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# [Chat] Tight

## Posts

• Registered User regular
edited September 2008
duallain wrote: »
gundam470 wrote: »
I had never heard of Moscow, Idaho before today and this is the second time in 20 minutes I've seen it mentioned. The first was in this article about the cheerleaders there getting more conservative uniforms.
Where are you living/ from?

Moscow is pretty small, it's professors + students + some older retired folks.

I like the retired folks the best.

I'm in California; the article came through a blog through google reader.

gundam470 on
• Registered User regular
edited September 2008
Senjutsu wrote: »
Okay, yeah, so I need some help figuring out how many steps it takes for N people to shake hands with one another if different pairs can shake hands at the same time

I know its O(N), intuitively, but I don't know how to figure it out exactly

each person needs to shake hands with n-1 other people.

that's n*(n-1)/2 handshakes for n people

so it's O(n^2)

note: I am extremely high on cough meds right now

The way he is describing the problem this time, 4 people could shake hands like this:

1.
1-2
3-4

2.
1-3
2-4

3.
1-4
2-3

So 3 steps I think unless I missed a combination. So this is probably O(n).

gundam470 on
• Registered User regular
edited September 2008
Feral wrote: »
Feral wrote: »
Feral wrote: »
Jacobkosh wrote: »
The book love thread is a bit depressing. I dunno, I'm sort of scared by the thought that C.J. Cherryh changed someone's life.

I'm sort of scared by the thought that any work of fiction changed someone's life.

eh?

Hmm?

I'm a little scared by the thought that a work of fiction has not changed anyone's life.

If art doesn't actually affect people and make them think about life or the world around them, then it's just vapid, sensual entertainment

My attitude on fiction this thus: the intellectual ideas in any work of fiction could have been expressed with greater clarity and sophistication in a work of non-fiction. Consequently, while I would describe certain non-fiction works as life-changing, I find that fiction rarely has the potency to inspire me in the way that Eddy describes above.

This is an important issue.

Basically it makes you ask: what is the point of art?

If you insist that fiction cannot do anything that essays cannot, you are basically saying that "literature" as opposed to entertainment is an entirely pointless endeavour, or rather simply doesn't exist. I don't believe this is true. It has implications beyond literature and basically empties out the idea of "art."

Storytelling, in its simplest form, has a different function than direct argument. So does poetry. I think this captures the two aspects of art that function beyond the essay.

Poetry evokes emotion. It evokes, period, through language. This is what much art does. I would suggest this is yes, like a "higher" form of entertainment, since it's not necessarily pleasurable. Poems that evoke sadness and grief are not entertaining, but they are still often excellent poetry.

Storytelling, though, what does it do? Let's take something "non-literary", for example. Let's take Pratchett's "Thud!" This is a book that is very entertaining. I love it dearly. It is also a satire that takes a dark stab at real world issues, in particular racism by means of dwarves versus trolls. Similarly, his book "Night Watch" examines the problem of evil and crime, and how law enforcement and punishment of crime interfaces with personal and social ethics. The antagonist wants the protagonist to kill him, because he would become the same as his mirror, but instead he beats the crap out of him and stops, arresting him. Vimes arrests a dragon in another book.

Reading these books made me reflect on these issues. Reading an essay would also do so, and direct, explicit consideration of these issues is important. But people do not actively read essays. If someone publishes a book containing their philosophy of life in its entirety, that book will not sell. Storytelling is a vehicle because people invest in it, and open themselves to it far more than to argument. Stories can convince and convert without aggression or opposition, or at least they can raise the issue. They come equipped with their own examples, and demonstrate how issues exist in relation to other issues in a network, rather than isolating and analyzing them.

In order to analyze a poem, you will use far more pages than the poem itself. The poem expresses so much in so little. Similarly, an essay to interpret a story or send the same message as the story will take many more pages, if it is exhaustive, if doing so exhaustively is even possible. This is because the story can demonstrate; it can show instead of telling. Showing is more powerful, even if the showing is fictional and not historical; it can still be authentic either way.
I agree with your interpretation of its effects but I despise the limited classification of storytelling that is taught in literature classes. I have read brilliant works of fiction that told no specific story and I got worth from them, enjoyment and even cognition. It's helpful but not necessary.
Poetry I got no problem with.
In fact, I would go so far as to call all fiction more or less complicated versions of poetry, with the extra addendum that they can evoke cognition as well as emotion.

"No specific story" is a pretty common thing in literature study these days. Going beyond conventional ideas of "story" and "narrative" has been happening since the 60s and 70s in academic circles.

Poetry is always hard to define, and almost everyone disagrees. I think poetry is a quality of language, in that it evokes sensation, emotion, ideas, etc. Evocative language is poetry. Poetry as a form is language that functions specifically to evoke, which is aided by rhyme and metre in some instances.

Prose fiction is, by that definition, largely poetic, because any particularly evocative phrase is poetry. Statements can be "poetic"; you can see "poetry in motion", if you want to move beyond language.

The barrier between poetry and prose is fluid at best.

Evil Multifarious on
Inquisitor wrote: »
• Registered User regular
edited September 2008
Zimmydoom wrote: »
Don't try to teach people that faith is bunk. That way lies only more pain, anger, and resentment. Teach them that faith can mean something different, something freeing and inclusive and malleable.

That is how you win hearts and minds.

Sorry for being late on the response to this (I was frantically trying to get a report out).

Just what can faith mean, Zimmy? I'm honestly curious. Faith to me is an empty concept. It is devoid of worth to society.

From my perspective, you're advocating that I lie to people's faces about faith in order that they don't outright reject my viewpoint. Is that what you're saying?

MikeMan on
HOW DO YOU FUCK UP BAGELS. YOU BOIL THE WATER. PUT IN THE NOODLES
• thot enthusiast Registered User regular
edited September 2008
gundam470 wrote: »
Senjutsu wrote: »
Okay, yeah, so I need some help figuring out how many steps it takes for N people to shake hands with one another if different pairs can shake hands at the same time

I know its O(N), intuitively, but I don't know how to figure it out exactly

each person needs to shake hands with n-1 other people.

that's n*(n-1)/2 handshakes for n people

so it's O(n^2)

note: I am extremely high on cough meds right now

The way he is describing the problem this time, 4 people could shake hands like this:

1.
1-2
3-4

2.
1-3
2-4

3.
1-4
2-3

So 3 steps I think unless I missed a combination. So this is probably O(n).
Oh, is that what step denotes?

Senjutsu on
Sarksus wrote: »
I'm gonna get a PhD in incest.
• I am much older than you. in Beach CityRegistered User regular
edited September 2008
Good afternoon [chat]. Why are we talking about poetry and prose?

Passerbye on
• Registered User regular
edited September 2008
Feral wrote: »
My attitude on fiction this thus: the intellectual ideas in any work of fiction could have been expressed with greater clarity and sophistication in a work of non-fiction. Consequently, while I would describe certain non-fiction works as life-changing, I find that fiction rarely has the potency to inspire me in the way that Eddy describes above.

This makes absolutely no sense to me. Could you explain your metrics and system of ascribing value because as I see this it is just a circular argument.

MikeMan on
HOW DO YOU FUCK UP BAGELS. YOU BOIL THE WATER. PUT IN THE NOODLES
• Neutron Nerd Registered User regular
edited September 2008
Frosteey, I have no idea what you're talking about.

visiblehowl on

My sig is from Hyperbole and a Half | I lose a lot at PUBG on Twitch
• Registered User regular
edited September 2008
As AIG gets successively messier and our financial markets continue to founder, Tom Friedman had one hope to share:

"The market is now consolidating this industry [finance], with the strong eating the weak, which will impose its own fiscal discipline. Good. Maybe then more of our next generation of math geniuses will think about going into engineering the next great global industry — energy technology — rather than engineering derivatives."

Agreed.

poo
• Registered User regular
edited September 2008
Senjutsu wrote: »
Oh, is that what step denotes?
I think so, since the first time you could only have one pair of people shake hands per step.

gundam470 on
• Registered User regular
edited September 2008
Passerbye wrote: »
Good afternoon [chat]. Why are we talking about poetry and prose?

Why not?

Inquisitor on
• I am much older than you. in Beach CityRegistered User regular
edited September 2008
Inquisitor wrote: »
Passerbye wrote: »
Good afternoon [chat]. Why are we talking about poetry and prose?

Why not?

Oh, I'm not criticizing it. I'm just curious why. Ordinarily discussion circles around math/science/politics, so poetry and prose is a nice change.

Passerbye on
• Registered User regular
edited September 2008
Actually ordinarily the discussion circles around whatever, but mainly cocks-dicks.

James if you are still here give me feedback in the cover thread.

Inquisitor on
• Registered User regular
edited September 2008
I fucking hate poetry and prose. Elizabeth Bishop is the queen of dykes.

Tav on
• Registered User regular
edited September 2008
Tav wrote: »
I fucking hate poetry and prose. Elizabeth Bishop is the queen of dykes.

We need a third option for those who dislike both poetry and prose.

mrflippy on
• I am much older than you. in Beach CityRegistered User regular
edited September 2008
Inquisitor wrote: »
Actually ordinarily the discussion circles around whatever, but mainly cocks-dicks.

James if you are still here give me feedback in the cover thread.

Cocks-dicks? If you say so, I haven't seen much of that kind of humor here, though plenty of sexual innuendo and the like. Direct dick humor seems like more of a SE++ thing.

Passerbye on
• Don't despair. Not even over the fact that you don't despair.Registered User regular
edited September 2008
mrflippy wrote: »
Tav wrote: »
I fucking hate poetry and prose. Elizabeth Bishop is the queen of dykes.

We need a third option for those who dislike both poetry and prose.

so... you dislike all written language?

Casual Eddy on
Elki wrote: »

Casual Eddy: best poster 2014.
tyrannus wrote: »
Casual Eddy: best poster of 2015

gotta update that stuff man
• I am much older than you. in Beach CityRegistered User regular
edited September 2008
mrflippy wrote: »
Tav wrote: »
I fucking hate poetry and prose. Elizabeth Bishop is the queen of dykes.

We need a third option for those who dislike both poetry and prose.

Film? I'm not sure, that medium can involve words. Might not be acceptable.

Passerbye on
• Registered User regular
edited September 2008
Passerbye wrote: »
Inquisitor wrote: »
Actually ordinarily the discussion circles around whatever, but mainly cocks-dicks.

James if you are still here give me feedback in the cover thread.

Cocks-dicks? If you say so, I haven't seen much of that kind of humor here, though plenty of sexual innuendo and the like. Direct dick humor seems like more of a SE++ thing.

Are you new here?

Also: cocks.

mrflippy on
• That's what I do. I drink, and I know things. Location: ByakkoyaRegistered User regular
edited September 2008
If you insist that fiction cannot do anything that essays cannot, you are basically saying that "literature" as opposed to entertainment is an entirely pointless endeavour, or rather simply doesn't exist. I don't believe this is true. It has implications beyond literature and basically empties out the idea of "art."

Pointless? No.

Art as a truth-telling device is inherently less efficient than prose. This does not make it pointless, as art does not necessarily need to impart wisdom to be worthwhile.
Poetry evokes emotion. It evokes, period, through language. This is what much art does. I would suggest this is yes, like a "higher" form of entertainment, since it's not necessarily pleasurable. Poems that evoke sadness and grief are not entertaining, but they are still often excellent poetry.

Okay, but is this life-changing? One of my favorite poems is Howl. The feelings of urgency, of social collapse, of injustice, of outrage that it evokes are powerful. But did I learn anything new from it? Would my life have taken a different course had I never heard it? No, not really. That doesn't necessarily mean it's not worthwhile - there is a great sea between worthwhile and life-changing.

Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
• Registered User regular
edited September 2008
so... you dislike all written language?

He's a masochist, thus the foruming.

Inquisitor on
• Registered User regular
edited September 2008
mrflippy wrote: »
Tav wrote: »
I fucking hate poetry and prose. Elizabeth Bishop is the queen of dykes.

We need a third option for those who dislike both poetry and prose.

so... you dislike all written language?
Not me, no.

mrflippy on
• Registered User regular
edited September 2008
Feral wrote: »
Okay, but is this life-changing? One of my favorite poems is Howl. The feelings of urgency, of social collapse, of injustice, of outrage that it evokes are powerful. But did I learn anything new from it? Would my life have taken a different course had I never heard it? No, not really. That doesn't necessarily mean it's not worthwhile - there is a great sea between worthwhile and life-changing.

Just because Howl didn't change your life doesn't mean it never changed anyone's life.

Inquisitor on
• I am much older than you. in Beach CityRegistered User regular
edited September 2008
mrflippy wrote: »
Passerbye wrote: »
Inquisitor wrote: »
Actually ordinarily the discussion circles around whatever, but mainly cocks-dicks.

James if you are still here give me feedback in the cover thread.

Cocks-dicks? If you say so, I haven't seen much of that kind of humor here, though plenty of sexual innuendo and the like. Direct dick humor seems like more of a SE++ thing.

Are you new here?

Also: cocks.

No shit, Sherlock.

Also: I've seen more talk about sex lives than I've seen direct references to anything penis.

Passerbye on
• Elaise 1521-2945-8940Registered User regular
edited September 2008
Frosteey, I have no idea what you're talking about.

: (

Then you will be overtaken by the cold sting of the gridiron.

Frosteey on
• Registered User regular
edited September 2008
Why are you trying to extrapolate so much about our trends based on your admitted inexperience with us?

Boggle.

Inquisitor on
• Registered User regular
edited September 2008
Passerbye wrote: »
No shit, Sherlock.

I mean: I am back from being gone for a while, and am not sure what is going on all of the time.

mrflippy on
• Registered User regular
edited September 2008
mrflippy wrote: »
Passerbye wrote: »
No shit, Sherlock.

It's called being a snappy-bitch Mr. Flippy sir.

Obviously you need to spend more time with the ladies.

Inquisitor on
• (♡°◡°) Registered User regular
edited September 2008
Toll the Hounds just arrived!

There is no recap of the series so far D:

skippydumptruck on
• Registered User regular
edited September 2008
Toll the Hounds just arrived!

There is no recap of the series so far D:

Inquisitor on
• Registered User regular
edited September 2008
Inquisitor wrote: »
mrflippy wrote: »
Passerbye wrote: »
No shit, Sherlock.

It's called being a snappy-bitch Mr. Flippy sir.

Obviously you need to spend more time with the ladies.

This may be part of why I don't spend more time with the ladies.

mrflippy on
• I am much older than you. in Beach CityRegistered User regular
edited September 2008
Feral wrote: »
If you insist that fiction cannot do anything that essays cannot, you are basically saying that "literature" as opposed to entertainment is an entirely pointless endeavour, or rather simply doesn't exist. I don't believe this is true. It has implications beyond literature and basically empties out the idea of "art."

Pointless? No.

Art as a truth-telling device is inherently less efficient than prose. This does not make it pointless, as art does not necessarily need to impart wisdom to be worthwhile.

Less efficient? I'm curious where you get this idea from. Speaking as a visual artist myself, I find that in many cases art can be more efficient than prose, both in jumping language barriers and in expressing cultural/social ideas which have no language of their own. Such as the social constraints common in the American Mid-west. You can say 'social constraints common in the American Mid-west' to someone from Los Angeles, but they won't feel what you mean. However, you make a visual piece about it and you may just make them feel exactly what you're talking about.

I regard poetry and non-fiction in the same way. Sometimes putting the 'facts' forward in a direct way just doesn't cut it. You're explaining everything, but what you're explaining is meaningless because they don't actually understand what you mean.

Passerbye on
• That's what I do. I drink, and I know things. Location: ByakkoyaRegistered User regular
edited September 2008
Inquisitor wrote: »
Feral wrote: »
Okay, but is this life-changing? One of my favorite poems is Howl. The feelings of urgency, of social collapse, of injustice, of outrage that it evokes are powerful. But did I learn anything new from it? Would my life have taken a different course had I never heard it? No, not really. That doesn't necessarily mean it's not worthwhile - there is a great sea between worthwhile and life-changing.

Just because Howl didn't change your life doesn't mean it never changed anyone's life.

"Howl changed somebody's life somewhere," is a declarative statement that I will not disagree with.

Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
• Registered User
edited September 2008
MikeMan wrote: »
Zimmydoom wrote: »
Don't try to teach people that faith is bunk. That way lies only more pain, anger, and resentment. Teach them that faith can mean something different, something freeing and inclusive and malleable.

That is how you win hearts and minds.

Sorry for being late on the response to this (I was frantically trying to get a report out).

Just what can faith mean, Zimmy? I'm honestly curious. Faith to me is an empty concept. It is devoid of worth to society.

From my perspective, you're advocating that I lie to people's faces about faith in order that they don't outright reject my viewpoint. Is that what you're saying?

Faith doesn't have to refer to religious belief, you can have "faith" in a person or group of people to do the right thing, or in an optimistic belief to be proven right in the end. This particular definition may be closer to "trust," but I tend to think of trust as being earned whereas faith is offered. It's you taking the first step, placing responsibility in the hands of the other person to validate your belief that, when push comes to shove, they'll do the right thing.

That's the kind of faith you need to have: that when the chips are down, even if you disagree with someone you're still willing to believe that they're capable of putting their biases aside to serve a higher purpose. Sure, sometimes that faith won't be justified, and your hand of friendship will be slapped away. But that doesn't mean you stop, doesn't mean you become cynical and certainly doesn't mean you were wrong to make the first offer.

It's not easy, and it can be frustrating when people don't live up to your expectations, but naked cynicism never amounts to much of anything.

Zimmydoom on
Better-than-birthday-sig!
Gim wrote: »
Zimmydoom, Zimmydoom
Flew away in a balloon
While sitting in a reclining chair
Now there are Zim-Bear hybrids
Running around and clawing eyelids
Watch out, a Zim-Bear is about to have sex with yooooooou!
• I am much older than you. in Beach CityRegistered User regular
edited September 2008
mrflippy wrote: »
Passerbye wrote: »
No shit, Sherlock.

I mean: I am back from being gone for a while, and am not sure what is going on all of the time.

You said 'Are you new here?', to which I replied 'No shit, Sherlock'.

Passerbye on
• (♡°◡°) Registered User regular
edited September 2008
Inquisitor wrote: »
Toll the Hounds just arrived!

There is no recap of the series so far D:

I keep trying to persuade my wife to move to Canada for the snow and free health care. So far, she is resistant.

skippydumptruck on
• Registered User regular
edited September 2008
Hello Passerby.

MikeMan on
HOW DO YOU FUCK UP BAGELS. YOU BOIL THE WATER. PUT IN THE NOODLES
• __BANNED USERS
edited September 2008
I think that Feral's point is that artistic endeavors might be able to inspire someone to walk a path, but it was a sum of experiences or non-fiction that paved the actual road.

Oboro on
words
• Ted Hitler Stroke Me Lady FameRegistered User regular
edited September 2008
Passerbye wrote: »
mrflippy wrote: »
Passerbye wrote: »
No shit, Sherlock.

I mean: I am back from being gone for a while, and am not sure what is going on all of the time.

You said 'Are you new here?', to which I replied 'No shit, Sherlock'.

do you know how that expression actually works? because your reply makes no sense.

Variable on
BNet-Vari#1998 | Switch-SW 6960 6688 8388 | 3DS-3866-8105-7478 | Steam | Twitch
• I am much older than you. in Beach CityRegistered User regular
edited September 2008
MikeMan wrote: »
Hello Passerby.

Um, hi?

Passerbye on
This discussion has been closed.