What you actually enjoy is dismissing out of hand/ignoring the opinions of those who disagree with you, and then restating your own opinions, ad nauseum, until whoever you're "arguing" with just throws up their hands in disgust and leaves you to run around in the hamster wheel that is your logic.
And before you accuse me of dismissing your opinions out of hand - it's totally what I'm doing. But at least I'm giving the courtesy of admitting it.
You've only been here a few weeks and your shtick is already old, you silly goose.
No, I'd seriously like to argue it--with actual reasoning and shit. Just because I haven't engaged in said arguments here, that doesn't mean I'm incapable of them. What do you want? How can I defend the book if I don't even know why you dislike it?
OremLK on
My zombie survival life simulator They Don't Sleep is out now on Steam if you want to check it out.
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The Black HunterThe key is a minimum of compromise, and a simple,unimpeachable reason to existRegistered Userregular
edited August 2008
You can't defend against someone disliking a book/game/movie, and everyone here knows this.
You can't defend against someone disliking a book/game/movie, and everyone here knows this.
So they just call names and then laugh
don't try to argue
Ain't nothing wrong with debating the relative merits of art.
For instance: Ender's Game is not just well-written (though it is that, in most ways that count), it's an important novel because it tackles key moral issues and discusses them in a meaningful way. At its core, its theme is whether the morality of an action depends on the knowledge and motivation of the actor. This is an old theme, but Ender's Game communicates it in a particularly powerful way, due to Card's strong understanding of storytelling.
The novel puts its main character through trials so potent that the reader sympathizes with Ender strongly enough that at times he in effect becomes Ender. (For the vast majority of people that the story works for at all, that is.) It does this in an honest, well-planned way, with complex characters who always act in-character, and a plot and setting that both maintain strong internal consistency.
So when Ender unknowingly commits genocide, the reader feels with him the shock and horror at the action he has just committed. Even though he cannot be held responsible for the action by his peers and superiors, who manipulated him into taking it in the first place, he cannot--and should not--forgive himself for what he has done, until he makes it right. And perhaps not even then.
Whether you agree with the philosophy the novel espouses or not, this is an important theme to discuss. Most find that it is communicated honestly and effectively by an entertaining story, which is why it is so well-regarded today, has sold so many copies, and won both of Science Fiction's most prestigious awards.
OremLK on
My zombie survival life simulator They Don't Sleep is out now on Steam if you want to check it out.
Oh, yeah, that reminds me. Because I wasn't around to mention it earlier:
Ender's Game is the most overrated shit.
Where the hell is Naporeon when I need him? Tag-team ragging on Ender's Game is, like, our thing.
Really, all it was was a bunch of sci-fi wish fulfillment fantasy, which is almost all of the fantasy genre and quite a bit of sci-fi. Card is somewhere in the middle of the pack, there are certainly bigger hacks, but at least the Ender series has popcorn entertainment value.
Yeah, Card isn't the worst but that doesn't mean he's good. His work is firmly planted in the teen demographic and you shouldn't be enjoying his work once you're out of high school or you have some fucking growing up to do
Oh, yeah, that reminds me. Because I wasn't around to mention it earlier:
Ender's Game is the most overrated shit.
Where the hell is Naporeon when I need him? Tag-team ragging on Ender's Game is, like, our thing.
Really, all it was was a bunch of sci-fi wish fulfillment fantasy, which is almost all of the fantasy genre and quite a bit of sci-fi. Card is somewhere in the middle of the pack, there are certainly bigger hacks, but at least the Ender series has popcorn entertainment value.
Yeah, Card isn't the worst but that doesn't mean he's good. His work is firmly planted in the teen demographic and you shouldn't be enjoying his work once you're out of high school or you have some fucking growing up to do
Or, you know, you could enjoy for the retro factor and remembering what it was like when you were younger.
Wish-fulfillment is certainly a good way to put it, but it's also empowerment literature for young nerds.
Yeah, Card isn't the worst but that doesn't mean he's good. His work is firmly planted in the teen demographic and you shouldn't be enjoying his work once you're out of high school or you have some fucking growing up to do
Or, you know, you could enjoy for the retro factor and remembering what it was like when you were younger.
Wish-fulfillment is certainly a good way to put it, but it's also empowerment literature for young nerds.
I think it's empowering to the same extent that watching some anime about an awkward boy that ends up being the only one that can pilot some advanced mecha that can save the human race and also of course ends up surrounded by beautiful girls is. Which is not at all.
Also, I haven't read a discworld book in several years and I have no interest in reading any more. They were enjoyable enough at first, but it all just kind of runs together and becomes rather trite after reading most of the series.
Druhim on
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Quoththe RavenMiami, FL FOR REALRegistered Userregular
edited August 2008
Dru, you are wrong about Discworld but that's ok, because otters are fucking adorable.
Yeah, Card isn't the worst but that doesn't mean he's good. His work is firmly planted in the teen demographic and you shouldn't be enjoying his work once you're out of high school or you have some fucking growing up to do
Or, you know, you could enjoy for the retro factor and remembering what it was like when you were younger.
Wish-fulfillment is certainly a good way to put it, but it's also empowerment literature for young nerds.
I think it's empowering to the same extent that watching some anime about an awkward boy that ends up being the only one that can pilot some advanced mecha that can save the human race and also of course ends up surrounded by beautiful girls is. Which is not at all.
Also, I haven't read a discworld book in several years and I have no interest in reading any more. They were enjoyable enough at first, but it all just kind of runs together and becomes rather trite after reading most of the series.
The difference is that Ender was not always surrounded by beautiful girls or anything, he was always alone and people more powerful than him were always bringing him down. In the face of that he still succeeds, which is what could be empowering.
Yeah Ender had a pretty shitty time of it
Their plan for him from day one involved isolating him from his peers so that he wouldn't form any attachments
And the administrators kept heaping shit on him even after he succeeded
eh, I think the book plays into the assumption most outcasts hold that society has made them an outcast, that it's everyone else's fault instead of accepting responsibility for their lack of social skills and actually learning to get along with people
and I think Ender's Game plays right into that mindset
he's so brave! everyone was working against him and he still succeeded! I can totally identify because no one likes me at school just because I only wash my hair once a week and constantly have cheeto dust on my shirts! I'll show them!
Druhim on
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Quoththe RavenMiami, FL FOR REALRegistered Userregular
edited August 2008
I honestly find that Card has a complete inability to write different voices. Every character sounds the same. Women, children, foreigners... all the same.
I never identified with Ender
I just thought that the way he came up with really mindfuck ways of winning, from everyone else's perspective, was pretty cool
Also the fact that his main philosophy in combat was essentially "Look at it differently"
eh, I think the book plays into the assumption most outcasts hold that society has made them an outcast, that it's everyone else's fault instead of accepting responsibility for their lack of social skills and actually learning to get along with people
and I think Ender's Game plays right into that mindset
he's so brave! everyone was working against him and he still succeeded! I can totally identify because no one likes me at school just because I only wash my hair once a week and constantly have cheeto dust on my shirts! I'll show them!
Which would be just as narrow-minded as assuming that everyone who is picked on in school is only picked on because they are dirty pigs.
I never identified with Ender
I just thought that the way he came up with really mindfuck ways of winning, from everyone else's perspective, was pretty cool
Also the fact that his main philosophy in combat was essentially "Look at it differently"
This is why Ender's Game is on the required reading list for the Marine Corps.
I can see that
And that is seriously fucking great
Ender's last battles, both in the school and against the buggers, are basically the best examples of creative problem solving
"Alright fuck we can't kill these guys, let's just sneak around them"
"Alright fuck we're getting destroyed, let's just blow up their whole planet BOOM problem solved and now I'm going to cry because I was lied to"
it delves into the stupid a bit in the second half
but it's far from shit
It has some good stuff to it, but I feel that most of the good stuff it has would be better suited to a video game. It is, however, pretty shitty overall. Look at the character names. That's clue number one. Look at the fact that like 25% of the book is the main character talking to a virtual librarian on the internet. I appreciate the criticism of what I'd call more or less "pre-fabricated society" and all that, but the book is loaded with painful, boring backstory and trytoohard characters. Oh, and the part where the author has this brilliant insight that a recreational drug, a religion, and a computer virus are all the same thing? Please, get over yourself. Making a shitty analogy that works only in the most superficial ways and then avoiding discussing it in any depth is not a sign of a good writer.
and snow crash, man, there's some good ideas in there, but fuck, it has great pace at the start and then it gets fucking slow and retarded and holy shit inconsistent and stupid
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Having a kid be some super soldier is dumber than heeeellllll
note: I still haven't read any O.S.C. books
Hehehe.
Saying you enjoy an argument is misleading.
What you actually enjoy is dismissing out of hand/ignoring the opinions of those who disagree with you, and then restating your own opinions, ad nauseum, until whoever you're "arguing" with just throws up their hands in disgust and leaves you to run around in the hamster wheel that is your logic.
And before you accuse me of dismissing your opinions out of hand - it's totally what I'm doing. But at least I'm giving the courtesy of admitting it.
You've only been here a few weeks and your shtick is already old, you silly goose.
So they just call names and then laugh
don't try to argue
I've had a whole fistload of Ender's Game debates 'round here.
But there ain't no way that fellow is worth the hassle.
Ain't nothing wrong with debating the relative merits of art.
For instance: Ender's Game is not just well-written (though it is that, in most ways that count), it's an important novel because it tackles key moral issues and discusses them in a meaningful way. At its core, its theme is whether the morality of an action depends on the knowledge and motivation of the actor. This is an old theme, but Ender's Game communicates it in a particularly powerful way, due to Card's strong understanding of storytelling.
The novel puts its main character through trials so potent that the reader sympathizes with Ender strongly enough that at times he in effect becomes Ender. (For the vast majority of people that the story works for at all, that is.) It does this in an honest, well-planned way, with complex characters who always act in-character, and a plot and setting that both maintain strong internal consistency.
Whether you agree with the philosophy the novel espouses or not, this is an important theme to discuss. Most find that it is communicated honestly and effectively by an entertaining story, which is why it is so well-regarded today, has sold so many copies, and won both of Science Fiction's most prestigious awards.
The people next door are now wondering why roars of laughter are coming from my bathroom
AIM: Yarrfooey
Really, all it was was a bunch of sci-fi wish fulfillment fantasy, which is almost all of the fantasy genre and quite a bit of sci-fi. Card is somewhere in the middle of the pack, there are certainly bigger hacks, but at least the Ender series has popcorn entertainment value.
Just in case this hasn't been addressed, the first three novels are the weakest and you should by no means stop with the first one.
Or, you know, you could enjoy for the retro factor and remembering what it was like when you were younger.
Wish-fulfillment is certainly a good way to put it, but it's also empowerment literature for young nerds.
Also, I haven't read a discworld book in several years and I have no interest in reading any more. They were enjoyable enough at first, but it all just kind of runs together and becomes rather trite after reading most of the series.
The difference is that Ender was not always surrounded by beautiful girls or anything, he was always alone and people more powerful than him were always bringing him down. In the face of that he still succeeds, which is what could be empowering.
Their plan for him from day one involved isolating him from his peers so that he wouldn't form any attachments
And the administrators kept heaping shit on him even after he succeeded
and I think Ender's Game plays right into that mindset
he's so brave! everyone was working against him and he still succeeded! I can totally identify because no one likes me at school just because I only wash my hair once a week and constantly have cheeto dust on my shirts! I'll show them!
I just thought that the way he came up with really mindfuck ways of winning, from everyone else's perspective, was pretty cool
Also the fact that his main philosophy in combat was essentially "Look at it differently"
Which would be just as narrow-minded as assuming that everyone who is picked on in school is only picked on because they are dirty pigs.
This is why Ender's Game is on the required reading list for the Marine Corps.
Because goddamn
It promotes creative problem solving and working as a team to overcome challenges.
And that is seriously fucking great
Ender's last battles, both in the school and against the buggers, are basically the best examples of creative problem solving
"Alright fuck we can't kill these guys, let's just sneak around them"
"Alright fuck we're getting destroyed, let's just blow up their whole planet BOOM problem solved and now I'm going to cry because I was lied to"
It has some good stuff to it, but I feel that most of the good stuff it has would be better suited to a video game. It is, however, pretty shitty overall. Look at the character names. That's clue number one. Look at the fact that like 25% of the book is the main character talking to a virtual librarian on the internet. I appreciate the criticism of what I'd call more or less "pre-fabricated society" and all that, but the book is loaded with painful, boring backstory and trytoohard characters. Oh, and the part where the author has this brilliant insight that a recreational drug, a religion, and a computer virus are all the same thing? Please, get over yourself. Making a shitty analogy that works only in the most superficial ways and then avoiding discussing it in any depth is not a sign of a good writer.
muah muah muah