But it is supposed to tie up the last five years
The last 60 issues were part of one story. So the fact that the generals are the target, when they've been the big bads for the last five years, does tie up the entire Ennis Run.
The last 60 issues were in the same UNIVERSE, sure. But Kitchen Irish, and the Nicky Cavella stuff didn't have anything to do with the Generals. Just because they were the more prevalent doesn't mean everything was about that aspect of the Ennis run.
I mean, I'm sure it could be easily argued either way, but that's just the way I'm seeing it.
Well the Nicky Cavella stuff was, because part of that was the generals ordering Rawlins to take out the Punisher.
Personally I thought it was... good, I guess. I think Ennis' work has always had serious elements mixed in with the more comically grotesque stuff. I was expecting something a little more profound about how Vietnam helped make Frank Castle what he is today. And yeah, not even showing the final confrontation with the generals after setting up this arc as the culmination of the last five years worth of stories was kind of weird. In the end it almost felt like Valley Forge, Valley Forge was barely even about the Punisher, it was mostly Ennis writing about the Vietnam war.
fray on
"I told you," said Ford. "Eddies in the space-time continuum."
"And this is his sofa, is it?" said Arthur.
For him to talk about Vietnam
The book in the story really didn't talk about the Punisher, it talked about the attack on the base and the lives the war destroyed
Well the Nicky Cavella stuff was, because part of that was the generals ordering Rawlins to take out the Punisher.
Personally I thought it was... good, I guess. I think Ennis' work has always had serious elements mixed in with the more comically grotesque stuff. I was expecting something a little more profound about how Vietnam helped make Frank Castle what he is today. And yeah, not even showing the final confrontation with the generals after setting up this arc as the culmination of the last five years worth of stories was kind of weird. In the end it almost felt like Valley Forge, Valley Forge was barely even about the Punisher, it was mostly Ennis writing about the Vietnam war.
Yeah serious elements in with the other stuff, but Max has been the most serious thing I've ever seen him write.
The Nicky Cavella thing that you're referring to was more two arcs tying together than it all being the same arc. I still stand by my thinking that this wasn't necessarily supposed to tie up 5 years of Punisher Max. It's the end of his run, so there was going to be some sort of resolution in that Ennis seems to have wanted all his villains dead by the time he left, but Punisher Max isn't over. There isn't going to be a final climax like there was with Preacher or anything, because it's not self-contained. It doesn't have an end until either Frank dies or the series gets cancelled. I guess it's mostly that I see these 60 issues as the beginning of a really good take on a character that is almost never handled well. Maybe that's a bit optimistic, but I try to allow myself some optimism every now and then.
For him to talk about Vietnam
The book in the story really didn't talk about the Punisher, it talked about the attack on the base and the lives the war destroyed
I know. That's exactly what I was saying. It's just it was billed as, and people have interpreted it as, being much more focused on the Punisher, as a tying-up of all the loose threads from Ennis' whole MAX run. I guess maybe it's a case of Ennis wanting to do one thing, and Marvel editorial wanting another.
fray on
"I told you," said Ford. "Eddies in the space-time continuum."
"And this is his sofa, is it?" said Arthur.
0
ZampanovYou May Not Go HomeUntil Tonight Has Been MagicalRegistered Userregular
For him to talk about Vietnam
The book in the story really didn't talk about the Punisher, it talked about the attack on the base and the lives the war destroyed
I know. That's exactly what I was saying. It's just it was billed as, and people have interpreted it as, being much more focused on the Punisher, as a tying-up of all the loose threads from Ennis' whole MAX run. I guess maybe it's a case of Ennis wanting to do one thing, and Marvel editorial wanting another.
I think it's Ennis that wanted to talk about Vietnam. Unless that's what you meant.
It would be interesting to hear what Ennis has to say about it. I got the impression he didn't want too much a sense of finality, because the series should keep going. I thought it was perfect as a farewell from Ennis, and I think he tied it up just well enough to give the next writer(s) a clean slate to work with, so that they could continue the series without having to deal with issues he left behind.
He did do that, but man it was a let down
At the end of a run that's been nothing but balls out killing mixed with awesome story-telling, getting just the story-telling is a let down
Especially after that opening page
"One in the chamber. That's eight." Even just the generals walking in and actually seeing Frank and Frank saying something badass would have made it better
He did do that, but man it was a let down
At the end of a run that's been nothing but balls out killing mixed with awesome story-telling, getting just the story-telling is a let down
Especially after that opening page
"One in the chamber. That's eight." Even just the generals walking in and actually seeing Frank and Frank saying something badass would have made it better
I can't think of anything Frank could say that would mean more than what we got at the end. In fact, I kind of like that the generals get such an unimportant looking death. It's what had to be done, no more, no less. That's Frank Castle.
If you want to see Vietnam make him into the Punisher, get Born
It's Ennis' take on Frank's origin
I really didn't like Born. The idea that Frank was so psychologically broken even before his family was killed just seems really wrong for the character. It's like if Bruce Wayne was already wanted to fight crime before his parents were shot; sure, the story still works but it's just weird.
If you want to see Vietnam make him into the Punisher, get Born
It's Ennis' take on Frank's origin
I really didn't like Born. The idea that Frank was so psychologically broken even before his family was killed just seems really wrong for the character. It's like if Bruce Wayne was already wanted to fight crime before his parents were shot; sure, the story still works but it's just weird.
It's just that lots of people have watched their family die and they don't start a life-long war on crime. There had to be something much deeper much earlier that turns him from a human being into a force of nature. I mean Frank had seen a lot before his family was killed. That was just the trigger. Bruce Wayne's trigger occurs before he's really exposed to the dark side of humanity. Frank knew all about it already. Even before Vietnam. Read The Tyger one-shot for that story. This is what Frank was always supposed to be.
In the end, I think that's why I did like Born so much. Frank makes the choice, solidifying his destiny. It wasn't just a random occurrence, it was Fate. It gives the story so much more gravity.
If you want to see Vietnam make him into the Punisher, get Born
It's Ennis' take on Frank's origin
I really didn't like Born. The idea that Frank was so psychologically broken even before his family was killed just seems really wrong for the character. It's like if Bruce Wayne was already wanted to fight crime before his parents were shot; sure, the story still works but it's just weird.
I like the idea that something really did reach out to him and get him through the assault, and that same thing claimed his family as payment
If you want to see Vietnam make him into the Punisher, get Born
It's Ennis' take on Frank's origin
I really didn't like Born. The idea that Frank was so psychologically broken even before his family was killed just seems really wrong for the character. It's like if Bruce Wayne was already wanted to fight crime before his parents were shot; sure, the story still works but it's just weird.
the idea wasn't that he was "broken" by vietnam, it was that he made an unwise deal to stay alive and get back to his family. his choice there in the jungle led to his losing his family.
I got the impression from interviews that this mini is supposed to explain some of that. (Why The Spectre rarely goes after Super Villains)
It seems to me that maybe Crispus Allen/The Spectre need to break away from God. Like some kind of Fallen Angel or something. He's just way too powerful.
This actually the reason Spectre is bonded to a human. Way back when, Spectre decided to start killing things his own way instead of the way God intended (think about the way he wiped out most of magic with no human to keep him in check). God decided the best way to limit his power was to bond him to humans to temper his killingspree personality. So actually they already did this.
I ended up driving to another store to pick up PUNISHER #60 - it was worth it. The Ennis Punisher run (#1-60 and the BORN mini) are deserving of an omnibus/absolute/whatever edition. I thought they way he handled the Generals was spot-on - he treated them just like any other criminal that he gets in his sights.
Also, I'd argue that THE BOYS is about more than just 'taking a piss' on super heroes. That's what I initially thought of it as well, but there's a whole other story happening behind that story - you just don't notice it until you read the first fifteen issues or so. I like where Ennis is going with the book.
CROSSED #0 wasn't half-bad either, but I'm a sucker for zombie-esque end of the world books.
jkylefulton on
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ZampanovYou May Not Go HomeUntil Tonight Has Been MagicalRegistered Userregular
Also, I'd argue that THE BOYS is about more than just 'taking a piss' on super heroes. That's what I initially thought of it as well, but there's a whole other story happening behind that story - you just don't notice it until you read the first fifteen issues or so. I like where Ennis is going with the book.
Oh no, I'm not saying there's nothing serious about it, but in it, like most of his stuff, he likes to screw around comedically. It's "taking the piss" not "pissing on." It's a UK expression. Like joking around, kidding, etc. I'm pretty sure it can also mean drunk.
There was almost none of that in Max. There's been comic relief, sure, but nowhere near what he's used to.
If you want to see Vietnam make him into the Punisher, get Born
It's Ennis' take on Frank's origin
I really didn't like Born. The idea that Frank was so psychologically broken even before his family was killed just seems really wrong for the character. It's like if Bruce Wayne was already wanted to fight crime before his parents were shot; sure, the story still works but it's just weird.
the idea wasn't that he was "broken" by vietnam, it was that he made an unwise deal to stay alive and get back to his family. his choice there in the jungle led to his losing his family.
I know that, it's just that even before he made that deal he was very fucked in the head, like he already had the mindset of the Punisher and was just looking for an excuse to be a murderous bastard. It changes the whole basis of the character from a relatively normal, if a little gung-ho, guy who was driven over the edge by his family's death to a guy who was already close to psychopathy and just looking for an excuse.
That and the fact I really don't like this pact with death thing. It's a little too close to the whole Angel-Punisher thing.
I think it's ambiguous enough that you don't necessarily have to see it as a 'pact with Death'. The guy snapped so that he could kill the fuck out of Charlie, there doesn't have to be anything supernatural about it.
I think it's ambiguous enough that you don't necessarily have to see it as a 'pact with Death'. The guy snapped so that he could kill the fuck out of Charlie, there doesn't have to be anything supernatural about it.
I think Ennis said in an interview that it was supposed to be Death talking to Frank.
It's a pretty fucking weird coincidence
That Frank's crazy side also happens to know the future
I like the idea that while what happened in Vietnam and the death of his family were related to what he talked to, everything he's done since the picnic was all him
I think it's ambiguous enough that you don't necessarily have to see it as a 'pact with Death'. The guy snapped so that he could kill the fuck out of Charlie, there doesn't have to be anything supernatural about it.
I think Ennis said in an interview that it was supposed to be Death talking to Frank.
Yeah, I'd have to see that. I'm fairly certain that he left it ambiguous on purpose.
I think it's ambiguous enough that you don't necessarily have to see it as a 'pact with Death'. The guy snapped so that he could kill the fuck out of Charlie, there doesn't have to be anything supernatural about it.
I think Ennis said in an interview that it was supposed to be Death talking to Frank.
Yeah, I'd have to see that. I'm fairly certain that he left it ambiguous on purpose.
I may have actually hallucinated it because I sure as hell can't find it now. Balls.
I know there are people dropping the book now that Ennis is leaving
But I think I'm going to at least ride out the next three arcs
Get the short, crime novelist stories out of the way, see who they get as a full-timer after that
Have they said anything about that by the way?
I think it's ambiguous enough that you don't necessarily have to see it as a 'pact with Death'. The guy snapped so that he could kill the fuck out of Charlie, there doesn't have to be anything supernatural about it.
I think Ennis said in an interview that it was supposed to be Death talking to Frank.
Yeah, I'd have to see that. I'm fairly certain that he left it ambiguous on purpose.
I may have actually hallucinated it because I sure as hell can't find it now. Balls.
Either way, I like thinking it's supernatural, and I like that other people can still think that it's his mind dealing with what's happening. Either way he still makes the choice.
I'm in the same boat as wiggins - I'll try a few issues of the new guys, and then decide based on whomever they get in the long term (good god, I hope this is why Brubaker is leaving UNCANNY). Or maybe they can get Jason Aaron to do the book, I don't know.
Edit: I agree completely, Zamp. There's nothing wrong with leaving it up to the reader.
jkylefulton on
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ZampanovYou May Not Go HomeUntil Tonight Has Been MagicalRegistered Userregular
I know there are people dropping the book now that Ennis is leaving
But I think I'm going to at least ride out the next three arcs
Get the short, crime novelist stories out of the way, see who they get as a full-timer after that
Have they said anything about that by the way?
I haven't heard anything yet. And the short preview of this first crime novelist guy seems like he's on point with the tone at least. Maybe if all three (I think it's three) guys are good at it, they can just alternate until it's canceled.
If Bru or Aaron took over I'd shit mysef
Jason Aaron writes the craziest shit
Look at his first arc on Ghost Rider. Ghostly cannibals, gun-toting nurses, pissed off angels
Shit was bananas
I have never seen Scalped on my shelves
Then again I've never looked very hard
Are there any trades out? I'd like to at least finish the first arc, I read the first issue online
I think there are two trades so far, with a third coming soon. I think the first trade might even have a "Jason Aaron Money Back Guarantee" or some such.
Man, as much as I loved Aaron's crazy-ass balls-to-the-wall awesome in Ghost Rider I can't help but think that sort of stuff would be incredibly jarring in MAX, which up until now has mostly been serious as fuck.
I could have sworn that I read somewhere, maybe in SDCC coverage of the Mondo Marvel panel, that it Jason Aaron will have a shot at Punisher after these next three arcs. I know I'm forgetting someone, but Hurwitz, Swierczynski, Huston and Aaron have all been mentioned so far as involved or "interested" or some other euphemism for "we can't really say yet."
I think it's ambiguous enough that you don't necessarily have to see it as a 'pact with Death'. The guy snapped so that he could kill the fuck out of Charlie, there doesn't have to be anything supernatural about it.
I think Ennis said in an interview that it was supposed to be Death talking to Frank.
My favorite parallel to that is in Moon Knight when Marc and Khonshu are "talking" and admiring Frank's work, that Khonshu says that he'd dump Marc like a five-dollar whore for Frank if he didn't already belong to another.
But then again, Marc is fucking crazy and thinks he can talk to an Egyptian god.
Though it would be something to see if he addresses it if Charlie Huston does have an arc in Punisher.
I think it's like "See how he wears the colors of his god?" over a shot of the skull shirt
But yeah I would flip shit over that, seeing as someone else is writing the new Moon Knight arc
Posts
The last 60 issues were in the same UNIVERSE, sure. But Kitchen Irish, and the Nicky Cavella stuff didn't have anything to do with the Generals. Just because they were the more prevalent doesn't mean everything was about that aspect of the Ennis run.
I mean, I'm sure it could be easily argued either way, but that's just the way I'm seeing it.
PSN/XBL: Zampanov -- Steam: Zampanov
Personally I thought it was... good, I guess. I think Ennis' work has always had serious elements mixed in with the more comically grotesque stuff. I was expecting something a little more profound about how Vietnam helped make Frank Castle what he is today. And yeah, not even showing the final confrontation with the generals after setting up this arc as the culmination of the last five years worth of stories was kind of weird. In the end it almost felt like Valley Forge, Valley Forge was barely even about the Punisher, it was mostly Ennis writing about the Vietnam war.
"And this is his sofa, is it?" said Arthur.
It's Ennis' take on Frank's origin
"And this is his sofa, is it?" said Arthur.
The book in the story really didn't talk about the Punisher, it talked about the attack on the base and the lives the war destroyed
Yeah serious elements in with the other stuff, but Max has been the most serious thing I've ever seen him write.
The Nicky Cavella thing that you're referring to was more two arcs tying together than it all being the same arc. I still stand by my thinking that this wasn't necessarily supposed to tie up 5 years of Punisher Max. It's the end of his run, so there was going to be some sort of resolution in that Ennis seems to have wanted all his villains dead by the time he left, but Punisher Max isn't over. There isn't going to be a final climax like there was with Preacher or anything, because it's not self-contained. It doesn't have an end until either Frank dies or the series gets cancelled. I guess it's mostly that I see these 60 issues as the beginning of a really good take on a character that is almost never handled well. Maybe that's a bit optimistic, but I try to allow myself some optimism every now and then.
PSN/XBL: Zampanov -- Steam: Zampanov
I know. That's exactly what I was saying. It's just it was billed as, and people have interpreted it as, being much more focused on the Punisher, as a tying-up of all the loose threads from Ennis' whole MAX run. I guess maybe it's a case of Ennis wanting to do one thing, and Marvel editorial wanting another.
"And this is his sofa, is it?" said Arthur.
I think it's Ennis that wanted to talk about Vietnam. Unless that's what you meant.
It would be interesting to hear what Ennis has to say about it. I got the impression he didn't want too much a sense of finality, because the series should keep going. I thought it was perfect as a farewell from Ennis, and I think he tied it up just well enough to give the next writer(s) a clean slate to work with, so that they could continue the series without having to deal with issues he left behind.
PSN/XBL: Zampanov -- Steam: Zampanov
At the end of a run that's been nothing but balls out killing mixed with awesome story-telling, getting just the story-telling is a let down
Especially after that opening page
"One in the chamber. That's eight." Even just the generals walking in and actually seeing Frank and Frank saying something badass would have made it better
I can't think of anything Frank could say that would mean more than what we got at the end. In fact, I kind of like that the generals get such an unimportant looking death. It's what had to be done, no more, no less. That's Frank Castle.
PSN/XBL: Zampanov -- Steam: Zampanov
I really didn't like Born. The idea that Frank was so psychologically broken even before his family was killed just seems really wrong for the character. It's like if Bruce Wayne was already wanted to fight crime before his parents were shot; sure, the story still works but it's just weird.
Fixed.
It's just that lots of people have watched their family die and they don't start a life-long war on crime. There had to be something much deeper much earlier that turns him from a human being into a force of nature. I mean Frank had seen a lot before his family was killed. That was just the trigger. Bruce Wayne's trigger occurs before he's really exposed to the dark side of humanity. Frank knew all about it already. Even before Vietnam. Read The Tyger one-shot for that story. This is what Frank was always supposed to be.
In the end, I think that's why I did like Born so much. Frank makes the choice, solidifying his destiny. It wasn't just a random occurrence, it was Fate. It gives the story so much more gravity.
Edit: Sorry for the slight derailing! I'm done!
PSN/XBL: Zampanov -- Steam: Zampanov
I like the idea that something really did reach out to him and get him through the assault, and that same thing claimed his family as payment
the idea wasn't that he was "broken" by vietnam, it was that he made an unwise deal to stay alive and get back to his family. his choice there in the jungle led to his losing his family.
This actually the reason Spectre is bonded to a human. Way back when, Spectre decided to start killing things his own way instead of the way God intended (think about the way he wiped out most of magic with no human to keep him in check). God decided the best way to limit his power was to bond him to humans to temper his killingspree personality. So actually they already did this.
Also, I'd argue that THE BOYS is about more than just 'taking a piss' on super heroes. That's what I initially thought of it as well, but there's a whole other story happening behind that story - you just don't notice it until you read the first fifteen issues or so. I like where Ennis is going with the book.
CROSSED #0 wasn't half-bad either, but I'm a sucker for zombie-esque end of the world books.
Oh no, I'm not saying there's nothing serious about it, but in it, like most of his stuff, he likes to screw around comedically. It's "taking the piss" not "pissing on." It's a UK expression. Like joking around, kidding, etc. I'm pretty sure it can also mean drunk.
There was almost none of that in Max. There's been comic relief, sure, but nowhere near what he's used to.
PSN/XBL: Zampanov -- Steam: Zampanov
I know that, it's just that even before he made that deal he was very fucked in the head, like he already had the mindset of the Punisher and was just looking for an excuse to be a murderous bastard. It changes the whole basis of the character from a relatively normal, if a little gung-ho, guy who was driven over the edge by his family's death to a guy who was already close to psychopathy and just looking for an excuse.
That and the fact I really don't like this pact with death thing. It's a little too close to the whole Angel-Punisher thing.
And then his family died!
I think Ennis said in an interview that it was supposed to be Death talking to Frank.
And I didn't read that interview, Salmon, so my viewpoint is still perfectly cromulent.
That Frank's crazy side also happens to know the future
I like the idea that while what happened in Vietnam and the death of his family were related to what he talked to, everything he's done since the picnic was all him
Yeah, I'd have to see that. I'm fairly certain that he left it ambiguous on purpose.
PSN/XBL: Zampanov -- Steam: Zampanov
I may have actually hallucinated it because I sure as hell can't find it now. Balls.
But I think I'm going to at least ride out the next three arcs
Get the short, crime novelist stories out of the way, see who they get as a full-timer after that
Have they said anything about that by the way?
Either way, I like thinking it's supernatural, and I like that other people can still think that it's his mind dealing with what's happening. Either way he still makes the choice.
PSN/XBL: Zampanov -- Steam: Zampanov
Oh, it will, it will indeed.
I'm in the same boat as wiggins - I'll try a few issues of the new guys, and then decide based on whomever they get in the long term (good god, I hope this is why Brubaker is leaving UNCANNY). Or maybe they can get Jason Aaron to do the book, I don't know.
Edit: I agree completely, Zamp. There's nothing wrong with leaving it up to the reader.
I haven't heard anything yet. And the short preview of this first crime novelist guy seems like he's on point with the tone at least. Maybe if all three (I think it's three) guys are good at it, they can just alternate until it's canceled.
PSN/XBL: Zampanov -- Steam: Zampanov
Jason Aaron writes the craziest shit
Look at his first arc on Ghost Rider. Ghostly cannibals, gun-toting nurses, pissed off angels
Shit was bananas
Then again I've never looked very hard
Are there any trades out? I'd like to at least finish the first arc, I read the first issue online
Except for the whale, I guess.
My favorite parallel to that is in Moon Knight when Marc and Khonshu are "talking" and admiring Frank's work, that Khonshu says that he'd dump Marc like a five-dollar whore for Frank if he didn't already belong to another.
But then again, Marc is fucking crazy and thinks he can talk to an Egyptian god.
Though it would be something to see if he addresses it if Charlie Huston does have an arc in Punisher.
But yeah I would flip shit over that, seeing as someone else is writing the new Moon Knight arc