But some teams have more money. Surely their ability to offer $Texas as opposed to $SouthDakota to a prospective young star is Unfair and must be balanced.
My sarcasm filter is broken, so forgive me...
This is exactly what I'm arguing against. There exist competitive games where even given a gargantuan advantage, the underdog still has a fighting chance. There is no reason WoW pvp brackets should not also be this way.
Not to mention that there's still been situations where one side was completely outmatched. I don't follow sports, but something tells me that there's been teams that played some pretty terrible seasons.
Correct, and in actual competitive leagues, those "terrible" seasons are still at a ~30% winning level. That is what makes the leagues competitive.
Under your belief system, do you condone exploiting? Actual cheating? If not, why not? They are, of course, just another method of winning, of ensuring your victory over your opponents.
You understand that exploiting and cheating are distinct from twinking, so why does it matter how he feels about them? The best idea is to design a system that will create the kind of competition you want so that the participants don't have to play referee and can just "play 'til the whistle blows."
They are very seperate, but I'm curious if "the ends justify the means" extends beyond slapping a 12 stam enchant on level 38 boots or not.
The school I went to has no bearing on twinking either, but he felt free to ask that out of left field all the same.
PS: I'm 28. I'm way beyond that "not keeping score because it might hurt someone's feelings" bullshit.
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
But some teams have more money. Surely their ability to offer $Texas as opposed to $SouthDakota to a prospective young star is Unfair and must be balanced.
My sarcasm filter is broken, so forgive me...
This is exactly what I'm arguing against. There exist competitive games where even given a gargantuan advantage, the underdog still has a fighting chance. There is no reason WoW pvp brackets should not also be this way.
Um...they are this way.
Just because you roll over and play dead when you see a twink doesn't mean everyone else has to.
How about a system where you get a some sort of rank or rating for winning. Then Blizzard can match everyone up based on their rating and that will fix everything!
How about a system where you get a some sort of rank or rating for winning. Then Blizzard can match everyone up based on their rating and that will fix everything!
Funny, they tried that with the arenas.
People have been breaking it for every season since, or so I hear. I gave up during the bullshit that was S3.
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
Just because you roll over and play dead when you see a twink doesn't mean everyone else has to.
It's the same difference.
Do you really believe that anyone has a fighting chance against a character with 3 times the hitpoints, 50% avoidance, 5 times the crit chance, double the weapon damage, and a run speed increase*? Maybe if the twink is a gerbil with no paws, sure.
*all made up numbers.
EDIT: God, arenas. Blizzard really dropped the ball. Personal rating, teams matched up based on average or weighted average or something similar, never resets. Done, problems solved. Douchebags can come down and tear your shit up if they want, but only if they lose as many games as they win, since they will otherwise be matched up against similarly skilled/geared opponents. There is no reason to allow a reset, since when your rating is low, you'll play worse teams and it will go up. Seriously, why did they make it complicated? That's what the whole point/rating system thing they use was designed for in the first place!
How about a system where you get a some sort of rank or rating for winning. Then Blizzard can match everyone up based on their rating and that will fix everything!
Funny, they tried that with the arenas.
People have been breaking it for every season since, or so I hear. I gave up during the bullshit that was S3.
How about a system where you get a some sort of rank or rating for winning. Then Blizzard can match everyone up based on their rating and that will fix everything!
But some teams have more money. Surely their ability to offer $Texas as opposed to $SouthDakota to a prospective young star is Unfair and must be balanced.
My sarcasm filter is broken, so forgive me...
This is exactly what I'm arguing against. There exist competitive games where even given a gargantuan advantage, the underdog still has a fighting chance. There is no reason WoW pvp brackets should not also be this way.
They are that way. The players just aren't as smart as your sports teams. They do have every opportunity to gear themselves out, or with your sports analogy, look for the best players.
If a sports team decides to fill their roster with whatever's easily available to them from local universities, it's their own fault when they lose terribly.
Just because you roll over and play dead when you see a twink doesn't mean everyone else has to.
It's the same difference.
Do you really believe that anyone has a fighting chance against a character with 3 times the hitpoints, 50% avoidance, 5 times the crit chance, double the weapon damage, and a run speed increase*? Maybe if the twink is a gerbil with no paws, sure.
*all made up numbers.
Yes, other people who care enough about winning to gear their character properly stand this chance.
How about a system where you get a some sort of rank or rating for winning. Then Blizzard can match everyone up based on their rating and that will fix everything!
Funny, they tried that with the arenas.
People have been breaking it for every season since, or so I hear. I gave up during the bullshit that was S3.
Perhaps I need [sarcasm] tags?
No no, it's cool, I saw what you did there.
I just can't help but shit on the arenas. I consider it karmic balance, after they shat all over me. Gladiator teams with weapons and shoulders in the 1300's has a way of ruining your day.
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
People seem to be missing the obvious point that you require a main character to twink your alt from. That shit takes time and effort. Or do you think money/epic loot/massive buff drops just grow on trees?
PeregrineFalcon on
Looking for a DX:HR OnLive code for my kid brother.
Can trade TF2 items or whatever else you're interested in. PM me.
Just because you roll over and play dead when you see a twink doesn't mean everyone else has to.
It's the same difference.
Do you really believe that anyone has a fighting chance against a character with 3 times the hitpoints, 50% avoidance, 5 times the crit chance, double the weapon damage, and a run speed increase*? Maybe if the twink is a gerbil with no paws, sure.
*all made up numbers.
Clearly those are all made up numbers.
There's no tier where you are allowed enchants so powerful that a twink is exponentially stronger than a properly geared player of that level.
Obviously, if you've been neglecting your gear and you hop into a BG you'll be underpowered. And obviously if you hop into a BG at a lower level than the top level of that tier, you're likely to get stomped.
But if you take the time, as you're leveling up, to keep your gear up to date; no amount of equipment or enchants on a player is going to be so grossly overpowered that they can't be defeated.
Too many people just see the glow on a weapon and just lay down and die.
And then go bitch about it on an interweb forum.
EDIT: Except, ironically, the 70 BG's. A S3/4 player is going to stomp a new 70 with greens and blues. But this isn't what is being bitched about here.
Obviously equipping gear is an exploit of the system. I should go in BGs in greys, not white, that would be OP to the people who only own greys. My feeling of accomplishment and pride in not exploiting the system will be all the reward I need at the end of the BG.
They are that way. The players just aren't as smart as your sports teams. They do have every opportunity to gear themselves out, or with your sports analogy, look for the best players.
If a sports team decides to fill their roster with whatever's easily available to them from local universities, it's their own fault when they lose terribly.
edit: late post, sorry
I guess my analogy failed...
Sports teams can't do this, they have limited funds, operate under draft rules, etc. They are still competitive because the rules of the game allow them to be. WoW is not this way. WoW requires every player to have a 100 year history in the largest market in the world and the associated revenue.
People seem to be missing the obvious point that you require a main character to twink your alt from. That shit takes time and effort. Or do you think money/epic loot/massive buff drops just grow on trees?
Exactly. That's why they've obviously earned the right to use that character to help twink their alt... good point.
They are that way. The players just aren't as smart as your sports teams. They do have every opportunity to gear themselves out, or with your sports analogy, look for the best players.
If a sports team decides to fill their roster with whatever's easily available to them from local universities, it's their own fault when they lose terribly.
edit: late post, sorry
I guess my analogy failed...
Sports teams can't do this, they have limited funds, operate under draft rules, etc. They are still competitive because the rules of the game allow them to be. WoW is not this way. WoW requires every player to have a 100 year history in the largest market in the world and the associated revenue.
Obviously equipping gear is an exploit of the system. I should go in BGs in greys, not white, that would be OP to the people who only own greys. My feeling of accomplishment and pride in not exploiting the system will be all the reward I need at the end of the BG.
Oh for fuck's sake, is the view nice up on that cross or what?
Obviously equipping gear is an exploit of the system. I should go in BGs in greys, not white, that would be OP to the people who only own greys. My feeling of accomplishment and pride in not exploiting the system will be all the reward I need at the end of the BG.
Oh for fuck's sake, is the view nice up on that cross or what?
Really? Because he's not the one playing martyr about supposedly not having a chance.
Obviously equipping gear is an exploit of the system. I should go in BGs in greys, not white, that would be OP to the people who only own greys. My feeling of accomplishment and pride in not exploiting the system will be all the reward I need at the end of the BG.
Oh for fuck's sake, is the view nice up on that cross or what?
They are that way. The players just aren't as smart as your sports teams. They do have every opportunity to gear themselves out, or with your sports analogy, look for the best players.
If a sports team decides to fill their roster with whatever's easily available to them from local universities, it's their own fault when they lose terribly.
edit: late post, sorry
I guess my analogy failed...
Sports teams can't do this, they have limited funds, operate under draft rules, etc. They are still competitive because the rules of the game allow them to be. WoW is not this way. WoW requires every player to have a 100 year history in the largest market in the world and the associated revenue.
WoW is also a video game.
And the scaled time you refer to comes out to be a couple months in reality.
Obviously equipping gear is an exploit of the system. I should go in BGs in greys, not white, that would be OP to the people who only own greys. My feeling of accomplishment and pride in not exploiting the system will be all the reward I need at the end of the BG.
Oh for fuck's sake, is the view nice up on that cross or what?
Really? Because he's not the one playing martyr about supposedly not having a chance.
Oh yea, there's plenty of bitching in the thread, but from the get-go he has been spouting all this vow of poverty bullshit and acting like twinking is the same thing as trying to play well.
Re: Twink equipment enchants are not overpowered - I don't know if I'm doing this right, but I just searched for items with a required level between 15-19 and more than 10 stamina. There are none. Nethercleft Leg Armor gives 40 stamina.
A few months spent before I can pvp with my character at level 19? That seams reasonable. You're missing the point. If the game was to make the best level 19 PvP character, then that would be fine. Hell, that IS the game now. However, the game where you get to play PvP as you level your character up, that one doesn't exist, and that is the problem, and my only complaint.
Ok lets break this down. Hypothetically I love 29 bracket PVP, specifically a hunter. So I decide I want to roll me a hunter to do nothing but PVP at 29 when my main gets stale. What kind of moron would I be to not want to maximize every available helpful stat that I could for a hunter at 29? Should I make a crappy character so I don't feel guilty about killing the other faction members that didn't take the time to gear up for the BG? I came prepared, you came in half busted rag tag gear, hurting your team more than I'm helping mine, but I'm the asshole somehow.
Re: Twink equipment enchants are not overpowered - I don't know if I'm doing this right, but I just searched for items with a required level between 15-19 and more than 10 stamina. There are none. Nethercleft Leg Armor gives 40 stamina.
A few months spent before I can pvp with my character at level 19? That seams reasonable. You're missing the point. If the game was to make the best level 19 PvP character, then that would be fine. Hell, that IS the game now. However, the game where you get to play PvP as you level your character up, that one doesn't exist, and that is the problem, and my only complaint.
If you're trying to level up you'll be 19 for what 1-2 hours max?? So it's really nothing to ruffle your feathers over. What intelligent new people to the game do, is read up on how to assist their team memebers that are decked out, or how to gear their character better. My girlfriend is going through this learning curve now, but she's not crying about it, she's asking me for tips on helping her team and where she can get better gear at. She knows she's only going to be in the lower brackets for a short amount of time and understands that other people like to stay in those brackets for PVP only.
Absolutely not, Day. You should make the best level 29 dude you can. However, Blizzard should make sure that it's not capable of easily taking out 6 level 29 "normal" characters, or they should provide a special place for you to fight other twinks, or something.
AND, you should realize that when you are done, you are no longer involved in a competitive contest of pvp. You already won that. When you are done, you are just making other people annoyed.
That seems to me like they're different things, then.
A good player specifically going for the level 20-29 PvP bracket would probably twink, though. Doing otherwise would be a bad decision, since it won't give them the greatest advantage they could have.
No, they're not the same thing, but they can be related.
I think mainly PVP in wow is competition based on gear which amounts snobby rich boy competitions akin to: "my daddy bought me this" and well, "my daddy bought me this and its more expensive."
Rewarding players for the amount of time they have spent grinding instead of by how well they have played in an individual contest is frankly asinine. But that is apparently the way pvp in wow (apparently) has been designed, so the rules of the game are the rules of the game.
Imo opinion, you hit the nail on the head there.
Of course Blizzard rewards players for how long they have spent in the game. It's money in their pocket!
Silly me. Who cares that it's supposed to be a role playing game.
And game companies who are releasing new MMORPGs often don't survive long enough to have to worry about server economy and twinks anyway, so they don't care about it either!
eobet on
Heard the proposition that RIAA and MPAA should join forces and form "Music And Film Industry Association"?
Of course Blizzard rewards players for how long they have spent in the game. It's money in their pocket!
Silly me. Who cares that it's supposed to be a role playing game.
Characters that become more powerful with experience are pretty much a defining aspect of RPGs.
Sure. Characters that become more powerful with THEIR experience are a defining aspect of RPGs. Most RPGs aren't centered around character <y> becoming more powerful because character <z> has been farming for weeks.
Posts
My sarcasm filter is broken, so forgive me...
This is exactly what I'm arguing against. There exist competitive games where even given a gargantuan advantage, the underdog still has a fighting chance. There is no reason WoW pvp brackets should not also be this way.
Correct, and in actual competitive leagues, those "terrible" seasons are still at a ~30% winning level. That is what makes the leagues competitive.
They are very seperate, but I'm curious if "the ends justify the means" extends beyond slapping a 12 stam enchant on level 38 boots or not.
The school I went to has no bearing on twinking either, but he felt free to ask that out of left field all the same.
PS: I'm 28. I'm way beyond that "not keeping score because it might hurt someone's feelings" bullshit.
Um...they are this way.
Just because you roll over and play dead when you see a twink doesn't mean everyone else has to.
It's the same difference.
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
Funny, they tried that with the arenas.
People have been breaking it for every season since, or so I hear. I gave up during the bullshit that was S3.
Do you really believe that anyone has a fighting chance against a character with 3 times the hitpoints, 50% avoidance, 5 times the crit chance, double the weapon damage, and a run speed increase*? Maybe if the twink is a gerbil with no paws, sure.
*all made up numbers.
EDIT: God, arenas. Blizzard really dropped the ball. Personal rating, teams matched up based on average or weighted average or something similar, never resets. Done, problems solved. Douchebags can come down and tear your shit up if they want, but only if they lose as many games as they win, since they will otherwise be matched up against similarly skilled/geared opponents. There is no reason to allow a reset, since when your rating is low, you'll play worse teams and it will go up. Seriously, why did they make it complicated? That's what the whole point/rating system thing they use was designed for in the first place!
Perhaps I need [sarcasm] tags?
Has to work. Has to.
http://steamcommunity.com/id/Daymion
They are that way. The players just aren't as smart as your sports teams. They do have every opportunity to gear themselves out, or with your sports analogy, look for the best players.
If a sports team decides to fill their roster with whatever's easily available to them from local universities, it's their own fault when they lose terribly.
edit: late post, sorry
http://steamcommunity.com/id/Daymion
No no, it's cool, I saw what you did there.
I just can't help but shit on the arenas. I consider it karmic balance, after they shat all over me. Gladiator teams with weapons and shoulders in the 1300's has a way of ruining your day.
Can trade TF2 items or whatever else you're interested in. PM me.
Clearly those are all made up numbers.
There's no tier where you are allowed enchants so powerful that a twink is exponentially stronger than a properly geared player of that level.
Obviously, if you've been neglecting your gear and you hop into a BG you'll be underpowered. And obviously if you hop into a BG at a lower level than the top level of that tier, you're likely to get stomped.
But if you take the time, as you're leveling up, to keep your gear up to date; no amount of equipment or enchants on a player is going to be so grossly overpowered that they can't be defeated.
Too many people just see the glow on a weapon and just lay down and die.
And then go bitch about it on an interweb forum.
EDIT: Except, ironically, the 70 BG's. A S3/4 player is going to stomp a new 70 with greens and blues. But this isn't what is being bitched about here.
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
http://steamcommunity.com/id/Daymion
I guess my analogy failed...
Sports teams can't do this, they have limited funds, operate under draft rules, etc. They are still competitive because the rules of the game allow them to be. WoW is not this way. WoW requires every player to have a 100 year history in the largest market in the world and the associated revenue.
http://steamcommunity.com/id/Daymion
http://steamcommunity.com/id/Daymion
They knew what was going on when they went in there.
Fuck 'em.
TWINK OR DIE BITCHES.
Really? Because he's not the one playing martyr about supposedly not having a chance.
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
http://steamcommunity.com/id/Daymion
And the scaled time you refer to comes out to be a couple months in reality.
Or a few days with the help of a guild.
http://steamcommunity.com/id/Daymion
edit: well, maybe you can't. I don't know. :P
http://steamcommunity.com/id/Daymion
A few months spent before I can pvp with my character at level 19? That seams reasonable. You're missing the point. If the game was to make the best level 19 PvP character, then that would be fine. Hell, that IS the game now. However, the game where you get to play PvP as you level your character up, that one doesn't exist, and that is the problem, and my only complaint.
http://steamcommunity.com/id/Daymion
If you're trying to level up you'll be 19 for what 1-2 hours max?? So it's really nothing to ruffle your feathers over. What intelligent new people to the game do, is read up on how to assist their team memebers that are decked out, or how to gear their character better. My girlfriend is going through this learning curve now, but she's not crying about it, she's asking me for tips on helping her team and where she can get better gear at. She knows she's only going to be in the lower brackets for a short amount of time and understands that other people like to stay in those brackets for PVP only.
http://steamcommunity.com/id/Daymion
AND, you should realize that when you are done, you are no longer involved in a competitive contest of pvp. You already won that. When you are done, you are just making other people annoyed.
A good player specifically going for the level 20-29 PvP bracket would probably twink, though. Doing otherwise would be a bad decision, since it won't give them the greatest advantage they could have.
No, they're not the same thing, but they can be related.
Imo opinion, you hit the nail on the head there.
Of course Blizzard rewards players for how long they have spent in the game. It's money in their pocket!
Silly me. Who cares that it's supposed to be a role playing game.
And game companies who are releasing new MMORPGs often don't survive long enough to have to worry about server economy and twinks anyway, so they don't care about it either!
The real defining aspect of RPG's are the guilds that go to a bar, get drunk, and start a bar fight.
Sure. Characters that become more powerful with THEIR experience are a defining aspect of RPGs. Most RPGs aren't centered around character <y> becoming more powerful because character <z> has been farming for weeks.
Once I get my WoW cosplay SCA league going it won't be.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.