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This Week's Moments: August 13, 2008

124

Posts

  • ZampanovZampanov You May Not Go Home Until Tonight Has Been MagicalRegistered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Lol! wrote: »
    But it is supposed to tie up the last five years
    The last 60 issues were part of one story. So the fact that the generals are the target, when they've been the big bads for the last five years, does tie up the entire Ennis Run.

    The last 60 issues were in the same UNIVERSE, sure. But Kitchen Irish, and the Nicky Cavella stuff didn't have anything to do with the Generals. Just because they were the more prevalent doesn't mean everything was about that aspect of the Ennis run.

    I mean, I'm sure it could be easily argued either way, but that's just the way I'm seeing it.

    Zampanov on
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  • frayfray Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Well the Nicky Cavella stuff was, because part of that was the generals ordering Rawlins to take out the Punisher.

    Personally I thought it was... good, I guess. I think Ennis' work has always had serious elements mixed in with the more comically grotesque stuff. I was expecting something a little more profound about how Vietnam helped make Frank Castle what he is today. And yeah, not even showing the final confrontation with the generals after setting up this arc as the culmination of the last five years worth of stories was kind of weird. In the end it almost felt like Valley Forge, Valley Forge was barely even about the Punisher, it was mostly Ennis writing about the Vietnam war.

    fray on
    "I told you," said Ford. "Eddies in the space-time continuum."
    "And this is his sofa, is it?" said Arthur.
  • Me Too!Me Too! __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2008
    If you want to see Vietnam make him into the Punisher, get Born
    It's Ennis' take on Frank's origin

    Me Too! on
  • frayfray Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Well yeah, I have read it. But then what's the point of Valley Forge, Valley Forge?

    fray on
    "I told you," said Ford. "Eddies in the space-time continuum."
    "And this is his sofa, is it?" said Arthur.
  • Me Too!Me Too! __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2008
    For him to talk about Vietnam
    The book in the story really didn't talk about the Punisher, it talked about the attack on the base and the lives the war destroyed

    Me Too! on
  • ZampanovZampanov You May Not Go Home Until Tonight Has Been MagicalRegistered User regular
    edited August 2008
    fray wrote: »
    Well the Nicky Cavella stuff was, because part of that was the generals ordering Rawlins to take out the Punisher.

    Personally I thought it was... good, I guess. I think Ennis' work has always had serious elements mixed in with the more comically grotesque stuff. I was expecting something a little more profound about how Vietnam helped make Frank Castle what he is today. And yeah, not even showing the final confrontation with the generals after setting up this arc as the culmination of the last five years worth of stories was kind of weird. In the end it almost felt like Valley Forge, Valley Forge was barely even about the Punisher, it was mostly Ennis writing about the Vietnam war.

    Yeah serious elements in with the other stuff, but Max has been the most serious thing I've ever seen him write.

    The Nicky Cavella thing that you're referring to was more two arcs tying together than it all being the same arc. I still stand by my thinking that this wasn't necessarily supposed to tie up 5 years of Punisher Max. It's the end of his run, so there was going to be some sort of resolution in that Ennis seems to have wanted all his villains dead by the time he left, but Punisher Max isn't over. There isn't going to be a final climax like there was with Preacher or anything, because it's not self-contained. It doesn't have an end until either Frank dies or the series gets cancelled. I guess it's mostly that I see these 60 issues as the beginning of a really good take on a character that is almost never handled well. Maybe that's a bit optimistic, but I try to allow myself some optimism every now and then.

    Zampanov on
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  • frayfray Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Lol! wrote: »
    For him to talk about Vietnam
    The book in the story really didn't talk about the Punisher, it talked about the attack on the base and the lives the war destroyed

    I know. That's exactly what I was saying. It's just it was billed as, and people have interpreted it as, being much more focused on the Punisher, as a tying-up of all the loose threads from Ennis' whole MAX run. I guess maybe it's a case of Ennis wanting to do one thing, and Marvel editorial wanting another.

    fray on
    "I told you," said Ford. "Eddies in the space-time continuum."
    "And this is his sofa, is it?" said Arthur.
  • ZampanovZampanov You May Not Go Home Until Tonight Has Been MagicalRegistered User regular
    edited August 2008
    fray wrote: »
    Lol! wrote: »
    For him to talk about Vietnam
    The book in the story really didn't talk about the Punisher, it talked about the attack on the base and the lives the war destroyed

    I know. That's exactly what I was saying. It's just it was billed as, and people have interpreted it as, being much more focused on the Punisher, as a tying-up of all the loose threads from Ennis' whole MAX run. I guess maybe it's a case of Ennis wanting to do one thing, and Marvel editorial wanting another.

    I think it's Ennis that wanted to talk about Vietnam. Unless that's what you meant.

    It would be interesting to hear what Ennis has to say about it. I got the impression he didn't want too much a sense of finality, because the series should keep going. I thought it was perfect as a farewell from Ennis, and I think he tied it up just well enough to give the next writer(s) a clean slate to work with, so that they could continue the series without having to deal with issues he left behind.

    Zampanov on
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    PSN/XBL: Zampanov -- Steam: Zampanov
  • SalmonOfDoubtSalmonOfDoubt Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    I dunno, I really liked having such an understated, quiet ending. Seemed to work a lot better than shoehorning a big firefight in there.

    SalmonOfDoubt on
    heavensidesig80.jpg
    PiptheFair wrote: »
    killing children would be hilarious
    Olivaw wrote: »
    HELLO AND WELCOME TO THE PENNY ARCADE FORUMS

    PLEASE ENJOY YOUR STAY

    AND THIS PENIS
    Man, I don't want to read about this lady's broken vagina.
    NotACrook wrote: »
    I am sitting here trying to come up with a tiered system for rating child molesters.
    cock vore is fuckin hilarious
  • Me Too!Me Too! __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2008
    He did do that, but man it was a let down
    At the end of a run that's been nothing but balls out killing mixed with awesome story-telling, getting just the story-telling is a let down
    Especially after that opening page
    "One in the chamber. That's eight." Even just the generals walking in and actually seeing Frank and Frank saying something badass would have made it better

    Me Too! on
  • ZampanovZampanov You May Not Go Home Until Tonight Has Been MagicalRegistered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Lol! wrote: »
    He did do that, but man it was a let down
    At the end of a run that's been nothing but balls out killing mixed with awesome story-telling, getting just the story-telling is a let down
    Especially after that opening page
    "One in the chamber. That's eight." Even just the generals walking in and actually seeing Frank and Frank saying something badass would have made it better

    I can't think of anything Frank could say that would mean more than what we got at the end. In fact, I kind of like that the generals get such an unimportant looking death. It's what had to be done, no more, no less. That's Frank Castle.

    Zampanov on
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    PSN/XBL: Zampanov -- Steam: Zampanov
  • SalmonOfDoubtSalmonOfDoubt Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Lol! wrote: »
    If you want to see Vietnam make him into the Punisher, get Born
    It's Ennis' take on Frank's origin

    I really didn't like Born. The idea that Frank was so psychologically broken even before his family was killed just seems really wrong for the character. It's like if Bruce Wayne was already wanted to fight crime before his parents were shot; sure, the story still works but it's just weird.

    SalmonOfDoubt on
    heavensidesig80.jpg
    PiptheFair wrote: »
    killing children would be hilarious
    Olivaw wrote: »
    HELLO AND WELCOME TO THE PENNY ARCADE FORUMS

    PLEASE ENJOY YOUR STAY

    AND THIS PENIS
    Man, I don't want to read about this lady's broken vagina.
    NotACrook wrote: »
    I am sitting here trying to come up with a tiered system for rating child molesters.
    cock vore is fuckin hilarious
  • SagrothSagroth Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Tach wrote: »
    They killed Dr. Light? Aww man! Now who's going to sound like raperaperaperape in my head?

    Fixed.

    Sagroth on
    3DS Code: 5155-3087-0800
  • ZampanovZampanov You May Not Go Home Until Tonight Has Been MagicalRegistered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Lol! wrote: »
    If you want to see Vietnam make him into the Punisher, get Born
    It's Ennis' take on Frank's origin

    I really didn't like Born. The idea that Frank was so psychologically broken even before his family was killed just seems really wrong for the character. It's like if Bruce Wayne was already wanted to fight crime before his parents were shot; sure, the story still works but it's just weird.


    It's just that lots of people have watched their family die and they don't start a life-long war on crime. There had to be something much deeper much earlier that turns him from a human being into a force of nature. I mean Frank had seen a lot before his family was killed. That was just the trigger. Bruce Wayne's trigger occurs before he's really exposed to the dark side of humanity. Frank knew all about it already. Even before Vietnam. Read The Tyger one-shot for that story. This is what Frank was always supposed to be.

    In the end, I think that's why I did like Born so much. Frank makes the choice, solidifying his destiny. It wasn't just a random occurrence, it was Fate. It gives the story so much more gravity.



    Edit: Sorry for the slight derailing! I'm done!

    Zampanov on
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    PSN/XBL: Zampanov -- Steam: Zampanov
  • Me Too!Me Too! __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2008
    Lol! wrote: »
    If you want to see Vietnam make him into the Punisher, get Born
    It's Ennis' take on Frank's origin

    I really didn't like Born. The idea that Frank was so psychologically broken even before his family was killed just seems really wrong for the character. It's like if Bruce Wayne was already wanted to fight crime before his parents were shot; sure, the story still works but it's just weird.

    I like the idea that something really did reach out to him and get him through the assault, and that same thing claimed his family as payment

    Me Too! on
  • ServoServo Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited August 2008
    Lol! wrote: »
    If you want to see Vietnam make him into the Punisher, get Born
    It's Ennis' take on Frank's origin

    I really didn't like Born. The idea that Frank was so psychologically broken even before his family was killed just seems really wrong for the character. It's like if Bruce Wayne was already wanted to fight crime before his parents were shot; sure, the story still works but it's just weird.

    the idea wasn't that he was "broken" by vietnam, it was that he made an unwise deal to stay alive and get back to his family. his choice there in the jungle led to his losing his family.

    Servo on
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  • übergeekübergeek Sector 2814Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Lux wrote: »
    I got the impression from interviews that this mini is supposed to explain some of that. (Why The Spectre rarely goes after Super Villains)

    It seems to me that maybe Crispus Allen/The Spectre need to break away from God. Like some kind of Fallen Angel or something. He's just way too powerful.


    This actually the reason Spectre is bonded to a human. Way back when, Spectre decided to start killing things his own way instead of the way God intended (think about the way he wiped out most of magic with no human to keep him in check). God decided the best way to limit his power was to bond him to humans to temper his killingspree personality. So actually they already did this.

    übergeek on
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  • jkylefultonjkylefulton Squid...or Kid? NNID - majpellRegistered User regular
    edited August 2008
    I ended up driving to another store to pick up PUNISHER #60 - it was worth it. The Ennis Punisher run (#1-60 and the BORN mini) are deserving of an omnibus/absolute/whatever edition. I thought they way he handled the Generals was spot-on - he treated them just like any other criminal that he gets in his sights.

    Also, I'd argue that THE BOYS is about more than just 'taking a piss' on super heroes. That's what I initially thought of it as well, but there's a whole other story happening behind that story - you just don't notice it until you read the first fifteen issues or so. I like where Ennis is going with the book.

    CROSSED #0 wasn't half-bad either, but I'm a sucker for zombie-esque end of the world books.

    jkylefulton on
    tOkYVT2.jpg
  • ZampanovZampanov You May Not Go Home Until Tonight Has Been MagicalRegistered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Also, I'd argue that THE BOYS is about more than just 'taking a piss' on super heroes. That's what I initially thought of it as well, but there's a whole other story happening behind that story - you just don't notice it until you read the first fifteen issues or so. I like where Ennis is going with the book.

    Oh no, I'm not saying there's nothing serious about it, but in it, like most of his stuff, he likes to screw around comedically. It's "taking the piss" not "pissing on." It's a UK expression. Like joking around, kidding, etc. I'm pretty sure it can also mean drunk.

    There was almost none of that in Max. There's been comic relief, sure, but nowhere near what he's used to.

    Zampanov on
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    PSN/XBL: Zampanov -- Steam: Zampanov
  • jkylefultonjkylefulton Squid...or Kid? NNID - majpellRegistered User regular
    edited August 2008
    UK expressions can shampoo my crotch. ::fuck you UK::

    jkylefulton on
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  • SalmonOfDoubtSalmonOfDoubt Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Servo wrote: »
    Lol! wrote: »
    If you want to see Vietnam make him into the Punisher, get Born
    It's Ennis' take on Frank's origin

    I really didn't like Born. The idea that Frank was so psychologically broken even before his family was killed just seems really wrong for the character. It's like if Bruce Wayne was already wanted to fight crime before his parents were shot; sure, the story still works but it's just weird.

    the idea wasn't that he was "broken" by vietnam, it was that he made an unwise deal to stay alive and get back to his family. his choice there in the jungle led to his losing his family.

    I know that, it's just that even before he made that deal he was very fucked in the head, like he already had the mindset of the Punisher and was just looking for an excuse to be a murderous bastard. It changes the whole basis of the character from a relatively normal, if a little gung-ho, guy who was driven over the edge by his family's death to a guy who was already close to psychopathy and just looking for an excuse.

    That and the fact I really don't like this pact with death thing. It's a little too close to the whole Angel-Punisher thing.

    SalmonOfDoubt on
    heavensidesig80.jpg
    PiptheFair wrote: »
    killing children would be hilarious
    Olivaw wrote: »
    HELLO AND WELCOME TO THE PENNY ARCADE FORUMS

    PLEASE ENJOY YOUR STAY

    AND THIS PENIS
    Man, I don't want to read about this lady's broken vagina.
    NotACrook wrote: »
    I am sitting here trying to come up with a tiered system for rating child molesters.
    cock vore is fuckin hilarious
  • jkylefultonjkylefulton Squid...or Kid? NNID - majpellRegistered User regular
    edited August 2008
    I think it's ambiguous enough that you don't necessarily have to see it as a 'pact with Death'. The guy snapped so that he could kill the fuck out of Charlie, there doesn't have to be anything supernatural about it.

    jkylefulton on
    tOkYVT2.jpg
  • Me Too!Me Too! __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2008
    Pretty sure the voice said it was going to take something from him as payment
    And then his family died!

    Me Too! on
  • SalmonOfDoubtSalmonOfDoubt Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    I think it's ambiguous enough that you don't necessarily have to see it as a 'pact with Death'. The guy snapped so that he could kill the fuck out of Charlie, there doesn't have to be anything supernatural about it.

    I think Ennis said in an interview that it was supposed to be Death talking to Frank.

    SalmonOfDoubt on
    heavensidesig80.jpg
    PiptheFair wrote: »
    killing children would be hilarious
    Olivaw wrote: »
    HELLO AND WELCOME TO THE PENNY ARCADE FORUMS

    PLEASE ENJOY YOUR STAY

    AND THIS PENIS
    Man, I don't want to read about this lady's broken vagina.
    NotACrook wrote: »
    I am sitting here trying to come up with a tiered system for rating child molesters.
    cock vore is fuckin hilarious
  • jkylefultonjkylefulton Squid...or Kid? NNID - majpellRegistered User regular
    edited August 2008
    That could just be his crazy side talking again, wiggins.

    And I didn't read that interview, Salmon, so my viewpoint is still perfectly cromulent.

    jkylefulton on
    tOkYVT2.jpg
  • Me Too!Me Too! __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2008
    It's a pretty fucking weird coincidence
    That Frank's crazy side also happens to know the future
    I like the idea that while what happened in Vietnam and the death of his family were related to what he talked to, everything he's done since the picnic was all him

    Me Too! on
  • SalmonOfDoubtSalmonOfDoubt Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    I hope it embiggens you.

    SalmonOfDoubt on
    heavensidesig80.jpg
    PiptheFair wrote: »
    killing children would be hilarious
    Olivaw wrote: »
    HELLO AND WELCOME TO THE PENNY ARCADE FORUMS

    PLEASE ENJOY YOUR STAY

    AND THIS PENIS
    Man, I don't want to read about this lady's broken vagina.
    NotACrook wrote: »
    I am sitting here trying to come up with a tiered system for rating child molesters.
    cock vore is fuckin hilarious
  • ZampanovZampanov You May Not Go Home Until Tonight Has Been MagicalRegistered User regular
    edited August 2008
    I think it's ambiguous enough that you don't necessarily have to see it as a 'pact with Death'. The guy snapped so that he could kill the fuck out of Charlie, there doesn't have to be anything supernatural about it.

    I think Ennis said in an interview that it was supposed to be Death talking to Frank.

    Yeah, I'd have to see that. I'm fairly certain that he left it ambiguous on purpose.

    Zampanov on
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    PSN/XBL: Zampanov -- Steam: Zampanov
  • SalmonOfDoubtSalmonOfDoubt Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Zampanov wrote: »
    I think it's ambiguous enough that you don't necessarily have to see it as a 'pact with Death'. The guy snapped so that he could kill the fuck out of Charlie, there doesn't have to be anything supernatural about it.

    I think Ennis said in an interview that it was supposed to be Death talking to Frank.

    Yeah, I'd have to see that. I'm fairly certain that he left it ambiguous on purpose.

    I may have actually hallucinated it because I sure as hell can't find it now. Balls.

    SalmonOfDoubt on
    heavensidesig80.jpg
    PiptheFair wrote: »
    killing children would be hilarious
    Olivaw wrote: »
    HELLO AND WELCOME TO THE PENNY ARCADE FORUMS

    PLEASE ENJOY YOUR STAY

    AND THIS PENIS
    Man, I don't want to read about this lady's broken vagina.
    NotACrook wrote: »
    I am sitting here trying to come up with a tiered system for rating child molesters.
    cock vore is fuckin hilarious
  • Me Too!Me Too! __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2008
    I know there are people dropping the book now that Ennis is leaving
    But I think I'm going to at least ride out the next three arcs
    Get the short, crime novelist stories out of the way, see who they get as a full-timer after that
    Have they said anything about that by the way?

    Me Too! on
  • ZampanovZampanov You May Not Go Home Until Tonight Has Been MagicalRegistered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Zampanov wrote: »
    I think it's ambiguous enough that you don't necessarily have to see it as a 'pact with Death'. The guy snapped so that he could kill the fuck out of Charlie, there doesn't have to be anything supernatural about it.

    I think Ennis said in an interview that it was supposed to be Death talking to Frank.

    Yeah, I'd have to see that. I'm fairly certain that he left it ambiguous on purpose.

    I may have actually hallucinated it because I sure as hell can't find it now. Balls.

    Either way, I like thinking it's supernatural, and I like that other people can still think that it's his mind dealing with what's happening. Either way he still makes the choice.

    Zampanov on
    r4zgei8pcfod.gif
    PSN/XBL: Zampanov -- Steam: Zampanov
  • jkylefultonjkylefulton Squid...or Kid? NNID - majpellRegistered User regular
    edited August 2008
    I hope it embiggens you.

    Oh, it will, it will indeed.

    I'm in the same boat as wiggins - I'll try a few issues of the new guys, and then decide based on whomever they get in the long term (good god, I hope this is why Brubaker is leaving UNCANNY). Or maybe they can get Jason Aaron to do the book, I don't know.

    Edit: I agree completely, Zamp. There's nothing wrong with leaving it up to the reader.

    jkylefulton on
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  • ZampanovZampanov You May Not Go Home Until Tonight Has Been MagicalRegistered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Lol! wrote: »
    I know there are people dropping the book now that Ennis is leaving
    But I think I'm going to at least ride out the next three arcs
    Get the short, crime novelist stories out of the way, see who they get as a full-timer after that
    Have they said anything about that by the way?

    I haven't heard anything yet. And the short preview of this first crime novelist guy seems like he's on point with the tone at least. Maybe if all three (I think it's three) guys are good at it, they can just alternate until it's canceled.

    Zampanov on
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    PSN/XBL: Zampanov -- Steam: Zampanov
  • Me Too!Me Too! __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2008
    If Bru or Aaron took over I'd shit mysef
    Jason Aaron writes the craziest shit
    Look at his first arc on Ghost Rider. Ghostly cannibals, gun-toting nurses, pissed off angels
    Shit was bananas

    Me Too! on
  • jkylefultonjkylefulton Squid...or Kid? NNID - majpellRegistered User regular
    edited August 2008
    You should be picking up SCALPED, wiggins. If he could do that with the Punisher, it could potentially be up there with the Ennis run.

    jkylefulton on
    tOkYVT2.jpg
  • Me Too!Me Too! __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2008
    I have never seen Scalped on my shelves
    Then again I've never looked very hard
    Are there any trades out? I'd like to at least finish the first arc, I read the first issue online

    Me Too! on
  • jkylefultonjkylefulton Squid...or Kid? NNID - majpellRegistered User regular
    edited August 2008
    I think there are two trades so far, with a third coming soon. I think the first trade might even have a "Jason Aaron Money Back Guarantee" or some such.

    jkylefulton on
    tOkYVT2.jpg
  • SalmonOfDoubtSalmonOfDoubt Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Man, as much as I loved Aaron's crazy-ass balls-to-the-wall awesome in Ghost Rider I can't help but think that sort of stuff would be incredibly jarring in MAX, which up until now has mostly been serious as fuck.

    Except for the whale, I guess.

    SalmonOfDoubt on
    heavensidesig80.jpg
    PiptheFair wrote: »
    killing children would be hilarious
    Olivaw wrote: »
    HELLO AND WELCOME TO THE PENNY ARCADE FORUMS

    PLEASE ENJOY YOUR STAY

    AND THIS PENIS
    Man, I don't want to read about this lady's broken vagina.
    NotACrook wrote: »
    I am sitting here trying to come up with a tiered system for rating child molesters.
    cock vore is fuckin hilarious
  • CrimsondudeCrimsondude Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    I could have sworn that I read somewhere, maybe in SDCC coverage of the Mondo Marvel panel, that it Jason Aaron will have a shot at Punisher after these next three arcs. I know I'm forgetting someone, but Hurwitz, Swierczynski, Huston and Aaron have all been mentioned so far as involved or "interested" or some other euphemism for "we can't really say yet."
    I think it's ambiguous enough that you don't necessarily have to see it as a 'pact with Death'. The guy snapped so that he could kill the fuck out of Charlie, there doesn't have to be anything supernatural about it.

    I think Ennis said in an interview that it was supposed to be Death talking to Frank.
    My favorite parallel to that is in Moon Knight when Marc and Khonshu are "talking" and admiring Frank's work, that Khonshu says that he'd dump Marc like a five-dollar whore for Frank if he didn't already belong to another.

    But then again, Marc is fucking crazy and thinks he can talk to an Egyptian god.

    Though it would be something to see if he addresses it if Charlie Huston does have an arc in Punisher.

    Crimsondude on
  • Me Too!Me Too! __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2008
    I think it's like "See how he wears the colors of his god?" over a shot of the skull shirt
    But yeah I would flip shit over that, seeing as someone else is writing the new Moon Knight arc

    Me Too! on
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