I still don't like that paladins are unique among the classes in that if they are not specced, they cannot do their job.
A Warrior at 0/0/0 can still deal damage with most of his skill intact (heroic strike, whirlwind)
Or can tank, with Sunder and Shield Block
A Druid can heal, he has all of his healing spells, Lifebloom, Rejuv, etc. Can tank. All with 0/0/0.
A paladin with 0/0/0 lacks the defining abilities of Ret, Crusader Strike, which basically limits him to autoattack + judge. If he's an Alliance paladin, he can't even use a damage seal, has to use Seal of Righteousness or something.
He lacks the defining abilities of Prot, Holy Shield and Avenger's Shield. He can basically Righteous Fury and Consecrate.
While he has the two base healin spells of holy, he lacks Holy Shock or Illumination, which one could argue are class defining abilities.
The general philosophy for all other classes seems to be, with a 0/0/0 spec, they can still do the job of any spec, using a recognizable rotation, but nowhere near well enough to be considered for a raid spot. A paladin with 0/0/0 might be able to do a Holy paladins job, but probably not a Prot paladin's job and certainly not a Ret paladin's job.
Thats not really true at all, especially for druids. All classes get important abilities/talents that are really required to do anything at a level even remotely approaching competence.
I still don't like that paladins are unique among the classes in that if they are not specced, they cannot do their job.
A Warrior at 0/0/0 can still deal damage with most of his skill intact (heroic strike, whirlwind)
Or can tank, with Sunder and Shield Block
A Druid can heal, he has all of his healing spells, Lifebloom, Rejuv, etc. Can tank. All with 0/0/0.
A paladin with 0/0/0 lacks the defining abilities of Ret, Crusader Strike, which basically limits him to autoattack + judge. If he's an Alliance paladin, he can't even use a damage seal, has to use Seal of Righteousness or something.
He lacks the defining abilities of Prot, Holy Shield and Avenger's Shield. He can basically Righteous Fury and Consecrate.
While he has the two base healin spells of holy, he lacks Holy Shock or Illumination, which one could argue are class defining abilities.
The general philosophy for all other classes seems to be, with a 0/0/0 spec, they can still do the job of any spec, using a recognizable rotation, but nowhere near well enough to be considered for a raid spot. A paladin with 0/0/0 might be able to do a Holy paladins job, but probably not a Prot paladin's job and certainly not a Ret paladin's job.
Thats not really true at all, especially for druids. All classes get important abilities/talents that are really required to do anything at a level even remotely approaching competence.
Perhaps I phrased that poorly, but, at its core, an unspecced druid will still heal with HoTs. A warrior will still Whirlwind and Heroic Strike. an Unspecced rogue will still slice and dice and rupture. An unspecced ret paladin, howeve,r is missing a key part of their rotation, which is Crusader Strike, and if they're Alliance, they can't DPS at all.
Wer'e going to buff Hammer of the Righteous. That should even out with the Shield of Righteousness nerf, plus give you a little more reason to hand that +spell power blade back to the warlock.
Yay!
815165 on
0
Options
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited September 2008
by buff i hope they also mean "give it a fucking animation already jesus christ"
i would like, for female blood elves at least, the animation that goes off when you Seal of Command proc or Crusader Strike while wielding a onehanded weapon, the kind of backwards flip where you spin and bring the weapon smashing down. That'd be sweet.
What is the best enchant for a ret pallies weapon once he has decent gear? Mongoose?
I use executioner on live so I can blow up cloth/leather. In 3.0, they changed armor pierce to a percentage so I am no longer sure.
Ultrachrist on
0
Options
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited September 2008
yeah i always loved how they made a big deal out of stuff like buffs scalin downwards if you placed them on a lower level character. kings itself scales as a buff, so a lowbie can cast it on a 70. funny.
You know those single player games out there, the ones that have you playing a God of War like Kratos or something, where you just run in and literally violate everything just by looking at it? That's what I feel like when playing Ret.
I still don't like that paladins are unique among the classes in that if they are not specced, they cannot do their job.
A Warrior at 0/0/0 can still deal damage with most of his skill intact (heroic strike, whirlwind)
Or can tank, with Sunder and Shield Block
A Druid can heal, he has all of his healing spells, Lifebloom, Rejuv, etc. Can tank. All with 0/0/0.
A paladin with 0/0/0 lacks the defining abilities of Ret, Crusader Strike, which basically limits him to autoattack + judge. If he's an Alliance paladin, he can't even use a damage seal, has to use Seal of Righteousness or something.
He lacks the defining abilities of Prot, Holy Shield and Avenger's Shield. He can basically Righteous Fury and Consecrate.
While he has the two base healin spells of holy, he lacks Holy Shock or Illumination, which one could argue are class defining abilities.
The general philosophy for all other classes seems to be, with a 0/0/0 spec, they can still do the job of any spec, using a recognizable rotation, but nowhere near well enough to be considered for a raid spot. A paladin with 0/0/0 might be able to do a Holy paladins job, but probably not a Prot paladin's job and certainly not a Ret paladin's job.
Thats not really true at all, especially for druids. All classes get important abilities/talents that are really required to do anything at a level even remotely approaching competence.
Perhaps I phrased that poorly, but, at its core, an unspecced druid will still heal with HoTs. A warrior will still Whirlwind and Heroic Strike. an Unspecced rogue will still slice and dice and rupture. An unspecced ret paladin, howeve,r is missing a key part of their rotation, which is Crusader Strike, and if they're Alliance, they can't DPS at all.
Seriously, just stop playing a pally please. You're whining about asinine things and it's honestly getting annoying. You're pissed off that one of 2 full hybrid classes actually has to spec into one of the jobs to do it? Last I checked, pallies have seals that deal damage, healing spells, and righteous fury right off the bat. That's DPS, heals, and tanking. You're trying to argue a raid rotation with an unspecced class, which fundamentally is flawed, since noone raids 0/0/0.
Basically what I'm getting from your posts, is that there should just be 4 classes - tanks, healers, ranged dps, and melee dps - since you seem to be angry that we all have our respective niches. I like being the AoE tank. I'm totally fine with a warrior being better at single target tanking since as prot that's all they have going for them. Same with Druids, being comparable to warriors, but having more damage mitigation than warriors and pallies. We all have our specific uses, and if you can't deal with it, roll something else.
Cokebotle on
工事中
0
Options
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited September 2008
Never tell anyone to stop playing their class just because you have a difference of opinion.
Dude was just making a point, a point that I feel is invalidated come WotLK, since pallies will get a shield slam mechanic and all three specs will be potent to a degree in something besides what they spec'd for.
We'll still be dependant on our 31, 41, and 51 pointers, but no more so than a warrior, druid, etc. etc.
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Never tell anyone to stop playing their class just because you have a difference of opinion.
Dude was just making a point, a point that I feel is invalidated come WotLK, since pallies will get a shield slam mechanic and all three specs will be potent to a degree in something besides what they spec'd for.
We'll still be dependant on our 31, 41, and 51 pointers, but no more so than a warrior, druid, etc. etc.
I understand, I just feel that he's been complaining a lot about paladins and (recently) talking about how he's rerolled a warrior simply because pallies take more damage and his class isn't as "good at tanking" as a warrior or a druid. And I just felt his reasoning that pallies being nerfed by Blizzard without spec'ing was kind of weak, and explained my opinion (after the rude comment).
I'm not trying to argue with you, and agree that it was worth an infraction, I just felt that I should point out my stance on it after having cooled down a bit. I honestly don't really post, as you can probably tell, but he's just been pissing me off recently and I kinda lost my cool, so to speak.
So yeah, sorry about that.
Cokebotle on
工事中
0
Options
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited September 2008
i'd be fine with being the AOE tank if the majority of encouners werent designed totally devoid of it
if every second boss had four or five mobs that couldnt be CCed but had to be controlled, i'd be happy with that.
Dhalphir on
0
Options
ThomamelasOnly one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered Userregular
i'd be fine with being the AOE tank if the majority of encouners werent designed totally devoid of it
if every second boss had four or five mobs that couldnt be CCed but had to be controlled, i'd be happy with that.
The "majority of encounters" are certainly not devoid of needing an AOE tank. Are you kidding me?
I play a warrior tank and let me tell you, not having a prot pally in a group for almost ANY instance is a pain in the ass. Off the top of my head:
Kara - AOE pulls throughout, Nightbane, can have 1 tank with no need for an off tank for the whole instance.
ZA - Trash to bird boss made trivial and not almost impossible (unless youre way overgeared for it), dragonhawk boss made trivial as well as trash to dragonhawk, trash to lynx boss made trivial.
SSC - Trash made easy (group em up and let warriors pull off), Morogrim Murlocs
TK - AOE trash pulls made easy (again), Alar adds easier to get to and control, aoe on solarian adds in phase 2. (Never done kael, so no idea about that)
MH - lawls pally tank
BT - (havent done much of that yet)
AND on top of all this - for fights where you only need one tank and you're not MT'ing? You can throw on a healing set and backup heal (which is very nice to have in many cases) when a warrior can throw on dps gear and MAYBE pull 600 dps.
Not to mention Naxx is the first raid instance in WOTLK where half the fights would be a cakewalk with aoe tanking. Yet you're rolling a warrior because of a 1% difference in tanking ability for single target mobs, I just dont get the hate. I wish I'd rolled a pally tank
Freakinchair on
I'd construct a situation such that everyone died at the exact same moment so that we could attack whatever afterlife there happens to be en masse and so take it over and create a perfect unending afterlife existence. Also, everyone who wanted one would have an afterlife pony.
i'd be fine with being the AOE tank if the majority of encouners werent designed totally devoid of it
if every second boss had four or five mobs that couldnt be CCed but had to be controlled, i'd be happy with that.
It would still be stupid. Having a niche means being stuck in that niche. And given the improvements to warrior AoE tanking, it should be a non-issue.
I guess I'm the only one who kind of likes the niche we're in.
I mean, the way I see it, if they make all tanks approximately equal, then what's the point of taking a paladin when a warrior/druid has enough AoE ability to take care of <boss battle> or <mob wave> without having to deal with being out of mana? (I know this is also fixed in Wrath, but still, my point kind of stands) Or why even bother bringing anything but prot pallies since the mana issue is kinda fixed and we also give full raid buffs on top of being AoE tanks? I can see it as a way to help filter in more tanks so raids have more options and to share the love of tanking around all the classes, but at the same time I still like being the de-facto AoE tank.
I still giggle a little when people ask about what marks I give CC in instances.
I guess I just wish that Blizzard would work on balancing the game more from a boss mechanic standpoint than a class standpoint. Not that I'm unhappy with the pally changes in Wrath. I mean, unbuffed I'm sitting at almost 600 spell damage and I've never set foot in anything higher than Kara on my pally. (badge gear ftw?)
Cokebotle on
工事中
0
Options
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited September 2008
I hear a recurring theme here.
TRASH TANK
ADDS TANK
I don't want to be a trash tank or an add tank, I want to be a main tank. I certainly didn't know paladins were inferior at single-target than warriors when I rolled one.
And Blizzard themslves have said they want all classes to be equal main tanks, so if their implementation leaves something to be desired, its up to us to tell them so.
Oh, and the fact that you can throw on a healing set and backup heal? Basically means that you will ALWAYS be doing that. Funnily enough, I rolled a tank, to tank, not heal.
And, on farm content, you don't need an extra healer, your heals wlll all be overheals, whereas more DPS is always great.
Dhalphir on
0
Options
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
i'd be fine with being the AOE tank if the majority of encouners werent designed totally devoid of it
if every second boss had four or five mobs that couldnt be CCed but had to be controlled, i'd be happy with that.
It would still be stupid. Having a niche means being stuck in that niche. And given the improvements to warrior AoE tanking, it should be a non-issue.
I guess I'm the only one who kind of likes the niche we're in.
I mean, the way I see it, if they make all tanks approximately equal, then what's the point of taking a paladin when a warrior/druid has enough AoE ability to take care of <boss battle> or <mob wave> without having to deal with being out of mana? (I know this is also fixed in Wrath, but still, my point kind of stands) Or why even bother bringing anything but prot pallies since the mana issue is kinda fixed and we also give full raid buffs on top of being AoE tanks? I can see it as a way to help filter in more tanks so raids have more options and to share the love of tanking around all the classes, but at the same time I still like being the de-facto AoE tank.
I still giggle a little when people ask about what marks I give CC in instances.
I guess I just wish that Blizzard would work on balancing the game more from a boss mechanic standpoint than a class standpoint. Not that I'm unhappy with the pally changes in Wrath. I mean, unbuffed I'm sitting at almost 600 spell damage and I've never set foot in anything higher than Kara on my pally. (badge gear ftw?)
The point, if all tanks are equal, is that you select your tanks based on skill and the player, not class.
i'd be fine with being the AOE tank if the majority of encouners werent designed totally devoid of it
if every second boss had four or five mobs that couldnt be CCed but had to be controlled, i'd be happy with that.
The "majority of encounters" are certainly not devoid of needing an AOE tank. Are you kidding me?
Most of the things you mentioned are just trash, not boss encounters.
I think what alot of people are looking for is to be just as good (or very close) to Warriors on the majority of boss fights (ie: one big hitting mob). I think this is pretty much achieved (stupid mechanics aside - though they've confirmed they're not intending to silence or mana burn tanks anymore) in the beta so far.
815165 on
0
Options
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited September 2008
but not close enough.
basically, if there is a 2% difference in ability between paladins nd warriors, as soon as that difference is noticed, there goes paladin main tanks again.
I would be fine wit hwarriors having more HP, if I had more avoidance, or could block more. However, warriors have more HP, more avoidance, mitigate more damage, and block for more.
They are better in everything that counts, AND they have history on their side.
i'd be fine with being the AOE tank if the majority of encouners werent designed totally devoid of it
if every second boss had four or five mobs that couldnt be CCed but had to be controlled, i'd be happy with that.
The "majority of encounters" are certainly not devoid of needing an AOE tank. Are you kidding me?
I play a warrior tank and let me tell you, not having a prot pally in a group for almost ANY instance is a pain in the ass. Off the top of my head:
Kara - AOE pulls throughout, Nightbane, can have 1 tank with no need for an off tank for the whole instance.
ZA - Trash to bird boss made trivial and not almost impossible (unless youre way overgeared for it), dragonhawk boss made trivial as well as trash to dragonhawk, trash to lynx boss made trivial.
SSC - Trash made easy (group em up and let warriors pull off), Morogrim Murlocs
TK - AOE trash pulls made easy (again), Alar adds easier to get to and control, aoe on solarian adds in phase 2. (Never done kael, so no idea about that)
MH - lawls pally tank
BT - (havent done much of that yet)
AND on top of all this - for fights where you only need one tank and you're not MT'ing? You can throw on a healing set and backup heal (which is very nice to have in many cases) when a warrior can throw on dps gear and MAYBE pull 600 dps.
Not to mention Naxx is the first raid instance in WOTLK where half the fights would be a cakewalk with aoe tanking. Yet you're rolling a warrior because of a 1% difference in tanking ability for single target mobs, I just dont get the hate. I wish I'd rolled a pally tank
Kara still needs an occasional offtank (Moroes and the ushers for when you get CC'ed, and Netherspite since you can't take 2 red beams in a row) but otherwise all correct.
I know in BT my guild went from getting Naj/Shade/Supremus/Gorefiend and maybe BB down in one night to getting everything through Mother cleared when we started doing the pally tank chainpull.
EDIT: For boss encounters, in BT I'm used for tanking Naj (since the warrior can do more DPS), Supremus (since I can frontload aggro after he comes out of the kite phase and for some reason I don't eat the hatefuls), Shade (the "middle adds", the ones that come directly after Akama), and Phases 1 and 3 for RoS (phase 1 any tank will do, phase 3 apparently my taunt doesn't cause seethe if it gets resisted early on and the effects on my mana are much less than what happens to the warrior).
On a different tangent: Is there a setting in Pallypower that allows you to change settings while in combat, or allow more than one pally to have the same blessings? I was having trouble last night getting stuff set after BB on the way to RoS since we were constantly in combat and went from 4 pallies down to 2.
basically, if there is a 2% difference in ability between paladins nd warriors, as soon as that difference is noticed, there goes paladin main tanks again.
I would be fine wit hwarriors having more HP, if I had more avoidance, or could block more. However, warriors have more HP, more avoidance, mitigate more damage, and block for more.
They are better in everything that counts, AND they have history on their side.
Maybe you're playing with the wrong people then, because that kind of stuff doesn't matter to the group of people I play with (we've had a Paladin MT for the past few months on live), and now that they've dropped the policy of fight X requiring Y class thats even less of a problem.
i'd be fine with being the AOE tank if the majority of encouners werent designed totally devoid of it
if every second boss had four or five mobs that couldnt be CCed but had to be controlled, i'd be happy with that.
It would still be stupid. Having a niche means being stuck in that niche. And given the improvements to warrior AoE tanking, it should be a non-issue.
I guess I'm the only one who kind of likes the niche we're in.
I mean, the way I see it, if they make all tanks approximately equal, then what's the point of taking a paladin when a warrior/druid has enough AoE ability to take care of <boss battle> or <mob wave> without having to deal with being out of mana? (I know this is also fixed in Wrath, but still, my point kind of stands) Or why even bother bringing anything but prot pallies since the mana issue is kinda fixed and we also give full raid buffs on top of being AoE tanks? I can see it as a way to help filter in more tanks so raids have more options and to share the love of tanking around all the classes, but at the same time I still like being the de-facto AoE tank.
I still giggle a little when people ask about what marks I give CC in instances.
I guess I just wish that Blizzard would work on balancing the game more from a boss mechanic standpoint than a class standpoint. Not that I'm unhappy with the pally changes in Wrath. I mean, unbuffed I'm sitting at almost 600 spell damage and I've never set foot in anything higher than Kara on my pally. (badge gear ftw?)
The point, if all tanks are equal, is that you select your tanks based on skill and the player, not class.
That would be great. However, making AoE tanking easy on all classes doesn't help filter out the bad tanking players from the good tanking players. It just makes tanking in general easier and harder to tell who the "good players" are from the "bad players".
Also, I kinda agree with 815165, too. Your mileage varies with the people you run with.
Cokebotle on
工事中
0
Options
ThomamelasOnly one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered Userregular
[
I guess I'm the only one who kind of likes the niche we're in.
I mean, the way I see it, if they make all tanks approximately equal, then what's the point of taking a paladin when a warrior/druid has enough AoE ability to take care of <boss battle> or <mob wave> without having to deal with being out of mana? (I know this is also fixed in Wrath, but still, my point kind of stands) Or why even bother bringing anything but prot pallies since the mana issue is kinda fixed and we also give full raid buffs on top of being AoE tanks? I can see it as a way to help filter in more tanks so raids have more options and to share the love of tanking around all the classes, but at the same time I still like being the de-facto AoE tank.
I still giggle a little when people ask about what marks I give CC in instances.
I guess I just wish that Blizzard would work on balancing the game more from a boss mechanic standpoint than a class standpoint. Not that I'm unhappy with the pally changes in Wrath. I mean, unbuffed I'm sitting at almost 600 spell damage and I've never set foot in anything higher than Kara on my pally. (badge gear ftw?)
Yes, you are the only one who sees it that way. It's extremely frustrating to have spent time proving we could tank at all, only to be stopped well short of the brass ring. Why should we settle for a limited utility niche role that hasn't worked out for us? Do you really think that simpering on the sidelines, grateful for tiny scraps that get tossed to us?
I mean, the way I see it, if they make all tanks approximately equal, then what's the point of taking a paladin when a warrior/druid has enough AoE ability to take care of <boss battle> or <mob wave> without having to deal with being out of mana? (I know this is also fixed in Wrath, but still, my point kind of stands)
Your point only stands if we can't hold our own in a single target encounter. That's the fun part of the niche mentality. You're focused on why bring us at all if we can't fulfill a tiny niche, ignoring the fact that by not being stuck in that niche we can fulfill any of the tanking roles needed.
Thomamelas on
0
Options
ThomamelasOnly one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered Userregular
basically, if there is a 2% difference in ability between paladins nd warriors, as soon as that difference is noticed, there goes paladin main tanks again.
I would be fine wit hwarriors having more HP, if I had more avoidance, or could block more. However, warriors have more HP, more avoidance, mitigate more damage, and block for more.
They are better in everything that counts, AND they have history on their side.
Maybe you're playing with the wrong people then, because that kind of stuff doesn't matter to the group of people I play with (we've had a Paladin MT for the past few months on live), and now that they've dropped the policy of fight X requiring Y class thats even less of a problem.
It's not an issue in the guild I'm in. I've MTed progression fights. But that still doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of Paladins aren't in the position I'm in. They get stuck with the retarded "Well min-maxing guild X doesn't use Prot Paladins to MT, so there for they can't do the job." mentality that spreads through out the WoW world.
If we can't compete from a min-max stand point then the vast majority of Paladin tanks are going to be stuck in the back of the bus.
basically, if there is a 2% difference in ability between paladins nd warriors, as soon as that difference is noticed, there goes paladin main tanks again.
This is so fucking stupid and untrue that I want to punch you right in the dick. If your guild is that SUPERSRS find a new one and quit complaining. If you want to be identical to a Warrior, fucking reroll a Warrior then, jesus flying fucking christ. Wanting them to design you to be 100% the exact same as someone else requires the exact same talents and abilities. Stop being a goddamn moron and spouting this bullshit. Paladins are fine in WotLK, their mitigation and survivability is not so horrible that you'd bring some other tank 100% of the time no matter what, I don't give a fuck about your asinine number crunching tells you, Blizzard intends for everyone to be able to MT and they WILL BE ABLE TO, whether they're there or not right now is really fucking irrelevant since the game is two months away. There's a fucking dumbass complaining about every single tanking spec for every single class, and how OMG NO ONE WILL WANT ME AS A TANK!!! get over it.
basically, if there is a 2% difference in ability between paladins nd warriors, as soon as that difference is noticed, there goes paladin main tanks again.
This is so fucking stupid and untrue that I want to punch you right in the dick. If your guild is that SUPERSRS find a new one and quit complaining. If you want to be identical to a Warrior, fucking reroll a Warrior then, jesus flying fucking christ. Wanting them to design you to be 100% the exact same as someone else requires the exact same talents and abilities. Stop being a goddamn moron and spouting this bullshit. Paladins are fine in WotLK, their mitigation and survivability is not so horrible that you'd bring some other tank 100% of the time no matter what, I don't give a fuck about your asinine number crunching tells you, Blizzard intends for everyone to be able to MT and they WILL BE ABLE TO, whether they're there or not right now is really fucking irrelevant since the game is two months away. There's a fucking dumbass complaining about every single tanking spec for every single class, and how OMG NO ONE WILL WANT ME AS A TANK!!! get over it.
This was kind of what I was trying to say only... yeah, not quite like that.
basically, if there is a 2% difference in ability between paladins nd warriors, as soon as that difference is noticed, there goes paladin main tanks again.
This is so fucking stupid and untrue that I want to punch you right in the dick. If your guild is that SUPERSRS find a new one and quit complaining. If you want to be identical to a Warrior, fucking reroll a Warrior then, jesus flying fucking christ. Wanting them to design you to be 100% the exact same as someone else requires the exact same talents and abilities. Stop being a goddamn moron and spouting this bullshit. Paladins are fine in WotLK, their mitigation and survivability is not so horrible that you'd bring some other tank 100% of the time no matter what, I don't give a fuck about your asinine number crunching tells you, Blizzard intends for everyone to be able to MT and they WILL BE ABLE TO, whether they're there or not right now is really fucking irrelevant since the game is two months away. There's a fucking dumbass complaining about every single tanking spec for every single class, and how OMG NO ONE WILL WANT ME AS A TANK!!! get over it.
See this is it right here - Paladins can MT (our guild has a paladin MT) AND do aoe tanking atm and blizzard is balancing even more for WOTLK. I think you are going to be SERIOUSLY dissappointed with warrior tanking when you're watching other pally tanks be much much more useful in raids than you can ever be (other than that mystical 2% on the main bosses that I've yet to ever see make a difference)
Freakinchair on
I'd construct a situation such that everyone died at the exact same moment so that we could attack whatever afterlife there happens to be en masse and so take it over and create a perfect unending afterlife existence. Also, everyone who wanted one would have an afterlife pony.
0
Options
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited September 2008
Dhal, I think you are pretty off the mark on this whole 1-2% difference = the world bit.
Bottom line is that it is impossible to perfectly balance each class to be exactly equal to each other, and as long as no one tank has a distinct advantage or disadvantage while tanking, people are going to take A: the most skilled tanks and B: the tanks that are well liked as opposed to C: that one guy who is a warrior.
The biggest issue for people to get over is the 'set in their ways' idea that paladins aren't the best raid tanks. I think that that will be overcome soon enough, though. As GC said, in MC all paladins did was heal.
(If you honestly believe that 2% difference in tanking potential when at the best gear and best skill will cause guilds to dropkick their people willing to pally maintank, then you probably need to get your head examined.)
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
0
Options
ThomamelasOnly one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered Userregular
basically, if there is a 2% difference in ability between paladins nd warriors, as soon as that difference is noticed, there goes paladin main tanks again.
This is so fucking stupid and untrue that I want to punch you right in the dick. If your guild is that SUPERSRS find a new one and quit complaining. If you want to be identical to a Warrior, fucking reroll a Warrior then, jesus flying fucking christ. Wanting them to design you to be 100% the exact same as someone else requires the exact same talents and abilities. Stop being a goddamn moron and spouting this bullshit. Paladins are fine in WotLK, their mitigation and survivability is not so horrible that you'd bring some other tank 100% of the time no matter what, I don't give a fuck about your asinine number crunching tells you, Blizzard intends for everyone to be able to MT and they WILL BE ABLE TO, whether they're there or not right now is really fucking irrelevant since the game is two months away. There's a fucking dumbass complaining about every single tanking spec for every single class, and how OMG NO ONE WILL WANT ME AS A TANK!!! get over it.
What Blizzard intends and what ends up happening can be two different things. At the moment there is a problem with the amount of mitigation happening, and it's a fairly wide gap. If this is to be corrected, and we currently have the information to correct it, then people need to speak up. I know you don't like theorycrafting, and you've already established with BoL that if it goes against your beliefs your just going to ignore it.
If you don't like what Dalphir has to say, just put him on ignore. But a poorly thought out scream of a rant doesn't prove him wrong. But all the screaming in the world doesn't solve the perception issue. And if the perception issue is that the gap is wide (and will grow wider in the retelling) then it's going to screw many paladins out there. And guild shopping around at the mid to high end of raiding isn't feasible.
Dhal, I think you are pretty off the mark on this whole 1-2% difference = the world bit.
Bottom line is that it is impossible to perfectly balance each class to be exactly equal to each other, and as long as no one tank has a distinct advantage or disadvantage while tanking, people are going to take A: the most skilled tanks and B: the tanks that are well liked as opposed to C: that one guy who is a warrior.
The biggest issue for people to get over is the 'set in their ways' idea that paladins aren't the best raid tanks. I think that that will be overcome soon enough, though. As GC said, in MC all paladins did was heal.
(If you honestly believe that 2% difference in tanking potential when at the best gear and best skill will cause guilds to dropkick their people willing to pally maintank, then you probably need to get your head examined.)
The problem is that while the difference in avoidance, armor and health is around 1 to 2%, the effective health difference is closer to 5 to 10%. Which is a pretty significant gap. It's not quite the end of the world, but it definitely is large enough to take notice. And those numbers unfortunately don't take spell reflect into account, which for some fights is going to widen the gap even further. You'll never get true parity, but the current math against a baseline boss is a little wide.
Dalphir isn't communicating this very well and is frustrated which isn't helping. It's pretty easy to solve with changing certain formulas but after waiting so long, and to still have the ring just out of reach, it can be rather tiring.
Thomamelas on
0
Options
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited September 2008
I think that prot warriors are gonna be wanted for offtanks because of improved intervene spam....
...or would have been, but I just noticed that it reduces the threat on the target. WELL PLAYED BLIZZARD.
At any rate, they are going to be changing the health pools for all characters soon anyway, so there should be more balance and whatnot there.
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
I think "niche" roles are what keeps the game diverse. The problem is that these roles have to be equal in importance. If all tanks are created equal, then we're on the argument that the game is being harmoginized and boring. Its a double edged sword.
Arvo on
<<<Links to Armory
0
Options
ThomamelasOnly one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered Userregular
I think that prot warriors are gonna be wanted for offtanks because of improved intervene spam....
...or would have been, but I just noticed that it reduces the threat on the target. WELL PLAYED BLIZZARD.
At any rate, they are going to be changing the health pools for all characters soon anyway, so there should be more balance and whatnot there.
If the current TPS numbers stay the way they are, that still might be a valid strategy for handling enrages. The warrior might not spam it, but it could be a heads up play kind of situation. And we'll see if the health changes help. But they'd have to be pretty radical to close the gap.
I think that prot warriors are gonna be wanted for offtanks because of improved intervene spam....
...or would have been, but I just noticed that it reduces the threat on the target. WELL PLAYED BLIZZARD.
At any rate, they are going to be changing the health pools for all characters soon anyway, so there should be more balance and whatnot there.
That seemed too good to be true anyways. Although depending on the mitigation vs threat drop it could still be used. This should be in the warrior thread, sorry ><
In any case - im leveling a paladin through refer a friend - Are holy paladins getting any huge changes? I want to play a healer class when im bored of tanking.
Freakinchair on
I'd construct a situation such that everyone died at the exact same moment so that we could attack whatever afterlife there happens to be en masse and so take it over and create a perfect unending afterlife existence. Also, everyone who wanted one would have an afterlife pony.
I like the niche roles, but at the same time I don't think AoE tanking should of been the pally niche. I always believed ours should be the "porcupine" role. Were almost all our damage is done when the enemy hits us. I think it should be the opposite of the Druid tank. I'd go as far as saying to get rid of our ability to dodge the same way druids can't block. But give us significant damage reduction abilities. We should be the shield masters, druids the dodge masters, and wars would be the balance between them.
Thats my theory crafting at least.
Arvo on
<<<Links to Armory
0
Options
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited September 2008
the problem isnt the small difference between armor.
or the small difference between HP
or the small difference between avoidance
its that ALL THREE apply. we are universally worse at the job than a warrior, and it all adds up to combine into a big deal.
that said, i'm over the whole, omg reroll warrior idea, and will be staying a paladin for better or worse
Posts
Thats not really true at all, especially for druids. All classes get important abilities/talents that are really required to do anything at a level even remotely approaching competence.
i quite like having class defining abilities in the tree
otherwise paladins would feel too generic
Perhaps I phrased that poorly, but, at its core, an unspecced druid will still heal with HoTs. A warrior will still Whirlwind and Heroic Strike. an Unspecced rogue will still slice and dice and rupture. An unspecced ret paladin, howeve,r is missing a key part of their rotation, which is Crusader Strike, and if they're Alliance, they can't DPS at all.
i would like, for female blood elves at least, the animation that goes off when you Seal of Command proc or Crusader Strike while wielding a onehanded weapon, the kind of backwards flip where you spin and bring the weapon smashing down. That'd be sweet.
"need to get to 14 for kings"
I use executioner on live so I can blow up cloth/leather. In 3.0, they changed armor pierce to a percentage so I am no longer sure.
You know those single player games out there, the ones that have you playing a God of War like Kratos or something, where you just run in and literally violate everything just by looking at it? That's what I feel like when playing Ret.
I feel like a friggin' god among men.
Seriously, just stop playing a pally please. You're whining about asinine things and it's honestly getting annoying. You're pissed off that one of 2 full hybrid classes actually has to spec into one of the jobs to do it? Last I checked, pallies have seals that deal damage, healing spells, and righteous fury right off the bat. That's DPS, heals, and tanking. You're trying to argue a raid rotation with an unspecced class, which fundamentally is flawed, since noone raids 0/0/0.
Basically what I'm getting from your posts, is that there should just be 4 classes - tanks, healers, ranged dps, and melee dps - since you seem to be angry that we all have our respective niches. I like being the AoE tank. I'm totally fine with a warrior being better at single target tanking since as prot that's all they have going for them. Same with Druids, being comparable to warriors, but having more damage mitigation than warriors and pallies. We all have our specific uses, and if you can't deal with it, roll something else.
Dude was just making a point, a point that I feel is invalidated come WotLK, since pallies will get a shield slam mechanic and all three specs will be potent to a degree in something besides what they spec'd for.
We'll still be dependant on our 31, 41, and 51 pointers, but no more so than a warrior, druid, etc. etc.
I understand, I just feel that he's been complaining a lot about paladins and (recently) talking about how he's rerolled a warrior simply because pallies take more damage and his class isn't as "good at tanking" as a warrior or a druid. And I just felt his reasoning that pallies being nerfed by Blizzard without spec'ing was kind of weak, and explained my opinion (after the rude comment).
I'm not trying to argue with you, and agree that it was worth an infraction, I just felt that I should point out my stance on it after having cooled down a bit. I honestly don't really post, as you can probably tell, but he's just been pissing me off recently and I kinda lost my cool, so to speak.
So yeah, sorry about that.
if every second boss had four or five mobs that couldnt be CCed but had to be controlled, i'd be happy with that.
It would still be stupid. Having a niche means being stuck in that niche. And given the improvements to warrior AoE tanking, it should be a non-issue.
The "majority of encounters" are certainly not devoid of needing an AOE tank. Are you kidding me?
I play a warrior tank and let me tell you, not having a prot pally in a group for almost ANY instance is a pain in the ass. Off the top of my head:
Kara - AOE pulls throughout, Nightbane, can have 1 tank with no need for an off tank for the whole instance.
ZA - Trash to bird boss made trivial and not almost impossible (unless youre way overgeared for it), dragonhawk boss made trivial as well as trash to dragonhawk, trash to lynx boss made trivial.
SSC - Trash made easy (group em up and let warriors pull off), Morogrim Murlocs
TK - AOE trash pulls made easy (again), Alar adds easier to get to and control, aoe on solarian adds in phase 2. (Never done kael, so no idea about that)
MH - lawls pally tank
BT - (havent done much of that yet)
AND on top of all this - for fights where you only need one tank and you're not MT'ing? You can throw on a healing set and backup heal (which is very nice to have in many cases) when a warrior can throw on dps gear and MAYBE pull 600 dps.
Not to mention Naxx is the first raid instance in WOTLK where half the fights would be a cakewalk with aoe tanking. Yet you're rolling a warrior because of a 1% difference in tanking ability for single target mobs, I just dont get the hate. I wish I'd rolled a pally tank
I guess I'm the only one who kind of likes the niche we're in.
I mean, the way I see it, if they make all tanks approximately equal, then what's the point of taking a paladin when a warrior/druid has enough AoE ability to take care of <boss battle> or <mob wave> without having to deal with being out of mana? (I know this is also fixed in Wrath, but still, my point kind of stands) Or why even bother bringing anything but prot pallies since the mana issue is kinda fixed and we also give full raid buffs on top of being AoE tanks? I can see it as a way to help filter in more tanks so raids have more options and to share the love of tanking around all the classes, but at the same time I still like being the de-facto AoE tank.
I still giggle a little when people ask about what marks I give CC in instances.
I guess I just wish that Blizzard would work on balancing the game more from a boss mechanic standpoint than a class standpoint. Not that I'm unhappy with the pally changes in Wrath. I mean, unbuffed I'm sitting at almost 600 spell damage and I've never set foot in anything higher than Kara on my pally. (badge gear ftw?)
TRASH TANK
ADDS TANK
I don't want to be a trash tank or an add tank, I want to be a main tank. I certainly didn't know paladins were inferior at single-target than warriors when I rolled one.
And Blizzard themslves have said they want all classes to be equal main tanks, so if their implementation leaves something to be desired, its up to us to tell them so.
Oh, and the fact that you can throw on a healing set and backup heal? Basically means that you will ALWAYS be doing that. Funnily enough, I rolled a tank, to tank, not heal.
And, on farm content, you don't need an extra healer, your heals wlll all be overheals, whereas more DPS is always great.
The point, if all tanks are equal, is that you select your tanks based on skill and the player, not class.
I think what alot of people are looking for is to be just as good (or very close) to Warriors on the majority of boss fights (ie: one big hitting mob). I think this is pretty much achieved (stupid mechanics aside - though they've confirmed they're not intending to silence or mana burn tanks anymore) in the beta so far.
basically, if there is a 2% difference in ability between paladins nd warriors, as soon as that difference is noticed, there goes paladin main tanks again.
I would be fine wit hwarriors having more HP, if I had more avoidance, or could block more. However, warriors have more HP, more avoidance, mitigate more damage, and block for more.
They are better in everything that counts, AND they have history on their side.
Kara still needs an occasional offtank (Moroes and the ushers for when you get CC'ed, and Netherspite since you can't take 2 red beams in a row) but otherwise all correct.
I know in BT my guild went from getting Naj/Shade/Supremus/Gorefiend and maybe BB down in one night to getting everything through Mother cleared when we started doing the pally tank chainpull.
EDIT: For boss encounters, in BT I'm used for tanking Naj (since the warrior can do more DPS), Supremus (since I can frontload aggro after he comes out of the kite phase and for some reason I don't eat the hatefuls), Shade (the "middle adds", the ones that come directly after Akama), and Phases 1 and 3 for RoS (phase 1 any tank will do, phase 3 apparently my taunt doesn't cause seethe if it gets resisted early on and the effects on my mana are much less than what happens to the warrior).
On a different tangent: Is there a setting in Pallypower that allows you to change settings while in combat, or allow more than one pally to have the same blessings? I was having trouble last night getting stuff set after BB on the way to RoS since we were constantly in combat and went from 4 pallies down to 2.
That would be great. However, making AoE tanking easy on all classes doesn't help filter out the bad tanking players from the good tanking players. It just makes tanking in general easier and harder to tell who the "good players" are from the "bad players".
Also, I kinda agree with 815165, too. Your mileage varies with the people you run with.
Yes, you are the only one who sees it that way. It's extremely frustrating to have spent time proving we could tank at all, only to be stopped well short of the brass ring. Why should we settle for a limited utility niche role that hasn't worked out for us? Do you really think that simpering on the sidelines, grateful for tiny scraps that get tossed to us?
Your point only stands if we can't hold our own in a single target encounter. That's the fun part of the niche mentality. You're focused on why bring us at all if we can't fulfill a tiny niche, ignoring the fact that by not being stuck in that niche we can fulfill any of the tanking roles needed.
It's not an issue in the guild I'm in. I've MTed progression fights. But that still doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of Paladins aren't in the position I'm in. They get stuck with the retarded "Well min-maxing guild X doesn't use Prot Paladins to MT, so there for they can't do the job." mentality that spreads through out the WoW world.
If we can't compete from a min-max stand point then the vast majority of Paladin tanks are going to be stuck in the back of the bus.
This is so fucking stupid and untrue that I want to punch you right in the dick. If your guild is that SUPERSRS find a new one and quit complaining. If you want to be identical to a Warrior, fucking reroll a Warrior then, jesus flying fucking christ. Wanting them to design you to be 100% the exact same as someone else requires the exact same talents and abilities. Stop being a goddamn moron and spouting this bullshit. Paladins are fine in WotLK, their mitigation and survivability is not so horrible that you'd bring some other tank 100% of the time no matter what, I don't give a fuck about your asinine number crunching tells you, Blizzard intends for everyone to be able to MT and they WILL BE ABLE TO, whether they're there or not right now is really fucking irrelevant since the game is two months away. There's a fucking dumbass complaining about every single tanking spec for every single class, and how OMG NO ONE WILL WANT ME AS A TANK!!! get over it.
edit: maybe thats what happens to you free men
See this is it right here - Paladins can MT (our guild has a paladin MT) AND do aoe tanking atm and blizzard is balancing even more for WOTLK. I think you are going to be SERIOUSLY dissappointed with warrior tanking when you're watching other pally tanks be much much more useful in raids than you can ever be (other than that mystical 2% on the main bosses that I've yet to ever see make a difference)
Bottom line is that it is impossible to perfectly balance each class to be exactly equal to each other, and as long as no one tank has a distinct advantage or disadvantage while tanking, people are going to take A: the most skilled tanks and B: the tanks that are well liked as opposed to C: that one guy who is a warrior.
The biggest issue for people to get over is the 'set in their ways' idea that paladins aren't the best raid tanks. I think that that will be overcome soon enough, though. As GC said, in MC all paladins did was heal.
(If you honestly believe that 2% difference in tanking potential when at the best gear and best skill will cause guilds to dropkick their people willing to pally maintank, then you probably need to get your head examined.)
What Blizzard intends and what ends up happening can be two different things. At the moment there is a problem with the amount of mitigation happening, and it's a fairly wide gap. If this is to be corrected, and we currently have the information to correct it, then people need to speak up. I know you don't like theorycrafting, and you've already established with BoL that if it goes against your beliefs your just going to ignore it.
If you don't like what Dalphir has to say, just put him on ignore. But a poorly thought out scream of a rant doesn't prove him wrong. But all the screaming in the world doesn't solve the perception issue. And if the perception issue is that the gap is wide (and will grow wider in the retelling) then it's going to screw many paladins out there. And guild shopping around at the mid to high end of raiding isn't feasible.
The problem is that while the difference in avoidance, armor and health is around 1 to 2%, the effective health difference is closer to 5 to 10%. Which is a pretty significant gap. It's not quite the end of the world, but it definitely is large enough to take notice. And those numbers unfortunately don't take spell reflect into account, which for some fights is going to widen the gap even further. You'll never get true parity, but the current math against a baseline boss is a little wide.
Dalphir isn't communicating this very well and is frustrated which isn't helping. It's pretty easy to solve with changing certain formulas but after waiting so long, and to still have the ring just out of reach, it can be rather tiring.
...or would have been, but I just noticed that it reduces the threat on the target. WELL PLAYED BLIZZARD.
At any rate, they are going to be changing the health pools for all characters soon anyway, so there should be more balance and whatnot there.
If the current TPS numbers stay the way they are, that still might be a valid strategy for handling enrages. The warrior might not spam it, but it could be a heads up play kind of situation. And we'll see if the health changes help. But they'd have to be pretty radical to close the gap.
That seemed too good to be true anyways. Although depending on the mitigation vs threat drop it could still be used. This should be in the warrior thread, sorry ><
In any case - im leveling a paladin through refer a friend - Are holy paladins getting any huge changes? I want to play a healer class when im bored of tanking.
Thats my theory crafting at least.
or the small difference between HP
or the small difference between avoidance
its that ALL THREE apply. we are universally worse at the job than a warrior, and it all adds up to combine into a big deal.
that said, i'm over the whole, omg reroll warrior idea, and will be staying a paladin for better or worse