Okay but it's a concert and there aren't any rules, written or unwritten, about where you stand during a concert.
And if you're standing there and someone pushes you out your spot that you want to keep? The correct, non-dick action is? Or isn't the real question weather or not the guy pushing you out of your spot a dick in the first place?
You know, there really shouldn't be any space. You should be close enough to other people that folks can't get a shoulder in. If you're hanging out with some kind of personal space bubble at the front of a concert then you're going to get cut in front of.
The sitution I think we're talking about, there isnt' any space.
Then set your shoulder and don't let them through, you doormat.
It depends on if there's open space ahead, which you sometimes get. You're pretty fucking focused on yourself here, though, and I have a feeling we're not getting everything, so I think I'm done.
I wouldn't actually mosh to the majority of the music played at the PA concerts as the OneUps and JoCo are probably not the place for it. But in general I go to concerts, and I would assume other people do to, to experience the music they like in a different way by like, i dunno, feeling the music, dancing and having a good time with people who also enjoy the same thing as you. If you're there to stand, listen, and otherwise be lame, sit in the back in the chairs with the other peeps and their laptops. And hopefully next year there is a severe lack of freezepop.
Okay but it's a concert and there aren't any rules, written or unwritten, about where you stand during a concert.
And if you're standing there and someone pushes you out your spot that you want to keep? The correct, non-dick action is? Or isn't the real question weather or not the guy pushing you out of your spot a dick in the first place?
jesus, this is bloody simple
usually people are just pushing past you to get closer
I've rarely experienced anyone at a concert intentionally pushing me out of where I'm standing
so you just let them pass
and if you're in the front you let them pass? where do they go? on stage?
but just dancing and in the process occasionally bumping up against someone is not "forcing" them out of their spot
it's like you've got some kind of bloody flowchart to map this out as if it's an engineering problem that you have to find an optimal solution for
get over yourself and just enjoy the damn concert even if you end up moving a couple of feet over to avoid someone dancing
or, *gasp!* join in the bloody dancing
it is a concert after all
It depends on if there's open space ahead, which you sometimes get. You're pretty fucking focused on yourself here, though, and I have a feeling we're not getting everything, so I think I'm done.
I also think you're overly concerned about anyone being the slightest bit rude. So someone bumped against or pushed you. Deal with it or avoid public events. Unless someone's really pushing me hard I pretty much accept it as a sign that the artist is doing their job well and getting people into the groove. If everyone's just standing around stationary then something's terribly wrong unless you're listening to a string quartet.
A person pushing forward is not being a dick. He is not being rude.
If, however, you attempt to stop him by standing your ground or pushing back, and he continues to try and push forward, then sure. He's a dick. But I really doubt anybody tried standing their ground.
Pika, why does it matter where they go if they're moving past you? They're moving past you. It ain't your business where they're going once they're out of your space. Jeebus.
I also don't buy your argument that there wasn't any space ahead. From my experience, there's almost always more space to squeeze more people in. It's a fact of being up front. Being closer to the stage is a tacit acceptance of the fact that you're going to be getting squished in with others. Don't like that? Move back from the stage. That's just how it works.
I would like to offer my opinions on this topic, but I only even tried attending the second concert (some time after it had begun) and was unable to stomach more than about fifteen seconds of Darkest of the Hillside Thickets' performance.
So, my only impression was a few glimpses of sweaty nerds jamming out to some sweaty nerds on stage wearing no shirts and ram's horns. I'm a sweaty nerd myself, of course, but I decided I had better things to do than listen to their lead singer fail to maintain pitch.
I've seen a great many punk, metal and hardcore bands perform, and if you really feel cheated that you were unable to mosh for this band's performance I think you should broaden your horizons.
(I guess I ended up offering my opinions anyway. They're just so awesome I can't keep them to myself!)
rereading that, I ought to temper my statements about the Thickets' show--I really only heard about 15 seconds of it and I'm aware they've got a great many devoted fans, so I will reserve judgement
it's possible that they are awesome and I just happened to catch a slice of it that wasn't so great
There's one metal band in particular here in Chapel Hill that can't play a single show without somebody ending the audience leaving with blood streaming down their face. There's always a bunch of drunk moshers who have no idea when enough is enough, and somehow or another an actual fight always breaks out.
The last show I saw, two guys slammed into a 600 lb. pool table hard enough to scoot it eight feet across the floor. Then one of them grabbed a pool ball and started smashing the other guy's head with it until we managed to pull them apart.
So yeah, I can totally see why the PAX staff didn't want any serious moshing going on at their concerts. The liability for that kind of injury is astronomical. You can say all you want about how you don't intend for your moshing to cross the line, but the show sponsors and venue operators have no fucking clue whether you know where to draw the line.
So yeah, I can totally see why the PAX staff didn't want any serious moshing going on at their concerts. The liability for that kind of injury is astronomical.
I think the only real danger from people moshing at PAX is from heart attacks.
Pika, why does it matter where they go if they're moving past you? They're moving past you. It ain't your business where they're going once they're out of your space. Jeebus.
it's my business if they block my view, or if they take up nonnexistant space, thus pushes the crowd and myself back some.
I also don't buy your argument that there wasn't any space ahead. From my experience, there's almost always more space to squeeze more people in. It's a fact of being up front. Being closer to the stage is a tacit acceptance of the fact that you're going to be getting squished in with others. Don't like that? Move back from the stage. That's just how it works.
how can you not buy an argument where I laid out the hypotheticals. this didn't happen. I'm making it very specific because a lot of different things can happen that can cause a lot of different outcomes and interpretations.
yeah, if you see an open spot, go ahead and nab it.
yeah, dancing's fun if you got the room, which in some cases can be like 3 inches.
yeah, if you're in teh front, everyone's going to be up there rubbing skin.
my arguement is that if there's no room in front of you, and the person behind you knows this and purposely tries to cut in front of you, it's a dick move. note this arguement has been altered for clarification and ease of debate.
if nudging your sholder against someone trying to wedge in is the accepted form of communication for "may I get ahead of you?", then I suppose that would not be a dick move if an acceptable reply is to not let them in.
I'm pretty much agreeing with most of the posts here and you're calling me crazy and wrong for it.
why are you so determined to argue some hypothetical situation that didn't actually happen to you and which the rest of us realize is pretty unlikely to have actually happened at all?
Actually, it did happen to me. By an out-of-uniform Enforcer, no less, who used a flash of his badge to convince me to move aside for him when I kept up the stiffshoulder to stop him. But you know what I did?
I told my buddy "Hey, that guy was an asshole" and kept dancing. It's really not that big of a deal.
Ok, see if you can answer this one. I saw you after the final round of omegathon walking out into the smoking area with the other capt and the third guy. While watching you guys lite up through the glass windows, i turned the corner and walked outside hoping to give you some buttons of love and creepy adoration, and you guys disappeared. Where the fuck did you guys go?
Actually, it did happen to me. By an out-of-uniform Enforcer, no less, who used a flash of his badge to convince me to move aside for him when I kept up the stiffshoulder to stop him. But you know what I did?
I told my buddy "Hey, that guy was an asshole" and kept dancing. It's really not that big of a deal.
It's not a big deal at all. I don't see why it's such a big deal to not admit it's rude.
Ok, see if you can answer this one. I saw you after the final round of omegathon walking out into the smoking area with the other capt and the third guy. While watching you guys lite up through the glass windows, i turned the corner and walked outside hoping to give you some buttons of love and creepy adoration, and you guys disappeared. Where the fuck did you guys go?
Cap pointed out that there were some stairs around the other end of the courtyard that led down to street level, so we followed around the convention center and took those stairs rather than try and fight our way through the throng inside.
Actually, it did happen to me. By an out-of-uniform Enforcer, no less, who used a flash of his badge to convince me to move aside for him when I kept up the stiffshoulder to stop him. But you know what I did?
I told my buddy "Hey, that guy was an asshole" and kept dancing. It's really not that big of a deal.
It's not a big deal at all. I don't see why it's such a big deal to not admit it's rude.
I agree with you. But you know who didn't think it was rude? The guy who pushed in front of me.
We're just talking about different personalities, here.
Actually, it did happen to me. By an out-of-uniform Enforcer, no less, who used a flash of his badge to convince me to move aside for him when I kept up the stiffshoulder to stop him. But you know what I did?
I told my buddy "Hey, that guy was an asshole" and kept dancing. It's really not that big of a deal.
It's not a big deal at all. I don't see why it's such a big deal to not admit it's rude.
Ok, that's cool. I mean, I don't agree that it's rude but I'll definitely agree that it's not that big of a deal either way. Hi5.
im seeing people say that moshing isnt allowed because people bring very ecxpensive things in like ipods, phones, ds's, psp, etc etc...
but again what i dont understand is the fact thats its a "concert" you dont bring those items into a "concert."
and if i see people just standing still listening to the band then there is a big problem, thats what you do at home. in a "concert" you dont stand there you get INTO the music and enjoy it.
now i can understand the WSCTC not wanting injuries or whatnot but they gotta understand that its a freakin concert, other places that hold concerts dont worry about that kind of thing, i just think the whole WSCTC is butt hurt with alot of things not only being the concerts but also as an example the Bawls issue.
to sum it up: if you dont like the fact that me, or anyone else is enjoying the concert and decide to "move around quite alot" then either get over it and go home and listen to your music or get the hell out of the way and dont conplain, because obviously your new to the concert experience.
Well I certainly wanted to stay out of this argument, but I think its run its course and the last time I posted in a mosh thread it died almost immediately after.... so I'm hoping it will happen again.
Here's the problem, this thread has evolved along exactly the same route as all previous threads on this topic and will eventually end in the same way as well.
Step 1) Someone posts that they are angry because they weren't allowed to mosh (not surprising considering anyone who would mosh to freezepop has anger issues)
Step 2) A well meaning person says they shouldn't be allowed to because its rude/dangerous but their statement accidently looks like they only condone standing still and not moving
Step 3) People who like to dance at the shows jump in an defend their ability to dance
Step 4) The thread disolves into "you must respect my right to do this, even though I don't repsect your right to do that"
For clarification.... the OP mentioned moshing not dancing. Moshing is by definition intentionally slamming into, punching and elbowing other people. Not only the people in the mosh pit but the people who are unfortunate enough to be near it. The two should never be confused.
For those of you making the argument for dancing, think for a second how it would feel to be dancing, enjoying the music and suddenly getting punched in the back of the head. Not cool I imagine. About as uncool as getting punched in the back of the head while playing DS. Now you might argue that is not what you are defending... but you would be wrong. Please look at the the thread title and the OP. Violent moshing IS the behaviour you are defending. This isn't a Dancing thread.
Simple question to the dancers, did the enforcers stop you from dancing? No? Well then obviously your behaviour at the concerts is condoned, so don't worry about it. Even if someone in this thread doesn't like it, you are allowed to dance. Please don't accidently give your support to people who want to punch and kick us (you included) for fun.
So here's how it works:
(1) Dancing at the concerts is okay
(2) Standing at the concerts is okay
(3) Playing DS at the concerts is okay (c'mon its PAX people)
(4) Moving closer to the stage if there is space to do so is okay
(5) The crowd jumping up and down to the point that the floor shakes is fucking awesome
*** Randomly punching and slamming into people (moshing) who are doing any of the above is not okay.***
Also not okay is to tell people that you have the god given right to be allowed to (DS/Dance) but its not okay for others to (Dance/DS). C'mon people. PAX has in the past been the most tolerant place on earth. People can dance AND play DS AND stand around at the concert while all coexisting. Someone playing DS a few feet from a dancer doesn't cause a problem for either person. Simple courtesy should result in both people giving the other the space they need to enjoy the concert in their own way.
People who want to slam into others, punch, kick, elbow and otherwise act out in a harmfull way are having their fun at the expense of others, and are just as likely to hurt someone dancing as they are to hurt someone playing DS. That is why the enforcers stop them.
So lets sum this up with: The enforcers know what they are doing, they are there to make the concert safe and they want to ensure everyone has fun. If they stop you from doing something, you shouldn't be doing it. This includes jumping onto the stage, shoving people, fighting and moshing. Can we all agree on that?
read halfway into that post, and sorry sir, but the topic kind of changed a little bit halfway through, not everyone adheres directly to the op for the whole thread, we adapted it a little bit.
also yes, i am against moshing at a pax concert, its not really moshing material anyways.
ALSO, if you want to ds, why not back up a little bit? i almost tripped over/stepped on bags of people who were sitting *alone* in the middle of the group because i could not see them, feel free to ds, that's cool, but do it a bit farther back so people who want to get closer and maybe dance or watch the band have the room to do so
I'm fully into supporting dancing at the concerts as I think it does make the crowd a lot more fun. I'd also agree that people who simply want to listen to music while playing DS should probably not be right up front and for the most part they are not. Simple courtesy for your felow geeks from both sides have prevented any major altercations for the past 5 years and will undoubtably continue to do so.
Also I don't play my DS at the concerts. I tend to work my way to the front and very much 'get into the music'.
And yes this thread derailed into a debate over if people should be able to move ahead of others and if people should be allowed to move around. Of course and of course. People are constantly coming and going from the concerts, as not everyone likes all the bands. Accordingly there is always new space to move up into. If people didn't move up, then the front half of the theater would have been empty for the Minibosses.
However if you look a couple posts below mine you will see that:
to sum it up: if you dont like the fact that me, or anyone else is enjoying the concert and decide to "move around quite alot" then either get over it and go home and listen to your music or get the hell out of the way and dont conplain, because obviously your new to the concert experience.
Accordingly I wasn't the one who brought it back to moshing. The OPer did that already and as you will notice he used all the pro-dancing and pro-movement arguments to support the pro-moshing agenda. It's amazing how easily one can justify moshing and get people to support their cause once it is termed as "moving around" or "dancing".
As I said every other thread on this topic has evolved the same way. Someone said they wanted moshing. The post got off topic into dancing and moving up in the crowd. The moshing people jumped in and said "See all these people agree with me. Allow moshing or we'll just do it anyway!" This thread just did that and apparently nobody noticed yet. lol.
I just wanted to bring attention to that.... before anyone accidently defended a carefully worded post meant to get them to support something they are against. 8-)
My post was mostly in respose to the first one I quoted.
I pictochat up front since I usually have no one to talk with (no idea why ) and i'd rather not yell to say what I want to say. no comment either way on the guys playing games staring down the whole time, though.
Posts
It's not rude to see no space ahead of you and think it's ok to push someone aside to take their spot that they are currently standing in?
If, however, you attempt to stop him by standing your ground or pushing back, and he continues to try and push forward, then sure. He's a dick. But I really doubt anybody tried standing their ground.
I also don't buy your argument that there wasn't any space ahead. From my experience, there's almost always more space to squeeze more people in. It's a fact of being up front. Being closer to the stage is a tacit acceptance of the fact that you're going to be getting squished in with others. Don't like that? Move back from the stage. That's just how it works.
So, my only impression was a few glimpses of sweaty nerds jamming out to some sweaty nerds on stage wearing no shirts and ram's horns. I'm a sweaty nerd myself, of course, but I decided I had better things to do than listen to their lead singer fail to maintain pitch.
I've seen a great many punk, metal and hardcore bands perform, and if you really feel cheated that you were unable to mosh for this band's performance I think you should broaden your horizons.
(I guess I ended up offering my opinions anyway. They're just so awesome I can't keep them to myself!)
it's possible that they are awesome and I just happened to catch a slice of it that wasn't so great
I'm still an asshole though
a glorious asshole
The last show I saw, two guys slammed into a 600 lb. pool table hard enough to scoot it eight feet across the floor. Then one of them grabbed a pool ball and started smashing the other guy's head with it until we managed to pull them apart.
So yeah, I can totally see why the PAX staff didn't want any serious moshing going on at their concerts. The liability for that kind of injury is astronomical. You can say all you want about how you don't intend for your moshing to cross the line, but the show sponsors and venue operators have no fucking clue whether you know where to draw the line.
I think the only real danger from people moshing at PAX is from heart attacks.
yeah, if you see an open spot, go ahead and nab it.
yeah, dancing's fun if you got the room, which in some cases can be like 3 inches.
yeah, if you're in teh front, everyone's going to be up there rubbing skin.
my arguement is that if there's no room in front of you, and the person behind you knows this and purposely tries to cut in front of you, it's a dick move. note this arguement has been altered for clarification and ease of debate.
if nudging your sholder against someone trying to wedge in is the accepted form of communication for "may I get ahead of you?", then I suppose that would not be a dick move if an acceptable reply is to not let them in.
I'm pretty much agreeing with most of the posts here and you're calling me crazy and wrong for it.
Darkest of the Neckbeard Thickets
is rude/dick the wrong word? mean, maybe? hoetastic? craptactular? a debbie downer?
edit- anyone know an acceptable spelling for hoetastic?
I told my buddy "Hey, that guy was an asshole" and kept dancing. It's really not that big of a deal.
Ok, see if you can answer this one. I saw you after the final round of omegathon walking out into the smoking area with the other capt and the third guy. While watching you guys lite up through the glass windows, i turned the corner and walked outside hoping to give you some buttons of love and creepy adoration, and you guys disappeared. Where the fuck did you guys go?
Cap pointed out that there were some stairs around the other end of the courtyard that led down to street level, so we followed around the convention center and took those stairs rather than try and fight our way through the throng inside.
sorry man
I agree with you. But you know who didn't think it was rude? The guy who pushed in front of me.
We're just talking about different personalities, here.
Ok, that's cool. I mean, I don't agree that it's rude but I'll definitely agree that it's not that big of a deal either way. Hi5.
edit- oh god, so I'm not crazy. bitchy and huge arguements of little insignificant shit, but not crazy. later.
and illiterate. but I'm done for now either way
im seeing people say that moshing isnt allowed because people bring very ecxpensive things in like ipods, phones, ds's, psp, etc etc...
but again what i dont understand is the fact thats its a "concert" you dont bring those items into a "concert."
and if i see people just standing still listening to the band then there is a big problem, thats what you do at home. in a "concert" you dont stand there you get INTO the music and enjoy it.
now i can understand the WSCTC not wanting injuries or whatnot but they gotta understand that its a freakin concert, other places that hold concerts dont worry about that kind of thing, i just think the whole WSCTC is butt hurt with alot of things not only being the concerts but also as an example the Bawls issue.
to sum it up: if you dont like the fact that me, or anyone else is enjoying the concert and decide to "move around quite alot" then either get over it and go home and listen to your music or get the hell out of the way and dont conplain, because obviously your new to the concert experience.
Here's the problem, this thread has evolved along exactly the same route as all previous threads on this topic and will eventually end in the same way as well.
Step 1) Someone posts that they are angry because they weren't allowed to mosh (not surprising considering anyone who would mosh to freezepop has anger issues)
Step 2) A well meaning person says they shouldn't be allowed to because its rude/dangerous but their statement accidently looks like they only condone standing still and not moving
Step 3) People who like to dance at the shows jump in an defend their ability to dance
Step 4) The thread disolves into "you must respect my right to do this, even though I don't repsect your right to do that"
For clarification.... the OP mentioned moshing not dancing. Moshing is by definition intentionally slamming into, punching and elbowing other people. Not only the people in the mosh pit but the people who are unfortunate enough to be near it. The two should never be confused.
For those of you making the argument for dancing, think for a second how it would feel to be dancing, enjoying the music and suddenly getting punched in the back of the head. Not cool I imagine. About as uncool as getting punched in the back of the head while playing DS. Now you might argue that is not what you are defending... but you would be wrong. Please look at the the thread title and the OP. Violent moshing IS the behaviour you are defending. This isn't a Dancing thread.
Simple question to the dancers, did the enforcers stop you from dancing? No? Well then obviously your behaviour at the concerts is condoned, so don't worry about it. Even if someone in this thread doesn't like it, you are allowed to dance. Please don't accidently give your support to people who want to punch and kick us (you included) for fun.
So here's how it works:
(1) Dancing at the concerts is okay
(2) Standing at the concerts is okay
(3) Playing DS at the concerts is okay (c'mon its PAX people)
(4) Moving closer to the stage if there is space to do so is okay
(5) The crowd jumping up and down to the point that the floor shakes is fucking awesome
*** Randomly punching and slamming into people (moshing) who are doing any of the above is not okay.***
Also not okay is to tell people that you have the god given right to be allowed to (DS/Dance) but its not okay for others to (Dance/DS). C'mon people. PAX has in the past been the most tolerant place on earth. People can dance AND play DS AND stand around at the concert while all coexisting. Someone playing DS a few feet from a dancer doesn't cause a problem for either person. Simple courtesy should result in both people giving the other the space they need to enjoy the concert in their own way.
People who want to slam into others, punch, kick, elbow and otherwise act out in a harmfull way are having their fun at the expense of others, and are just as likely to hurt someone dancing as they are to hurt someone playing DS. That is why the enforcers stop them.
So lets sum this up with: The enforcers know what they are doing, they are there to make the concert safe and they want to ensure everyone has fun. If they stop you from doing something, you shouldn't be doing it. This includes jumping onto the stage, shoving people, fighting and moshing. Can we all agree on that?
ALSO, if you want to ds, why not back up a little bit? i almost tripped over/stepped on bags of people who were sitting *alone* in the middle of the group because i could not see them, feel free to ds, that's cool, but do it a bit farther back so people who want to get closer and maybe dance or watch the band have the room to do so
Also I don't play my DS at the concerts. I tend to work my way to the front and very much 'get into the music'.
And yes this thread derailed into a debate over if people should be able to move ahead of others and if people should be allowed to move around. Of course and of course. People are constantly coming and going from the concerts, as not everyone likes all the bands. Accordingly there is always new space to move up into. If people didn't move up, then the front half of the theater would have been empty for the Minibosses.
However if you look a couple posts below mine you will see that:
Accordingly I wasn't the one who brought it back to moshing. The OPer did that already and as you will notice he used all the pro-dancing and pro-movement arguments to support the pro-moshing agenda. It's amazing how easily one can justify moshing and get people to support their cause once it is termed as "moving around" or "dancing".
As I said every other thread on this topic has evolved the same way. Someone said they wanted moshing. The post got off topic into dancing and moving up in the crowd. The moshing people jumped in and said "See all these people agree with me. Allow moshing or we'll just do it anyway!" This thread just did that and apparently nobody noticed yet. lol.
I just wanted to bring attention to that.... before anyone accidently defended a carefully worded post meant to get them to support something they are against. 8-)
My post was mostly in respose to the first one I quoted.