Well, assuming ret is less dps. I guess it tops out earlier?
Ret Pallies aren't weak. Our token ret pally back in the Mount Hyjal days was consistently putting out 1100+ single target DPS. And considering what else he brought the raid (Imp. Might/3% Crit Chance/Judgments), he was pretty much invaluable.
EDIT: I should mention, we are an alliance guild, and Belf Ret Pallies are capable of quite a bit more DPS.
And in response to both this argument, and the one regarding warriors. This is somewhere in BT, I think. I'm not 100% sure.
Warrior in first. Ret Pally second. Enh Shaman third. (Then Cat Drood, Rogue, MS/BF Warrior)
So what this screenshot is saying is, that guild has no good rogues/warlocks/hunters?
That or it's some fight in BT that specifically hoses primary dps classes. I'm not that familiar with BT.
It's not that warriors can't do good dps, it's just that they face some major barriers to being competitive. Like threat, for example.
Well, assuming ret is less dps. I guess it tops out earlier?
Ret Pallies aren't weak. Our token ret pally back in the Mount Hyjal days was consistently putting out 1100+ single target DPS. And considering what else he brought the raid (Imp. Might/3% Crit Chance/Judgments), he was pretty much invaluable.
EDIT: I should mention, we are an alliance guild, and Belf Ret Pallies are capable of quite a bit more DPS.
And in response to both this argument, and the one regarding warriors. This is somewhere in BT, I think. I'm not 100% sure.
Warrior in first. Ret Pally second. Enh Shaman third. (Then Cat Drood, Rogue, MS/BF Warrior)
So what this screenshot is saying is, that guild has no good rogues/warlocks/hunters?
That or it's some fight in BT that specifically hoses primary dps classes. I'm not that familiar with BT.
It's not that warriors can't do good dps, it's just that they face some major barriers to being competitive. Like threat, for example.
I miss pre-bc fury. It was so broken :-/
Well, we had outstanding tanks. We had good players. Justify it however you like. This warrior was damn good. I was our lead hunter while I raided with the guild, and I was pretty much always second to Remiel. Sometimes just barely, other times by a fair margin. I could beat him on certain fights, but he was normally #1.
Furthermore, if you're riding the tank's threat with 50% Threat Reduction, I guarantee you are being competitive.
BTW, I also get irritated when a non 'pure dps' class person plays so well they beat someone else, but only because that rogue/mage/hunter/whatever is obviously very crappy and that somehow negates what the offspec player has done.
BTW, I also get irritated when a non 'pure dps' class person plays so well they beat someone else, but only because that rogue/mage/hunter/whatever is obviously very crappy and that somehow negates what the offspec player has done.
I... I don't know if you're talking about the same thing. Are you saying Fury is not a 'pure dps' class? I can't imagine what it would be, if not.
Some Guy:
Hey guys, this ret pally/fury war/enhance shaman did X dps on this fight.
Response:
Wow, your rogues must suck ass.
Just talking about in general here. That kind of thinking is pretty irritating and dismissive.
Bigity on
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Nova_CI have the needThe need for speedRegistered Userregular
edited August 2008
Yeah. It makes the assumption that the only way a hybrid could be competitive is if their competition sucked, ergo, hybrids suck. Which is the kind of thing I was railing against earlier. :P
Some Guy:
Hey guys, this ret pally/fury war/enhance shaman did X dps on this fight.
Response:
Wow, your rogues must suck ass.
Just talking about in general here. That kind of thinking is pretty irritating and dismissive.
Oh, I see what you're saying. Understood, and agreed.
CNC, So... the only classes that should be able to do good DPS are Rogues/Hunters/Mages/Warlocks?
I mean, sure, Warriors have the ability to tank. But a warrior that's 50 points into Fury is no longer a viable raid tank. So... you throw all of your tanking ability out the window to focus on doing massive damage. Sounds okay to me. It's not like they are going to throw on a shield and tank Tidewalker if the MT drops.
And no matter which way you slice it, 2100 DPS in early BT is pretty impressive for any class. There were maybe 3 people in that entire raid with one piece of T6 (gloves). This wasn't a screenshot taken on our 100th clear of BT. This was when we were first getting in there. I know that because we only did BT maybe 5 times before the guild imploded.
BTW, I also get irritated when a non 'pure dps' class person plays so well they beat someone else, but only because that rogue/mage/hunter/whatever is obviously very crappy and that somehow negates what the offspec player has done.
It doesn't. The warrior performed very well. Having raided as a fury warrior pre-bc, I assure you that I appreciate what he's doing in that screenshot. I'd show you some of mine, but I let my ftp server go offline.
I have no trouble believing that fury warriors, ret paladins, enhancement/elemental shamans, cat/balance druids etc can top meters. However, this is mostly anecdotal; WWS scoreboard (reliable metric that it is, cough) generally doesn't rank these classes very high (and yes, I'm familiar with the limitations of WWS scoreboard). You also don't seem them very high in WWS records set by the top guilds. So while there probably are fury warriors who perform exceptionally well within their specific guilds, I would tend to regard these as outliers.
Given that I know nothing about the guild in the screenshot and based purely on overall statistics, I'm more inclined to say that the warlocks/mages/rogues/hunters in the shot were underperforming than that the fury war, enhancement shaman, retadin, and kitty were simply awesome. The fact that the #2 DPSer was 700 dps behind the warrior and the hunter wasn't even in the top 10 lends support to that idea (that, or he died).
Again, knowing nothing about the specific guild, I can only speculate on what happened based on the screenshot and general DPS performance of various classes. My initial response was probably a bit oversimplified; the answer is probably somewhere in between "he was awesome" and "they were just awful."
BTW, I also get irritated when a non 'pure dps' class person plays so well they beat someone else, but only because that rogue/mage/hunter/whatever is obviously very crappy and that somehow negates what the offspec player has done.
It doesn't. The warrior performed very well. Having raided as a fury warrior pre-bc, I assure you that I appreciate what he's doing in that screenshot. I'd show you some of mine, but I let my ftp server go offline.
I have no trouble believing that fury warriors, ret paladins, enhancement/elemental shamans, cat/balance druids etc can top meters. However, this is mostly anecdotal; WWS scoreboard (reliable metric that it is, cough) generally doesn't rank these specs very high. You also don't seem them very high in WWS records set by the top guilds. So while there probably are fury warriors who perform exceptionally well within their specific guilds, I would generally regard these as outliers.
Given that I know nothing about the guild in the screenshot and based purely on overall statistics, I'm more inclined to say that the warlocks/mages/rogues/hunters in the shot were underperforming than that the fury war, enhancement shaman, retadin, and kitty were simply awesome. The fact that the #2 DPSer was 700 dps behind the warrior and the hunter wasn't even in the top 10 lends support to that idea (that, or he died).
Again, knowing nothing about the specific guild, I can only speculate on what happened based on the screenshot and general DPS performance of various classes.
There was no hunter there. At the end, I was the only hunter, and I stopped raiding before that screenshot was taken. I'll admit, I felt our rogues were pretty subpar. But, you can't fuck up spamming a fucking shadowbolt over and over. We went through many different players, of every class, and he beat them all. But, the argument is over. I could post a screenshot of him doing 5 Trillion DPS on Brutallus, and someone would be able to explain it away as a small accomplishment.
So... the only classes that should be able to do good DPS are Rogues/Hunters/Mages/Warlocks?
Yes.
If the 'hybrid' classes do equal dps and bring more to the table, you negate the need for non-hybrid classes, aside from gimmick fights or abilities.
Of note; thus far Blizzard has (imo) an excellent job of balancing this. There are fights that favour ranged, melee, specific classes, whatever, but on average things seem to be pretty balanced.
You'll have people who break the mold due to skill and/or gear, or who have competition that lack skill and/or gear and so they stand out, but overall I'd say we've achieved an appropriate balance.
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
There was no hunter there. At the end, I was the only hunter, and I stopped raiding before that screenshot was taken. I'll admit, I felt our rogues were pretty subpar. But, you can't fuck up spamming a fucking shadowbolt over and over. We went through many different players, of every class, and he beat them all. But, the argument is over. I could post a screenshot of him doing 5 Trillion DPS on Brutallus, and someone would be able to explain it away as a small accomplishment.
I mean, I can see a hunter on grid in the picture.
Anyway, my "the x y z classes must be terrible" was based less on the fact that a warrior was #1 and more on the fact that nobody else was anywhere near him.
I was just clarifying what was said. I actually have mixed feelings on hybrid dps. I don't think that a dps spec of a hybrid class should be "penalized" for the fact that they could tank or heal on a different day. If they're bringing significant utility to the raid, that's a different story.
On the other hand, as a hunter, I kind of do want them penalized just a little. That's probably silly of me though.
I mean, I can see a hunter on grid in the picture.
Oh. I didn't realize Anchor was there. He normally did well enough, but he hit 70 maybe two weeks before we entered BT. His gear was... pretty bad.
EDIT: @cnc - The only time I have a problem with it is with druids. Being able to switch out only gear, and be competitive on DPS frustrates me, since I can't heal, or tank, regardless of my gear (as a Hunter). Sounds like they plan on addressing this in WOTLK.
I was just clarifying what was said. I actually have mixed feelings on hybrid dps. I don't think that a dps spec of a hybrid class should be "penalized" for the fact that they could tank or heal on a different day. If they're bringing significant utility to the raid, that's a different story.
On the other hand, as a hunter, I kind of do want them penalized just a little. That's probably silly of me though.
That's not what Forar was saying. Ret pallies bring +10% holy damage, +2% all damage to their party (Soon to be raid), plus another almost 300 atk power with BoM for any physical damage classes in the raid. Also, Imp JotC increases everyone's crit chance on the target by 3%. If ret pallies ALSO topped damage meters along with rogues and warlocks, it would make the ret pally more desirable than the other classes because you get those bonuses without the accompanying drop in dps.
You also have to remember that the rallying point behind all these buffs are those who parse through entire fights and nitpick every last detail of damage done, and then calculate out how their addtional crit or enhanced damage bonus took their 1000 dps up to 3700 by adding in to their own numbers the proportionate amount of damage they added to everyone else.
Which is all good and fine, but at the end of the day, you do need people who push out some fairly absurd numbers on their own to make full use of those bonuses.
It's a very symbiotic relationship. Without the buffs (imp WF, BoM, BS, LOTP, hunter buffs, Bloodlust/Heroism, etc) you wouldn't see pure dps classes hitting 3k+ dps sustained.
However, without pure dps classes doing 1.5-2k+ dps innately, all those buffs together wouldn't be enough to overcome many of the nastier timers, enrages (berzerks/frenzies, whatever) or other dps race related fights that Blizzard has taken a shine to.
Hell, a couple of top notch dps (along with good tanks and healers, of course) can just plain out make a run go faster, and who doesn't want to be out of some farmed hellhole half an hour earlier? (by speeding up kills or making kills fast enough that the length of the fight is short enough to avoid more of the mistakes that can be made).
As a personal example, the common theorycrafting is that 2 rogues and an Enhancement Shaman bring more dps to a raid than 3 rogues, which is great! However, if the enhancement shaman did equal damage to the rogues, well then why bring rogues? Shaman can interrupt, just like rogues, but also have a number of valuable buffs, can heal in a pinch, self rez once per hour, etc.
It's a hard balance to maintain across all class and spec compositions, particularly in large raids, but when it all fits together like the pieces of a puzzle, the final picture is worth more than the sum of its parts.
This is a design philosophy I can completely agree with.
Even when it does lead to moments of frustration when you have to replace your third fucking Enhancement Shaman. I swear, they get geared and then go on extended leaves like clockwork. >.<
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
Well, in your shaman vs. rogue example, Blizzard would say (but perhaps not implement?) we either need to nerf enhancement shaman damage output, or give rogues more utility (lol?).
Blizzard's been saying that a lot lately, that the whole balancing act is mostly a utility vs. damage output with other classes.
End on
I wish that someway, somehow, that I could save every one of us
I've been out of WoW since TBC hit, and although I was in KoA, I never did any high end PvE stuff. But the stuff I see from the beta forums on WotLK makes me want to go back in. The deal for me has always been PvP. But more than that I want to log in and have fun.
When I play Halo 3, or any other multiplayer game, I don't have to worry about balance. I know I'm better with certain weapons, and what weapon to use in the appropriate situation. I play to my strengths and minimize my weaknesses. I want to be able to do the same thing in WoW, or any other MMORPG that I play. I've only really played a paladin, so that's what I'll comment on.
When WoW started, you could play a paladin of any spec, and still be a viable tank/healer/group or solo pvper. Yeah certain talents helped out, but I could log on and do whatever I felt like doing that day. I don't see that as a bad thing at all. Sure, when you're talking about end-game raiding, people who specialize in that sort of thing want to know that what they bring to the table is the best they can bring. But that shouldn't gimp them in all other arenas of play. If I'm optimized to pve tank, I shouldn't also be the best healer and pvper, but I should be able to do that if I want to. There's a difference between being able to jump into something and do reasonably well at it, and be the best there is at it. I think that's what hybrids need to do. During TBC, it seemed like hybrids were forced to pick one portion of their repertoire and overspecialize just to be decent at it. If you have a sub-par hybrid like that, then what's the point of playing one? Who gets enjoyment out of playing a hybrid that's alright at one thing and terrible at everything else?
Sure, if I'm playing a rogue, and I see that a Ret paladin is doing everything that I can do better, and also have the ability to heal and tank well, I'd get upset. But the real deal is that a Ret paladin doesn't do everything a rogue does. Rogues have control, they have aggro reset buttons, they've got the ability to pick their fights in world pvp. Rogues, Hunters, and Warlocks may only be able to do the 'dps role' in pve, but they all bring a lot more to the table then just straight DPS, and they also have plenty of pvp tricks.
In essence, if WoW wants to be the best thing for all types of gamers, they need to have a kind of class balance that allows for specialization without handicapping other aspects of the class. And really, who honestly thinks that they would have more fun in a game that penalizes you for playing more than a single aspect of it.
Rogues, Hunters, and Warlocks may only be able to do the 'dps role' in pve, but they all bring a lot more to the table then just straight DPS
Rogues bring little to the table other than straight up DPS. Distract, maybe, I guess. I know, I'm nitpicking. I would love for Rogues to bring some sort of buff, though. Like, a poison that increases damage taken from all attackers.
When WoW started, you could play a paladin of any spec, and still be a viable tank/healer/group or solo pvper. Yeah certain talents helped out, but I could log on and do whatever I felt like doing that day. I don't see that as a bad thing at all. Sure, when you're talking about end-game raiding, people who specialize in that sort of thing want to know that what they bring to the table is the best they can bring. But that shouldn't gimp them in all other arenas of play. If I'm optimized to pve tank, I shouldn't also be the best healer and pvper, but I should be able to do that if I want to. There's a difference between being able to jump into something and do reasonably well at it, and be the best there is at it. I think that's what hybrids need to do. During TBC, it seemed like hybrids were forced to pick one portion of their repertoire and overspecialize just to be decent at it. If you have a sub-par hybrid like that, then what's the point of playing one? Who gets enjoyment out of playing a hybrid that's alright at one thing and terrible at everything else?
*snip*
In essence, if WoW wants to be the best thing for all types of gamers, they need to have a kind of class balance that allows for specialization without handicapping other aspects of the class. And really, who honestly thinks that they would have more fun in a game that penalizes you for playing more than a single aspect of it.
The problem is that balancing hybrids with "pure" classes is a nightmare. The "jack of all trades, master of none" philosophy that has historically been ascribed to these classes in games just does not fly in a min/maxing raid environment. If a paladin cannot tank as well as a warrior, then having a paladin tank in your raid is inefficient. If a paladin can tank as well as a warrior, then to a point it doesn't make sense to bring a warrior tank because the paladin can also buff people as well as heal while not tanking (though arguably not very well).
Balancing between "too good" and "not good enough" just gets way more complicated when hybrids are involved.
Wound poison and mind-numbing poison. Also Hemo. Also sap and blind
I'm talking raids. Sorry, should have clarified that. On raid bosses, none of those poisons have any effect whatsoever. Also, Hemo Specced rogues don't really belong in raids.
Wound poison and mind-numbing poison. Also Hemo. Also sap and blind
I'm talking raids. Sorry, should have clarified that. On raid bosses, none of those poisons have any effect whatsoever. Also, Hemo Specced rogues don't really belong in raids.
I feel like I saw a hemo specced rogue on the first KJ kill.
Not to say Sub is an optimal raid spec by any means, just saying I've seen it at the high end.
Wound poison and mind-numbing poison. Also Hemo. Also sap and blind
I'm talking raids. Sorry, should have clarified that. On raid bosses, none of those poisons have any effect whatsoever. Also, Hemo Specced rogues don't really belong in raids.
I feel like I saw a hemo specced rogue on the first KJ kill.
Not to say Sub is an optimal raid spec by any means, just saying I've seen it at the high end.
Heh, I just came in to edit my post. I shouldn't say they don't belong, just that they aren't very Widespread. Also, I'm shocked to find that a Hemo Rogue was in for KJ. I mean, I don't think 10 charges of Hemo (per Hemo) make up for the lost DPS from missed Combat/Assassination Talents.
Wound poison and mind-numbing poison. Also Hemo. Also sap and blind
I'm talking raids. Sorry, should have clarified that. On raid bosses, none of those poisons have any effect whatsoever. Also, Hemo Specced rogues don't really belong in raids.
I feel like I saw a hemo specced rogue on the first KJ kill.
Not to say Sub is an optimal raid spec by any means, just saying I've seen it at the high end.
Heh, I just came in to edit my post. I shouldn't say they don't belong, just that they aren't very Widespread. Also, I'm shocked to find that a Hemo Rogue was in for KJ. I mean, I don't think 10 charges of Hemo (per Hemo) make up for the lost DPS from missed Combat/Assassination Talents.
No, they don't belong.
I mean, if shit is on farm and you aren't worried about maximizing DPS, then fine I guess. But yeah, no Rogue should be specced hemo for any kind of progression raiding.
During TBC, it seemed like hybrids were forced to pick one portion of their repertoire and overspecialize just to be decent at it. If you have a sub-par hybrid like that, then what's the point of playing one? Who gets enjoyment out of playing a hybrid that's alright at one thing and terrible at everything else?
and before TBC, all the hybrids did in PvE (and most of the time in PvP) was heal. Nowadays, pretty much all the hybrid specs are good for something.
On top of that, it's also an effect of adding more talent tiers every expansion. You enforce specialization. I don't think this is a bad thing.
Our rogues use wounding poison on anetheron when we don't have a DPS warrior.
And kicking is very helpful on the necromancers and banshees.
And sap is crucial to the big pull before Najentus.
Rogues bring a few utility stuff to raids. But considering how massive their dps is they don't even really need them.
I wasn't talking interrupts or anything like that. More along the lines of buffs. Also, I don't remember any pull in any 25-man where sap was necessary. Kick? Earthshock/Pummel. Sap? Trap. Everything a rogue can do as far as utility can be handled by another class. A class that brings buffs.
Our rogues use wounding poison on anetheron when we don't have a DPS warrior.
And kicking is very helpful on the necromancers and banshees.
And sap is crucial to the big pull before Najentus.
Rogues bring a few utility stuff to raids. But considering how massive their dps is they don't even really need them.
I wasn't talking interrupts or anything like that. More along the lines of buffs. Also, I don't remember any pull in any 25-man where sap was necessary. Kick? Earthshock/Pummel. Sap? Trap. Everything a rogue can do as far as utility can be handled by another class. A class that brings buffs.
I think it's that we usually have piss-poor attendance from our hunters and mages. I'm talking about the pull before Najentus that has the two turtles. We hafta sap two of the naga and pull the big guys down the ramp while the turtles are sheeped.
So... the only classes that should be able to do good DPS are Rogues/Hunters/Mages/Warlocks?
Yes.
If the 'hybrid' classes do equal dps and bring more to the table, you negate the need for non-hybrid classes, aside from gimmick fights or abilities.
Of note; thus far Blizzard has (imo) an excellent job of balancing this. There are fights that favour ranged, melee, specific classes, whatever, but on average things seem to be pretty balanced.
You'll have people who break the mold due to skill and/or gear, or who have competition that lack skill and/or gear and so they stand out, but overall I'd say we've achieved an appropriate balance.
I agree with the idea here, but just nitpicky with the exact wording.
Yes, hybrid dpsers should go 'good' damage, if they are skilled. Should an equally geared and skilled pure dps class do more dps by design? Absolutely. Should both be roughly par when taking into account utility? Yes.
But I was responding more to the concept out there on the servers that anytime you see a hybrid doing good DPS, it's because some pure DPS is slacking off. I play a druid, a paladin, a shaman, and have just started a priest. I guess I get a little antsy when it seems the general WoW population is unable to recognize when a utility class is busting butt and bringing good DPS.
That's not what Forar was saying. Ret pallies bring +10% holy damage, +2% all damage to their party (Soon to be raid), plus another almost 300 atk power with BoM for any physical damage classes in the raid. Also, Imp JotC increases everyone's crit chance on the target by 3%. If ret pallies ALSO topped damage meters along with rogues and warlocks, it would make the ret pally more desirable than the other classes because you get those bonuses without the accompanying drop in dps.
Maybe I wasn't responding to Forar...
Anyway, my point is that, I think, we all agree that a class/spec that brings buffs, utility, etc, CANNOT have the same dps potential as a class/spec that does not, or, quite literally, the second class/spec would never find a raid again (unless he had non-optimal friends/guildies, and who wants those?). What I'm concerned with is, what if my class could do something else... if I respec. Does that mean that I also can't do the same dps as a "pure dps"? I want to argue no...
Maybe a guild would only accept hybrids in that situation because of the need for different setups on different fights, etc. But I'm thinking that at that point, if you have a world class dps that shows up every night, you're not really going to care that you can't have them respec holy. They'll still get their spot.
Also, with regard to using PvP utility to justify making a class suck more at raiding, Fuck That Noise.
Wound poison and mind-numbing poison. Also Hemo. Also sap and blind
You're so cute.
But seriously, I'll barely give you poisons (I often volunteer to be the poison bitch, but that just involves wound if we lack an MS warrior, and MN for one or two bosses).
Keep in mind that balance is hardest to achieve (and most heavily sought after) for raids. In the world at large and in five mans, sure I sap, blind and sometimes poison swap away. In raids, we ocassionally make use of distract, but the number of things vulnerable to most of our "utility" features can often be counted on one hand in a given instance.
Then again, I doubt anyone is seriously trying to debate Distract versus AI, Mark, Fort or BS, etc.
Hillarity: you can gouge to interrupt many of the BT trash casters, but cannot kick their spells. You cannot interrupt most Sunwell trash casters that I've fought, but CAN kick some of them. The inconsistancy is baffling at times.
Super edit 2: For the record, I believe ALL 10 classes should be able to do "good" dps in terms of soloing, and be able to spec into an improved level of dps and / or utility for raiding. However, all things being equal (gear, spec, skill, encounter favourtism, etc), I do feel that the 'dps' classes should always out-dps the 'non-dps' classes, even if they are dps spec'd. Not by orders of magnitude necessarily, but by enough of a margin that dps classes remain in demand, just as tanks, healers and off-specs are.
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
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Nova_CI have the needThe need for speedRegistered Userregular
and before TBC, all the hybrids did in PvE (and most of the time in PvP) was heal. Nowadays, pretty much all the hybrid specs are good for something.
This here was probably the single greatest part of TBC.
When raiding before BC, you had warrior tanks. Paladins, priests and druids would heal. Every one else would dps (I guess shaman would heal as well, but I'm Alliance). That was that.
Since TBC you CAN end-game raid with a bear or pally tank, you CAN end-game raid with priest dps. More than anything, Blizzard fixed the pigeon holing as healers all the hybrids got. Frankly, I see WotLK as making it even better. I am excited about WoW for the first time in a long time.
Especially for my Pally. I am LOVING everything I hear.
Healing the party/raid with an attack? Yes, please! :P
EDIT: Apparently, Shockadins are potential pvp gods. I think a 26% base crit rate off talents and stats, and the fact that Holy Light will be an instant after a Holy Shock crit = seriously hard to kill paladins. Oh, lest I forget the 30 yard range on Judgments, the fact that Judging doesn't eat a Seal, SoV is applied every hit and does crazy damage, AND holy pallies get mana back after criting a judgment.
On top of that, it's also an effect of adding more talent tiers every expansion. You enforce specialization. I don't think this is a bad thing.
If you look at the new paladin talents on beta, you'll see an amazing thing: deep in each tree are abilities that synergize (sp?) with the spec's build, but allow it to do the other aspects of the class: Example: Sheathe of Light in the Ret tree which gives you 30% of your AP in spellpower and increases your critical heals. Things like that allow me to spec in a way that's fun for me, and still be able to perform all the functions of my class. I'm not saying that as a Ret pally I want to be the healer or tank in a raid, but I do want to be able to heal or tank in a 5 man if I need to. That's what I did in WoW leveling to 60 the first time. If we didn't have a priest, I would heal, no warrior; I would tank. Was there a druid? We could /rand and pick which we would do. Sure I wasn't the best choice for either role, but I could do it. I tried that again in TBC from 60 to 70, and it just couldn't happen. As a holy spec i could heal but not tank. When I respecced to Ret I couldn't do either.
That's the point that I'm trying to make. There's nothing wrong with specialization so long as I don't lose the ability to perform some aspects of my class by specializing in others. Or, as what happened in TBC: not have the base abilities needed to perform my class' role, and only get those abilities through talents.
Sure, I'm talking about casual stuff. I've never been in a raid: my schedule didn't allow for it when 40 and 20 mans where the rage. I never tried it in TBC because by that time I realized that I just wasn't enjoying playing a paladin. I don't know if raiding is something that casual players do now, but I suspect that it isn't. I know that I'm asking for a tall order here: I want classes that allow for balanced PvP choices (both solo and grouped), hybrids that can perform all roles of their class with the ability to specialize in one aspect (if they wish), and for classes to be equally desirable for raiding content. That is what I need to enjoy playing WoW. I don't think that anyone can fault this idea. I also understand that it doesn't all happen at once, and different players prioritize those three areas based on their playstyle.
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So what this screenshot is saying is, that guild has no good rogues/warlocks/hunters?
That or it's some fight in BT that specifically hoses primary dps classes. I'm not that familiar with BT.
It's not that warriors can't do good dps, it's just that they face some major barriers to being competitive. Like threat, for example.
I miss pre-bc fury. It was so broken :-/
Well, we had outstanding tanks. We had good players. Justify it however you like. This warrior was damn good. I was our lead hunter while I raided with the guild, and I was pretty much always second to Remiel. Sometimes just barely, other times by a fair margin. I could beat him on certain fights, but he was normally #1.
Furthermore, if you're riding the tank's threat with 50% Threat Reduction, I guarantee you are being competitive.
I didn't take the screenshot, or black it out. A guild member posted it for me. I don't know why he blacked it out.
BTW, I also get irritated when a non 'pure dps' class person plays so well they beat someone else, but only because that rogue/mage/hunter/whatever is obviously very crappy and that somehow negates what the offspec player has done.
I... I don't know if you're talking about the same thing. Are you saying Fury is not a 'pure dps' class? I can't imagine what it would be, if not.
Some Guy:
Hey guys, this ret pally/fury war/enhance shaman did X dps on this fight.
Response:
Wow, your rogues must suck ass.
Just talking about in general here. That kind of thinking is pretty irritating and dismissive.
Oh, I see what you're saying. Understood, and agreed.
CNC, So... the only classes that should be able to do good DPS are Rogues/Hunters/Mages/Warlocks?
I mean, sure, Warriors have the ability to tank. But a warrior that's 50 points into Fury is no longer a viable raid tank. So... you throw all of your tanking ability out the window to focus on doing massive damage. Sounds okay to me. It's not like they are going to throw on a shield and tank Tidewalker if the MT drops.
And no matter which way you slice it, 2100 DPS in early BT is pretty impressive for any class. There were maybe 3 people in that entire raid with one piece of T6 (gloves). This wasn't a screenshot taken on our 100th clear of BT. This was when we were first getting in there. I know that because we only did BT maybe 5 times before the guild imploded.
It doesn't. The warrior performed very well. Having raided as a fury warrior pre-bc, I assure you that I appreciate what he's doing in that screenshot. I'd show you some of mine, but I let my ftp server go offline.
I have no trouble believing that fury warriors, ret paladins, enhancement/elemental shamans, cat/balance druids etc can top meters. However, this is mostly anecdotal; WWS scoreboard (reliable metric that it is, cough) generally doesn't rank these classes very high (and yes, I'm familiar with the limitations of WWS scoreboard). You also don't seem them very high in WWS records set by the top guilds. So while there probably are fury warriors who perform exceptionally well within their specific guilds, I would tend to regard these as outliers.
Given that I know nothing about the guild in the screenshot and based purely on overall statistics, I'm more inclined to say that the warlocks/mages/rogues/hunters in the shot were underperforming than that the fury war, enhancement shaman, retadin, and kitty were simply awesome. The fact that the #2 DPSer was 700 dps behind the warrior and the hunter wasn't even in the top 10 lends support to that idea (that, or he died).
Again, knowing nothing about the specific guild, I can only speculate on what happened based on the screenshot and general DPS performance of various classes. My initial response was probably a bit oversimplified; the answer is probably somewhere in between "he was awesome" and "they were just awful."
There was no hunter there. At the end, I was the only hunter, and I stopped raiding before that screenshot was taken. I'll admit, I felt our rogues were pretty subpar. But, you can't fuck up spamming a fucking shadowbolt over and over. We went through many different players, of every class, and he beat them all. But, the argument is over. I could post a screenshot of him doing 5 Trillion DPS on Brutallus, and someone would be able to explain it away as a small accomplishment.
Yes.
If the 'hybrid' classes do equal dps and bring more to the table, you negate the need for non-hybrid classes, aside from gimmick fights or abilities.
Of note; thus far Blizzard has (imo) an excellent job of balancing this. There are fights that favour ranged, melee, specific classes, whatever, but on average things seem to be pretty balanced.
You'll have people who break the mold due to skill and/or gear, or who have competition that lack skill and/or gear and so they stand out, but overall I'd say we've achieved an appropriate balance.
I mean, I can see a hunter on grid in the picture.
Anyway, my "the x y z classes must be terrible" was based less on the fact that a warrior was #1 and more on the fact that nobody else was anywhere near him.
On the other hand, as a hunter, I kind of do want them penalized just a little. That's probably silly of me though.
Oh. I didn't realize Anchor was there. He normally did well enough, but he hit 70 maybe two weeks before we entered BT. His gear was... pretty bad.
EDIT: @cnc - The only time I have a problem with it is with druids. Being able to switch out only gear, and be competitive on DPS frustrates me, since I can't heal, or tank, regardless of my gear (as a Hunter). Sounds like they plan on addressing this in WOTLK.
That's not what Forar was saying. Ret pallies bring +10% holy damage, +2% all damage to their party (Soon to be raid), plus another almost 300 atk power with BoM for any physical damage classes in the raid. Also, Imp JotC increases everyone's crit chance on the target by 3%. If ret pallies ALSO topped damage meters along with rogues and warlocks, it would make the ret pally more desirable than the other classes because you get those bonuses without the accompanying drop in dps.
Which is all good and fine, but at the end of the day, you do need people who push out some fairly absurd numbers on their own to make full use of those bonuses.
It's a very symbiotic relationship. Without the buffs (imp WF, BoM, BS, LOTP, hunter buffs, Bloodlust/Heroism, etc) you wouldn't see pure dps classes hitting 3k+ dps sustained.
However, without pure dps classes doing 1.5-2k+ dps innately, all those buffs together wouldn't be enough to overcome many of the nastier timers, enrages (berzerks/frenzies, whatever) or other dps race related fights that Blizzard has taken a shine to.
Hell, a couple of top notch dps (along with good tanks and healers, of course) can just plain out make a run go faster, and who doesn't want to be out of some farmed hellhole half an hour earlier? (by speeding up kills or making kills fast enough that the length of the fight is short enough to avoid more of the mistakes that can be made).
As a personal example, the common theorycrafting is that 2 rogues and an Enhancement Shaman bring more dps to a raid than 3 rogues, which is great! However, if the enhancement shaman did equal damage to the rogues, well then why bring rogues? Shaman can interrupt, just like rogues, but also have a number of valuable buffs, can heal in a pinch, self rez once per hour, etc.
It's a hard balance to maintain across all class and spec compositions, particularly in large raids, but when it all fits together like the pieces of a puzzle, the final picture is worth more than the sum of its parts.
This is a design philosophy I can completely agree with.
Even when it does lead to moments of frustration when you have to replace your third fucking Enhancement Shaman. I swear, they get geared and then go on extended leaves like clockwork. >.<
Blizzard's been saying that a lot lately, that the whole balancing act is mostly a utility vs. damage output with other classes.
When I play Halo 3, or any other multiplayer game, I don't have to worry about balance. I know I'm better with certain weapons, and what weapon to use in the appropriate situation. I play to my strengths and minimize my weaknesses. I want to be able to do the same thing in WoW, or any other MMORPG that I play. I've only really played a paladin, so that's what I'll comment on.
When WoW started, you could play a paladin of any spec, and still be a viable tank/healer/group or solo pvper. Yeah certain talents helped out, but I could log on and do whatever I felt like doing that day. I don't see that as a bad thing at all. Sure, when you're talking about end-game raiding, people who specialize in that sort of thing want to know that what they bring to the table is the best they can bring. But that shouldn't gimp them in all other arenas of play. If I'm optimized to pve tank, I shouldn't also be the best healer and pvper, but I should be able to do that if I want to. There's a difference between being able to jump into something and do reasonably well at it, and be the best there is at it. I think that's what hybrids need to do. During TBC, it seemed like hybrids were forced to pick one portion of their repertoire and overspecialize just to be decent at it. If you have a sub-par hybrid like that, then what's the point of playing one? Who gets enjoyment out of playing a hybrid that's alright at one thing and terrible at everything else?
Sure, if I'm playing a rogue, and I see that a Ret paladin is doing everything that I can do better, and also have the ability to heal and tank well, I'd get upset. But the real deal is that a Ret paladin doesn't do everything a rogue does. Rogues have control, they have aggro reset buttons, they've got the ability to pick their fights in world pvp. Rogues, Hunters, and Warlocks may only be able to do the 'dps role' in pve, but they all bring a lot more to the table then just straight DPS, and they also have plenty of pvp tricks.
In essence, if WoW wants to be the best thing for all types of gamers, they need to have a kind of class balance that allows for specialization without handicapping other aspects of the class. And really, who honestly thinks that they would have more fun in a game that penalizes you for playing more than a single aspect of it.
Rogues bring little to the table other than straight up DPS. Distract, maybe, I guess. I know, I'm nitpicking. I would love for Rogues to bring some sort of buff, though. Like, a poison that increases damage taken from all attackers.
The problem is that balancing hybrids with "pure" classes is a nightmare. The "jack of all trades, master of none" philosophy that has historically been ascribed to these classes in games just does not fly in a min/maxing raid environment. If a paladin cannot tank as well as a warrior, then having a paladin tank in your raid is inefficient. If a paladin can tank as well as a warrior, then to a point it doesn't make sense to bring a warrior tank because the paladin can also buff people as well as heal while not tanking (though arguably not very well).
Balancing between "too good" and "not good enough" just gets way more complicated when hybrids are involved.
I'm talking raids. Sorry, should have clarified that. On raid bosses, none of those poisons have any effect whatsoever. Also, Hemo Specced rogues don't really belong in raids.
I feel like I saw a hemo specced rogue on the first KJ kill.
Not to say Sub is an optimal raid spec by any means, just saying I've seen it at the high end.
Heh, I just came in to edit my post. I shouldn't say they don't belong, just that they aren't very Widespread. Also, I'm shocked to find that a Hemo Rogue was in for KJ. I mean, I don't think 10 charges of Hemo (per Hemo) make up for the lost DPS from missed Combat/Assassination Talents.
And kicking is very helpful on the necromancers and banshees.
And sap is crucial to the big pull before Najentus.
Rogues bring a few utility stuff to raids. But considering how massive their dps is they don't even really need them.
No, they don't belong.
I mean, if shit is on farm and you aren't worried about maximizing DPS, then fine I guess. But yeah, no Rogue should be specced hemo for any kind of progression raiding.
and before TBC, all the hybrids did in PvE (and most of the time in PvP) was heal. Nowadays, pretty much all the hybrid specs are good for something.
On top of that, it's also an effect of adding more talent tiers every expansion. You enforce specialization. I don't think this is a bad thing.
I wasn't talking interrupts or anything like that. More along the lines of buffs. Also, I don't remember any pull in any 25-man where sap was necessary. Kick? Earthshock/Pummel. Sap? Trap. Everything a rogue can do as far as utility can be handled by another class. A class that brings buffs.
I think it's that we usually have piss-poor attendance from our hunters and mages. I'm talking about the pull before Najentus that has the two turtles. We hafta sap two of the naga and pull the big guys down the ramp while the turtles are sheeped.
I agree with the idea here, but just nitpicky with the exact wording.
Yes, hybrid dpsers should go 'good' damage, if they are skilled. Should an equally geared and skilled pure dps class do more dps by design? Absolutely. Should both be roughly par when taking into account utility? Yes.
But I was responding more to the concept out there on the servers that anytime you see a hybrid doing good DPS, it's because some pure DPS is slacking off. I play a druid, a paladin, a shaman, and have just started a priest. I guess I get a little antsy when it seems the general WoW population is unable to recognize when a utility class is busting butt and bringing good DPS.
Maybe I wasn't responding to Forar...
Anyway, my point is that, I think, we all agree that a class/spec that brings buffs, utility, etc, CANNOT have the same dps potential as a class/spec that does not, or, quite literally, the second class/spec would never find a raid again (unless he had non-optimal friends/guildies, and who wants those?). What I'm concerned with is, what if my class could do something else... if I respec. Does that mean that I also can't do the same dps as a "pure dps"? I want to argue no...
Maybe a guild would only accept hybrids in that situation because of the need for different setups on different fights, etc. But I'm thinking that at that point, if you have a world class dps that shows up every night, you're not really going to care that you can't have them respec holy. They'll still get their spot.
Also, with regard to using PvP utility to justify making a class suck more at raiding, Fuck That Noise.
You're so cute.
But seriously, I'll barely give you poisons (I often volunteer to be the poison bitch, but that just involves wound if we lack an MS warrior, and MN for one or two bosses).
Keep in mind that balance is hardest to achieve (and most heavily sought after) for raids. In the world at large and in five mans, sure I sap, blind and sometimes poison swap away. In raids, we ocassionally make use of distract, but the number of things vulnerable to most of our "utility" features can often be counted on one hand in a given instance.
Then again, I doubt anyone is seriously trying to debate Distract versus AI, Mark, Fort or BS, etc.
Hillarity: you can gouge to interrupt many of the BT trash casters, but cannot kick their spells. You cannot interrupt most Sunwell trash casters that I've fought, but CAN kick some of them. The inconsistancy is baffling at times.
Super edit 2: For the record, I believe ALL 10 classes should be able to do "good" dps in terms of soloing, and be able to spec into an improved level of dps and / or utility for raiding. However, all things being equal (gear, spec, skill, encounter favourtism, etc), I do feel that the 'dps' classes should always out-dps the 'non-dps' classes, even if they are dps spec'd. Not by orders of magnitude necessarily, but by enough of a margin that dps classes remain in demand, just as tanks, healers and off-specs are.
This here was probably the single greatest part of TBC.
When raiding before BC, you had warrior tanks. Paladins, priests and druids would heal. Every one else would dps (I guess shaman would heal as well, but I'm Alliance). That was that.
Since TBC you CAN end-game raid with a bear or pally tank, you CAN end-game raid with priest dps. More than anything, Blizzard fixed the pigeon holing as healers all the hybrids got. Frankly, I see WotLK as making it even better. I am excited about WoW for the first time in a long time.
Especially for my Pally. I am LOVING everything I hear.
Healing the party/raid with an attack? Yes, please! :P
EDIT: Apparently, Shockadins are potential pvp gods. I think a 26% base crit rate off talents and stats, and the fact that Holy Light will be an instant after a Holy Shock crit = seriously hard to kill paladins. Oh, lest I forget the 30 yard range on Judgments, the fact that Judging doesn't eat a Seal, SoV is applied every hit and does crazy damage, AND holy pallies get mana back after criting a judgment.
If you look at the new paladin talents on beta, you'll see an amazing thing: deep in each tree are abilities that synergize (sp?) with the spec's build, but allow it to do the other aspects of the class: Example: Sheathe of Light in the Ret tree which gives you 30% of your AP in spellpower and increases your critical heals. Things like that allow me to spec in a way that's fun for me, and still be able to perform all the functions of my class. I'm not saying that as a Ret pally I want to be the healer or tank in a raid, but I do want to be able to heal or tank in a 5 man if I need to. That's what I did in WoW leveling to 60 the first time. If we didn't have a priest, I would heal, no warrior; I would tank. Was there a druid? We could /rand and pick which we would do. Sure I wasn't the best choice for either role, but I could do it. I tried that again in TBC from 60 to 70, and it just couldn't happen. As a holy spec i could heal but not tank. When I respecced to Ret I couldn't do either.
That's the point that I'm trying to make. There's nothing wrong with specialization so long as I don't lose the ability to perform some aspects of my class by specializing in others. Or, as what happened in TBC: not have the base abilities needed to perform my class' role, and only get those abilities through talents.
Sure, I'm talking about casual stuff. I've never been in a raid: my schedule didn't allow for it when 40 and 20 mans where the rage. I never tried it in TBC because by that time I realized that I just wasn't enjoying playing a paladin. I don't know if raiding is something that casual players do now, but I suspect that it isn't. I know that I'm asking for a tall order here: I want classes that allow for balanced PvP choices (both solo and grouped), hybrids that can perform all roles of their class with the ability to specialize in one aspect (if they wish), and for classes to be equally desirable for raiding content. That is what I need to enjoy playing WoW. I don't think that anyone can fault this idea. I also understand that it doesn't all happen at once, and different players prioritize those three areas based on their playstyle.