In a What If, it bonded with a kid first or something, or someone very, very good and realised that its desire to get revenge on Peter wasn't worth what it was doing.
But... the whole point of Peter rejecting it was that it made him a bad person.
That makes no sense.
MuddBudd on
There's no plan, there's no race to be run
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
In a What If, it bonded with a kid first or something, or someone very, very good and realised that its desire to get revenge on Peter wasn't worth what it was doing.
But... the whole point of Peter rejecting it was that it made him a bad person.
That makes no sense.
He had a lot of hatred within him though. Even if hes a good guy he resents all the people who hate on him despite doing good and wishes he could kill villains and put a final end to them instead of fucking about with them over and over.
Granted I'mt aking that from the animated series but still.
The symbiote made him close to acting on these desires.
In a What If, it bonded with a kid first or something, or someone very, very good and realised that its desire to get revenge on Peter wasn't worth what it was doing.
But... the whole point of Peter rejecting it was that it made him a bad person.
That makes no sense.
In every universe where Ben doesn't die, Peter kind of is a bad person. Could be that that's his natural state, and the symbiote was only indulging that because it thought it was what its host wanted without personally having any idea of its own of what good or bad even mean.
In a What If, it bonded with a kid first or something, or someone very, very good and realised that its desire to get revenge on Peter wasn't worth what it was doing.
But... the whole point of Peter rejecting it was that it made him a bad person.
That makes no sense.
In every universe where Ben doesn't die, Peter kind of is a bad person. Could be that that's his natural state, and the symbiote was only indulging that because it thought it was what its host wanted without personally having any idea of its own of what good or bad even mean.
He was on that route in the main universe with his wrestling and showbusiness stuff. It seems to be that he's always the loser, gets the power and decides to take the attention and power route to make up for it except in universes where someone he loves dies which snaps him out of it.
In a What If, it bonded with a kid first or something, or someone very, very good and realised that its desire to get revenge on Peter wasn't worth what it was doing.
But... the whole point of Peter rejecting it was that it made him a bad person.
That makes no sense.
In every universe where Ben doesn't die, Peter kind of is a bad person. Could be that that's his natural state, and the symbiote was only indulging that because it thought it was what its host wanted without personally having any idea of its own of what good or bad even mean.
He was on that route in the main universe with his wrestling and showbusiness stuff. It seems to be that he's always the loser, gets the power and decides to take the attention and power route to make up for it except in universes where someone he loves dies which snaps him out of it.
They did a "What If" issue where he didn't get the power, but Flash, Betty Brant, etc did... He eventually ended up with the power in all of them as Spiderman without them ALL dying (Flash did die though I think).
sportzboytjw on
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The word "Carnage" should be censored from everywhere.
This is tragically wrong. Carnage makes -so- much more sense than Venom.
Wha...buh....what????
I'm not saying he's a great Spider-Man villain, but rather that the character makes so much more sense than Venom.
Think about it: Venom is a journalist who apparently is just a jerk who elevates to murderer because his career gets accidentally damaged. Later retcons like his cancer make this even more illogical by trying to make him a 'nice guy'. His quasi-morality has basically no internal consistency. Moreover, the psychotic-lover concept of the symbiote, while interesting, is never fully explored because the symbiote never just -claims- Parker. I mean hell, it could crawl onto him while he's asleep, move him to a location too far from sonics or flame, and wait-out the time it takes to fully merge if its so obsessed with him.
Carnage, on the other hand, makes perfect sense: a psycho killer gets a weapon that lets him be a better psycho killer, and what does he do? Go on a god-damned rampage, constantly, until he's in jail. There's no elaborate scheming, or ridiculous obsessions. There is just a killer, unleashed from normal physical limitations. The symbiote has no inane motivations, just a childlike bond with a much, much stronger personality to the point of complete subservience.
I can kinda see Carnage as a reflection of Spidey though - another Spider-villain living by the maxim of 'with great power comes no responsibility'. That's all I got.
The word "Carnage" should be censored from everywhere.
This is tragically wrong. Carnage makes -so- much more sense than Venom.
Wha...buh....what????
I'm not saying he's a great Spider-Man villain, but rather that the character makes so much more sense than Venom.
Think about it: Venom is a journalist who apparently is just a jerk who elevates to murderer because his career gets accidentally damaged. Later retcons like his cancer make this even more illogical by trying to make him a 'nice guy'. His quasi-morality has basically no internal consistency. Moreover, the psychotic-lover concept of the symbiote, while interesting, is never fully explored because the symbiote never just -claims- Parker. I mean hell, it could crawl onto him while he's asleep, move him to a location too far from sonics or flame, and wait-out the time it takes to fully merge if its so obsessed with him.
Carnage, on the other hand, makes perfect sense: a psycho killer gets a weapon that lets him be a better psycho killer, and what does he do? Go on a god-damned rampage, constantly, until he's in jail. There's no elaborate scheming, or ridiculous obsessions. There is just a killer, unleashed from normal physical limitations. The symbiote has no inane motivations, just a childlike bond with a much, much stronger personality to the point of complete subservience.
I don't agree with you. For one thing, the reason he elevates to murderer is because he gets a crazy alien symbiote attached to him. That's a good enough reason for me.
I think you're romanticizing Carnage as well. I think of him more as "Hey we have this Venom guy that's really popular. Why don't we basically make another Venom but he's crazy and red and, get this, his host will have red hair too! Let's go watch 90210."
The word "Carnage" should be censored from everywhere.
This is tragically wrong. Carnage makes -so- much more sense than Venom.
Wha...buh....what????
I'm not saying he's a great Spider-Man villain, but rather that the character makes so much more sense than Venom.
Think about it: Venom is a journalist who apparently is just a jerk who elevates to murderer because his career gets accidentally damaged. Later retcons like his cancer make this even more illogical by trying to make him a 'nice guy'. His quasi-morality has basically no internal consistency. Moreover, the psychotic-lover concept of the symbiote, while interesting, is never fully explored because the symbiote never just -claims- Parker. I mean hell, it could crawl onto him while he's asleep, move him to a location too far from sonics or flame, and wait-out the time it takes to fully merge if its so obsessed with him.
Carnage, on the other hand, makes perfect sense: a psycho killer gets a weapon that lets him be a better psycho killer, and what does he do? Go on a god-damned rampage, constantly, until he's in jail. There's no elaborate scheming, or ridiculous obsessions. There is just a killer, unleashed from normal physical limitations. The symbiote has no inane motivations, just a childlike bond with a much, much stronger personality to the point of complete subservience.
I don't agree with you. For one thing, the reason he elevates to murderer is because he gets a crazy alien symbiote attached to him. That's a good enough reason for me.
I think you're romanticizing Carnage as well. I think of him more as "Hey we have this Venom guy that's really popular. Why don't we basically make another Venom but he's crazy and red and, get this, his host will have red hair too! Let's go watch 90210."
i've always seen it as not so much that he suddenly becomes a murdering psycho, it's more that he already had a lot of repressed anger, due to his messed-up relationship with his father, getting fired and losing his wife etc, and then he gets the symbiote which not only allows him but actually encourages him to act on that anger. In that context it's pretty believable that he becomes Venom. And I'd argue that the conflict between his morality and the symbiote trying to push him to kill was actually portrayed pretty consistently.
I'm pretty much ignoring all the cancer stuff here because I think it's a bunch of utterly unneccesary bullshit, by the way.
fray on
"I told you," said Ford. "Eddies in the space-time continuum."
"And this is his sofa, is it?" said Arthur.
I would guess not, as I think in Thunderbolts we've seen Venom partially retract from areas of Gargan's body (ie when Swordsman zapped him) but I don't recall seeing the Scorpion suit underneath. I may be wrong though.
Hi. Murder is murder. Until you can show me where Punisher or Venom had a government sanction to kill someone, or was operating under the normal legal loopholes for killing (e.g. self defense), he was a murderer.
He killed people illegally, without legal justification, so he murdered them. A person who murders is a murderer. Then, he ate their brains.
(Yes, obv. Gargan is legally sanctioned in Thunderbolts. I'm talking about Brock)
I am not disputing that, but you cannot deny there is a clear and significant difference between someone like the Brock venom, who kills only deliberately and with purpose and indiscriminate killers like Carnage.
I even said earlier in the thread "Venom is a murderer like the Punisher is"
I am not disputing that, but you cannot deny there is a clear and significant difference between someone like the Brock venom, who kills only deliberately and with purpose and indiscriminate killers like Carnage.
I even said earlier in the thread "Venom is a murderer like the Punisher is"
There's a difference only in scale, not nature.
Carnage kills more, but he isn't committing "murder" in any substantively different form than Punisher and Venom (Brock). The suggestion that it's somehow less immoral to murder a criminal than an innocent is a rather reprehensible and insupportable moral position. Murder is murder.
Don't get me wrong: killing 10 people is worse than killing 1, but it's not different in nature.
In fairness: I thought your "Venom is a murderer like the Punisher is" was a sarcastic comment, i.e. saying neither were murderers. My mistake then.
The key though is that the Brock Venom and Punisher and any other character like that see themselves as being different.
Obviously to Spider-Man its just as bad when one of them kills but thier own self-image is an important character aspect and frankly makes them much more compelling to read about that a mindless killer.
Balefuego on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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sportzboytjwsqueeeeeezzeeeesome more tax breaks outRegistered Userregular
edited September 2008
Nah, I don't think Spider-man sees it as just as bad, or he'd put more effort into catching Frank. Sure, he thinks it's wrong, but he sees in Frank a "moral system" that just isn't present in villians, making Frank, while not someone he likes, someone he sort of accepts.
sportzboytjw on
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please don't start the "how does punisher work in the marvel universe/why isn't he giving spider-man guns/ why isn't he in jail/whatever" nonsense in here.
those brit panels are awesome. i keep meaning to try a kirkman image book some time, but i worry that i would buy them all. can't really afford the few i am buying right now
If nothing else, this thread has got me curious enough about Brit to go pick up an issue; those last 3 panels were damn funny.
Judas on
Hard pressed on my right. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver.
Situation excellent. I am attacking.
- General Ferdinand Foch
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sportzboytjwsqueeeeeezzeeeesome more tax breaks outRegistered Userregular
edited September 2008
I bought a brit thing a while back... it was kind of like a premium super-sized issue that had nice binding and a stiff cover, I didn't realize they were publishing more. I liked it.
sportzboytjw on
Walkerdog on MTGO
TylerJ on League of Legends (it's free and fun!)
It's really worth picking up. And it's a fairly new title as well, so it's pretty easy to catch up. Two trades and you're into the current arc.
If you've ever read Invincible it's almost exactly like that, except that instead of the story being from the perspective of a young hero finding his feet and getting to know the business, it's the perspective of a jaded, cynical, crotchety old guy who has seen it all a billion times before and is more than a little tired of it. It's pretty much exactly the same kind of humour, and drama, in both titles though. Well worth a look.
Is the art by Kevin O'Neill? Because it sure looks like it.
Nah, it's Mr. Nate Bellegarde, of Hector Plasm and Invincible Presents: Atom Eve semi-fame.
And yes, everyone should buy Brit. There's currently two TPBs out; one by Robert Kirkman, with art by Tony Moore and Cliff Rathburn, and one by Bruce Brown with Rathburn on art again.
They're both excellent, but I liked the second one more. I plugged Brit in the Goddamn Batman Would Have Words With Thee thread, and people seemed to dig it there too. Definitely one of the best books nobody's reading.
Posts
Wha...buh....what????
But... the whole point of Peter rejecting it was that it made him a bad person.
That makes no sense.
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
He had a lot of hatred within him though. Even if hes a good guy he resents all the people who hate on him despite doing good and wishes he could kill villains and put a final end to them instead of fucking about with them over and over.
Granted I'mt aking that from the animated series but still.
The symbiote made him close to acting on these desires.
In every universe where Ben doesn't die, Peter kind of is a bad person. Could be that that's his natural state, and the symbiote was only indulging that because it thought it was what its host wanted without personally having any idea of its own of what good or bad even mean.
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
He was on that route in the main universe with his wrestling and showbusiness stuff. It seems to be that he's always the loser, gets the power and decides to take the attention and power route to make up for it except in universes where someone he loves dies which snaps him out of it.
Brock was a vindictive prick, but he also had a very strict personal morality
hence lethal protector venom
They did a "What If" issue where he didn't get the power, but Flash, Betty Brant, etc did... He eventually ended up with the power in all of them as Spiderman without them ALL dying (Flash did die though I think).
TylerJ on League of Legends (it's free and fun!)
I'm not saying he's a great Spider-Man villain, but rather that the character makes so much more sense than Venom.
Think about it: Venom is a journalist who apparently is just a jerk who elevates to murderer because his career gets accidentally damaged. Later retcons like his cancer make this even more illogical by trying to make him a 'nice guy'. His quasi-morality has basically no internal consistency. Moreover, the psychotic-lover concept of the symbiote, while interesting, is never fully explored because the symbiote never just -claims- Parker. I mean hell, it could crawl onto him while he's asleep, move him to a location too far from sonics or flame, and wait-out the time it takes to fully merge if its so obsessed with him.
Carnage, on the other hand, makes perfect sense: a psycho killer gets a weapon that lets him be a better psycho killer, and what does he do? Go on a god-damned rampage, constantly, until he's in jail. There's no elaborate scheming, or ridiculous obsessions. There is just a killer, unleashed from normal physical limitations. The symbiote has no inane motivations, just a childlike bond with a much, much stronger personality to the point of complete subservience.
the eddie brock version anyway, obviously the mac gargan venom is very different
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
The Gargan Venom, however, has on at least one occasion sated his appetite with a human arm.
( poor Steel Spider )
Situation excellent. I am attacking.
- General Ferdinand Foch
I wouldn't mind seeing that Z-List curiosity again.
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
I don't agree with you. For one thing, the reason he elevates to murderer is because he gets a crazy alien symbiote attached to him. That's a good enough reason for me.
I think you're romanticizing Carnage as well. I think of him more as "Hey we have this Venom guy that's really popular. Why don't we basically make another Venom but he's crazy and red and, get this, his host will have red hair too! Let's go watch 90210."
i've always seen it as not so much that he suddenly becomes a murdering psycho, it's more that he already had a lot of repressed anger, due to his messed-up relationship with his father, getting fired and losing his wife etc, and then he gets the symbiote which not only allows him but actually encourages him to act on that anger. In that context it's pretty believable that he becomes Venom. And I'd argue that the conflict between his morality and the symbiote trying to push him to kill was actually portrayed pretty consistently.
I'm pretty much ignoring all the cancer stuff here because I think it's a bunch of utterly unneccesary bullshit, by the way.
"And this is his sofa, is it?" said Arthur.
I don't think so, but I have been wrong before.
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
Hi. Murder is murder. Until you can show me where Punisher or Venom had a government sanction to kill someone, or was operating under the normal legal loopholes for killing (e.g. self defense), he was a murderer.
He killed people illegally, without legal justification, so he murdered them. A person who murders is a murderer. Then, he ate their brains.
(Yes, obv. Gargan is legally sanctioned in Thunderbolts. I'm talking about Brock)
I even said earlier in the thread "Venom is a murderer like the Punisher is"
There's a difference only in scale, not nature.
Carnage kills more, but he isn't committing "murder" in any substantively different form than Punisher and Venom (Brock). The suggestion that it's somehow less immoral to murder a criminal than an innocent is a rather reprehensible and insupportable moral position. Murder is murder.
Don't get me wrong: killing 10 people is worse than killing 1, but it's not different in nature.
In fairness: I thought your "Venom is a murderer like the Punisher is" was a sarcastic comment, i.e. saying neither were murderers. My mistake then.
Everything you say is wrong because you like Carnage
THE END
You know what time it is?
IT'S BRIT TIME!
Brit comes to check his sister out of the hospital.
Poor Donald :<
I'm not sure why this part is even in the issue, but I love it.
Fastball Special, Backyard Style.
Space Woodstock is the best Woodstock. Yes, even better than Peanuts Woodstock.
Just call me David Coppafeel.
Now, for the best moment of this issue. Scratch that, the best moment of the entire series.
Obviously to Spider-Man its just as bad when one of them kills but thier own self-image is an important character aspect and frankly makes them much more compelling to read about that a mindless killer.
TylerJ on League of Legends (it's free and fun!)
those brit panels are awesome. i keep meaning to try a kirkman image book some time, but i worry that i would buy them all. can't really afford the few i am buying right now
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
Situation excellent. I am attacking.
- General Ferdinand Foch
TylerJ on League of Legends (it's free and fun!)
I'm a huge fan of the man's style, and that would catapult this Brit to "must-buy" category for me.
Situation excellent. I am attacking.
- General Ferdinand Foch
If you've ever read Invincible it's almost exactly like that, except that instead of the story being from the perspective of a young hero finding his feet and getting to know the business, it's the perspective of a jaded, cynical, crotchety old guy who has seen it all a billion times before and is more than a little tired of it. It's pretty much exactly the same kind of humour, and drama, in both titles though. Well worth a look.
Nah, it's Mr. Nate Bellegarde, of Hector Plasm and Invincible Presents: Atom Eve semi-fame.
And yes, everyone should buy Brit. There's currently two TPBs out; one by Robert Kirkman, with art by Tony Moore and Cliff Rathburn, and one by Bruce Brown with Rathburn on art again.
They're both excellent, but I liked the second one more. I plugged Brit in the Goddamn Batman Would Have Words With Thee thread, and people seemed to dig it there too. Definitely one of the best books nobody's reading.
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