As far as I can tell, the pro-Corporate rhetoric hasn't done a whole lot for the prosperity of America so far.
You have a very prosperous failing economy.
Really? I hate to break it to you, but despite the recent troubles, America is still the most prosperous country in the world....
I think it would be more accurate to say we have the highest standard of living in the world.
Highest infant mortality rate.
Highest incarceration rate.
One of the highest obesity rates.
Once again.. pretty much a subjective argument for how you define "prosperity" or the like. This isn't Zimbabwe.. but we shouldn't delude ourselves into thinking we're a stones throw from Utopia here.
No, but it how many nations is it possible to buy a 72 inch plasma TV on a credit card when you're 22 and in college? There are more examples I can make, but I've got to run across campus. That's just the first one that comes to mind.
Most recent solid information I could find was from 2003 for people who had a computer in their homes. It was 62%, up from 56% in 2001. Pretty decent jump, and it 5 years, it has surely climbed further.
Also, since it's just people who OWN a computer, that doesn't really calculate people who might use one often at work, but not have one in the household.
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0921872.html has some numbers in the lower 70 percentile, but I haven't actually verified anything there. Still, that info was also from 4 years ago, so take that as you will.
ok cool, im not gonna debate but just know that having a computer in your house doesnt mean you use it. in a family of mom/dad/13 year old son with 1 computer who is most likely using it?
Continuing to point out how Obama isn't living up to an arbitrary standard that we feel doesn't exist is more tilting at windmills than effective argument.
Simply because you don't feel they exist doesn't invalidate the argument.
If you thought all the criticism of Obama was valid, then I highly doubt you'd be supporting him.
But you're doing exactly what I'm talking about.
You don't agree with me. Therefore, my argument must be invalid.
And then we wind up in the retarded, "Well, Obama said he'd be a new kind of politician, so that makes every transgression of his a hundred times worse, and since McCain only has 50 times as many transgressions, Obama is actually twice is bad" zone and we bicker for awhile before something shiny distracts us.
Comparisons aside, isn't pointing out ways in which Obama is "buisness as usual" a valid tactic? You yourself admitted that part of his draw was the ability to somehow fundamentally change things.
I'm willfully going to ignore this because it's well-trodden ground and because I want to get off this topic. No offense.
ElJeffe on
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
As far as I can tell, the pro-Corporate rhetoric hasn't done a whole lot for the prosperity of America so far.
You have a very prosperous failing economy.
Really? I hate to break it to you, but despite the recent troubles, America is still the most prosperous country in the world....
I think it would be more accurate to say we have the highest standard of living in the world.
Highest infant mortality rate.
Highest incarceration rate.
One of the highest obesity rates.
Once again.. pretty much a subjective argument for how you define "prosperity" or the like. This isn't Zimbabwe.. but we shouldn't delude ourselves into thinking we're a stones throw from Utopia here.
No, but it how many nations is it possible to buy a 72 inch plasma TV on a credit card when you're 22 and in college? There are more examples I can make, but I've got to run across campus. That's just the first one that comes to mind.
...
..............
"Man, I know babies are dying and shitloads of people are in prison, but have you seen my new TV?"
Edit: As a side note, I'm starting to see the realism in Dwarf Fortress where no matter what kind of chaos, death, and pestilence is going on in daily dwarf life, they're content because they get to eat (their meals of raw mushrooms and cooked vermin) in an awesome dining room.
NRO, who was previously crowing about poll numbers ad nauseum a week ago (including suggesting that New York would be in play), has pretty much stopped acknowledging that polls exist.
This makes me smile.
ElJeffe on
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
Wait, were you a former Republican? And are you leaning towards Obama now?
Do ... I owe you cookies?
He and Jeffe were for a long time holding down the fort as the conservatives you could argue with and get coherent points from around here. Though as Speaker pointed out they were accused of trolling in their time.
And yes, you owe him cookies, I think he made a post expecting them a few days ago.
Meanwhile, in hilarious news, George "Macaca" Allen is the featured speaker at a GOP minority outreach rally.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
She is the future of the Republican party. All the stuff we think is crazy? That's the society they want to build.
EDIT: I love the "Republican convert" phenomena, especially when I see it on the internet. Pretty much any old-style conservatives are defecting or at least sitting at home in the dark crying en masse, because the Republicans don't represent them at all anymore, and the Democrats are not much better from many classical conservative viewpoints. It really makes me happy to see that people do, in fact, change their minds on this stuff by reason and observation.
NRO, who was previously crowing about poll numbers ad nauseum a week ago (including suggesting that New York would be in play), has pretty much stopped acknowledging that polls exist.
NRO, who was previously crowing about poll numbers ad nauseum a week ago (including suggesting that New York would be in play), has pretty much stopped acknowledging that polls exist.
This makes me smile.
Let's be honest Jeffe, we've all done the same, but reverse.
Most recent solid information I could find was from 2003 for people who had a computer in their homes. It was 62%, up from 56% in 2001. Pretty decent jump, and it 5 years, it has surely climbed further.
Also, since it's just people who OWN a computer, that doesn't really calculate people who might use one often at work, but not have one in the household.
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0921872.html has some numbers in the lower 70 percentile, but I haven't actually verified anything there. Still, that info was also from 4 years ago, so take that as you will.
ok cool, im not gonna debate but just know that having a computer in your house doesnt mean you use it. in a family of mom/dad/13 year old son with 1 computer who is most likely using it?
still 60% "feels" right to me.
Haha yeah ok.
Actually, gonna go ahead and flesh that out a bit more. That 13 year old applied to that census question... Yeah, he's 18 now. I can assure that he will still use computers even though he is an adult now. The children he has will have computers integrated further into their lives.
As far as I can tell, the pro-Corporate rhetoric hasn't done a whole lot for the prosperity of America so far.
You have a very prosperous failing economy.
Really? I hate to break it to you, but despite the recent troubles, America is still the most prosperous country in the world....
I think it would be more accurate to say we have the highest standard of living in the world.
Highest infant mortality rate.
Highest incarceration rate.
One of the highest obesity rates.
Once again.. pretty much a subjective argument for how you define "prosperity" or the like. This isn't Zimbabwe.. but we shouldn't delude ourselves into thinking we're a stones throw from Utopia here.
Oh please, we don't have the highest Infant Mortality rate, I'd be surprised if we weren't in the top 20 (top being better). Also, we're definitely the most prosperous if your measure is straight GDP, if you go with GDP per capita, then we're really not.
Not really that helpful considering we're the 3rd largest country (in terms of population) and by far the largest developed country. The EU in total has a comparable GDP and population size.
Otherwise, I don't know that you could say the USA is definitely the "most prosperous" country (at least in terms of the effect on people.) In GDP per capita we are up in the top 5 when you discount oil-rich countries that have huge wealth disparities. But in terms of quality of life and standard of living we are usually below most of Western Europe in those rankings.
By GLEN JOHNSON, Associated Press Writer
2 hours, 56 minutes ago
CEDAR RAPIDS, Iowa - Top aides to Republian John McCain are claiming Democrat Barack Obama and his advisers are exploiting Wall Street's financial problems for political gain.
ADVERTISEMENT
Aide Steve Schmidt, who worked for the Bush-Cheney team in 2004, told reporters Thursday aboard McCain's plane that Obama is "cheerleading this crisis." He said McCain is seeking a bipartisan solution although Schmidt and aides Mark Salter and Nicole Wallace also said Democratic congressional leaders should be condemned for considering adjourning without addressing the bankruptcy of Lehman Brothers, the sale of Merrill Lynch and the emergency government loan to insurer AIG.
The aides say the Arizona senator will make the same criticisms during his speeches.
NRO, who was previously crowing about poll numbers ad nauseum a week ago (including suggesting that New York would be in play), has pretty much stopped acknowledging that polls exist.
This makes me smile.
We did the same thing in reverse.
Although we don't crow so much.
We're more in the "Polls don't matter... but look how AWESOME we're doing!" crowd.
I have a couple pub friends who were unenthusiastic about McCain but love Palin. I really don't get it.
Evangelical social conservatives? Fair assumption.
Also, she's folksy. You know, from a small town. I hear they make good people in small towns. Also in Keebler factories.
ElJeffe on
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
The convention was only like two weeks ago. Considering D+D is running roughly a politics thread every 1.25-1.5 days, it's not hard to miss someone saying something that doesn't come up all that often
NRO, who was previously crowing about poll numbers ad nauseum a week ago (including suggesting that New York would be in play), has pretty much stopped acknowledging that polls exist.
This makes me smile.
We did the same thing in reverse.
Although we don't crow so much.
We're more in the "Polls don't matter... but look how AWESOME we're doing!" crowd.
I'm pretty sure we never seriously said that we might win Utah, but fair point. Mostly I was just schadenfruedin'.
ElJeffe on
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
I remember a while back people were having a hard time giving Joe Klein props for having a few good articles among his sea of bullshit, but he's been continuing the good:
McCain's lies have ranged from the annoying to the sleazy, and the problem is in both degree and kind. His campaign has been a ceaseless assault on his opponent's character and policies, featuring a consistent—and witting—disdain for the truth.
By GLEN JOHNSON, Associated Press Writer
2 hours, 56 minutes ago
CEDAR RAPIDS, Iowa - Top aides to Republian John McCain are claiming Democrat Barack Obama and his advisers are exploiting Wall Street's financial problems for political gain.
ADVERTISEMENT
Aide Steve Schmidt, who worked for the Bush-Cheney team in 2004, told reporters Thursday aboard McCain's plane that Obama is "cheerleading this crisis." He said McCain is seeking a bipartisan solution although Schmidt and aides Mark Salter and Nicole Wallace also said Democratic congressional leaders should be condemned for considering adjourning without addressing the bankruptcy of Lehman Brothers, the sale of Merrill Lynch and the emergency government loan to insurer AIG.
The aides say the Arizona senator will make the same criticisms during his speeches.
Because John McCain would never exploit a crisis for political gain.
NRO, who was previously crowing about poll numbers ad nauseum a week ago (including suggesting that New York would be in play), has pretty much stopped acknowledging that polls exist.
This makes me smile.
Let's be honest Jeffe, we've all done the same, but reverse.
Are you kidding? The liberals on the internet forums spent the last two weeks ANGUISHING over the polls and screaming that the sky was falling. They pay attention to the polls, but they overreact no matter the outcome.
Generalizing.
Armored Gorilla on
"I'm a mad god. The Mad God, actually. It's a family title. Gets passed down from me to myself every few thousand years."
And then we wind up in the retarded, "Well, Obama said he'd be a new kind of politician, so that makes every transgression of his a hundred times worse, and since McCain only has 50 times as many transgressions, Obama is actually twice is bad" zone and we bicker for awhile before something shiny distracts us.
Comparisons aside, isn't pointing out ways in which Obama is "buisness as usual" a valid tactic? You yourself admitted that part of his draw was the ability to somehow fundamentally change things.
I'm willfully going to ignore this because it's well-trodden ground and because I want to get off this topic. No offense.
By GLEN JOHNSON, Associated Press Writer
2 hours, 56 minutes ago
CEDAR RAPIDS, Iowa - Top aides to Republian John McCain are claiming Democrat Barack Obama and his advisers are exploiting Wall Street's financial problems for political gain.
ADVERTISEMENT
Aide Steve Schmidt, who worked for the Bush-Cheney team in 2004, told reporters Thursday aboard McCain's plane that Obama is "cheerleading this crisis." He said McCain is seeking a bipartisan solution although Schmidt and aides Mark Salter and Nicole Wallace also said Democratic congressional leaders should be condemned for considering adjourning without addressing the bankruptcy of Lehman Brothers, the sale of Merrill Lynch and the emergency government loan to insurer AIG.
The aides say the Arizona senator will make the same criticisms during his speeches.
Because John McCain would never exploit a crisis for political gain.
snip
It's not fair because Obama is using this opportunity to talk about the issues instead of focusing on personalities instead.
Armored Gorilla on
"I'm a mad god. The Mad God, actually. It's a family title. Gets passed down from me to myself every few thousand years."
So Stiglitz is saying that the current Wall Street collapses are for market fundamentalism what the fall of the Berlin Wall was for Communism- the final nail in the coffin that discredits an extremist philosophy.
Obviously a shift in regulatory doctrine is not as big a deal as the collapse of the Berlin Wall, but I found it interesting- the US, which is the champion of market fundamentalism, is now stepping in left and right to bail out companies during a crisis precipitated by market fundamentalism.
Wait, were you a former Republican? And are you leaning towards Obama now?
Do ... I owe you cookies?
I also specifically stated that you owe me cookies
Granted I'm in Mississippi so it probably won't matter but, you know, cookies.
I will totally send you cookies if you promise to vote for Obama and post your address. A promise is a promise, Mr. Frodo! And I intend to keep it.
Edit: does anyone know if this is illegal?
I doubt it's any more illegal than the vote-trading thing that's been regularly going on since 2000, and I really really doubt the FBI is going to come down on you for cookies, especially since I stated that I'd be voting for Obama before you made your pledge to provide delicious sustenance.
Posts
No, but it how many nations is it possible to buy a 72 inch plasma TV on a credit card when you're 22 and in college? There are more examples I can make, but I've got to run across campus. That's just the first one that comes to mind.
Haha yeah ok.
never thought I'd see the day
I've been in limbo since the convention
How are people just now still hearing about this
Simply because you don't feel they exist doesn't invalidate the argument.
If you thought all the criticism of Obama was valid, then I highly doubt you'd be supporting him.
But you're doing exactly what I'm talking about.
You don't agree with me. Therefore, my argument must be invalid.
Presumably the reason he doesn't agree with you is because your argument is invalid?
I'm willfully going to ignore this because it's well-trodden ground and because I want to get off this topic. No offense.
Do ... I owe you cookies?
...
..............
"Man, I know babies are dying and shitloads of people are in prison, but have you seen my new TV?"
Edit: As a side note, I'm starting to see the realism in Dwarf Fortress where no matter what kind of chaos, death, and pestilence is going on in daily dwarf life, they're content because they get to eat (their meals of raw mushrooms and cooked vermin) in an awesome dining room.
presumably you should be able to disagree on moral issues without necissarily having to disagree on say economic issues.
most of the time disagreements polarize people against each other.
I have a couple pub friends who were unenthusiastic about McCain but love Palin. I really don't get it.
This makes me smile.
He and Jeffe were for a long time holding down the fort as the conservatives you could argue with and get coherent points from around here. Though as Speaker pointed out they were accused of trolling in their time.
And yes, you owe him cookies, I think he made a post expecting them a few days ago.
Meanwhile, in hilarious news, George "Macaca" Allen is the featured speaker at a GOP minority outreach rally.
EDIT: I love the "Republican convert" phenomena, especially when I see it on the internet. Pretty much any old-style conservatives are defecting or at least sitting at home in the dark crying en masse, because the Republicans don't represent them at all anymore, and the Democrats are not much better from many classical conservative viewpoints. It really makes me happy to see that people do, in fact, change their minds on this stuff by reason and observation.
One is an atheist Jew and the other is an orthodox Christian bartender.
Are you smiling McCain style?
I also specifically stated that you owe me cookies
Granted I'm in Mississippi so it probably won't matter but, you know, cookies.
Let's be honest Jeffe, we've all done the same, but reverse.
Actually, gonna go ahead and flesh that out a bit more. That 13 year old applied to that census question... Yeah, he's 18 now. I can assure that he will still use computers even though he is an adult now. The children he has will have computers integrated further into their lives.
Not really that helpful considering we're the 3rd largest country (in terms of population) and by far the largest developed country. The EU in total has a comparable GDP and population size.
Otherwise, I don't know that you could say the USA is definitely the "most prosperous" country (at least in terms of the effect on people.) In GDP per capita we are up in the top 5 when you discount oil-rich countries that have huge wealth disparities. But in terms of quality of life and standard of living we are usually below most of Western Europe in those rankings.
Edit: Thank god. This is what happens when I post in anger.
In other news, McCain is a dick.
We did the same thing in reverse.
Although we don't crow so much.
We're more in the "Polls don't matter... but look how AWESOME we're doing!" crowd.
twitch.tv/Taramoor
@TaramoorPlays
Taramoor on Youtube
Demand what's yours Sal. Get those damn cookies.
Also, she's folksy. You know, from a small town. I hear they make good people in small towns. Also in Keebler factories.
The convention was only like two weeks ago. Considering D+D is running roughly a politics thread every 1.25-1.5 days, it's not hard to miss someone saying something that doesn't come up all that often
I'm pretty sure we never seriously said that we might win Utah, but fair point. Mostly I was just schadenfruedin'.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oV9GZUtCgPc
http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1842030,00.html
Because John McCain would never exploit a crisis for political gain.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLEZ5AZL5BE
Are you kidding? The liberals on the internet forums spent the last two weeks ANGUISHING over the polls and screaming that the sky was falling. They pay attention to the polls, but they overreact no matter the outcome.
Generalizing.
Edit: does anyone know if this is illegal?
I never got cookies from you. Where are my cookies?
WHY ARE YOU AFRAID TO ANSWER I WIN BY DEFAULT
(jk understood)
It's not fair because Obama is using this opportunity to talk about the issues instead of focusing on personalities instead.
Obviously a shift in regulatory doctrine is not as big a deal as the collapse of the Berlin Wall, but I found it interesting- the US, which is the champion of market fundamentalism, is now stepping in left and right to bail out companies during a crisis precipitated by market fundamentalism.
I doubt it's any more illegal than the vote-trading thing that's been regularly going on since 2000, and I really really doubt the FBI is going to come down on you for cookies, especially since I stated that I'd be voting for Obama before you made your pledge to provide delicious sustenance.
PM with address will be forthcoming in a bit.