Her time on the team would be short-lived, as one day Ms. Marvel woke to find herself pregnant after blacking out while piloting a Quinjet. The original plan was for the pregnancy, of which Ms. Marvel soon found herself ready to give birth after only a couple of days of being pregnant, was for Ms. Marvel to have been kidnapped and used for Skrull breeding experiments, in order to create a new race of beings similar to the Supreme Intelligence. But editor-in-chief Jim Shooter vetoed the storyline, citing that a similar storyline (conceived without series writer David Michiline's knowledge) in the pages of "What If?" (#20, "What if the Avengers Lost the Kree-Skrull War"?) had already done the plotline of a baby version of the Supreme Intelligence and refused to allow Michiline to continue with the storyline.
So "Avengers #200" was rewritten, to feature a new ending to the storyline and to send Ms. Marvel out of the series, since Michiline no longer wanted to use her since his planned storyline for the character was vetoed. Carol's baby was a healthy black haired boy, who quickly grew to adulthood as the barriers between the past and future within New York City began to collapse, bringing dinosaurs, medival knights, and futuristic technology into the city. The child, calling himself Marcus, revealed that he was the forgotten son of Immortus, stranded in Limbo due to him being born in the otherly dimension. He had kidnapped Carol and over the course of several days and use of hypnotic suggestion based powers, romanced Carol into making love to him via a series of romantic themed scenerios based upon pre-French Revolution Paris. Carol ultimately consented and in the act of passion, Carol became pregnant with a child who was Marcus, having transferred his mind and life essence inside of Carol's womb, then returning her home to give birth to Marcus, freeing him from Limbo.
By this point though, Marcus realized that his pressence inside the timestream was the true cause of the onslaught of temporal anomolies threatening Earth. Creating a device to send himself back to Limbo, Carol shocked her teammates with her proclamation to join Marcus, having suddenly fallen madly in love with the man. Despite her teammate Hawkeye's strong objections towards this move, the Avengers stood back as Carol and Marcus left Earth.
The story itself became a lightning rod of controversy, with many fans believing that Carol's relationship with Marcus amounted to rape. Feminist and devoted comic book historian Carol A. Strickland harshly criticized the Marcus storyline, with an essay titled "The Rape of Ms. Marvel", that appeared in comics fanzine LOC #1 (1981).
Chris Claremont, writer of the Carol's solo title, shared similar views on the subject of the Carol/Marcus relationship, as far as the fact that he saw the relationship as rape via mind control.[5] As such, Claremont deamnded to Marvel's editorial staff that he be allowed to address the injustice that had happened to the character, who Claremont had taken and shaped from supporting cast member to the level of being a full-fledged super-hero.
Avengers Annual #10, which was Carol's first appearance since Avengers #200, featured Carol Danvers angrily lashing out against her teammates over their decision to take Carol at her word that she had fallen in love with Marcus. Carol proclaimed that not only had Marcus used hypnotic powers to make her have sex with him, but also used said power to force her to leave Earth and spend the rest of her life with her rapist. Ironically, Carol reveals that Marcus's scheme to escape Limbo ultimately proved fatal towards him, as his new body rapidly began to age once the two returned to Limbo, killing him and reducing his remains to dust. Only when Marcus died, did Carol regain her own free will, as the realization of what Marcus did to her (forcing her to have sex with him) and how the Avengers had fallen for his lies and manipulation of her, allowing him to effectively kidnap Carol for future defilement at his hands.
seriously, if there was never another comics storyline that used rape as a clumsy motivating force for a female hero, i'd be totally fine.
I recall a former DC employee (no clue who) mentioning that for a long time, nine out of every ten pitches for Wonder Woman involved some variation of Wonder Woman getting raped. Which is why I tend to role my eyes any time a writer uses rape in a story; it's usually just a really transparent attempt to add depth to a character without working for it.
Hence why I said, "usually." But, when was the last time you read a rape story in a superhero comic and thought, "Oh wow, how profound." I can't think of one that didn't feel totally unnecessary, or read like the author's weird, eroticized fantasy.
Hence why I said, "usually." But, when was the last time you read a rape story in a superhero comic and thought, "Oh wow, how profound." I can't think of one that didn't feel totally unnecessary, or read like the author's weird, eroticized fantasy.
well, red sonja is like the epitome of like, hey why is conan the barbarian badass? because he was born the most rightous motherfucker and kept kicking ass
why is girl version so badass? she got raped so she prayed to a goddess for the skills of murder
jessica jones it basically breaks her and turns her into a self-destructive alcoholic struggling with her sense of identity.
plus it makes purple man out to be the worst person in the marvel universe. i mean, even the red skull is like haha hey it's a nazi with a skull head. it'll be hilarious when we break his jaw and blow up his airplanes. purple man is just plain rotten to the core.
Hence why I said, "usually." But, when was the last time you read a rape story in a superhero comic and thought, "Oh wow, how profound." I can't think of one that didn't feel totally unnecessary, or read like the author's weird, eroticized fantasy.
Jessica Jones
Was that plot point planned from the start, or no?
Hence why I said, "usually." But, when was the last time you read a rape story in a superhero comic and thought, "Oh wow, how profound." I can't think of one that didn't feel totally unnecessary, or read like the author's weird, eroticized fantasy.
Jessica Jones
Was that plot point planned from the start, or no?
Hence why I said, "usually." But, when was the last time you read a rape story in a superhero comic and thought, "Oh wow, how profound." I can't think of one that didn't feel totally unnecessary, or read like the author's weird, eroticized fantasy.
Jessica Jones
Was that plot point planned from the start, or no?
she starts out at the bottom of the barrel and you slowly find out why over the course of the series "alias" which you should read
I did forget about her, but in all fairness she wasn't really raped in the conventional sense of the word. But yeah, Bendis did build her character around that experience, and continued to play with it through some of his other work involving Jessica and Luke Cage, so points for that I suppose.
I did forget about her, but in all fairness she wasn't really raped in the conventional sense of the word. But yeah, Bendis did build her character around that experience, and continued to play with it through some of his other work involving Jessica and Luke Cage, so points for that I suppose.
no she was raped. i don't think you can really argue that she was violated in a profound and upsetting way
well, red sonja is like the epitome of like, hey why is conan the barbarian badass? because he was born the most rightous motherfucker and kept kicking ass
why is girl version so badass? she got raped so she prayed to a goddess for the skills of murder
jessica jones it basically breaks her and turns her into a self-destructive alcoholic struggling with her sense of identity.
plus it makes purple man out to be the worst person in the marvel universe. i mean, even the red skull is like haha hey it's a nazi with a skull head. it'll be hilarious when we break his jaw and blow up his airplanes. purple man is just plain rotten to the core.
Well I mean the rape isn't really the point of the story, it's her to struggle to reclaim her life thats compelling. I'm just saying that it's an example of a superhero story that uses rape in a way thats not sensationalist or as a cheap shock tactic.
I did forget about her, but in all fairness she wasn't really raped in the conventional sense of the word. But yeah, Bendis did build her character around that experience, and continued to play with it through some of his other work involving Jessica and Luke Cage, so points for that I suppose.
no she was raped. i don't think you can really argue that she was violated in a profound and upsetting way
it's pretty easy to argue that rape is not even a strong enough word for what was done to her.
1. The crime of forcing another person to submit to sex acts, especially sexual intercourse.
2. The act of seizing and carrying off by force; abduction.
3. Abusive or improper treatment; violation
Like I said, in the most conventional and accepted sense of the word, she wasn't, but I'm certainly not going to argue that what happened to her doesn't fall under definitions two and three.
I didn't even go back and read the rest of the thread until just now
Goddammit people
I wish I could get paid to stab people in the face.
You really have to marvel at the leap of logic that goes from "God, I'd love to write about someone surviving Soviet-era Lubyanka Prison" to a reference to the mental abortion of a Spider-Man story written by the fourth biggest hack in the world.
1. The crime of forcing another person to submit to sex acts, especially sexual intercourse.
2. The act of seizing and carrying off by force; abduction.
3. Abusive or improper treatment; violation
Like I said, in the most conventional and accepted sense of the word, she wasn't, but I'm certainly not going to argue that what happened to her doesn't fall under definitions two and three.
I'm pretty sure it was implied that in addition to just like keeping her in a room or whatever he fucked her too
I thought the whole mental torture aspect hinged on him making her feel broken down and helpless by making her want to have sex with him, but then denying her while raping other women in front of her. I haven't read it in a long time either, but that's my recollection.
I thought the thing was he forced her to enjoy being raped
That's a real baffling concept there: is it different to convince someone to have sex with you if you use (a) your words to convince them, vs. (b) your brain to telepathically convince them?
It's an odd philosophical point, if you think about it. After all, the entire concept of seduction in the real world is based on the idea that by presenting the right information to the target's brain (speech, activities, etc.) you'll cause that target's brain to desire you. Is it actually different to directly change the brain, especially if the subject is unaware of the change?
I suspect there's not an easy answer there (that it's one of those "superpowers changes the rules" things, because the nature of the human mind is different in a world with powers).
/As a real world analog: let's say you're in a car accident, and solely due to that accident you incur brain damage that causes you to fall in love with the driver of the other car. Is it rape for him to sleep with you? What if he knew it would cause that?
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Not her finest moment
i mean when i say rounded
i think you know
what i mean
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Oh I know what you mean servo
I know well
I recall a former DC employee (no clue who) mentioning that for a long time, nine out of every ten pitches for Wonder Woman involved some variation of Wonder Woman getting raped. Which is why I tend to role my eyes any time a writer uses rape in a story; it's usually just a really transparent attempt to add depth to a character without working for it.
See also: Web comics.
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i'll say red sonja instead
I was not being sarcastic.
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
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Jessica Jones
why is girl version so badass? she got raped so she prayed to a goddess for the skills of murder
jessica jones it basically breaks her and turns her into a self-destructive alcoholic struggling with her sense of identity.
Was that plot point planned from the start, or no?
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
yes
she starts out at the bottom of the barrel and you slowly find out why over the course of the series "alias" which you should read
I did forget about her, but in all fairness she wasn't really raped in the conventional sense of the word. But yeah, Bendis did build her character around that experience, and continued to play with it through some of his other work involving Jessica and Luke Cage, so points for that I suppose.
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no she was raped. i don't think you can really argue that she was violated in a profound and upsetting way
Well I mean the rape isn't really the point of the story, it's her to struggle to reclaim her life thats compelling. I'm just saying that it's an example of a superhero story that uses rape in a way thats not sensationalist or as a cheap shock tactic.
come on
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
it's pretty easy to argue that rape is not even a strong enough word for what was done to her.
and I was agreeing back!
Like I said, in the most conventional and accepted sense of the word, she wasn't, but I'm certainly not going to argue that what happened to her doesn't fall under definitions two and three.
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Especially Robos.
Second fun fact: Excepting Nick Fury, all of Marvel's major espionage characters are women.
Quite the comment taken with the rest of this page.
Goddammit people
Also Ghost Rider looks to be pure sex
Also, on the cover at least, Iron Fist looks to be in the new costume, judging by the yellow dragon on his chest
I wish I could get paid to stab people in the face.
You really have to marvel at the leap of logic that goes from "God, I'd love to write about someone surviving Soviet-era Lubyanka Prison" to a reference to the mental abortion of a Spider-Man story written by the fourth biggest hack in the world.
I'm pretty sure it was implied that in addition to just like keeping her in a room or whatever he fucked her too
I don't know
it's been a while
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That's a real baffling concept there: is it different to convince someone to have sex with you if you use (a) your words to convince them, vs. (b) your brain to telepathically convince them?
It's an odd philosophical point, if you think about it. After all, the entire concept of seduction in the real world is based on the idea that by presenting the right information to the target's brain (speech, activities, etc.) you'll cause that target's brain to desire you. Is it actually different to directly change the brain, especially if the subject is unaware of the change?
I suspect there's not an easy answer there (that it's one of those "superpowers changes the rules" things, because the nature of the human mind is different in a world with powers).
/As a real world analog: let's say you're in a car accident, and solely due to that accident you incur brain damage that causes you to fall in love with the driver of the other car. Is it rape for him to sleep with you? What if he knew it would cause that?