I think it's best to compare the percentages against each other....I mean, 21% versus 15%...that's a 40% increase over the second player in damage.
End on
I wish that someway, somehow, that I could save every one of us
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited September 2008
That damage meter is only put forth for silly bitches and should not be used for serious consideration.
I HAVE DEFEATED ALL THAT HAVE COME FORTH
MUNKUS USES AVENGING WRATH
MUNKUS' SASS CRITS FORUMS FOR A LOT OF SARCASM POINTS
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Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
ThomamelasOnly one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered Userregular
edited September 2008
So we got this little gem in a blue post:
We did add the interrupt to Hammer of Justice. This was done solely so that Protection paladins wouldn't feel like they couldn't tank mobs that needed to be interrupted but were stun immune. We just think that interrupt capability crosses over the line into something that a tank needs to do his job.
We did add the interrupt to Hammer of Justice. This was done solely so that Protection paladins wouldn't feel like they couldn't tank mobs that needed to be interrupted but were stun immune. We just think that interrupt capability crosses over the line into something that a tank needs to do his job.
Dammit...does that mean we should consider Improved Hammer of Justice now?
We did add the interrupt to Hammer of Justice. This was done solely so that Protection paladins wouldn't feel like they couldn't tank mobs that needed to be interrupted but were stun immune. We just think that interrupt capability crosses over the line into something that a tank needs to do his job.
Dammit...does that mean we should consider Improved Hammer of Justice now?
It's looking like it. It's not a big deal, most Paladins went 2/2 DG, 1/5 Reck or 3/5 Reck. Just swap those points into it.
We did add the interrupt to Hammer of Justice. This was done solely so that Protection paladins wouldn't feel like they couldn't tank mobs that needed to be interrupted but were stun immune. We just think that interrupt capability crosses over the line into something that a tank needs to do his job.
Dammit...does that mean we should consider Improved Hammer of Justice now?
It's looking like it. It's not a big deal, most Paladins went 2/2 DG, 1/5 Reck or 3/5 Reck. Just swap those points into it.
But, but I love my own Windfury.
Joking aside yeah I forgot about those "wasted" points.
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited September 2008
Ha! It also means that I can stun a dude that is casting, and if he trinkets out of it, HE IS STILL FUCKED
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
* Fanaticism critical strike chance of all Judgements capable of a critical hit reduced to 4/8/12/16/20% (Down from 5/10/15/20/25%).
* Two-Handed Weapon Specialization now increases your damage with 2H weapons by 1/2/3%. (Down from 2/4/6%)
The problem is because Paladins use mana as their energy mechanic there's nothing stopping them front loading a Judgement, CS, DS combo, where as a Warrior/Rogue/Death Knight is limited by their mechanics so they have to stagger their attacks. It's pretty much impossible to lower Ret's burst without damaging the sustained damage.
It did not lower PvP burst damage. A 0/10(20)/51 PvP build will not get fanaticism and will get crusade instead of 2h spec if they were not already.
As for it being impossible to lower burst -- how about making JoC do something PvP utility related? And while they're at it, don't add silly glyphs like +CS damage on stuns.
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited September 2008
It is the most hilarious of pics.
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Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Sorry, that title is reserved for the foot canser pic.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited September 2008
I think I'm finally over this whole bullshit of paladins taking more damage than warriors.
I went and crunched the numbers myself ( and by that, I mean I took the numbers from Maintankadin, went over them and confirmed that they were correct), and both on Live and on beta, Warriors overall take less damage than paladins.
I am currently levelling a pair of rogues with a mate, his is 58 and mine is 59, using recruit a friend. We are rerolling a new pair of toons tonight and I think mine will be a warrior which I will take to 80 first, unless something drastically changes between now and then.
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ThomamelasOnly one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered Userregular
I think I'm finally over this whole bullshit of paladins taking more damage than warriors.
I went and crunched the numbers myself ( and by that, I mean I took the numbers from Maintankadin, went over them and confirmed that they were correct), and both on Live and on beta, Warriors overall take less damage than paladins.
I am currently levelling a pair of rogues with a mate, his is 58 and mine is 59, using recruit a friend. We are rerolling a new pair of toons tonight and I think mine will be a warrior which I will take to 80 first, unless something drastically changes between now and then.
Very few problems are solved by running away like a little girl. However faking running away like a little girl and leading someone into an ambush can solve many problems.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited September 2008
Everytime I log into Beta I submit feedback about the differences.
To be honest, the main reason why I didn't reroll as a warrior tank a long time ago is because I knew how much trouble they had in instances, and I didn't want to go through the 5man/heroic grind to gear up without having the luxury of easymoding it as a paladin through all the heroics.
Warriors are currently overall better tanks for raid bosses, all else being equal. Obviously, it is better to use me as a tank than a lesser-geared warrior, but given similar gear on both, the warrior will do better now, and if something doesnt change in the expansion, will do better in the future.
I am no longer willing to be a paladin tank and be given a raid spot because I am a good tank, but still have the warrior ( who is equally skilled to me) given the boss tank job, because his class makes him better.
Yes, paladins CAN tank bosses now, and yes, they CAN tank them in the expansion, and will be able to do a perfectly fine job.
I am no longer content with perfectly fine.
Dhalphir on
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ThomamelasOnly one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered Userregular
Everytime I log into Beta I submit feedback about the differences.
To be honest, the main reason why I didn't reroll as a warrior tank a long time ago is because I knew how much trouble they had in instances, and I didn't want to go through the 5man/heroic grind to gear up without having the luxury of easymoding it as a paladin through all the heroics.
Warriors are currently overall better tanks for raid bosses, all else being equal. Obviously, it is better to use me as a tank than a lesser-geared warrior, but given similar gear on both, the warrior will do better now, and if something doesnt change in the expansion, will do better in the future.
I am no longer willing to be a paladin tank and be given a raid spot because I am a good tank, but still have the warrior ( who is equally skilled to me) given the boss tank job, because his class makes him better.
Yes, paladins CAN tank bosses now, and yes, they CAN tank them in the expansion, and will be able to do a perfectly fine job.
I am no longer content with perfectly fine.
I never said anything about being content with the status quo.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited September 2008
Oh I know, that was merely a generic followon rant to the previous post not something particularly directed at you.
People tend to notice that I have a bit of a chip on my shoulder about paladin tanks. Well, when the only reason I tank bosses is because our warrior main tank is a fantastic guy and knows how much hard work I put into my character, so he steps aside for many bosses, can that chip really be so surprising?
The main thing that hurts more, though, is that no matter how hard I work, how many hours I spend examining my gear, i can't do anything about it!
Yes, I have a chip on my shoulder about paladin tanking. Maybe the difference is only a few % points. However, if that difference exists, and you have two people with equal skill, one a warrior, and one a paladin, as we have in my guild, it becomes a situation where that few % is what decides who tanks the boss.
So as someone who's never raided as prot on any of my Paladins, what aside from a fear break, the 10% weaker Shield Wall and the longer cooldown (but more effective) Last Stand makes you feel like you're missing out by not being on your Warrior when tanking raid bosses? Stupid mechanics (AOE silences, etc.) aside.
edit: you may have just answered my question in the post above, must refresh more!
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited September 2008
Lack of an interrupt (which has been addressed, although not in the fashion I would have liked)
Overall poorer threat in Live at the content level we are doing, although I can rectify this by going 40/21 and destroying our warrior on the threat meters. Remains to be seen how my threat will be at 80 endgame raiding.
The main thing, though, is that there are hard numbers which say warriors take less damage, and not to mention the fact that their tier gear in Naxxramas has more of everything that a tank requires.
I'm not a big fan of the interrupt on HOJ either, they basicly just added three points to my build for a still crappy spell.
Threat and survivability don't worry me as much right now, because they're still doing numbers passes and they say the numbers are the easiest stuff for them to tweak when the mechanics are sorted out, and us sharing gear will probably make it alot easier for them to balance Warrior and Paladin gains from the same item.
Right now I'm just anxious to see what (if any) 11pt talent we get, and I kind of wish they'd just get rid of kings now, or change the current talents to "Your blessings also increase all the stats of the target by 2/4/6/8/10%" It kind of sucks spending 5 points on a Blessing which you may not even benefit from if you're the only Paladin in the raid.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited September 2008
Oh, and I also dislike not having Spell Reflect, fear immunity.
The other two main things that I INTENSELY dislike, are the fact that they get a gun slot which can hold a gun with a lot of stamina (30-40 in some cases) and defensive stats (28 dodge rating on the Rifle of the Stoic Guardian, for example), while we get either, a block rating Libram for EZ-Uncrush for beginners, or 94 more spellpower on Seal of Righteousness, and the ~1200 base HP gap
The base HP gap isn't that big a deal, also warriors only get +6% stamina from talents compared to a prot paladins +12%.
You're right about damage reduction though, I really think Imp Rightous Fury should be -10% damage taken instead of -6%.
Guarded by the Light should make SotR interrupt spell casting instead of reducing mana, although I think this would also call for increasing it's CD to 10 seconds (they can adjust it's threat/damage to make it the same TPS).
Other than that though, I don't really want them to be made the same. I'm fine with warriors being slightly better at a single large target tanking because i'm better at multiple target tanking. I don't want all the classes to be equal in their roles, they should have strengths and weaknesses. If the problem is that prot warriors were better at everything than prot paladins then you have an issue.
They should be different though, even if its as simple as having one class be slightly better at tanking casters and the other being slightly better at tanking melee.
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Warriors also have a higher base benefit from stam than we do. Thats why that 10% more from combat expertise was originally implemented was to close the stam gap between warriors and paladins.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited September 2008
thats incorrect, warriors get 10 hp per stamina untalented, same as us.
the 10% from Combat Expertise was intended to close the gap between base health of a warrior and base health of a paladin. However, scaling percentages are the wrong way to do this, as it meant that paladins scaled PAST warriors after a certain point.
they have reduced this scaling, and increased warrior scaling by 1%, leaving us getting 12% and them getting 6%, however they have not increased base HP to compensate.
But they don't need to, since our stamina scales better.
6% additional benefit will easily pass a gap of 1200 with the amount of stamina on level 80 items. Increasing base hp would also give paladin healers/dps more hp than they're balanced to have.
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ThomamelasOnly one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered Userregular
Other than that though, I don't really want them to be made the same. I'm fine with warriors being slightly better at a single large target tanking because i'm better at multiple target tanking. .
If tanks vary in their ability to single target tank, the lesser tanks will be forced into an OT role. It's the current situation, and one they are attempting to address.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited September 2008
even if the difference is 1%, if people know the difference exists, then given equal opportunity to take either type of take, even if the difference is so tiny its insignificant, if the difference is there i will be exploited
Oh, and I also dislike not having Spell Reflect, fear immunity.
The other two main things that I INTENSELY dislike, are the fact that they get a gun slot which can hold a gun with a lot of stamina (30-40 in some cases) and defensive stats (28 dodge rating on the Rifle of the Stoic Guardian, for example), while we get either, a block rating Libram for EZ-Uncrush for beginners, or 94 more spellpower on Seal of Righteousness, and the ~1200 base HP gap
I agree with you
Trying to tank Kael in magister's and Shaffar in mana tombs as a paladin is near impossible compared to a warrior
Oh, and I also dislike not having Spell Reflect, fear immunity.
The other two main things that I INTENSELY dislike, are the fact that they get a gun slot which can hold a gun with a lot of stamina (30-40 in some cases) and defensive stats (28 dodge rating on the Rifle of the Stoic Guardian, for example), while we get either, a block rating Libram for EZ-Uncrush for beginners, or 94 more spellpower on Seal of Righteousness, and the ~1200 base HP gap
I agree with you
Trying to tank Kael in magister's and Shaffar in mana tombs as a paladin is near impossible compared to a warrior
Oh, and I also dislike not having Spell Reflect, fear immunity.
The other two main things that I INTENSELY dislike, are the fact that they get a gun slot which can hold a gun with a lot of stamina (30-40 in some cases) and defensive stats (28 dodge rating on the Rifle of the Stoic Guardian, for example), while we get either, a block rating Libram for EZ-Uncrush for beginners, or 94 more spellpower on Seal of Righteousness, and the ~1200 base HP gap
I agree with you
Trying to tank Kael in magister's and Shaffar in mana tombs as a paladin is near impossible compared to a warrior
Er...why?
Heroic
Kael and his Pyroblast killed my paladin so easy the other day
Then I went to a mana tomb heroic run
I will blame the shaman healer on both though because he would either heal everyone else or just me
Oh, and I also dislike not having Spell Reflect, fear immunity.
The other two main things that I INTENSELY dislike, are the fact that they get a gun slot which can hold a gun with a lot of stamina (30-40 in some cases) and defensive stats (28 dodge rating on the Rifle of the Stoic Guardian, for example), while we get either, a block rating Libram for EZ-Uncrush for beginners, or 94 more spellpower on Seal of Righteousness, and the ~1200 base HP gap
I agree with you
Trying to tank Kael in magister's and Shaffar in mana tombs as a paladin is near impossible compared to a warrior
Er...why?
Heroic
Kael and his Pyroblast killed my paladin so easy the other day
Then I went to a mana tomb heroic run
I will blame the shaman healer on both though because he would either heal everyone else or just me
Shaffar is more of a retard check for the DPS than anything, and you can cleanse yourself out of frost nova to keep threat up on him. For Kael, just wait for his Pyroblast to hit like 90% cast time and then bubble, then remove it. If you have a bubble macro that cancels it, this is even easier. I have never been hit by pyroblast as a pally tank on Kael.
I obviously haven't crunched any numbers, but our resident pally tank was always at the top of a list of possible tanks for a boss. Obviously, certain bosses were better for warrior tanks, while others were better for the pally, and still others were good for the druid. Not one of them ever gave us any sort of subpar threat generation. I haven't seen anything of pally tanking on the beta (other than three-manning Heroic Mech with one the other night), so I don't know how it compares, but on Live, I don't get the frustration.
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
If you go 3/3 stoicism, I'd reccomend going 2/3 santified seals. Your seals will still come up for dispel against dispel spammers, but they will only go down 4% of the time. And it works out to only a 1% loss in DPS. I'd take a point in E4E if you are doing PvP, and I'd also assume that every warrior is going to take booming voice, and I personally don't like taking talents that someone else will likely have and provide no direct benefit otherwise.
You could probably go 2/2 E4E and either get 1 in imp ret aura or 1 in kings, for those rare occasions where all your other buffs are covered (since we only have two blessings now, this will happen more than you think)
EDIT: And getting 2h-spec over crusade is balls retarded right now. Crusade provides 3% boost minimum and a 6% boost ideally, whereas 2h-spec only offers 3% damage boost.
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
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I HAVE DEFEATED ALL THAT HAVE COME FORTH
MUNKUS USES AVENGING WRATH
MUNKUS' SASS CRITS FORUMS FOR A LOT OF SARCASM POINTS
Dammit...does that mean we should consider Improved Hammer of Justice now?
It's looking like it. It's not a big deal, most Paladins went 2/2 DG, 1/5 Reck or 3/5 Reck. Just swap those points into it.
But, but I love my own Windfury.
Joking aside yeah I forgot about those "wasted" points.
Aside from tanking and what munkus mentioned, it also allows paladins to be backups for interrupt fights.
We don't know yet. All we have is Ghostcrawlers post that we have it. I assume we'll see it in a future build.
This is troubling for PvE.
As for it being impossible to lower burst -- how about making JoC do something PvP utility related? And while they're at it, don't add silly glyphs like +CS damage on stuns.
Deep down I new this pic would come up again.
Sorry, that title is reserved for the foot canser pic.
I went and crunched the numbers myself ( and by that, I mean I took the numbers from Maintankadin, went over them and confirmed that they were correct), and both on Live and on beta, Warriors overall take less damage than paladins.
I am currently levelling a pair of rogues with a mate, his is 58 and mine is 59, using recruit a friend. We are rerolling a new pair of toons tonight and I think mine will be a warrior which I will take to 80 first, unless something drastically changes between now and then.
Very few problems are solved by running away like a little girl. However faking running away like a little girl and leading someone into an ambush can solve many problems.
To be honest, the main reason why I didn't reroll as a warrior tank a long time ago is because I knew how much trouble they had in instances, and I didn't want to go through the 5man/heroic grind to gear up without having the luxury of easymoding it as a paladin through all the heroics.
Warriors are currently overall better tanks for raid bosses, all else being equal. Obviously, it is better to use me as a tank than a lesser-geared warrior, but given similar gear on both, the warrior will do better now, and if something doesnt change in the expansion, will do better in the future.
I am no longer willing to be a paladin tank and be given a raid spot because I am a good tank, but still have the warrior ( who is equally skilled to me) given the boss tank job, because his class makes him better.
Yes, paladins CAN tank bosses now, and yes, they CAN tank them in the expansion, and will be able to do a perfectly fine job.
I am no longer content with perfectly fine.
I never said anything about being content with the status quo.
People tend to notice that I have a bit of a chip on my shoulder about paladin tanks. Well, when the only reason I tank bosses is because our warrior main tank is a fantastic guy and knows how much hard work I put into my character, so he steps aside for many bosses, can that chip really be so surprising?
The main thing that hurts more, though, is that no matter how hard I work, how many hours I spend examining my gear, i can't do anything about it!
Yes, I have a chip on my shoulder about paladin tanking. Maybe the difference is only a few % points. However, if that difference exists, and you have two people with equal skill, one a warrior, and one a paladin, as we have in my guild, it becomes a situation where that few % is what decides who tanks the boss.
edit: you may have just answered my question in the post above, must refresh more!
Overall poorer threat in Live at the content level we are doing, although I can rectify this by going 40/21 and destroying our warrior on the threat meters. Remains to be seen how my threat will be at 80 endgame raiding.
The main thing, though, is that there are hard numbers which say warriors take less damage, and not to mention the fact that their tier gear in Naxxramas has more of everything that a tank requires.
Threat and survivability don't worry me as much right now, because they're still doing numbers passes and they say the numbers are the easiest stuff for them to tweak when the mechanics are sorted out, and us sharing gear will probably make it alot easier for them to balance Warrior and Paladin gains from the same item.
Right now I'm just anxious to see what (if any) 11pt talent we get, and I kind of wish they'd just get rid of kings now, or change the current talents to "Your blessings also increase all the stats of the target by 2/4/6/8/10%" It kind of sucks spending 5 points on a Blessing which you may not even benefit from if you're the only Paladin in the raid.
The other two main things that I INTENSELY dislike, are the fact that they get a gun slot which can hold a gun with a lot of stamina (30-40 in some cases) and defensive stats (28 dodge rating on the Rifle of the Stoic Guardian, for example), while we get either, a block rating Libram for EZ-Uncrush for beginners, or 94 more spellpower on Seal of Righteousness, and the ~1200 base HP gap
You're right about damage reduction though, I really think Imp Rightous Fury should be -10% damage taken instead of -6%.
Guarded by the Light should make SotR interrupt spell casting instead of reducing mana, although I think this would also call for increasing it's CD to 10 seconds (they can adjust it's threat/damage to make it the same TPS).
Other than that though, I don't really want them to be made the same. I'm fine with warriors being slightly better at a single large target tanking because i'm better at multiple target tanking. I don't want all the classes to be equal in their roles, they should have strengths and weaknesses. If the problem is that prot warriors were better at everything than prot paladins then you have an issue.
They should be different though, even if its as simple as having one class be slightly better at tanking casters and the other being slightly better at tanking melee.
the 10% from Combat Expertise was intended to close the gap between base health of a warrior and base health of a paladin. However, scaling percentages are the wrong way to do this, as it meant that paladins scaled PAST warriors after a certain point.
they have reduced this scaling, and increased warrior scaling by 1%, leaving us getting 12% and them getting 6%, however they have not increased base HP to compensate.
6% additional benefit will easily pass a gap of 1200 with the amount of stamina on level 80 items. Increasing base hp would also give paladin healers/dps more hp than they're balanced to have.
If tanks vary in their ability to single target tank, the lesser tanks will be forced into an OT role. It's the current situation, and one they are attempting to address.
I agree with you
Trying to tank Kael in magister's and Shaffar in mana tombs as a paladin is near impossible compared to a warrior
Er...why?
Heroic
Kael and his Pyroblast killed my paladin so easy the other day
Then I went to a mana tomb heroic run
I will blame the shaman healer on both though because he would either heal everyone else or just me
Shaffar is more of a retard check for the DPS than anything, and you can cleanse yourself out of frost nova to keep threat up on him. For Kael, just wait for his Pyroblast to hit like 90% cast time and then bubble, then remove it. If you have a bubble macro that cancels it, this is even easier. I have never been hit by pyroblast as a pally tank on Kael.
Current build at 70 i'll be trying.
Level 80 build perhaps? Crusade is a static +6% damage on most enemies so that seemed nice, but really I was just throwing extra points around into random things...
Those look okay?
If you go 3/3 stoicism, I'd reccomend going 2/3 santified seals. Your seals will still come up for dispel against dispel spammers, but they will only go down 4% of the time. And it works out to only a 1% loss in DPS. I'd take a point in E4E if you are doing PvP, and I'd also assume that every warrior is going to take booming voice, and I personally don't like taking talents that someone else will likely have and provide no direct benefit otherwise.
You could probably go 2/2 E4E and either get 1 in imp ret aura or 1 in kings, for those rare occasions where all your other buffs are covered (since we only have two blessings now, this will happen more than you think)
EDIT: And getting 2h-spec over crusade is balls retarded right now. Crusade provides 3% boost minimum and a 6% boost ideally, whereas 2h-spec only offers 3% damage boost.