear than the less interesting new car.
Double post nooooooooooob
Borrrrring. It has the numbers and utility, but I'm not 1) 35+ and 2) size 46 waist. If I want to be lulled to sleep on the drive home, I may consider it :P
What are you really shopping for here? Do you want penis size via automobile? Unless you're an autocrosser what does it matter whether you can "spank" an STi or not? Spank it at what anyway? A drag race from a stoplight? Maybe you need to reconsider what you're going to actually use this car for.
My brother drives a 330xi and he thrashes the christ out of that car. I've thrashed the christ out of that car. You're clearly american I don't think you understand what I mean when I say thrash. Thrashing is not treating your car like shit because it is a ford mustang. Thrashing is driving a car like an m3 the way it is meant to be driven. An m3 is not designed, engineered, and driven to be babied. In fact no BMW is except maybe the useless x series.
Shogun Streams Vidya
Second of all, please don't buy a 1 series BMW. If you're going for BMW, please go for a 325. You'll thank yourself for it down the road.
To reply to what someone said on the first page, regarding the G35 v. Z - The Z is a faster car, to be sure, but the G is much nicer as a daily driver. Plus, you're far less likely to die in the G than you are in the Z.
I drive a G35 coupe, and as such, feel it is my duty to come and promote the glory of the car. I'm totally, utterly biased. But if you're after performance, it will give it to you in spades, without the expensive maintenance you'll have with a BMW.
Also, for a sports coupe, the RX-8 is actually pretty damn practical. It has a ton of room in the back (for a coupe) and it's easy to get back there. It just burns oil and is thirsty as all hell. Still fun to drive though!
Anyway, I'm short on time, and there's a ton of good advice in this thread, so I'll wish you best of luck!
EDIT - Oh, and for what it's worth regarding BMW longevity, my previous car was a 1984 325i, which still runs. The odometer broke 8 years ago (at about 180,000 miles), and I'm certain it's over 210,000. If treated properly, they can run forever.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-xRvDpVtfw
It now has a 6.2 (out of the Corvette) that puts out 317 kW "As feminine as a burst sausage"... and only 0.3 of a second slower around the track than a 911 turbo and faster in the wet than an NSX type R in the dry...
If performance is truly what you want then all the cars in your list don't really compare. As far as the gas mileage goes, whilst you watch the video you'll see that the average before they go mental drifting it around the circuit was nearly 22 mpg. If you do more highway and freeway driving it will be better than that too.
Sorry, I forgot to mention this - I'm not a slavering Holden fanboy - I love Fords. I much prefer the FPV G6eTurbo - look it up, you'll wish we exported those to America too! Where I live Holdens tend to attract the type that Amercans refer to as rednecks, doing burnouts on suburban roads and driving like assholes.
Point one is misleading - rotaries don't use any more fuel than a different engine making the same amount of power. Sure they might use twice as much as a redular 1.3 litre, but they also make twice as much power... You can't make more power without burning more fuel. Compare an RX8 to a car that puts out about the same power like an Accord V6 or something like that and you'll see that the fuel consumption isn't bad at all. Also, rotaries don't burn oil anymore. Way back in the days of the first gen RX7 they had high oil consumption, but with much higher quality and better performing rotor side and tip seals these days there is no difference to a regular engine.
Point two "If treated properly, they can run forever." This is true about almost every car ever built. Unless you're driving a Yugo or a Trabant...
True! The amount of power a rotary engine can produce, relative to its displacement, is nothing short of stunning. Anyway, the most experience I've had with an RX-8 was a test drive. I was quite impressed. If you're interested, here's Jalopnik's review of the RX-8. They mention slight oil consumption, as have other sources, but I'll have to take chrishallett83's word for it, as I've never owned one. I really wanted an RX-7 when I was car shopping, but all the ones in my area were in less than desirable condition.
It's basically an upmarket GTI, with a much nicer interior (best in the world, Audi is), better sound insulation, and a nicer stereo. I also like the look better.
Anyway, I'd scratch the 135 - it's out of your price range. The 128is is actually a fan-fuckinh-tastic car, though.
I'm sure there are exceptions, but generally speaking ECM "upgrades" are a bad idea. Unless you're looking for a way to void your warranty and turn your engine into a ticking time bomb. Then they're awesome.
Seriously, steer clear. I know a couple guys who chipped their cars and blew the motors within a few thousand miles (one an older RX7, one a new-ish WRX). It's not worth it.
APR: http://www.goapr.com
REVO: http://www.revotechnik.com/
These are tried, tested (for hundreds of thousands of miles) chips. Even StaSiS has chip tuning that's sold through dealers. Blown japanese cars are very different from German marques. So, yes - there's nothing wrong with flashing your ECU with performance software if it's from a reputable company. Besides, the dealership can't see it 90% of the time with their scan tools, and most chips come with a way to swap live back to stock programming.
135i's and 335i's with the Twin-Turbo V6 PROceed'd (another chip tuner) are putting down ridiculous numbers, like close to 400HP.
They are less efficient inherently. The biggest problem is the long, thin combustion chamber, which gives you several times the surface area to lose heat through. That's combustion energy lost. Then you've got the apex seals, which still leak more than piston rings (as far as I know). The power differential is also much smaller than it used to be (The RENESIS makes ~237 HP, Suzuki's 1340cc lump makes ~194).
That's not to say they aren't cool, because they are.
Anyway, sticking with the OP's list, I'd say the R32 is the best choice.
I have some snake oil I'd like to sell you.
As far as the RX-8 goes, I usually associate oil burning gas guzzlers with 80's Ford Broncos.
Anyways, numbers are great and all, but I'd just go drive the cars if at all possible to make your decision. This is in a completely different league, but that's the reason I settled on my 1994 Thunderbird LX 4.6 over a 1995 Mustang GT with a five-ooo.
You really have no idea what you're talking about.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Followup/articleId=119485
Edmunds reviews a Vishnu tuned 335i. Same engine in the 135i. A simple chip produces +75hp and +114 lb-ft torque.
For what it's worth I have driven a Dinan M3. It's been ten years but it's still the only car I've driven that was too fast. It was frightening, but I'm sure that was more due to the supercharger than any fancy ECU hackery. The previous owner claimed 500(!) horsepower, and after an hour behind the wheel I believed him.
I helped a friend put a new ECU in his WRX (which asploded not long after). I didn't have the heart to tell him that, despite what his laptop said, the car felt pretty much the same. As a counterpoint, the guy that chipped his RX7 did end up with a much faster car for about a thousand miles. In the end it blew the engine so hard it dented the hood in several places.
What are your plans in that respect?
Also did anyone suggest the 2008 Lancer Evo? Looks mean as hell.
When you refer to Suzukis 1340 cc "lump", is it a turbocharged engine? Because the renesis is not. Therefore your comparison is null and void. Show me a factory 1.3 litre engine (not motorcycle engines, besides the Hayabusa donk still only make about 165 hp compared to 237 hp for the rotary) that puts out half the power the renesis does and I'll be really shocked.
You Could grab a Used Saleen Supercharger Mustang this year or one year old for under 35 used according to ebay motors. It baffles me how fast ford is making a dive to hell.
The easy way around that is to change the way you drive. Use the brakes less and see what happens to your fuel consumption.
@ "What kind of car?" - I listed the criteria; while performance is #1, daily driver is still #2. I want a great car I can drive to work, or take on decent trips (4+ hours) and not feel fatigued. You'll notice that each car I've chosen has a solid builder's background (STI, R32, even the Bimmer). This car will, over time, be built. If you think it's about "penis size" then gtfo right now.
@ "G8" - Does not meet my criteria for a "clean" but "aggressive" car. Sorry, I recognize it's benchmark and appreciate it, but the car's interior is horrid. If I'm inside the car most of the time it's being driven (and I should hope I am) then the interior should be just as equal a celebration of performance.
@ "G35" - still a very tempting car; I would simply prefer to stay away from something so mainstream (hence, my preference for the performance versions of common cars - R32, Mazdaspeed3, etc)
Cars to be driven: 2008 STI, 2008 R32
Will have one driven this week for sure. That should help clear things up.
I'd still say R32...
...or a used M3 (I know, I know)...;)
When you drive the STi and the R32 for comparison, think really hard about which one you want to be in on a daily basis or when stuck in traffic. A friend of mine that bought an Evo didn't. He has a special hatred for Miami traffic.
If you look around carefully enough you can probably find them in the 35k range. Dealers often have trouble selling them since many people can't really justify a two-seater hardtop sports car, so expect some big discounts. This is also basically an M3 in disguise, but its been improved and is actually better than the M3 (not the new V8 M3)
There are plenty of people use this car as their daily driver, because its incredibly fun to drive. If you would drive an M3 on a daily basis you can definitely handle this on a daily basis. It has a large boot, certainly enough to carry groceries comfortably and golf bags. If you don't have kids or don't taxi lots of people around two seats is enough. It's aggressive, the interior is clean and minimalistic, no bullshit ricer crap like other cars or shitloads of buttons. Its also an incredibly rare car. If you go here you can see they only made 5,895 of them in 2007, and in 2008 they have so far only made 1,021. And they expect 2008 to be the last year they make them, with the upcoming new version Z4 debutting in 2009.
The ride however may not be the most comfortable because the engine can get loud and you will feel every wrinkle in the road, but some people like that. It IS a sports car.
Maybe not what you're looking for in the end, but I'll take any excuse to bullshit about cars.
He isn't looking for used M3's though. That and Z4 M Coupe's are not plentiful, so, used they still require quite a bit of money and new is way out of budget. On a side note, the steering wheel is so fat I don't know if the average human can actually grasp it.
Also, I forgot one point made: thrashing. What I mean is "driven hard" and most likely, yes, the previous owner drove the piss out of it. A M3, as we all know, is a performance car. It is meant to go fast. I know what my mistakes are; I don't know the mistakes OTHER drivers have made. Carfax only tells you so much.
So yeah, I don't want a car that has been "thrashed" by a previous owner for 5 years. I'd rather have one that I've "thrashed" for 5 years.
@ "Z4 Coupe M" - Sexy, yes, but two-seater doesn't really fit the utility of what I'll need. Like I said previously, I would like to be able to get my dog in the backseat if I lack access to my beater. 2+2 is more than 2+0
I don't know about you, but when I get into a car for the first time I touch everything. Every knob, every switch, the action of the glovebox, action of the windows, everything. Build quality, texture of plastics, interior noise between the Subaru and the VW should be more than a little noticeable. 6 years down the line and 95,000 + miles later I can't say I regret my decision to buy a VW. And it has been driven.
The M3 thing...that's just where I am going. It's a massive commitment. Every one of them out there will have been driven hard, that's just part of the deal. Now, if it has a service history and has been maintained to the letter it will be fine, I will just have to continue that as it's driven. It's really just a different car buying experience to buy something like that. It is a very special car at the end of the day and as such requires special care. Two of my best friends have each recently bought one and I have had a lot of wheel time to say the least. Really quite amazing.
If "be built" is modern parlance for "bolt a bunch of shit onto the engine", then you can discount the R32. It's already pushing the limit of what the transmission can handle.
Also, lol if you try to drive the STi on a 4 hour road trip. You'll shake yourself to pieces. Really, man, you have to decide what kind of car you want and how much you're really willing to spend. You're all over the place here.
The new STi is a lot "softer" than the previous one from what I've read, but the interior was most unpleasant in the one I sat in at an auto show.
It's made for and by Grey Plastic People from the Grey Plastic Planet. Seriously, the only bigger affront to the senses are Pontiacs back in GM's "let's throw some plastic cladding on it!" years.